Not sure what the issue is here, the OP is a DM so he decides whether or not magical items will be a part of their game.
Although technically magic items are optional in 5e from what I observe here and there tables where they are indeed not used are extremely rare. So if you consider giving your players magical items, you can create a homebrew path like that.
If you base your idea on the Voluntary Poverty mechanics from the Book of Exalted Deeds from 3e then here are couple of points for your to consider:
1. In 3e magic items were much less restricted and the huge bonuses that the path of voluntary poverty provided were meant to mitigate that
2. It was widely (AFAIK) considered that the trade-off was mechanically not worth it but it's neither here nor there
4. Bear in mind that magical items are generally less powerful in 5e than they were in 3e. First, you can only attune to 3 - this alone is extremely impactful when you consider balancing the path. They also usually provide lesser bonuses.
5. If you want it to be a subclass of a monk, consider what monk already has and what kind of things magical items can give them. Consider that things like bonuses to ability scores are more valuable here than they were in 3e.
6. Don't try to make it so that extra abilities from voluntary poverty mitigate the lack of ALL possible magical items. Essentially you are trading the flexibility of potential magical items that co do all sorts of stuff for the certainty that you will get something.
7. Consider the endgame - if you plan on giving some legendary items late in the game (if the game lasts that long), give one ability that is on par with that as a capstone so that the player wouldn't feel bad when the party wizard is dressed in Robes of Archmagi or wielding a Staff of Power/Magi.
I'd suggest tweaking that subclass. Normally level 3 monk consolidates the fighting style of the subclass - Open Palm knocks people prone with a flurry of blows, Senshi gives you weaponry abilities, Shadow gives you shadow techniques, Mercy gives you a healing touch, Ascendant Dragon a fire breath, etc. This gives you.... food and resistance to extreme weather. Not a big concern in most games. Flavorful, but easily ignored.
Level 6 makes your attacks +1 when you Flurry of blows. Which is... kind of lame, considering that your main use of ki should be stunning blow, not flurry, at this point. Monks aren't big on dps. Accuracy is nice... but it's kind of restrictive when you get the +1, and you lose the chance for other ki usage.
Level 11 is bad as as the hated Berserker subclass with its exhaustion levels.
Not sure what the issue is here, the OP is a DM so he decides whether or not magical items will be a part of their game.
Although technically magic items are optional in 5e from what I observe here and there tables where they are indeed not used are extremely rare. So if you consider giving your players magical items, you can create a homebrew path like that.
Well, part of the thing with the Vow versus magic items was that, in 3e, magic items are part of the power curve, whereas in 5e they're not.
In 3e, all the Vow gave bonuses at the appropriate level to remain balanced in relation to the power curve. In 5e.... the curve doesn't take magic items into account. So it's impossible to know what's a good set of bonuses to give would be. When, where, how.... Just an impossibility to know. How do you balance the assumption the monk was to get a staff of striking or not?
There's two solutions I can see. Subclass or give out a magic tattoo without calling them magic. But modeling off the 3e feat is a deadend for 5e.
2. Weather acclimation, cold and hot weather are treated like a normal day.
3. For every attunement slot the character forgoes, they can choose a feat they meet the perequisites for
*4. every day they wake up inspired*
5. if they knowingly break their vow, they are cursed. (DM's Choice)
I appreciate all the help, and I learned more about monks today than I ever knew. I wanted to leave his options open for the great subclasses that there are. I am going to go make the feat now.
Not sure what the issue is here, the OP is a DM so he decides whether or not magical items will be a part of their game.
Although technically magic items are optional in 5e from what I observe here and there tables where they are indeed not used are extremely rare. So if you consider giving your players magical items, you can create a homebrew path like that.
Well, part of the thing with the Vow versus magic items was that, in 3e, magic items are part of the power curve, whereas in 5e they're not.
In 3e, all the Vow gave bonuses at the appropriate level to remain balanced in relation to the power curve. In 5e.... the curve doesn't take magic items into account. So it's impossible to know what's a good set of bonuses to give would be. When, where, how.... Just an impossibility to know. How do you balance the assumption the monk was to get a staff of striking or not?
There's two solutions I can see. Subclass or give out a magic tattoo without calling them magic. But modeling off the 3e feat is a deadend for 5e.
You don't balance it against the CR or monsters but against other party members.
The solution is simple - if you, as a DM, plan to give other players magic items (regardless whether or not 5e is balanced around using them) then you have a room to maneuver.
Most DM when they work on their campaigns have a basic idea what kind of items they want to introduce and when. For instance, in my campaign I absolutely will make items like Robe of Archmagi or Staff of the Magi or Holy Avenger available in tier4. Therefore, if I were to design the bonuses of poverty, I could plan accordingly. In the end for me it's more important that the balance between players themselves is preserved (as much as it can be). The encounters? That is easier once everyone is on the same power curve.
I'd consider staggering those bonus feats across that character's levels, otherwise they're going to be hellish compared to your other PCs at early levels - hah!
I mean, three extra ASI/feats as a subclass is decent. But.... ok. For the price of one feat, you'll get Mobility, Mage Slayer and Alert, each game changing abilities on their own?
I found what will work for my player. I dont expect anyone else to use it, or for it to become popular. Personally, i think Vow of Poverty is a neat roleplay, and want to encourage it. Maybe im way off base and will come to regret it, but i think unique roleplays should be encouraged among my players. They are all green and maybe this will give the rest of them more motivation. He is using his imagination to be an individual. I will work with my other players if they choose to follow suit.
I found what will work for my player. I dont expect anyone else to use it, or for it to become popular. Personally, i think Vow of Poverty is a neat roleplay, and want to encourage it. Maybe im way off base and will come to regret it, but i think unique roleplays should be encouraged among my players. They are all green and maybe this will give the rest of them more motivation. He is using his imagination to be an individual. I will work with my other players if they choose to follow suit.
But why do you feel the need to punish the other players if they want to roleplay differently?
Thats the thing. I dont think its that overpowering as you say. You could choose combat specific feats like you say, and im sure that player would be great at fighting, but the other players are getting all the loot, healing potions, and vehicles, horses, animals, whatever. Conversly the monk could choise other feats just to have more versatility. In my campaign people are missing a lot of the story because they just want to show up once a week and just play it like a video game rpg. I want to teach them how to roleplay, subtly. If they are "getting punished" then they can always kill the monk or ask for a similar homebrew.
Thats the thing. I dont think its that overpowering as you say. You could choose combat specific feats like you say, and im sure that player would be great at fighting, but the other players are getting all the loot, healing potions, and vehicles, horses, animals, whatever. Conversly the monk could choise other feats just to have more versatility. In my campaign people are missing a lot of the story because they just want to show up once a week and just play it like a video game rpg. I want to teach them how to roleplay, subtly. If they are "getting punished" then they can always kill the monk or ask for a similar homebrew.
So now you are advocating player versus player and the players punishing other players? How would that solve anything? You do realize that you are creating the situation that you seem to think is a problem, right? An old adage of RPGs is that you reward in game behaviour in the game. If a character wants to play a character with a vow of poverty that is best rewarded by people in the game appreciating the characters actions and not by giving the characters super powers.
(Also, you should probably learn how to use the quote function of the forum since right now it is quite unclear who you are replying too. Just a tip to avoid confusion.)
I think it would be more unfair to assume the character gets a higher in game charisma or something that isnt spelled out in mechanics. He is the one who would be punished, because in reality poor people dont get anything, except actual character adjustments. Like what im giving him with this. The weather and sustenance are something a lot of dms gloss over anyway. And the inspiration every rest is the only thing that is OP in my opinion. Superpowers are a part of the game. I just did a homebrew, i am god. I can do it again. And characters killing other characters is something ive seen before in my experience. No big deal. I am talking to the fishing guy. I dont like quoting all the time.
i think you might be underestimating just how potent feats are nowadays, they are full-on class features, ones that might in some instances greatly alter your playstyle and competence, you are never expected to have too many of them, let alone three or four near the start of the game, purely from an mechanical sense (not considering the roleplay difficulties of playing a character who disregards personal wealth) this seems like almost a no-brainer choice, being unable to use magic items is not a big deal compared to this. Like if you could get all of those minor benefits plus just a single feat that would already be quite the juicy reward
Also for funsies consider adding acclimation to extremely high altitudes as well.
Do have to wonder however, how would you rule a wizard's spellbook? Would you consider it to be an valuable item?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
i think you might be underestimating just how potent feats are nowadays, they are full-on class features, ones that might in some instances greatly alter your playstyle and competence, you are never expected to have too many of them, let alone three or four near the start of the game, purely from an mechanical sense (not considering the roleplay difficulties of playing a character who disregards personal wealth) this seems like almost a no-brainer choice, being unable to use magic items is not a big deal compared to this. Like if you could get all of those minor benefits plus just a single feat that would already be quite the juicy reward
Also for funsies consider adding acclimation to extremely high altitudes as well.
Do have to wonder however, how would you rule a wizard's spellbook? Would you consider it to be an valuable item?
I dont claim to be right, but I want to try it. I explained my reasoning. Thanks for the post though. I would consider a spellbook a very valuable item.
In the end whether it's balanced or not depends on the kind of magic items you want to introduce for the rest of the party during campaign.
Though that solution is quite front loaded - you might think about giving those feats at certain levels.
Feats are not universally better than magic items. It depends on the feat, on the tier of play, on the magic item in question, on the class. There are many rare+ magic items that blow feats out of the water.
i think you might be underestimating just how potent feats are nowadays, they are full-on class features, ones that might in some instances greatly alter your playstyle and competence, you are never expected to have too many of them, let alone three or four near the start of the game, purely from an mechanical sense (not considering the roleplay difficulties of playing a character who disregards personal wealth) this seems like almost a no-brainer choice, being unable to use magic items is not a big deal compared to this. Like if you could get all of those minor benefits plus just a single feat that would already be quite the juicy reward
Also for funsies consider adding acclimation to extremely high altitudes as well.
Do have to wonder however, how would you rule a wizard's spellbook? Would you consider it to be an valuable item?
Many Magical Items are actually effectively entire ASI's or class features as well. Which is something that many people forget. Their overall power has been reduced but the significance of those lower powers has actually been increased because of the lower power balance of the game overall. Particularly since they are not even remotely required for balance in any actual objective way until at least mid 3rd tier or really more 4th Tier and Max Level where they did not really put as much effort into balancing the game out to begin with.
Also As the DM he can monitor it's power and he can choose to modify it or dial it back if he needs to. I'm not going to complain about what he's doing here because it's an agreement between the DM and the Player and coming to an agreement and they can continue to do so as play continues.
My only thought when looking it over would be to potentially gate the feats behind Tier levels of play to represent getting magical items and the like over time. But if his table is ok with this being heavily front loaded and getting less through the overall length of game play that is something for his table to consider on how to deal with and it's not the first time we've seen front loaded power jumps. The whole concept of the 1, or 2 level dips in other classes is entirely based around that same front loaded power idea.
Not sure what the issue is here, the OP is a DM so he decides whether or not magical items will be a part of their game.
Although technically magic items are optional in 5e from what I observe here and there tables where they are indeed not used are extremely rare. So if you consider giving your players magical items, you can create a homebrew path like that.
If you base your idea on the Voluntary Poverty mechanics from the Book of Exalted Deeds from 3e then here are couple of points for your to consider:
1. In 3e magic items were much less restricted and the huge bonuses that the path of voluntary poverty provided were meant to mitigate that
2. It was widely (AFAIK) considered that the trade-off was mechanically not worth it but it's neither here nor there
4. Bear in mind that magical items are generally less powerful in 5e than they were in 3e. First, you can only attune to 3 - this alone is extremely impactful when you consider balancing the path. They also usually provide lesser bonuses.
5. If you want it to be a subclass of a monk, consider what monk already has and what kind of things magical items can give them. Consider that things like bonuses to ability scores are more valuable here than they were in 3e.
6. Don't try to make it so that extra abilities from voluntary poverty mitigate the lack of ALL possible magical items. Essentially you are trading the flexibility of potential magical items that co do all sorts of stuff for the certainty that you will get something.
7. Consider the endgame - if you plan on giving some legendary items late in the game (if the game lasts that long), give one ability that is on par with that as a capstone so that the player wouldn't feel bad when the party wizard is dressed in Robes of Archmagi or wielding a Staff of Power/Magi.
Hmmmmmmm,......
I'd suggest tweaking that subclass. Normally level 3 monk consolidates the fighting style of the subclass - Open Palm knocks people prone with a flurry of blows, Senshi gives you weaponry abilities, Shadow gives you shadow techniques, Mercy gives you a healing touch, Ascendant Dragon a fire breath, etc. This gives you.... food and resistance to extreme weather. Not a big concern in most games. Flavorful, but easily ignored.
Level 6 makes your attacks +1 when you Flurry of blows. Which is... kind of lame, considering that your main use of ki should be stunning blow, not flurry, at this point. Monks aren't big on dps. Accuracy is nice... but it's kind of restrictive when you get the +1, and you lose the chance for other ki usage.
Level 11 is bad as as the hated Berserker subclass with its exhaustion levels.
This subclass is vastly underpowered.
Well, part of the thing with the Vow versus magic items was that, in 3e, magic items are part of the power curve, whereas in 5e they're not.
In 3e, all the Vow gave bonuses at the appropriate level to remain balanced in relation to the power curve. In 5e.... the curve doesn't take magic items into account. So it's impossible to know what's a good set of bonuses to give would be. When, where, how.... Just an impossibility to know. How do you balance the assumption the monk was to get a staff of striking or not?
There's two solutions I can see. Subclass or give out a magic tattoo without calling them magic. But modeling off the 3e feat is a deadend for 5e.
ok, here is what I decided, and the PC agreed:
it will be a bonus feat independent of his class,
taking a Vow of Poverty will grant the Monk,
1. No need for sustenance like food or drink
2. Weather acclimation, cold and hot weather are treated like a normal day.
3. For every attunement slot the character forgoes, they can choose a feat they meet the perequisites for
*4. every day they wake up inspired*
5. if they knowingly break their vow, they are cursed. (DM's Choice)
I appreciate all the help, and I learned more about monks today than I ever knew. I wanted to leave his options open for the great subclasses that there are. I am going to go make the feat now.
You don't balance it against the CR or monsters but against other party members.
The solution is simple - if you, as a DM, plan to give other players magic items (regardless whether or not 5e is balanced around using them) then you have a room to maneuver.
Most DM when they work on their campaigns have a basic idea what kind of items they want to introduce and when. For instance, in my campaign I absolutely will make items like Robe of Archmagi or Staff of the Magi or Holy Avenger available in tier4. Therefore, if I were to design the bonuses of poverty, I could plan accordingly. In the end for me it's more important that the balance between players themselves is preserved (as much as it can be). The encounters? That is easier once everyone is on the same power curve.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/feats/496617-vow-of-poverty
Glad you found what you're after!
I'd consider staggering those bonus feats across that character's levels, otherwise they're going to be hellish compared to your other PCs at early levels - hah!
Three bonus feats? Holy crap, that's overpowered.
I mean, three extra ASI/feats as a subclass is decent. But.... ok. For the price of one feat, you'll get Mobility, Mage Slayer and Alert, each game changing abilities on their own?
I found what will work for my player. I dont expect anyone else to use it, or for it to become popular. Personally, i think Vow of Poverty is a neat roleplay, and want to encourage it. Maybe im way off base and will come to regret it, but i think unique roleplays should be encouraged among my players. They are all green and maybe this will give the rest of them more motivation. He is using his imagination to be an individual. I will work with my other players if they choose to follow suit.
But why do you feel the need to punish the other players if they want to roleplay differently?
Thats the thing. I dont think its that overpowering as you say. You could choose combat specific feats like you say, and im sure that player would be great at fighting, but the other players are getting all the loot, healing potions, and vehicles, horses, animals, whatever. Conversly the monk could choise other feats just to have more versatility. In my campaign people are missing a lot of the story because they just want to show up once a week and just play it like a video game rpg. I want to teach them how to roleplay, subtly. If they are "getting punished" then they can always kill the monk or ask for a similar homebrew.
So now you are advocating player versus player and the players punishing other players? How would that solve anything? You do realize that you are creating the situation that you seem to think is a problem, right? An old adage of RPGs is that you reward in game behaviour in the game. If a character wants to play a character with a vow of poverty that is best rewarded by people in the game appreciating the characters actions and not by giving the characters super powers.
(Also, you should probably learn how to use the quote function of the forum since right now it is quite unclear who you are replying too. Just a tip to avoid confusion.)
I think it would be more unfair to assume the character gets a higher in game charisma or something that isnt spelled out in mechanics. He is the one who would be punished, because in reality poor people dont get anything, except actual character adjustments. Like what im giving him with this. The weather and sustenance are something a lot of dms gloss over anyway. And the inspiration every rest is the only thing that is OP in my opinion. Superpowers are a part of the game. I just did a homebrew, i am god. I can do it again. And characters killing other characters is something ive seen before in my experience. No big deal. I am talking to the fishing guy. I dont like quoting all the time.
i think you might be underestimating just how potent feats are nowadays, they are full-on class features, ones that might in some instances greatly alter your playstyle and competence, you are never expected to have too many of them, let alone three or four near the start of the game, purely from an mechanical sense (not considering the roleplay difficulties of playing a character who disregards personal wealth) this seems like almost a no-brainer choice, being unable to use magic items is not a big deal compared to this. Like if you could get all of those minor benefits plus just a single feat that would already be quite the juicy reward
Also for funsies consider adding acclimation to extremely high altitudes as well.
Do have to wonder however, how would you rule a wizard's spellbook? Would you consider it to be an valuable item?
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I dont claim to be right, but I want to try it. I explained my reasoning. Thanks for the post though. I would consider a spellbook a very valuable item.
In the end whether it's balanced or not depends on the kind of magic items you want to introduce for the rest of the party during campaign.
Though that solution is quite front loaded - you might think about giving those feats at certain levels.
Feats are not universally better than magic items. It depends on the feat, on the tier of play, on the magic item in question, on the class. There are many rare+ magic items that blow feats out of the water.
Many Magical Items are actually effectively entire ASI's or class features as well. Which is something that many people forget. Their overall power has been reduced but the significance of those lower powers has actually been increased because of the lower power balance of the game overall. Particularly since they are not even remotely required for balance in any actual objective way until at least mid 3rd tier or really more 4th Tier and Max Level where they did not really put as much effort into balancing the game out to begin with.
Also As the DM he can monitor it's power and he can choose to modify it or dial it back if he needs to. I'm not going to complain about what he's doing here because it's an agreement between the DM and the Player and coming to an agreement and they can continue to do so as play continues.
My only thought when looking it over would be to potentially gate the feats behind Tier levels of play to represent getting magical items and the like over time. But if his table is ok with this being heavily front loaded and getting less through the overall length of game play that is something for his table to consider on how to deal with and it's not the first time we've seen front loaded power jumps. The whole concept of the 1, or 2 level dips in other classes is entirely based around that same front loaded power idea.