Hi, I am a new DM and also new to 5e. I have a fellow returning player who is a monk and wants to roleplay a vow of poverty. In 3.5 they had a feat you could take for "Vow of Poverty." I was fiddling around a little, and since feats are different, would it make more sense to make a new subclass for the player? A homebrew? I looked and they have 2 homebrew feats called vow of poverty. But I didnt see a subclass that was obviously what I am looking for. Should I make one from scratch or does anyone know of one? He is not a subscriber, so cant use others homebrews anyway. Also any name ideas for the subclass? I was thinking of "Way of the Poor Pilgrim."
There's no need for any kind of game mechanics for something like that, it's just a choice the player/character can make. If the character has the acolyte background it makes good sense but really any kind of pious person could take a vow of poverty.
Well Ive never played around a monk before. I will have to do some more research, but i think if they are going to live on under 50gp worth* of gear, they should get a higher ac, some benefits to accomodate for lack of healing potions and other magic items, and a attack die for damage that grows as they level, at least. It was a feat in 3.5 so its not like we came up with the idea. Have you played higher level characters? They are all geared to hell.
Well Ive never played around a monk before. I will have to do some more research, but i think if they are going to live on under 50gp worth* of gear, they should get a higher ac, some benefits to accomodate for lack of healing potions and other magic items, and a attack die for damage that grows as they level, at least. It was a feat in 3.5 so its not like we came up with the idea. Have you played higher level characters? They are all geared to hell.
Well, your first step should probably be to read the actual rules of the game then. Monks already gain bonuses to their AC and attack die, no need for any special poverty powers at all. Also, healing potions and magic items are optional. There is no rules that say that you have to include either.
In general, monks are already among the most powerful classes so there is no cause to boost them just because the monk player choses to roleplay a vow of poverty. If nothing else, that's just unfair to every other player who doesn't want to roleplay the same kind of vow since you'll be punishing them by not giving them extra powers.
Anyway, suitable rewards for roleplaying an adventurer taking a vow of poverty could be things like people liking them for their genorisity, offfering them frre food and lodging for their piety. Other people with similar vows might trade them information or give them hints to where there are good places to stay the night or where people are willing to share their food and clothes. Things like that.
Shouldnt they get benefits since they are forgoing magic items and possibly melee weapons?
No? Why should they? There is no inherent magic in the world that allows people to gain superpowers by being poor.
Also, monks don't need magic weapons (or really any weapons).
Perhaps the greatest influence behind the Monk class are martial artists associated with Shaolin Zen Buddhism, often depicted in media has having super-human strength, the ability to fly, unbreakable resolve and infinite wisdom. In Buddhist history, the Buddha on his journey to enlightenment second chose the path of poverty, relinquishing his claims to his family's great wealth. He lived so for a time, but then settled on what he called "the middle way" of living free from either poverty and material preoccupations. Monks today of many faiths take similar vows of rejecting material accumulation.
There's a Forgotten Realms deity , Ilmater, who's portfolio includes endurance, martyrdom, perseverance, and suffering. The Church of Ilmater is a religious organisation that includes clerics, paladins and monks (here be superpowers), which lends itself well to pursuing a monk with a more medieval christian aesthetic. The Forgotten Realms entry even goes as far as to list a number of monastic orders dedicated to Ilmater.
I'd say the above, and just the general idea that you should be free to craft whatever world you like together with you players/DM in DnD, is a pretty good basis to create a backstory for a Vow of Poverty Monk, whether roleplaying an existing subclass or creating an entirely new one.
Mechanics
The OP's friend might wish to take a look at the Way of Mercy monk, a new subclass to 5e that is described as such:
Monks of the Way of Mercy learn to manipulate the life force of others to bring aid to those in need. They are wandering physicians to the poor and hurt. However, to those beyond their help, they bring a swift end as an act of mercy.
Looking at how the Vow of Poverty works in 3.5, if you want the easy life of going with a pre-existing monk subclass you could consider offering your friend benefits in return for sacrificing mechanics that imply ownership: for every attunement slot they permanently forgo, they receive a +1 to all saving throws; by forgoing using melee weapons they gain a +1 enchantment to unarmed strikes; by forgoing using ranged weapons they gain a +1 to their base AC.
Shouldnt they get benefits since they are forgoing magic items and possibly melee weapons?
No? Why should they? There is no inherent magic in the world that allows people to gain superpowers by being poor.
Also, monks don't need magic weapons (or really any weapons).
Perhaps the greatest influence behind the Monk class are martial artists associated with Shaolin Zen Buddhism, often depicted in media has having super-human strength, the ability to fly, unbreakable resolve and infinite wisdom. In Buddhist history, the Buddha on his journey to enlightenment second chose the path of poverty, relinquishing his claims to his family's great wealth. He lived so for a time, but then settled on what he called "the middle way" of living free from either poverty and material preoccupations. Monks today of many faiths take similar vows of rejecting material accumulation.
Well, not really. D&D monks are more akin to anime superheroes or martial art films than anything from the real world, even if they do have some superficial similarities to some real world phenomena.
There's a Forgotten Realms deity , Ilmater, who's portfolio includes endurance, martyrdom, perseverance, and suffering. The Church of Ilmater is a religious organisation that includes clerics, paladins and monks (here be superpowers), which lends itself well to pursuing a monk with a more medieval christian aesthetic. The Forgotten Realms entry even goes as far as to list a number of monastic orders dedicated to Ilmater.
Simply worshipping Ilmater doesn't give you special powers though. Unless you play a cleric. Clerics and Monks do multiclass rather well together.
Shouldnt they get benefits since they are forgoing magic items and possibly melee weapons?
No? Why should they? There is no inherent magic in the world that allows people to gain superpowers by being poor.
Also, monks don't need magic weapons (or really any weapons).
Perhaps the greatest influence behind the Monk class are martial artists associated with Shaolin Zen Buddhism, often depicted in media has having super-human strength, the ability to fly, unbreakable resolve and infinite wisdom. In Buddhist history, the Buddha on his journey to enlightenment second chose the path of poverty, relinquishing his claims to his family's great wealth. He lived so for a time, but then settled on what he called "the middle way" of living free from either poverty and material preoccupations. Monks today of many faiths take similar vows of rejecting material accumulation.
Well, not really. D&D monks are more akin to anime superheroes or martial art films than anything from the real world, even if they do have some superficial similarities to some real world phenomena.
There's a Forgotten Realms deity , Ilmater, who's portfolio includes endurance, martyrdom, perseverance, and suffering. The Church of Ilmater is a religious organisation that includes clerics, paladins and monks (here be superpowers), which lends itself well to pursuing a monk with a more medieval christian aesthetic. The Forgotten Realms entry even goes as far as to list a number of monastic orders dedicated to Ilmater.
Simply worshipping Ilmater doesn't give you special powers though. Unless you play a cleric. Clerics and Monks do multiclass rather well together.
Good thing that there are no requirements for alcoholism for monk characters then. Nor any need for alcohol at all, even.
To that, I'd urge that the OP deserves a bit more than "Well, not really" as a counter-perspective on their objective of realising a Vow of Poverty monk!
The fact is that the mythos of romanticised martial artists such as kung-fu practitioners (Shaolin zen buddhists, remember), eastern philosophy, and modern cultural attitudes based on said eastern philosophy, serve as the very basis for anime superheroes and martial arts films as they have for the 5e Monk class – for many, WoTC's choice to title the class "Monk" might be enough to inform players that the class alludes to romantic imaginings of, well, monks. Aside from a slew of ascetic implications of the monk class, surely the choice to name the class's defining resource as 'Ki' might be enough to convince you that the class has a basis in eastern culture and philosophy, much like the same things have served as the basis for modern anime super heroes?
Do you think you can adequately explain why a rejection of material possession (a "Way of the Humble Palm" monk, if you will) can't serve as an ascetic basis that enables Ki-based abilities in 5e?
Not sure if the OP is familiar with the Legend of the Condor Heroes' Beggar King (Beggar North~translation) or any other Chinese Martial arts films with a Beggar Sect, but I would say that the Open Palm or Drunken Style already fit these types of Monk Perfectly. Any combat style of shiftiness would easily align with this approach, and the 3.5 Vow of Poverty is just another means of playing a MONK without being a MONK in 3.5. Your PC wanted to play a different class and gain benifits similar to the Vow of Poverty, then I think this would really just be multi-classing or taking feats that equate to certain aspects of a Monk, but a 5e Monk really gains similar benefits to the Vow of Poverty.
As everyone mentioned above, it would really just be a manner of role playing and having NPC's immediately have an opinion (usually a low opinion or non-threatening impression) of the PC without the need of trying to convince them who you are.
Your PC might be the a violent blood thirsty killer or wise old man, but you look like a beggar that could either slip under the radar or seen as non-threatening... no need to change how your class plays out mechanically, but just a simple appearance and behavior shift based on your background. I would say take an acolyte background or re-flavor customize the Haunted Background to suite the style of a Beggar.
also, I really wasn't a fan of the Vows were made available in 3.5, but the concept was pretty much similar to having a second class or race set. The issue came about when only 1-player had taken vows and noone else had.
Thank you for the help and info. We are playing in forgotten realms so that really helps.
Glad to help, conceptualising Monk subclass and RPs is a passion of mine. Keen to hear what your friend goes with, even if it's just a pre-existing subclass!
I'd like to point out that even the Begger Sect is known for a pair of magical item treasures. A gourd that has the power to create healing potions (medicine), and a magical stave (Dog Beating Staff).
have not had a peek at the rest of the thing but if i recall correctly the 3.5e feat was rather potent, giving you new features and most importantly new feats every new level with the caveat that a lot needed to be sacroficed to attain it, it gained a bunch of bonuses to compensate the loss of armor and magic items and generally it would be really hard to emulate in 5e
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I just want to say that in 3.5 and PF. The Vow's were a matter of giving up some kind of mechanical benefit of some kind to gain a different mechanical benefit. Often in the form of things like Extra Ki. But it was also in a game where minmaxing and certain levels of gear on top of certain levels of stats and skills was almost a requirement in the average game. So much so that you were actually expected to have certain levels of magical equipment on your characters when you reached certain tiers of play.
The closest that I can come to is the potential to pick up certain Homebrew boons that you can also accept certain drawbacks for but with the Caveat that if you violate the drawbacks you lose the boon forever and may or may not have some kind of limited punishment for doing so. And that you limit the amount of boons that they can have. These don't necessarily have to mechanically be feats. They could be teachings given as rewards or other non-tangeables in place of actual magic items or equipment for the character in some fashion. In return these boons might give some small bump to some nonstandard resource like an extra ki point, an extra die of healing if your open palm, or other things like that. You'd have to consider balance but for the steepest ones you might give it something like a +1 to their save DC or attack or something. But these get out of hand easily if your not careful depending on what you let them stack with.
Shouldnt they get benefits since they are forgoing magic items and possibly melee weapons?
No? Why should they? There is no inherent magic in the world that allows people to gain superpowers by being poor.
Also, monks don't need magic weapons (or really any weapons).
Perhaps the greatest influence behind the Monk class are martial artists associated with Shaolin Zen Buddhism, often depicted in media has having super-human strength, the ability to fly, unbreakable resolve and infinite wisdom. In Buddhist history, the Buddha on his journey to enlightenment second chose the path of poverty, relinquishing his claims to his family's great wealth. He lived so for a time, but then settled on what he called "the middle way" of living free from either poverty and material preoccupations. Monks today of many faiths take similar vows of rejecting material accumulation.
Well, not really. D&D monks are more akin to anime superheroes or martial art films than anything from the real world, even if they do have some superficial similarities to some real world phenomena.
There's a Forgotten Realms deity , Ilmater, who's portfolio includes endurance, martyrdom, perseverance, and suffering. The Church of Ilmater is a religious organisation that includes clerics, paladins and monks (here be superpowers), which lends itself well to pursuing a monk with a more medieval christian aesthetic. The Forgotten Realms entry even goes as far as to list a number of monastic orders dedicated to Ilmater.
Simply worshipping Ilmater doesn't give you special powers though. Unless you play a cleric. Clerics and Monks do multiclass rather well together.
Good thing that there are no requirements for alcoholism for monk characters then. Nor any need for alcohol at all, even.
To that, I'd urge that the OP deserves a bit more than "Well, not really" as a counter-perspective on their objective of realising a Vow of Poverty monk!
The fact is that the mythos of romanticised martial artists such as kung-fu practitioners (Shaolin zen buddhists, remember), eastern philosophy, and modern cultural attitudes based on said eastern philosophy, serve as the very basis for anime superheroes and martial arts films as they have for the 5e Monk class – for many, WoTC's choice to title the class "Monk" might be enough to inform players that the class alludes to romantic imaginings of, well, monks. Aside from a slew of ascetic implications of the monk class, surely the choice to name the class's defining resource as 'Ki' might be enough to convince you that the class has a basis in eastern culture and philosophy, much like the same things have served as the basis for modern anime super heroes?
Do you think you can adequately explain why a rejection of material possession (a "Way of the Humble Palm" monk, if you will) can't serve as an ascetic basis that enables Ki-based abilities in 5e?
Wow, you sure like taking this off topic. But I'll give you a short answer and hopefully you don't feel the need to derail this even further. The mentioned anime and martial arts film has about as much to do with actual Shaolin zen buddhist monks as the TV show "Vikings" as to do with actual Scandinavian 9th century culture. Pretty much nothing at all. Not sure what any of that has anything to do with the topic though so I'll just stay at that. Back OT, OP asked if a vow of poverty would grant super powers in the form of higher AC and a larger damage die. I merely pointed out that, according to the actual rules, such a vow neither does grant super powers nor is it really needed since the basic class abilities of the Monk already grants the asked for powers.
I just want to say thank you all, and that I really appreciate the community on this website. (even when cantankerous) I will let y'all know what my player and I decide on. I did find one subclass, a homebrew, on dandwiki called Way of the Beggar
Hi, I am a new DM and also new to 5e. I have a fellow returning player who is a monk and wants to roleplay a vow of poverty. In 3.5 they had a feat you could take for "Vow of Poverty." I was fiddling around a little, and since feats are different, would it make more sense to make a new subclass for the player? A homebrew? I looked and they have 2 homebrew feats called vow of poverty. But I didnt see a subclass that was obviously what I am looking for. Should I make one from scratch or does anyone know of one? He is not a subscriber, so cant use others homebrews anyway. Also any name ideas for the subclass? I was thinking of "Way of the Poor Pilgrim."
There's no need for any kind of game mechanics for something like that, it's just a choice the player/character can make. If the character has the acolyte background it makes good sense but really any kind of pious person could take a vow of poverty.
Shouldnt they get benefits since they are forgoing magic items and possibly melee weapons?
No? Why should they? There is no inherent magic in the world that allows people to gain superpowers by being poor.
Also, monks don't need magic weapons (or really any weapons).
Well Ive never played around a monk before. I will have to do some more research, but i think if they are going to live on under 50gp worth* of gear, they should get a higher ac, some benefits to accomodate for lack of healing potions and other magic items, and a attack die for damage that grows as they level, at least. It was a feat in 3.5 so its not like we came up with the idea. Have you played higher level characters? They are all geared to hell.
Well, your first step should probably be to read the actual rules of the game then. Monks already gain bonuses to their AC and attack die, no need for any special poverty powers at all. Also, healing potions and magic items are optional. There is no rules that say that you have to include either.
In general, monks are already among the most powerful classes so there is no cause to boost them just because the monk player choses to roleplay a vow of poverty. If nothing else, that's just unfair to every other player who doesn't want to roleplay the same kind of vow since you'll be punishing them by not giving them extra powers.
Anyway, suitable rewards for roleplaying an adventurer taking a vow of poverty could be things like people liking them for their genorisity, offfering them frre food and lodging for their piety. Other people with similar vows might trade them information or give them hints to where there are good places to stay the night or where people are willing to share their food and clothes. Things like that.
You are a nice person
Thank you.
Perhaps the greatest influence behind the Monk class are martial artists associated with Shaolin Zen Buddhism, often depicted in media has having super-human strength, the ability to fly, unbreakable resolve and infinite wisdom. In Buddhist history, the Buddha on his journey to enlightenment second chose the path of poverty, relinquishing his claims to his family's great wealth. He lived so for a time, but then settled on what he called "the middle way" of living free from either poverty and material preoccupations. Monks today of many faiths take similar vows of rejecting material accumulation.
There's a Forgotten Realms deity , Ilmater, who's portfolio includes endurance, martyrdom, perseverance, and suffering. The Church of Ilmater is a religious organisation that includes clerics, paladins and monks (here be superpowers), which lends itself well to pursuing a monk with a more medieval christian aesthetic. The Forgotten Realms entry even goes as far as to list a number of monastic orders dedicated to Ilmater.
I also think you'd be hard-pressed to demonstrate how alcoholism might give one superpowers, yet it's vividly presented in representations of martial arts in media and has been formed into an official monk subclass in 5e.
I'd say the above, and just the general idea that you should be free to craft whatever world you like together with you players/DM in DnD, is a pretty good basis to create a backstory for a Vow of Poverty Monk, whether roleplaying an existing subclass or creating an entirely new one.
Mechanics
The OP's friend might wish to take a look at the Way of Mercy monk, a new subclass to 5e that is described as such:
Looking at how the Vow of Poverty works in 3.5, if you want the easy life of going with a pre-existing monk subclass you could consider offering your friend benefits in return for sacrificing mechanics that imply ownership: for every attunement slot they permanently forgo, they receive a +1 to all saving throws; by forgoing using melee weapons they gain a +1 enchantment to unarmed strikes; by forgoing using ranged weapons they gain a +1 to their base AC.
Well, not really. D&D monks are more akin to anime superheroes or martial art films than anything from the real world, even if they do have some superficial similarities to some real world phenomena.
Simply worshipping Ilmater doesn't give you special powers though. Unless you play a cleric. Clerics and Monks do multiclass rather well together.
Good thing that there are no requirements for alcoholism for monk characters then. Nor any need for alcohol at all, even.
Thank you for the help and info. We are playing in forgotten realms so that really helps.
To that, I'd urge that the OP deserves a bit more than "Well, not really" as a counter-perspective on their objective of realising a Vow of Poverty monk!
The fact is that the mythos of romanticised martial artists such as kung-fu practitioners (Shaolin zen buddhists, remember), eastern philosophy, and modern cultural attitudes based on said eastern philosophy, serve as the very basis for anime superheroes and martial arts films as they have for the 5e Monk class – for many, WoTC's choice to title the class "Monk" might be enough to inform players that the class alludes to romantic imaginings of, well, monks. Aside from a slew of ascetic implications of the monk class, surely the choice to name the class's defining resource as 'Ki' might be enough to convince you that the class has a basis in eastern culture and philosophy, much like the same things have served as the basis for modern anime super heroes?
Do you think you can adequately explain why a rejection of material possession (a "Way of the Humble Palm" monk, if you will) can't serve as an ascetic basis that enables Ki-based abilities in 5e?
Not sure if the OP is familiar with the Legend of the Condor Heroes' Beggar King (Beggar North~translation) or any other Chinese Martial arts films with a Beggar Sect, but I would say that the Open Palm or Drunken Style already fit these types of Monk Perfectly. Any combat style of shiftiness would easily align with this approach, and the 3.5 Vow of Poverty is just another means of playing a MONK without being a MONK in 3.5. Your PC wanted to play a different class and gain benifits similar to the Vow of Poverty, then I think this would really just be multi-classing or taking feats that equate to certain aspects of a Monk, but a 5e Monk really gains similar benefits to the Vow of Poverty.
As everyone mentioned above, it would really just be a manner of role playing and having NPC's immediately have an opinion (usually a low opinion or non-threatening impression) of the PC without the need of trying to convince them who you are.
Your PC might be the a violent blood thirsty killer or wise old man, but you look like a beggar that could either slip under the radar or seen as non-threatening... no need to change how your class plays out mechanically, but just a simple appearance and behavior shift based on your background. I would say take an acolyte background or re-flavor customize the Haunted Background to suite the style of a Beggar.
also, I really wasn't a fan of the Vows were made available in 3.5, but the concept was pretty much similar to having a second class or race set. The issue came about when only 1-player had taken vows and noone else had.
Glad to help, conceptualising Monk subclass and RPs is a passion of mine. Keen to hear what your friend goes with, even if it's just a pre-existing subclass!
I'd like to point out that even the Begger Sect is known for a pair of magical item treasures. A gourd that has the power to create healing potions (medicine), and a magical stave (Dog Beating Staff).
glad someone else is familiar with Condor Heroes =P
have not had a peek at the rest of the thing but if i recall correctly the 3.5e feat was rather potent, giving you new features and most importantly new feats every new level with the caveat that a lot needed to be sacroficed to attain it, it gained a bunch of bonuses to compensate the loss of armor and magic items and generally it would be really hard to emulate in 5e
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I just want to say that in 3.5 and PF. The Vow's were a matter of giving up some kind of mechanical benefit of some kind to gain a different mechanical benefit. Often in the form of things like Extra Ki. But it was also in a game where minmaxing and certain levels of gear on top of certain levels of stats and skills was almost a requirement in the average game. So much so that you were actually expected to have certain levels of magical equipment on your characters when you reached certain tiers of play.
The closest that I can come to is the potential to pick up certain Homebrew boons that you can also accept certain drawbacks for but with the Caveat that if you violate the drawbacks you lose the boon forever and may or may not have some kind of limited punishment for doing so. And that you limit the amount of boons that they can have. These don't necessarily have to mechanically be feats. They could be teachings given as rewards or other non-tangeables in place of actual magic items or equipment for the character in some fashion. In return these boons might give some small bump to some nonstandard resource like an extra ki point, an extra die of healing if your open palm, or other things like that. You'd have to consider balance but for the steepest ones you might give it something like a +1 to their save DC or attack or something. But these get out of hand easily if your not careful depending on what you let them stack with.
Wow, you sure like taking this off topic. But I'll give you a short answer and hopefully you don't feel the need to derail this even further. The mentioned anime and martial arts film has about as much to do with actual Shaolin zen buddhist monks as the TV show "Vikings" as to do with actual Scandinavian 9th century culture. Pretty much nothing at all. Not sure what any of that has anything to do with the topic though so I'll just stay at that. Back OT, OP asked if a vow of poverty would grant super powers in the form of higher AC and a larger damage die. I merely pointed out that, according to the actual rules, such a vow neither does grant super powers nor is it really needed since the basic class abilities of the Monk already grants the asked for powers.
I just want to say thank you all, and that I really appreciate the community on this website. (even when cantankerous) I will let y'all know what my player and I decide on. I did find one subclass, a homebrew, on dandwiki called Way of the Beggar