So what about we throw together a chart with just the average damage no str/dex mods, no need for proficiency as they would theoretically be equal, no feats even though the fighter gets more, no increased stats even though the fighter would theoretically have a higher cap, and assume in general that they hit just to avoid the Stat mods that could throw it off?
For simplicity I'm just looking at Unarmed Combat for the first comparison. The reason being is the real question here is who is the better living weapon if they find themselves getting into a brawl in the privy with no hold out weapons.
I'll put in the number of attacks in order for totals. I'll consider the Ki as flurry of blows for simplicity though most would save for Stunning strike once it became available.
Fighter
Rnd 1
Rnd 2
Rnd 3
Combine
Level
1 Attk
2 Attk
3 Attk
4 Attk
Total
1 Attk
2 Attk
3 Attk
4 Attk
Total
1 Attk
2 Attk
3 Attk
4 Attk
Total
Total
1
4
4
4
4
4
4
12
2
4
4 AS
8
4
4
4
4
16
3
4
4 AS
8
4
4
4
4
16
4
4
4 AS
8
4
4
4
4
16
5
4
4
8 AS
16
4
4
8
4
4
8
24
6
4
4
8 AS
16
4
4
8
4
4
8
24
7
4
4
8 AS
16
4
4
8
4
4
8
24
8
4
4
8 AS
16
4
4
8
4
4
8
24
9
4
4
8 AS
16
4
4
8
4
4
8
24
10
4
4
8 AS
16
4
4
8
4
4
8
24
11
4
4
4
12AS
24
4
4
4
12
4
4
4
12
48
12
4
4
4
12 AS
24
4
4
4
12
4
4
4
12
48
13
4
4
4
12 AS
24
4
4
4
12
4
4
4
12
48
14
4
4
4
12 AS
24
4
4
4
12
4
4
4
12
48
15
4
4
4
12 AS
24
4
4
4
12
4
4
4
12
48
16
4
4
4
12 AS
24
4
4
4
12
4
4
4
12
48
17
4
4
4
12 AS
24
4
4
4
12 AS
24
4
4
4
12
60
18
4
4
4
12 AS
24
4
4
4
12 AS
24
4
4
4
12
60
19
4
4
4
12 AS
24
4
4
4
12 AS
24
4
4
4
12
60
20
4
4
4
20 AS
32
4
4
4
20AS
32
4
4
4
4
16
78
Monk
Rnd 1
Rnd 2
Rnd 3
Combine
Level
1 Attk
2 Attk
3 Attk
4 Attk
Total
1 Attk
2 Attk
3 Attk
4 Attk
Total
1 Attk
2 Attk
3 Attk
4 Attk
Total
Total
1
2
2
4
2
2
4
2
2
4
12
2
2
4 FB
6
2
4FB
6
2
2
4
16
3
2
4 FB
6
2
4 FB
6
2
4FB
6
18
4
2
4 FB
6
2
4 FB
6
2
4 FB
6
18
5
3
3
6 FB
12
3
3
6 FB
12
3
3
6 FB
12
36
6
3
3
6 FB
12
3
3
6 FB
12
3
3
6 FB
12
36
7
3
3
6 FB
12
3
3
6 FB
12
3
3
6 FB
12
36
8
3
3
6 FB
12
3
3
6 FB
12
3
3
6 FB
12
36
9
3
3
6 FB
12
3
3
6 FB
12
3
3
6 FB
12
36
10
3
3
6 FB
12
3
3
6 FB
12
3
3
6 FB
12
36
11
4
4
8 FB
16
4
4
8 FB
16
4
4
8 FB
16
48
12
4
4
8 FB
16
4
4
8 FB
16
4
4
8 FB
16
48
13
4
4
8 FB
16
4
4
8 FB
16
4
4
8 FB
16
48
14
4
4
8 FB
16
4
4
8 FB
16
4
4
8 FB
16
48
15
4
4
8 FB
16
4
4
8 FB
16
4
4
8 FB
16
48
16
4
4
8 FB
16
4
4
8 FB
16
4
4
8 FB
16
48
17
5
5
10 FB
20
5
5
10 FB
20
5
5
10 FB
20
60
18
5
5
10 FB
20
5
5
10 FB
20
5
5
10 FB
20
60
19
5
5
10 FB
20
5
5
10 FB
20
5
5
10 FB
20
60
20
5
5
10 FB
20
5
5
10 FB
20
5
5
10 FB
20
60
Frankly, I was a little surprised by the results as I thought the Fighter would crush the Monk with just base dice. However, dice mechanics he is only superior for the first 3 Levels after which he is playing catch up. However, the damage is still significant enough that you can pull your martial art's master with fighter alone.
There is a reason that the Monk Crushes it. The monk is balanced around comparing to Martials using D10 weapons on average with right around the same damage output for basic attacks as that Fighter Wielding a Long Sword. Even with a Great Sword and superiority Die (which are limited), the Fighter is not doing radically different damage than a monk wielding a d8 weapon for part of it's attacks, or using flurry of Blows until you get into higher levels and in those higher levels most other martials have actually slowed a fair bit in gaining damage increases and the monk is actually branching out into secondary powers to add to their punches over just piling on raw damage but they still compete.
And nobody has argued that a fighter couldn't take the fighting style which is available to them natively and make decent use of it. We've only repeatedly made the point that the fighter is not better than the monk at doing what the monk does and it's not a sufficient advantage to the monk to go out of their way to get it for themselves for what it would cost them to do that.
For reference. I don't remember all of the numbers but i think it was with assuming something like a 75% hit accuracy the d10 of a long sword and the 2 unarmed attacks of the monk both actually average out to almost the same thing just because the monk would actually miss slightly more often with at least one attack so that over the long run it worked out to roughly the same thing. And when All the martial classes get their extra attack. The extra damage is actually spread out over all the monks attacks through the increased damage die rather than in just a single attack like all of the rest. Which is why they have a slowly ascending damage die over the course of their careers.
however I need to point out that your chart needs adjusting at level 1,2 and 3 for the monk as I have tried to edit above. The reason being that at level 1 for the monk They do still get a single bonus action attack that they can make even though they don't have flurry of blows yet thanks to martial arts. So you'd actually have 6 more damage over the 3 rounds using the simplified terms of the chart. This means that the Monk would actually do 12 damage over those same 3 turns as the Fighter did 12. When the Ki feature is gained the Monk starts with 2 ki and not one. So they would actually be able to flurry of Blows for 2 rounds and the third round a single bonus action attack at level 2 and 3 rounds of FoB at level 3. Giving them 16 and then 18 damage over those 3 turns. Which means the damage totals for those first three rounds are 12, 16, and 18 respectively. This means that the Monk actually beats out the Fighter by 2 average damage starting at turn 3 instead of turn 4.
(editing Note, Had to fix a point of my own math and my editing of the chart to try and keep it making sense)
Secondary Editing Note: I noticed you did not actually apply the full Action Surge to the Fighter. I didn't notice this my first few times but I went through and added the full range of attacks that the Action surge would have given you form level's 5-20 since it's a full unrestricted action and does gain the benefit of the Fighters Extra Attack feature as it evolves throughout it's levels. This means the damage between the two actually falls back more in line at high levels but it's through the shere large number of attacks both are making at d8 and larger dice pools and the shere power of having two Action Surges available at level 17 and above that are used without worry in two consecutive rounds for bursting that damage upwards. This however doesn't invalidate the original conclusion because the reality is that if the fight takes longer than three rounds than the monk would end up overtaking the fighter once more through sheer abundance of resources when purely spent on FoB as the levels go up where as the fighter has spent most of it's burst potential in the first two rounds.
I'm thinking the gap is going to be even larger with equal damage bonuses. I'll work on an exaggerated chart to look at it with +5 per hit to see what it all plays out like just in totals over the 3 rounds. What I came up with looks like this:
Level Fighter Attks Dmg Total Level Monk Attks Dmg Total
Kind of weird how the Fighter JUST edges out the Monk at 20th level. Frankly the gulf between 4-10 was surprising. Oddly the only thing sparing the monk is that unarmed strikes are not considered a weapon. Otherwise, the Fighter build would get a huge spike in damage because then he could use a bonus action each round.
I'm thinking the gap is going to be even larger with equal damage bonuses. I'll work on an exaggerated chart to look at it with +5 per hit to see what it all plays out like just in totals over the 3 rounds. What I came up with looks like this:
Level Fighter Attks Dmg Total Level Monk Attks Dmg Total
Kind of weird how the Fighter JUST edges out the Monk at 20th level. Frankly the gulf between 4-10 was surprising. Oddly the only thing sparing the monk is that unarmed strikes are not considered a weapon. Otherwise, the Fighter build would get a huge spike in damage because then he could use a bonus action each round.
qualifying the unarmed strike as a weapon gives a major Advantage to Monks as well. There is a lot that could be applied that monks just can't currently use, at least on their unarmed strikes that would be useful if they could (and some lean on certain advice and grey areas of non-answer in the books to do just that). However the Fighter would not get a spike in damage from them being weapons because despite the fact that you have 2 fists your not actually dual wielding them since they still don't have the light property. Remember that the Monk does a special facsimile of dual weapon fighting through Martial Arts. just like it does a facsimile Finesse weapon trait onto their unarmed strikes to allow the choice between Strength or Dexterity to fight with. Turning them to weapons unfortunately doesn't do that, all it would do is make them simple weapons. Also keep in mind that the monk is actually capable of more damage than what our simple system has taken into account even without the change but we left that variable out for the sake of simplicity in comparison.
The number of attacks is slightly off for calculating the damage on your newest chart here. Between levels 5-10. The Fighter only gets 6 attacks (2 for each of the three rounds and 2 from Action Surge). 11-16 is the same 12 attacks that the Monk gets and at the same damage numbers (3 from each of the turns and 3 from action surge). Level 17-19 the Fighter is actually is making 15 total attacks (3 for each of the rounds 3 each from action surge in rounds 1 and 2), and at level 20 it's actually making a whopping 20 attacks (4 from each of the three rounds and 4 from action surge in rounds 1 and 2).
Assuming the +5 modifier on each of the attacks this means that each attack from the fighter at all levels is 9. So at levels 5-10 that would be 54 damage. At levels 11-16 that would be 108. Levels 17-19 would be 135. And level 20 would be an insane 180 damage. But this is all because of an almost utterly rediculous number of attacks in a very short period of time. In large part because of Action Surge.
The monks Damage however varies more and goes up more incrementally in more places. A single attack at level 1 is 7 damage which is actually slightly lower individually but it's spread over 6 attacks, 8 attacks at level 2 and 9 attacks at level 3 and 4. At level 5 the damage increases so it's 8 damage over what becomes the standard 12 attacks, At level 11 it's 9 damage, and at level 17 it's 10 damage.
So the Fighter does manages to come out ahead in damage with the +5 multiplier at the highest levels but it's because of the sheer crazy number of attacks that it's actually putting out rather than the damage of those attacks. And for each extra 3 turns it's damage actually erodes by 12 so the Fighters lead from those extra attacks actually dwindles as the fight wears on to push into the monks favor over time. But the early gap with the basic structure we are using and assuming all attacks hit causes the monk to overpower the fighter at the low levels. But this is not actually surprising.
The Monk is balanced to function equally well at basic attacks over most levels with d10 and d12 weapons as I think I stated before. Which puts the average damage of the Fighter at more like 10 or 11 using a +5 modifier and our basic math here.
(First off, apologies about the bonus action Dodge mistake. That was a last-second addon to my comment and I didn't go back to reread. My bad.)
Regarding that they "start off with lower AC", I'd like to see how you determine starting equipment. Here's a quick rundown of max AC for every martial class at level one, assuming optimized standard array stats and lineage ASIs, and using the highest AC options for starting equipment:
Monk: Our baseline, and as shown before it is easy to get 16 AC with a 15 in DEX (+1 with lineage ASI) and a 14 in WIS (+2 with lineage ASI), so 10+3+3 via Unarmored Defense at level one. Barbarian: Unarmored Defense can easily grant 16 AC. Needs to go with the starting GP option and purchase a shield to improve past 16 AC. Keep in mind that +3 DEX and +3 CON means that our Barb is not as strong as one might like. Fighter: Chain mail gets you to 16 AC but comes with downsides in minimum STR requirements and Stealth disadvantage. You'd need a shield to get above that, and then you'd have only handaxes as your weapons based on standard starting equipment. (Admittedly, an average 125 GP could get you chain, shield, and a better weapon.) Paladin: Similar to a fighter, chain and shield come with it right away, so 16+2 for 18 AC. Comes with a martial weapon as well. (Dang, is there anything Paladins don't get?) Ranger: Scale mail and 14 DEX can get to 16 AC. If you go the GP route then a shield can be purchased for 18 AC. Keep in mind that this also sacrifices Stealth. Rogue: Leather armor at level one will likely max out at 14 AC (assuming +3 DEX). With GP you could get studded leather and 15 AC.
Martials can only exceed Monks' AC if they sacrifice several things (either weapon choices, or Stealth capabilities, or a hand devoted to a shield, etc). Monks get to a respectable 16 AC without sacrificing anything. And they can continue to increase their AC at no cost, without being beholden to what is available in their world. And they max out at 20 AC without any magic equipment without any STR requirements, without any Stealth disadvantage, and while keeping both hands free -- exactly what armor is going to max out at.
And if we are considering magic items for armor, then you have to consider Cloaks of Displacement and Rings of Protection for Monks as well, which can further boost AC past 20.
Small quibble first: fighters have a choice for a martial weapon and shield in their starting equipment, so they aren't stuck with a hand-axe.
And yes, 16 is what 4/5 martials can expect to start at before shields, fighting styles, or race/class feats (3/5 if we assume the barb would normally choose to put a 14 in dex). A well built monk can hang there 16 at the start, but never any higher without rolling for stats, unlike most other martials.
My main points are:
1. those who wear armor have a chance to increase their AC without an ASI, by 1-2 through mundane armor relatively easily. Later with enchanted armor, those bonuses grow without ever needing an ASI (although there are feats that can make armor better).
2. Yes, shields are a trade off, but Monk doesn't really even get the benefits of such a trade off. Those who forgo shields choose to do so for more powerful weapons and abilities, like sneak attack, Great Weapon Master, Sharpshooter, etc. Monk's don't really get a similar option until flurry of blows, but that has costs to use.
3. Finally, every other class gets other defensive abilities on top of their 16 AC, ie Rage, Second Wind, bonus action hide/disengage, healing hands, spellcasting, bigger hit dice. Monk gets step of the wind and patient defense at level 2, but it costs monks their bonus action and a ki point, things they are deeply dependent on. Ki points especially are very precious at low levels.
4. Even the somewhat squishy rogue and ranger can viably swap to a ranged fighting style for defensive play. But Martial Arts and Flurry of blows, as well as Monk's only D8 weapons being melee, pushes them to want to be close in combatants to be at their most effective.
I think Monks could get away with having more benefit without coming close to being broken.
I'm thinking the gap is going to be even larger with equal damage bonuses. I'll work on an exaggerated chart to look at it with +5 per hit to see what it all plays out like just in totals over the 3 rounds. What I came up with looks like this:
Level Fighter Attks Dmg Total Level Monk Attks Dmg Total
Kind of weird how the Fighter JUST edges out the Monk at 20th level. Frankly the gulf between 4-10 was surprising. Oddly the only thing sparing the monk is that unarmed strikes are not considered a weapon. Otherwise, the Fighter build would get a huge spike in damage because then he could use a bonus action each round.
Well yes, if the fighter got monk features it'd be way better. If the monk got barbarian features it would also be way better.
I'm glad you see at least those benefits. This mean you're on Team Monk now?
Small quibble first: fighters have a choice for a martial weapon and shield in their starting equipment, so they aren't stuck with a hand-axe.
And yes, 16 is what 4/5 martials can expect to start at before shields, fighting styles, or race/class feats (3/5 if we assume the barb would normally choose to put a 14 in dex). A well built monk can hang there 16 at the start, but never any higher without rolling for stats, unlike most other martials.
16 is a good AC at level 1, especially with no shields. Are you saying that this is the max AC for a monk while max AC for some other classes using shields is 19 if the pick the defensive fighting style and use a shield? Doing that gives up a lot of offensive power. I guess monks don't the option to trade offense for more defense if that's what you're saying.
My main points are:
1. those who wear armor have a chance to increase their AC without an ASI, by 1-2 through mundane armor relatively easily. Later with enchanted armor, those bonuses grow without ever needing an ASI (although there are feats that can make armor better).
And a monk can use bracers of defense to increase it by 2. Monks are going to be putting ASIs in main stat for a lot of reasons, one of of which is AC. They'd likely still put it in main stat even if that weren't true.
2. Yes, shields are a trade off, but Monk doesn't really even get the benefits of such a trade off. Those who forgo shields choose to do so for more powerful weapons and abilities, like sneak attack, Great Weapon Master, Sharpshooter, etc. Monk's don't really get a similar option until flurry of blows, but that has costs to use.
That is a knock against the monk - no great feats to drastically increase damage. Kensei bow monks with tasha's optional rules can put sharpshooter to great use though. And with the addition of Crusher, that can be a great monk feat. It might not directly increase their own damage by a ton, but it does increase it some and also increases the whole parties damage.
3. Finally, every other class gets other defensive abilities on top of their 16 AC, ie Rage, Second Wind, bonus action hide/disengage, healing hands, spellcasting, bigger hit dice. Monk gets step of the wind and patient defense at level 2, but it costs monks their bonus action and a ki point, things they are deeply dependent on. Ki points especially are very precious at low levels.
Low levels it is an issue and they'll typically be saved for defense. At middle levels and up though I've found it's never an issue. Also - Rage, second wind, healing hands, and spellcasting also have limited uses.
4. Even the somewhat squishy rogue and ranger can viably swap to a ranged fighting style for defensive play. But Martial Arts and Flurry of blows, as well as Monk's only D8 weapons being melee, pushes them to want to be close in combatants to be at their most effective.
A monk using tasha's rules can use a longbow as a monk weapon if they have proficiency. Like if they're an elf or something.
I think Monks could get away with having more benefit without coming close to being broken.
Tasha's did a lot to address some of the damage shortcomings of the class. Turning hits into misses and free bonus action weapon attacks if you've used a ki is fantastic. It's hard to directly show that on paper though.
The big thing would be disentangling some of the dependence upon ki and bonus actions. Maybe give them a 3rd attack at 11th level, make step of the wind free like the Rogue's cunning action, and maybe mix patient defense the martial arts attack or make it a reaction ki ability.
And throwing in an extra ASI or two to make them a little more customizable. Just a fun thing, and shouldn't mess with anything if its at the same levels as rogue.
But its hard to make too many changes without messing with stunning strike, which is theoretically strong. Im not the biggest fan of letting the class's identity revolve around a callback to previous editions' "trip monkey," where tripping enemies was about the only useful thing monks could do.
With what they got in Tasha's I think they're in a really good place. That said, I think letting them have the same ASI schedule as the rogue would be nice. I really don't think they need all that much to be competitive mechanically. They do need magic items that augment unarmed strikes though.
And a monk can use bracers of defense to increase it by 2. Monks are going to be putting ASIs in main stat for a lot of reasons, one of of which is AC. They'd likely still put it in main stat even if that weren't true
Sure, but if we are giving out the one AC item that isn't armor, why not give it out to the whole party? In which case, monks are still behind.
And I've seen arguments that monks should strongly consider taking the mobile feat to get around needing to spend ki and bonus actions on step of the wind. Or that they might want magic initiate for hex. There are plenty of feats monks might want to take too.
But isn't it kind of telling that your argument here is that monk players would still be driven to optimize? Why do other classes feel more able to swing a feat instead without suffering, and why is that a point in the monk's favor?
That is a knock against the monk - no great feats to drastically increase damage. Kensei bow monks with tasha's optional rules can put sharpshooter to great use though. And with the addition of Crusher, that can be a great monk feat. It might not directly increase their own damage by a ton, but it does increase it some and also increases the whole parties damage.
Good points. I am actually falling in love with the idea of a speedy kensei sharpshooter who works like helicopter gunship or horse archer, just peppering the enemy with shots while running circles around them. Maybe take a 4 level dip into ranger. That could be fun, although a bit off meta.
Low levels it is an issue and they'll typically be saved for defense. At middle levels and up though I've found it's never an issue. Also - Rage, second wind, healing hands, and spellcasting also have limited uses.
I appreciate that insight into how they work at higher levels. Ki is definitely less limiting as the pool grows. I've only played a monk up to level 6, so its useful to hear that it can get easier on that point.
But I will point out that while those abilities are also limited, they do not draw on the same one pool of resources that make those classes work defensively and offensively. A monk without ki points is just a dual wielding base fighter with a smaller hit die, until 17th level.
A monk using tasha's rules can use a longbow as a monk weapon if they have proficiency. Like if they're an elf or something.
That is true, and Im glad they are trying to give monks more to work with on the edges like that. But its something the monk has to build towards from the start, and doesn't synergize with abilities like stunning strike and flurry of blows. At best, they'll only ever be as good as a 5th level fighter with the longbow.
Still, a better option than shortbow or throwing just one dart.
Tasha's did a lot to address some of the damage shortcomings of the class. Turning hits into misses and free bonus action weapon attacks if you've used a ki is fantastic. It's hard to directly show that on paper though.
They gave a few more options for ki use, but Im not sure that is such a great thing. They already draw on ki for everything. And some things like the Quickened healing are just sort of squalid. 2 ki points to heal for 1 martial arts di as an action is really only beneficial as a way to spam healing before a short rest.
Clarifying on Tasha's Optional rules of a Long Bow.. an elf monk is always proficient with a long bow regardless of rules. It's not a martial art weapon though because it is a melee weapon.. but you can still use it with no penalty. Unless it's a melee attack with a throw property, you cannot follow up a ranged attack with a martial art strike, even as a Kensei.
As a Kensei though, you can add additional damage with any ranged weapon as described in the subclass.
You could argue that a Monk is just a dual wielding Fighter at level 1, sure... but you could also argue a Ranger and Paladin are basically Fighters without a Fighting Style at level 1, even though they have their own little low level abilities to start off with at that level. If you're starting in dungeon with no armor, weapons or equipment at level 1 though, I guarantee you that the Monk will do a better job taking out those Giant Rats even if the party finds that rusty sword or giant fimar bone that can be used as a makeshift warclub in the corner!
Level 2 - 5, all of the martial classes will begin to play differently. The problem with comparing AC and straight consistent damage on a round per round turn is you're missing the advantages of the Monk... their ability to run out and target a single creature and then get away before the mob comes down on them. They're not tanks, but they get decent enough HP and AC to get by for a round or two while in the thick of it. They've got the utility and mobility to GFTO when they get focused on.... and they've got great burst damage with Flurry of Blows and any other abilities from their subclass kit. With the exception of Rogues, once one of the other Martial Classes gets in the thick of it, they're stuck there unless they kill the targets threatening them, blow an action to disengage, or have something specifically from a subclass ability.
If you've EVER had to run from a fight against a significantly higher CR monster or you just aren't in the right shape to duke it out, the Rogue is probably the most likely to get out first, with the Monk being right behind him providing he has Ki Points still (even then Improved movement might give him the edge).
As for the expanded uses of Ki points in Tasha's optional rules. 100% agree... it's nice to have options, but they aren't ground breaking or necessary except for a few instances. Healing with 2 Ki points is kind of a waste, but if you need to make multiple short rests each day for a serious day of combat, sure.. use those Ki points to save your HD in the long run. 90% of the time though, you're still going to use your Ki Points for the other existing uses. Options are good, although you might not use them very often... the good thing is you don't have to Choose like Battlemaster Maneuvers or Sorcerer points, and you don't have to prepare to use them like spells
Clarifying on Tasha's Optional rules of a Long Bow.. an elf monk is always proficient with a long bow regardless of rules. It's not a martial art weapon though because it is a melee weapon.. but you can still use it with no penalty. Unless it's a melee attack with a throw property, you cannot follow up a ranged attack with a martial art strike, even as a Kensei.
As a Kensei though, you can add additional damage with Said ranged weapon
This is factually false. The Kensai has the ability to choose the Longbow and make it a Monk Weapon. The Kensai weapons ability calls out Long Bows specifically as a valid choice but they were a valid choice anyway because they do not have the Heavy or Special Properties. Being a Monk weapon you can indeed follow it up with a martial art strike because Monk weapons all qualify for martial arts. Martial Arts merely says that the attack to trigger the follow up bonus action attack or even Flurry of Blows need only be an unarmed strike or a monk weapon. It does not make any distinction between Melee or Ranged.
The Kensei shot in effect makes it however that instead of doing a melee martial arts strike after the attack instead applies your bonus unarmed attack straight to your ranged weapon attack without having to roll and additional attack, eventually even being able to apply it to both attacks. The downside being that doing this way the damage does not increase with your martial arts die.
The Second way to do unarmed martial arts strikes after shots with a Long Bow is the optional feature Dedicated Weapon assuming that the Monk has some way to have proficiency in the Long Bow to use Dedicated Weapon on it. But these can only be melee because you do not have the kensai specific ability.
Hmmm.. that's actually kind of an oddly written rule as well, Fateless... although I 100% think you're right. I always remember the first part of martial arts where it calls out a Monk Weapon as "Short Sword and any Simple Melee Weapon" and misinterpetted the Decidated Weapon as having the words Melee weapon in there somewhere.
In practice, a Monk is proficient in a Short Bow or Crossbow, but it is not a Monk Weapon unless he spends a Ki Point to make it a Monk Weapon... never thought of it that way....
Thanks for the correction
Martial Arts
At 1st level, your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of combat styles that use unarmed strikes and monk weapons, which are shortswords and any simple melee weapons that don’t have the two-handed or heavy property.
You gain the following benefits while you are unarmed or wielding only monk weapons and you aren’t wearing armor or wielding a shield: --etc, etc, etc.
Dedicated Weapon
2nd-level monk feature
You train yourself to use a variety of weapons as monk weapons, not just simple melee weapons and shortswords. Whenever you finish a short or long rest, you can touch one weapon, focus your ki on it, and then count that weapon as a monk weapon until you use this feature again.
Small quibble first: fighters have a choice for a martial weapon and shield in their starting equipment, so they aren't stuck with a hand-axe.
And yes, 16 is what 4/5 martials can expect to start at before shields, fighting styles, or race/class feats (3/5 if we assume the barb would normally choose to put a 14 in dex). A well built monk can hang there 16 at the start, but never any higher without rolling for stats, unlike most other martials.
My main points are:
1. those who wear armor have a chance to increase their AC without an ASI, by 1-2 through mundane armor relatively easily. Later with enchanted armor, those bonuses grow without ever needing an ASI (although there are feats that can make armor better).
2. Yes, shields are a trade off, but Monk doesn't really even get the benefits of such a trade off. Those who forgo shields choose to do so for more powerful weapons and abilities, like sneak attack, Great Weapon Master, Sharpshooter, etc. Monk's don't really get a similar option until flurry of blows, but that has costs to use.
3. Finally, every other class gets other defensive abilities on top of their 16 AC, ie Rage, Second Wind, bonus action hide/disengage, healing hands, spellcasting, bigger hit dice. Monk gets step of the wind and patient defense at level 2, but it costs monks their bonus action and a ki point, things they are deeply dependent on. Ki points especially are very precious at low levels.
4. Even the somewhat squishy rogue and ranger can viably swap to a ranged fighting style for defensive play. But Martial Arts and Flurry of blows, as well as Monk's only D8 weapons being melee, pushes them to want to be close in combatants to be at their most effective.
I think Monks could get away with having more benefit without coming close to being broken.
1. This is a another surface level fallacy. Most of the Martials cannot in fact in crease their armor through their ASI's if they choose to meet these starting maximums through their level one stats like the monk can. And of those that can only the Barbarian can potentially do it as high as the Monk Can. But that actually means forgoing Magical armor and focusing in a tertiary stat to accomplish. So the point of them being able to raise it outside of ASI's doesn't matter because they cannot significantly raise it with them. The only other two that can even raise it marginally are the rogue (by 2 points) and the leather armor ranger (by 2 points). Any other ASI increases are only by those wearing Medium Armor or less and did not meet their optimal +dexterity to begin with.
2. I've said time and again and we have shown in various ways that the Monk is actually balanced against those Larger weapons. The Monk may not gain access to certain feats that work with those weapons however, Those feats are both Optional by the Rules and not necessarily taken by all the other martial classes for various reasons. Trying to lean back on them is again is a surface level misdirection. Also at the lowest levels to some extent that damage is needed to actually bring up the average damage of the martial classes that can use them to be fully competetive with the monk and the Rogue. They also come with their own balancing internal factor in the fact that to apply the extra damage the Martial needs to take a reduction in their attack modifier equal to the maximum attribute modifier which lessens their ability to hit to be able to do this increased damage. And it only truely pulls ahead by mid game and locks other martial classes entirely into damage where the monk is picking up a nice array of tricks on top of solid damage.
3. These other defensive abilities that you keep bringing up are also accounted for. The monk is going to take damage from less sources by the middle of Tier 2. It's resource pool is much higher than the other Martial Classes to fuel things like Patient Defense and Step of the Wind and increases at a much faster rate compared to any other resource from the other classes. Most of which are finite. On top of this these two are not actually the Monks only defenses like you keep claiming, Deflect Missiles is another Defense that costs no Ki to use and can easily become powerful to block even Sharp Shooter boosted shots and is even picked up at a very low level being able to actually block 7 damage from a ranged attack minimum when it is picked up at level 3 and scaling all the way up to a minimum of 26 damage at level 20. Finally Rage. It's far from a perfect defense even at low level where the Barbarian is likely going to take more damage much of the time than the monk is and it not always active. It is actually very easy for a Barbarian to end up taking damage without this protection. Particularly at low level and against things like a Ranged Attacker, which the Barbarian has no good weapons or ways to retaliate against or against things like traps and ambushes that can cause damage when the Barbarian has not yet had a chance to use their Rage.
4. Swapping styles for Safety does help the Rogue and the Ranger to some extent. But they also are not as mobile as the Monk is naturally. The rogue is the only class that can compete with the monk at most levels for mobility and only through constant use of it's bonus actions but the monk does quickly pull away. The Monk however has features that in many instances actually can negate the need to resort to a ranged style. With the ability to quickly close gaps and a built in protection against ranged attacks. Getting close is often not an issue for them. The only thing that might be a problem is a flying opponent and that is actually a problem for several of the martial classes with only mediocre answers at best to deal with on their own. However, Flying enemies are actually not the bulk of the threats in the game either and has a myriad of solutions to deal with adequately from spells that stop flying, adding flight to the monk as well, to engineering situations where flight is restricted at worst and impossible at best. So your bringing up a detriment that for the majority of the game is not necessarily a detriment and for the parts that are there are solutions for. Ranged is not some magical bullseye mcguffin that breaks everything despite attempts by a few to make it seem that way at times.
EDIT: Through being Reminded by Theredwind and his conversation in this same thread. There is additional information in favor of the Monk in regards to Ranged Combat. Something that is often missed or forgotten because we all get caught up in the monks powers and monk weapons. The Monk actually is fully proficient from Level 1 in both the short bow and the light Crossbow. Both of them are also both obtainable through the Monks Starting Weapons and the short bow is compatible with the Extra attack the monk recieves at level 5 as well as the Dexterity stat that the monk is already building up due to his other class abilities revolving around it's increases. Something that the Fighter, the Paladin, and even the Barbarian cannot actually say when they are attempting ranged combat. The only thing not automatically and immediately obtained are arrows. So you would have to purchase those in some way. Or perhaps collect all the ones that you catch through deflect arrows to be used in your bow when you really need ranged.
Since we've put a little basic math in this thread to show differences already. let's do just a little bit more. Let's talk about Deflect Missiles against a Ranged Attack. Let's talk max level for ease of practicality. +5 stat modifiers and a +3 Bow with Sharp Shooter for Good measure. Then we'll compare the Monk without any extra protection and with the two easily gotten protection's I mentioned before (ring of Protection and Bracers of Defense).
The archer with these stats will have a +14 to his attack Naturally (+6 proficiency, +5 stat, +3 weapon) but will only be able to shoot at a +9 to get the extra damage component of Sharp shooter. With the Monks AC at 20. This seems like a fairly easy shot. Requiring an 11 to hit so it's about 55% of the time. The Monk then uses it's reaction to Deflect Missiles for 1d10+5(stat modifier)+20 (level modifier). This is going to block a minimum of 26 damage, a basic average of 30 damage, and a Maximum Damage of 35. That Archer with it's bow is going to deal 1d8+5(stat modifier)+10(sharp shooter bonus damage). This means that it's going to do a minimum of 16 damage, A basic average of 19 damage, and a Maximum Damage of 23. This means that without some other damage increases even if the monk gets hit by this shot it is completely negated before the Monk even has to roll the dice. You need another 10 guaranteed damage on the archer to even make it basically even odds whether any damage at all will get through.
But we're not quite done here by the parameters I set at the start. Boosting the AC up to 23 on the Monk that same archer now only has a 40% chance roughly of even making the shot in the first place by requiring t least a 14 to be rolled and then the archer still has to have enough damage or manage to hit the Monk when it does not have a reaction for Deflect Missiles. The Average Archer often only has 2 shots (though a few have more through various means). This means that through Deflect Missiles and chance of hitting the monk in the first place the chances of actually striking the monk are low.
And this is all without even taking into account potential for combinations of defense abilities that other classes do not have. Such as the ability to force disadvantage on all shots taken at the monk while they are closing the gap to get into melee range. Good to Excellent saves in all categories in tier 4. High stat modifiers in both of the most common saves and proficiency in one of them at low levels. If monks had higher hitpoints or an easy time getting their constitution score high they would likely be considered OP to take on. It's only through the whole surface level glances and perceptions and in some cases seeming refusal to actually analyze and look at the facts that the monk is considered weak and requiring buffing.
Hmmm.. that's actually kind of an oddly written rule as well, Fateless... although I 100% think you're right. I always remember the first part of martial arts where it calls out a Monk Weapon as "Short Sword and any Simple Melee Weapon" and misinterpetted the Decidated Weapon as having the words Melee weapon in there somewhere.
In practice, a Monk is proficient in a Short Bow or Crossbow, but it is not a Monk Weapon unless he spends a Ki Point to make it a Monk Weapon... never thought of it that way....
Thanks for the correction
Martial Arts
At 1st level, your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of combat styles that use unarmed strikes and monk weapons, which are shortswords and any simple melee weapons that don’t have the two-handed or heavy property.
You gain the following benefits while you are unarmed or wielding only monk weapons and you aren’t wearing armor or wielding a shield: --etc, etc, etc.
Dedicated Weapon
2nd-level monk feature
You train yourself to use a variety of weapons as monk weapons, not just simple melee weapons and shortswords. Whenever you finish a short or long rest, you can touch one weapon, focus your ki on it, and then count that weapon as a monk weapon until you use this feature again.
It's understandable to come to your conclusion, And I've been reminded that i should say the way I responded was not meant to be harsh. I don't necessarily notice when i come off that way when I am making responses as I don't catch all tonal queues. Even my own.
But yes. it's a quirk of specificity between different powers. Kensai make one distinction by adding in martial weapons and specifically the Long Bow as a point of crystal clarity they seemed to need stating. And Dedicated Weapon seems to draw more off the wording of the Kensai than the martial arts which is why some feel it steps on the Kensai's toes. Though the Kensai still has a weapon versatility not present even with Dedicated Weapon.
It's only the most general ability of Martial Arts stating a base line of what monk weapons are that restricts from the short bow or crossbow. Which actually makes many people forget they are even usable by Monks in the same way that any other character would. including myself at times. As i mentioned it to you and then I'm noticing I completely missed it when giving a defense in favor of the monk against Ranged Weapons in my reply to another.
That is a knock against the monk - no great feats to drastically increase damage. Kensei bow monks with tasha's optional rules can put sharpshooter to great use though. And with the addition of Crusher, that can be a great monk feat. It might not directly increase their own damage by a ton, but it does increase it some and also increases the whole parties damage.
Good points. I am actually falling in love with the idea of a speedy kensei sharpshooter who works like helicopter gunship or horse archer, just peppering the enemy with shots while running circles around them. Maybe take a 4 level dip into ranger. That could be fun, although a bit off meta.
If you're going to multiclass it, go scout rogue! Imagine how far you could kite enemies around! If my current character wasn't a monk I would totally do this build.
Sure, but if we are giving out the one AC item that isn't armor, why not give it out to the whole party? In which case, monks are still behind.
And I've seen arguments that monks should strongly consider taking the mobile feat to get around needing to spend ki and bonus actions on step of the wind. Or that they might want magic initiate for hex. There are plenty of feats monks might want to take too.
But isn't it kind of telling that your argument here is that monk players would still be driven to optimize? Why do other classes feel more able to swing a feat instead without suffering, and why is that a point in the monk's favor?
This is pretty subjective. Monk AC is fairly good and considering its other defensive options and mobility, they can survive just fine. At 14, you'll laugh as you pass almost every saving throw.
They gave a few more options for ki use, but Im not sure that is such a great thing. They already draw on ki for everything. And some things like the Quickened healing are just sort of squalid. 2 ki points to heal for 1 martial arts di as an action is really only beneficial as a way to spam healing before a short rest.
You're very much underestimating these new abilities, except the quickened healing one. That's not very good but healing in general in this game isn't great.
Consider how Ki-Fueled Attack and Focused aim work together. Lets say you nearly miss an enemy by 1, for 1 ki point you can turn it into a hit AND get another weapon attack. That's amazing. Throw that into your sharpshooter kensai and you've got amazing synergy. Even with a melee weapon it's going to be an upgrade from your usual unarmed bonus action attack. This is hard to quantify how much extra damage you're getting but it's considerable. Most turn hit into miss abilities are very limited. This is limited by your ki pool and honestly this might be the best use of ki.
Sure, but if we are giving out the one AC item that isn't armor, why not give it out to the whole party? In which case, monks are still behind.
And I've seen arguments that monks should strongly consider taking the mobile feat to get around needing to spend ki and bonus actions on step of the wind. Or that they might want magic initiate for hex. There are plenty of feats monks might want to take too.
But isn't it kind of telling that your argument here is that monk players would still be driven to optimize? Why do other classes feel more able to swing a feat instead without suffering, and why is that a point in the monk's favor?
This is pretty subjective. Monk AC is fairly good and considering its other defensive options and mobility, they can survive just fine. At 14, you'll laugh as you pass almost every saving throw.
They gave a few more options for ki use, but Im not sure that is such a great thing. They already draw on ki for everything. And some things like the Quickened healing are just sort of squalid. 2 ki points to heal for 1 martial arts di as an action is really only beneficial as a way to spam healing before a short rest.
You're very much underestimating these new abilities, except the quickened healing one. That's not very good but healing in general in this game isn't great.
Consider how Ki-Fueled Attack and Focused aim work together. Lets say you nearly miss an enemy by 1, for 1 ki point you can turn it into a hit AND get another weapon attack. That's amazing. Throw that into your sharpshooter kensai and you've got amazing synergy. Even with a melee weapon it's going to be an upgrade from your usual unarmed bonus action attack. This is hard to quantify how much extra damage you're getting but it's considerable. Most turn hit into miss abilities are very limited. This is limited by your ki pool and honestly this might be the best use of ki.
ok. I somehow missed the top comment that Lehrer here is responding to and I'm not sure where it's at to go back to it. But I listed two AC items. And when I listed those two items it was in comparison to giving the other Martial Classes Two items upgraded into magical items, and not only magical items, but more rare magical items than the one "universal" item. If the ring is given to everybody. That means i get to give the monk more items to make the Issue even close to fair. There's quite a few that I can pick from. Everything from a ring of invisibility, to a cloak of displacement, to an item that gives mirror image. Just because they are universal does not mean that everybody will have them, by demanding that they must be given to everybody in an example is actually just another way that arguments are being hand poorly applied to disfavor the monk in the original comment that Lehrer is responding to. I didn't even have to particularly optimize the monk in any examples that i gave. I only used base monk features that every monk will get without optimization, or has the same chance of access to. If I wanted to optimize I could even add feats to the monk. A 16 Dex and 16 Wis level 1 monk actually has An ASI that I can apply to another stat such as Con or I can use on a feat just about anywhere in the progression of the character.
However, Digging back through while I'm writing this to figure out what else I missed. the original Comment that Lehrer is responding to here is actually about the Bracers of Defense. This cannot be given to everybody and used equally by all martial classes. The Bracers of Defense have a specification that they only give their +2 armor while no armor or shield is worn. So it in fact does not benefit everybody in any universal way unless those other classes want to drop their armor completely in which case almost all of them are going to have woefully low armor classes even in comparison to most spell casters. It's almost as if this particular defensive magical item was made primarily with the monk in mind but with a versatility of usefulness that some other classes might find it useful too instead of making it pointless to receive as treasure. So no the Monk would not be behind again in relation to this item by giving it to everybody. this item actually on it's own diffuses most of the magical difference between the Magical +3 armor that other martials would be wearing and the monk's lack of ability to use said armor in this one item. Leaving only a +1 difference between the two when compared directly on a 1 to one bases.
The cold hard reality if your just making a direct comparison is that A Monk at Max Level and owning just this Item alone is going to have a 22 AC but they can pick this item up at a much much lower level, somewhere in the range the fighter would pick up his +1 or +2 armor. The fighter or other heavy armor martial character on the other hand wearing Purely +3 Platemail and not including a shield is Actually at 21 AC and Requires to use their Fighting Style on the Defensive Fighting Style to get 22 AC. So yet again the Monk is not the lowest AC of the Martial classes or somehow dramatically outpaced by gear drops for every other Martial Class that the Monk cannot take advantage of.
I keep explaining this stuff. But the end outcome doesn't actually change. Can we please all agree now that You have to build a Tank with Tank equipment and Tank features and Tank expectations and Tank Limitations to do a Tank's job better than a non-tank can do it?
I keep explaining this stuff. But the end outcome doesn't actually change. Can we please all agree now that You have to build a Tank with Tank equipment and Tank features and Tank expectations and Tank Limitations to do a Tank's job better than a non-tank can do it?
I agree with you. Is the monk the best "oops screwed around and accidentally became a tank" class in the game? The answer is yes.
That's the crux here -- to out-AC the monk at a low level with limited access to magic items (which is what I've been focused on, and one of the most common playstyles out there -- low level, not choose-your-own-magic-items world) another class would have to make sacrifices elsewhere. Paladins and Fighters are going to have to give up damage output. Barbarians are going to have to give up STR. Rangers are going to have to give up Stealth. Yes, the Monk won't be getting 18 AC until eighth level, but they also will still be able to sneak around and do max damage to their little monk heart's desire.
Other classes have to play towards higher AC. Monks get it just by being Monks.
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There is a reason that the Monk Crushes it. The monk is balanced around comparing to Martials using D10 weapons on average with right around the same damage output for basic attacks as that Fighter Wielding a Long Sword. Even with a Great Sword and superiority Die (which are limited), the Fighter is not doing radically different damage than a monk wielding a d8 weapon for part of it's attacks, or using flurry of Blows until you get into higher levels and in those higher levels most other martials have actually slowed a fair bit in gaining damage increases and the monk is actually branching out into secondary powers to add to their punches over just piling on raw damage but they still compete.
And nobody has argued that a fighter couldn't take the fighting style which is available to them natively and make decent use of it. We've only repeatedly made the point that the fighter is not better than the monk at doing what the monk does and it's not a sufficient advantage to the monk to go out of their way to get it for themselves for what it would cost them to do that.
For reference. I don't remember all of the numbers but i think it was with assuming something like a 75% hit accuracy the d10 of a long sword and the 2 unarmed attacks of the monk both actually average out to almost the same thing just because the monk would actually miss slightly more often with at least one attack so that over the long run it worked out to roughly the same thing. And when All the martial classes get their extra attack. The extra damage is actually spread out over all the monks attacks through the increased damage die rather than in just a single attack like all of the rest. Which is why they have a slowly ascending damage die over the course of their careers.
however I need to point out that your chart needs adjusting at level 1,2 and 3 for the monk as I have tried to edit above. The reason being that at level 1 for the monk They do still get a single bonus action attack that they can make even though they don't have flurry of blows yet thanks to martial arts. So you'd actually have 6 more damage over the 3 rounds using the simplified terms of the chart. This means that the Monk would actually do 12 damage over those same 3 turns as the Fighter did 12. When the Ki feature is gained the Monk starts with 2 ki and not one. So they would actually be able to flurry of Blows for 2 rounds and the third round a single bonus action attack at level 2 and 3 rounds of FoB at level 3. Giving them 16 and then 18 damage over those 3 turns. Which means the damage totals for those first three rounds are 12, 16, and 18 respectively. This means that the Monk actually beats out the Fighter by 2 average damage starting at turn 3 instead of turn 4.
(editing Note, Had to fix a point of my own math and my editing of the chart to try and keep it making sense)
Secondary Editing Note: I noticed you did not actually apply the full Action Surge to the Fighter. I didn't notice this my first few times but I went through and added the full range of attacks that the Action surge would have given you form level's 5-20 since it's a full unrestricted action and does gain the benefit of the Fighters Extra Attack feature as it evolves throughout it's levels. This means the damage between the two actually falls back more in line at high levels but it's through the shere large number of attacks both are making at d8 and larger dice pools and the shere power of having two Action Surges available at level 17 and above that are used without worry in two consecutive rounds for bursting that damage upwards. This however doesn't invalidate the original conclusion because the reality is that if the fight takes longer than three rounds than the monk would end up overtaking the fighter once more through sheer abundance of resources when purely spent on FoB as the levels go up where as the fighter has spent most of it's burst potential in the first two rounds.
I'm thinking the gap is going to be even larger with equal damage bonuses. I'll work on an exaggerated chart to look at it with +5 per hit to see what it all plays out like just in totals over the 3 rounds. What I came up with looks like this:
Level Fighter Attks Dmg Total Level Monk Attks Dmg Total
qualifying the unarmed strike as a weapon gives a major Advantage to Monks as well. There is a lot that could be applied that monks just can't currently use, at least on their unarmed strikes that would be useful if they could (and some lean on certain advice and grey areas of non-answer in the books to do just that). However the Fighter would not get a spike in damage from them being weapons because despite the fact that you have 2 fists your not actually dual wielding them since they still don't have the light property. Remember that the Monk does a special facsimile of dual weapon fighting through Martial Arts. just like it does a facsimile Finesse weapon trait onto their unarmed strikes to allow the choice between Strength or Dexterity to fight with. Turning them to weapons unfortunately doesn't do that, all it would do is make them simple weapons. Also keep in mind that the monk is actually capable of more damage than what our simple system has taken into account even without the change but we left that variable out for the sake of simplicity in comparison.
The number of attacks is slightly off for calculating the damage on your newest chart here. Between levels 5-10. The Fighter only gets 6 attacks (2 for each of the three rounds and 2 from Action Surge). 11-16 is the same 12 attacks that the Monk gets and at the same damage numbers (3 from each of the turns and 3 from action surge). Level 17-19 the Fighter is actually is making 15 total attacks (3 for each of the rounds 3 each from action surge in rounds 1 and 2), and at level 20 it's actually making a whopping 20 attacks (4 from each of the three rounds and 4 from action surge in rounds 1 and 2).
Assuming the +5 modifier on each of the attacks this means that each attack from the fighter at all levels is 9. So at levels 5-10 that would be 54 damage. At levels 11-16 that would be 108. Levels 17-19 would be 135. And level 20 would be an insane 180 damage. But this is all because of an almost utterly rediculous number of attacks in a very short period of time. In large part because of Action Surge.
The monks Damage however varies more and goes up more incrementally in more places. A single attack at level 1 is 7 damage which is actually slightly lower individually but it's spread over 6 attacks, 8 attacks at level 2 and 9 attacks at level 3 and 4. At level 5 the damage increases so it's 8 damage over what becomes the standard 12 attacks, At level 11 it's 9 damage, and at level 17 it's 10 damage.
So the Fighter does manages to come out ahead in damage with the +5 multiplier at the highest levels but it's because of the sheer crazy number of attacks that it's actually putting out rather than the damage of those attacks. And for each extra 3 turns it's damage actually erodes by 12 so the Fighters lead from those extra attacks actually dwindles as the fight wears on to push into the monks favor over time. But the early gap with the basic structure we are using and assuming all attacks hit causes the monk to overpower the fighter at the low levels. But this is not actually surprising.
The Monk is balanced to function equally well at basic attacks over most levels with d10 and d12 weapons as I think I stated before. Which puts the average damage of the Fighter at more like 10 or 11 using a +5 modifier and our basic math here.
(First off, apologies about the bonus action Dodge mistake. That was a last-second addon to my comment and I didn't go back to reread. My bad.)
Regarding that they "start off with lower AC", I'd like to see how you determine starting equipment. Here's a quick rundown of max AC for every martial class at level one, assuming optimized standard array stats and lineage ASIs, and using the highest AC options for starting equipment:
Monk: Our baseline, and as shown before it is easy to get 16 AC with a 15 in DEX (+1 with lineage ASI) and a 14 in WIS (+2 with lineage ASI), so 10+3+3 via Unarmored Defense at level one.
Barbarian: Unarmored Defense can easily grant 16 AC. Needs to go with the starting GP option and purchase a shield to improve past 16 AC. Keep in mind that +3 DEX and +3 CON means that our Barb is not as strong as one might like.
Fighter: Chain mail gets you to 16 AC but comes with downsides in minimum STR requirements and Stealth disadvantage. You'd need a shield to get above that, and then you'd have only handaxes as your weapons based on standard starting equipment. (Admittedly, an average 125 GP could get you chain, shield, and a better weapon.)
Paladin: Similar to a fighter, chain and shield come with it right away, so 16+2 for 18 AC. Comes with a martial weapon as well. (Dang, is there anything Paladins don't get?)
Ranger: Scale mail and 14 DEX can get to 16 AC. If you go the GP route then a shield can be purchased for 18 AC. Keep in mind that this also sacrifices Stealth.
Rogue: Leather armor at level one will likely max out at 14 AC (assuming +3 DEX). With GP you could get studded leather and 15 AC.
Martials can only exceed Monks' AC if they sacrifice several things (either weapon choices, or Stealth capabilities, or a hand devoted to a shield, etc). Monks get to a respectable 16 AC without sacrificing anything. And they can continue to increase their AC at no cost, without being beholden to what is available in their world. And they max out at 20 AC without any magic equipment without any STR requirements, without any Stealth disadvantage, and while keeping both hands free -- exactly what armor is going to max out at.
And if we are considering magic items for armor, then you have to consider Cloaks of Displacement and Rings of Protection for Monks as well, which can further boost AC past 20.
So a few things:
Small quibble first: fighters have a choice for a martial weapon and shield in their starting equipment, so they aren't stuck with a hand-axe.
And yes, 16 is what 4/5 martials can expect to start at before shields, fighting styles, or race/class feats (3/5 if we assume the barb would normally choose to put a 14 in dex). A well built monk can hang there 16 at the start, but never any higher without rolling for stats, unlike most other martials.
My main points are:
1. those who wear armor have a chance to increase their AC without an ASI, by 1-2 through mundane armor relatively easily. Later with enchanted armor, those bonuses grow without ever needing an ASI (although there are feats that can make armor better).
2. Yes, shields are a trade off, but Monk doesn't really even get the benefits of such a trade off. Those who forgo shields choose to do so for more powerful weapons and abilities, like sneak attack, Great Weapon Master, Sharpshooter, etc. Monk's don't really get a similar option until flurry of blows, but that has costs to use.
3. Finally, every other class gets other defensive abilities on top of their 16 AC, ie Rage, Second Wind, bonus action hide/disengage, healing hands, spellcasting, bigger hit dice. Monk gets step of the wind and patient defense at level 2, but it costs monks their bonus action and a ki point, things they are deeply dependent on. Ki points especially are very precious at low levels.
4. Even the somewhat squishy rogue and ranger can viably swap to a ranged fighting style for defensive play. But Martial Arts and Flurry of blows, as well as Monk's only D8 weapons being melee, pushes them to want to be close in combatants to be at their most effective.
I think Monks could get away with having more benefit without coming close to being broken.
Any specific benefits that you propose?
Well yes, if the fighter got monk features it'd be way better. If the monk got barbarian features it would also be way better.
I'm glad you see at least those benefits. This mean you're on Team Monk now?
16 is a good AC at level 1, especially with no shields. Are you saying that this is the max AC for a monk while max AC for some other classes using shields is 19 if the pick the defensive fighting style and use a shield? Doing that gives up a lot of offensive power. I guess monks don't the option to trade offense for more defense if that's what you're saying.
And a monk can use bracers of defense to increase it by 2. Monks are going to be putting ASIs in main stat for a lot of reasons, one of of which is AC. They'd likely still put it in main stat even if that weren't true.
That is a knock against the monk - no great feats to drastically increase damage. Kensei bow monks with tasha's optional rules can put sharpshooter to great use though. And with the addition of Crusher, that can be a great monk feat. It might not directly increase their own damage by a ton, but it does increase it some and also increases the whole parties damage.
Low levels it is an issue and they'll typically be saved for defense. At middle levels and up though I've found it's never an issue. Also - Rage, second wind, healing hands, and spellcasting also have limited uses.
A monk using tasha's rules can use a longbow as a monk weapon if they have proficiency. Like if they're an elf or something.
Tasha's did a lot to address some of the damage shortcomings of the class. Turning hits into misses and free bonus action weapon attacks if you've used a ki is fantastic. It's hard to directly show that on paper though.
The big thing would be disentangling some of the dependence upon ki and bonus actions. Maybe give them a 3rd attack at 11th level, make step of the wind free like the Rogue's cunning action, and maybe mix patient defense the martial arts attack or make it a reaction ki ability.
And throwing in an extra ASI or two to make them a little more customizable. Just a fun thing, and shouldn't mess with anything if its at the same levels as rogue.
But its hard to make too many changes without messing with stunning strike, which is theoretically strong. Im not the biggest fan of letting the class's identity revolve around a callback to previous editions' "trip monkey," where tripping enemies was about the only useful thing monks could do.
With what they got in Tasha's I think they're in a really good place. That said, I think letting them have the same ASI schedule as the rogue would be nice. I really don't think they need all that much to be competitive mechanically. They do need magic items that augment unarmed strikes though.
Sure, but if we are giving out the one AC item that isn't armor, why not give it out to the whole party? In which case, monks are still behind.
And I've seen arguments that monks should strongly consider taking the mobile feat to get around needing to spend ki and bonus actions on step of the wind. Or that they might want magic initiate for hex. There are plenty of feats monks might want to take too.
But isn't it kind of telling that your argument here is that monk players would still be driven to optimize? Why do other classes feel more able to swing a feat instead without suffering, and why is that a point in the monk's favor?
Good points. I am actually falling in love with the idea of a speedy kensei sharpshooter who works like helicopter gunship or horse archer, just peppering the enemy with shots while running circles around them. Maybe take a 4 level dip into ranger. That could be fun, although a bit off meta.
I appreciate that insight into how they work at higher levels. Ki is definitely less limiting as the pool grows. I've only played a monk up to level 6, so its useful to hear that it can get easier on that point.
But I will point out that while those abilities are also limited, they do not draw on the same one pool of resources that make those classes work defensively and offensively. A monk without ki points is just a dual wielding base fighter with a smaller hit die, until 17th level.
That is true, and Im glad they are trying to give monks more to work with on the edges like that. But its something the monk has to build towards from the start, and doesn't synergize with abilities like stunning strike and flurry of blows. At best, they'll only ever be as good as a 5th level fighter with the longbow.
Still, a better option than shortbow or throwing just one dart.
They gave a few more options for ki use, but Im not sure that is such a great thing. They already draw on ki for everything. And some things like the Quickened healing are just sort of squalid. 2 ki points to heal for 1 martial arts di as an action is really only beneficial as a way to spam healing before a short rest.
Clarifying on Tasha's Optional rules of a Long Bow.. an elf monk is always proficient with a long bow regardless of rules. It's not a martial art weapon though because it is a melee weapon.. but you can still use it with no penalty. Unless it's a melee attack with a throw property, you cannot follow up a ranged attack with a martial art strike, even as a Kensei.As a Kensei though, you can add additional damage with any ranged weapon as described in the subclass.You could argue that a Monk is just a dual wielding Fighter at level 1, sure... but you could also argue a Ranger and Paladin are basically Fighters without a Fighting Style at level 1, even though they have their own little low level abilities to start off with at that level. If you're starting in dungeon with no armor, weapons or equipment at level 1 though, I guarantee you that the Monk will do a better job taking out those Giant Rats even if the party finds that rusty sword or giant fimar bone that can be used as a makeshift warclub in the corner!
Level 2 - 5, all of the martial classes will begin to play differently. The problem with comparing AC and straight consistent damage on a round per round turn is you're missing the advantages of the Monk... their ability to run out and target a single creature and then get away before the mob comes down on them. They're not tanks, but they get decent enough HP and AC to get by for a round or two while in the thick of it. They've got the utility and mobility to GFTO when they get focused on.... and they've got great burst damage with Flurry of Blows and any other abilities from their subclass kit. With the exception of Rogues, once one of the other Martial Classes gets in the thick of it, they're stuck there unless they kill the targets threatening them, blow an action to disengage, or have something specifically from a subclass ability.
If you've EVER had to run from a fight against a significantly higher CR monster or you just aren't in the right shape to duke it out, the Rogue is probably the most likely to get out first, with the Monk being right behind him providing he has Ki Points still (even then Improved movement might give him the edge).
As for the expanded uses of Ki points in Tasha's optional rules. 100% agree... it's nice to have options, but they aren't ground breaking or necessary except for a few instances. Healing with 2 Ki points is kind of a waste, but if you need to make multiple short rests each day for a serious day of combat, sure.. use those Ki points to save your HD in the long run. 90% of the time though, you're still going to use your Ki Points for the other existing uses. Options are good, although you might not use them very often... the good thing is you don't have to Choose like Battlemaster Maneuvers or Sorcerer points, and you don't have to prepare to use them like spells
This is factually false. The Kensai has the ability to choose the Longbow and make it a Monk Weapon. The Kensai weapons ability calls out Long Bows specifically as a valid choice but they were a valid choice anyway because they do not have the Heavy or Special Properties. Being a Monk weapon you can indeed follow it up with a martial art strike because Monk weapons all qualify for martial arts. Martial Arts merely says that the attack to trigger the follow up bonus action attack or even Flurry of Blows need only be an unarmed strike or a monk weapon. It does not make any distinction between Melee or Ranged.
The Kensei shot in effect makes it however that instead of doing a melee martial arts strike after the attack instead applies your bonus unarmed attack straight to your ranged weapon attack without having to roll and additional attack, eventually even being able to apply it to both attacks. The downside being that doing this way the damage does not increase with your martial arts die.
The Second way to do unarmed martial arts strikes after shots with a Long Bow is the optional feature Dedicated Weapon assuming that the Monk has some way to have proficiency in the Long Bow to use Dedicated Weapon on it. But these can only be melee because you do not have the kensai specific ability.
Hmmm.. that's actually kind of an oddly written rule as well, Fateless... although I 100% think you're right. I always remember the first part of martial arts where it calls out a Monk Weapon as "Short Sword and any Simple Melee Weapon" and misinterpetted the Decidated Weapon as having the words Melee weapon in there somewhere.
In practice, a Monk is proficient in a Short Bow or Crossbow, but it is not a Monk Weapon unless he spends a Ki Point to make it a Monk Weapon... never thought of it that way....
Thanks for the correction
Martial Arts
At 1st level, your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of combat styles that use unarmed strikes and monk weapons, which are shortswords and any simple melee weapons that don’t have the two-handed or heavy property.
You gain the following benefits while you are unarmed or wielding only monk weapons and you aren’t wearing armor or wielding a shield: --etc, etc, etc.
Dedicated Weapon
2nd-level monk feature
You train yourself to use a variety of weapons as monk weapons, not just simple melee weapons and shortswords. Whenever you finish a short or long rest, you can touch one weapon, focus your ki on it, and then count that weapon as a monk weapon until you use this feature again.
1. This is a another surface level fallacy. Most of the Martials cannot in fact in crease their armor through their ASI's if they choose to meet these starting maximums through their level one stats like the monk can. And of those that can only the Barbarian can potentially do it as high as the Monk Can. But that actually means forgoing Magical armor and focusing in a tertiary stat to accomplish. So the point of them being able to raise it outside of ASI's doesn't matter because they cannot significantly raise it with them. The only other two that can even raise it marginally are the rogue (by 2 points) and the leather armor ranger (by 2 points). Any other ASI increases are only by those wearing Medium Armor or less and did not meet their optimal +dexterity to begin with.
2. I've said time and again and we have shown in various ways that the Monk is actually balanced against those Larger weapons. The Monk may not gain access to certain feats that work with those weapons however, Those feats are both Optional by the Rules and not necessarily taken by all the other martial classes for various reasons. Trying to lean back on them is again is a surface level misdirection. Also at the lowest levels to some extent that damage is needed to actually bring up the average damage of the martial classes that can use them to be fully competetive with the monk and the Rogue. They also come with their own balancing internal factor in the fact that to apply the extra damage the Martial needs to take a reduction in their attack modifier equal to the maximum attribute modifier which lessens their ability to hit to be able to do this increased damage. And it only truely pulls ahead by mid game and locks other martial classes entirely into damage where the monk is picking up a nice array of tricks on top of solid damage.
3. These other defensive abilities that you keep bringing up are also accounted for. The monk is going to take damage from less sources by the middle of Tier 2. It's resource pool is much higher than the other Martial Classes to fuel things like Patient Defense and Step of the Wind and increases at a much faster rate compared to any other resource from the other classes. Most of which are finite. On top of this these two are not actually the Monks only defenses like you keep claiming, Deflect Missiles is another Defense that costs no Ki to use and can easily become powerful to block even Sharp Shooter boosted shots and is even picked up at a very low level being able to actually block 7 damage from a ranged attack minimum when it is picked up at level 3 and scaling all the way up to a minimum of 26 damage at level 20. Finally Rage. It's far from a perfect defense even at low level where the Barbarian is likely going to take more damage much of the time than the monk is and it not always active. It is actually very easy for a Barbarian to end up taking damage without this protection. Particularly at low level and against things like a Ranged Attacker, which the Barbarian has no good weapons or ways to retaliate against or against things like traps and ambushes that can cause damage when the Barbarian has not yet had a chance to use their Rage.
4. Swapping styles for Safety does help the Rogue and the Ranger to some extent. But they also are not as mobile as the Monk is naturally. The rogue is the only class that can compete with the monk at most levels for mobility and only through constant use of it's bonus actions but the monk does quickly pull away. The Monk however has features that in many instances actually can negate the need to resort to a ranged style. With the ability to quickly close gaps and a built in protection against ranged attacks. Getting close is often not an issue for them. The only thing that might be a problem is a flying opponent and that is actually a problem for several of the martial classes with only mediocre answers at best to deal with on their own. However, Flying enemies are actually not the bulk of the threats in the game either and has a myriad of solutions to deal with adequately from spells that stop flying, adding flight to the monk as well, to engineering situations where flight is restricted at worst and impossible at best. So your bringing up a detriment that for the majority of the game is not necessarily a detriment and for the parts that are there are solutions for. Ranged is not some magical bullseye mcguffin that breaks everything despite attempts by a few to make it seem that way at times.
EDIT: Through being Reminded by Theredwind and his conversation in this same thread. There is additional information in favor of the Monk in regards to Ranged Combat. Something that is often missed or forgotten because we all get caught up in the monks powers and monk weapons. The Monk actually is fully proficient from Level 1 in both the short bow and the light Crossbow. Both of them are also both obtainable through the Monks Starting Weapons and the short bow is compatible with the Extra attack the monk recieves at level 5 as well as the Dexterity stat that the monk is already building up due to his other class abilities revolving around it's increases. Something that the Fighter, the Paladin, and even the Barbarian cannot actually say when they are attempting ranged combat. The only thing not automatically and immediately obtained are arrows. So you would have to purchase those in some way. Or perhaps collect all the ones that you catch through deflect arrows to be used in your bow when you really need ranged.
Since we've put a little basic math in this thread to show differences already. let's do just a little bit more. Let's talk about Deflect Missiles against a Ranged Attack. Let's talk max level for ease of practicality. +5 stat modifiers and a +3 Bow with Sharp Shooter for Good measure. Then we'll compare the Monk without any extra protection and with the two easily gotten protection's I mentioned before (ring of Protection and Bracers of Defense).
The archer with these stats will have a +14 to his attack Naturally (+6 proficiency, +5 stat, +3 weapon) but will only be able to shoot at a +9 to get the extra damage component of Sharp shooter. With the Monks AC at 20. This seems like a fairly easy shot. Requiring an 11 to hit so it's about 55% of the time. The Monk then uses it's reaction to Deflect Missiles for 1d10+5(stat modifier)+20 (level modifier). This is going to block a minimum of 26 damage, a basic average of 30 damage, and a Maximum Damage of 35. That Archer with it's bow is going to deal 1d8+5(stat modifier)+10(sharp shooter bonus damage). This means that it's going to do a minimum of 16 damage, A basic average of 19 damage, and a Maximum Damage of 23. This means that without some other damage increases even if the monk gets hit by this shot it is completely negated before the Monk even has to roll the dice. You need another 10 guaranteed damage on the archer to even make it basically even odds whether any damage at all will get through.
But we're not quite done here by the parameters I set at the start. Boosting the AC up to 23 on the Monk that same archer now only has a 40% chance roughly of even making the shot in the first place by requiring t least a 14 to be rolled and then the archer still has to have enough damage or manage to hit the Monk when it does not have a reaction for Deflect Missiles. The Average Archer often only has 2 shots (though a few have more through various means). This means that through Deflect Missiles and chance of hitting the monk in the first place the chances of actually striking the monk are low.
And this is all without even taking into account potential for combinations of defense abilities that other classes do not have. Such as the ability to force disadvantage on all shots taken at the monk while they are closing the gap to get into melee range. Good to Excellent saves in all categories in tier 4. High stat modifiers in both of the most common saves and proficiency in one of them at low levels. If monks had higher hitpoints or an easy time getting their constitution score high they would likely be considered OP to take on. It's only through the whole surface level glances and perceptions and in some cases seeming refusal to actually analyze and look at the facts that the monk is considered weak and requiring buffing.
It's understandable to come to your conclusion, And I've been reminded that i should say the way I responded was not meant to be harsh. I don't necessarily notice when i come off that way when I am making responses as I don't catch all tonal queues. Even my own.
But yes. it's a quirk of specificity between different powers. Kensai make one distinction by adding in martial weapons and specifically the Long Bow as a point of crystal clarity they seemed to need stating. And Dedicated Weapon seems to draw more off the wording of the Kensai than the martial arts which is why some feel it steps on the Kensai's toes. Though the Kensai still has a weapon versatility not present even with Dedicated Weapon.
It's only the most general ability of Martial Arts stating a base line of what monk weapons are that restricts from the short bow or crossbow. Which actually makes many people forget they are even usable by Monks in the same way that any other character would. including myself at times. As i mentioned it to you and then I'm noticing I completely missed it when giving a defense in favor of the monk against Ranged Weapons in my reply to another.
If you're going to multiclass it, go scout rogue! Imagine how far you could kite enemies around! If my current character wasn't a monk I would totally do this build.
This is pretty subjective. Monk AC is fairly good and considering its other defensive options and mobility, they can survive just fine. At 14, you'll laugh as you pass almost every saving throw.
You're very much underestimating these new abilities, except the quickened healing one. That's not very good but healing in general in this game isn't great.
Consider how Ki-Fueled Attack and Focused aim work together. Lets say you nearly miss an enemy by 1, for 1 ki point you can turn it into a hit AND get another weapon attack. That's amazing. Throw that into your sharpshooter kensai and you've got amazing synergy. Even with a melee weapon it's going to be an upgrade from your usual unarmed bonus action attack. This is hard to quantify how much extra damage you're getting but it's considerable. Most turn hit into miss abilities are very limited. This is limited by your ki pool and honestly this might be the best use of ki.
ok. I somehow missed the top comment that Lehrer here is responding to and I'm not sure where it's at to go back to it. But I listed two AC items. And when I listed those two items it was in comparison to giving the other Martial Classes Two items upgraded into magical items, and not only magical items, but more rare magical items than the one "universal" item. If the ring is given to everybody. That means i get to give the monk more items to make the Issue even close to fair. There's quite a few that I can pick from. Everything from a ring of invisibility, to a cloak of displacement, to an item that gives mirror image. Just because they are universal does not mean that everybody will have them, by demanding that they must be given to everybody in an example is actually just another way that arguments are being hand poorly applied to disfavor the monk in the original comment that Lehrer is responding to. I didn't even have to particularly optimize the monk in any examples that i gave. I only used base monk features that every monk will get without optimization, or has the same chance of access to. If I wanted to optimize I could even add feats to the monk. A 16 Dex and 16 Wis level 1 monk actually has An ASI that I can apply to another stat such as Con or I can use on a feat just about anywhere in the progression of the character.
However, Digging back through while I'm writing this to figure out what else I missed. the original Comment that Lehrer is responding to here is actually about the Bracers of Defense. This cannot be given to everybody and used equally by all martial classes. The Bracers of Defense have a specification that they only give their +2 armor while no armor or shield is worn. So it in fact does not benefit everybody in any universal way unless those other classes want to drop their armor completely in which case almost all of them are going to have woefully low armor classes even in comparison to most spell casters. It's almost as if this particular defensive magical item was made primarily with the monk in mind but with a versatility of usefulness that some other classes might find it useful too instead of making it pointless to receive as treasure. So no the Monk would not be behind again in relation to this item by giving it to everybody. this item actually on it's own diffuses most of the magical difference between the Magical +3 armor that other martials would be wearing and the monk's lack of ability to use said armor in this one item. Leaving only a +1 difference between the two when compared directly on a 1 to one bases.
The cold hard reality if your just making a direct comparison is that A Monk at Max Level and owning just this Item alone is going to have a 22 AC but they can pick this item up at a much much lower level, somewhere in the range the fighter would pick up his +1 or +2 armor. The fighter or other heavy armor martial character on the other hand wearing Purely +3 Platemail and not including a shield is Actually at 21 AC and Requires to use their Fighting Style on the Defensive Fighting Style to get 22 AC. So yet again the Monk is not the lowest AC of the Martial classes or somehow dramatically outpaced by gear drops for every other Martial Class that the Monk cannot take advantage of.
I keep explaining this stuff. But the end outcome doesn't actually change. Can we please all agree now that You have to build a Tank with Tank equipment and Tank features and Tank expectations and Tank Limitations to do a Tank's job better than a non-tank can do it?
I agree with you. Is the monk the best "oops screwed around and accidentally became a tank" class in the game? The answer is yes.
That's the crux here -- to out-AC the monk at a low level with limited access to magic items (which is what I've been focused on, and one of the most common playstyles out there -- low level, not choose-your-own-magic-items world) another class would have to make sacrifices elsewhere. Paladins and Fighters are going to have to give up damage output. Barbarians are going to have to give up STR. Rangers are going to have to give up Stealth. Yes, the Monk won't be getting 18 AC until eighth level, but they also will still be able to sneak around and do max damage to their little monk heart's desire.
Other classes have to play towards higher AC. Monks get it just by being Monks.