"Monks are good at damage" really shouldn't surprise anyone either... Espeically not post-tasha's.
Monks are good all around....the way I state them to new players is: They have a high floor but a lower ceiling. Especially if you want to use feats.
They have a higher floor than most classes as they have so many different things they can do they are always useful in combat. You will always be adding to the fight and never subtracting from it unless you are trying to do so.
Their ceiling is lower because at 11th level they do fall behind on damage when the other martials get their big bad stuff (Fighter 3rd attack, 3rd level spells for ranger, Paladin improved divine smite, etc...)
This can be easily fixed with some magic weapon additions if your monk player wants to focus on damage or they can do the stun game and focus on WIS.
Overall the drop in damage is not huge but it is noticeable....but as a monk you are more about doing a lot of things well and not one thing amazing.
"Monks are good at damage" really shouldn't surprise anyone either... Espeically not post-tasha's.
Monks are good all around....the way I state them to new players is: They have a high floor but a lower ceiling. Especially if you want to use feats.
They have a higher floor than most classes as they have so many different things they can do they are always useful in combat. You will always be adding to the fight and never subtracting from it unless you are trying to do so.
Their ceiling is lower because at 11th level they do fall behind on damage when the other martials get their big bad stuff (Fighter 3rd attack, 3rd level spells for ranger, Paladin improved divine smite, etc...)
This can be easily fixed with some magic weapon additions if your monk player wants to focus on damage or they can do the stun game and focus on WIS.
Overall the drop in damage is not huge but it is noticeable....but as a monk you are more about doing a lot of things well and not one thing amazing.
Monks don't actually suffer significant damage drops until 4th tier. Everybody claims damage drops from different classes at level 11 that aren't really there. And what Monks gain in defensive ability in the third tier and into the 4th tier is more than a trade off when that damage difference does hit.
My Monk, now at 9, is starting already to lag a little in damage output. Open Hand, if that makes a lot of difference to some, but nonetheless, the simple base damage we can deal is a little limited compared to the others options, so I expect it somewhat. I have 16 Wis, to grant a 15 DC, and 18 Dex, for a good bonus to flat damage. I plan to use the next ASI to bump my Wis again, as my stuns are going to be more effective to the fights than the 1 extra damage. I know there's the argument that you need to hit to generate the save, but frankly, I am hitting as often or more than the Fighter and Barbarian % wise, so making contact isn't as big an issue. Our DM has been great, giving me a nice staff that builds charges on a kill, which i can release as an action for self-healing, and when I hit on an attack, it steals their reaction, allowing me to not have to spend Ki if I want to disengage and get some range. I also got an amulet to boost AC and a ring that will allow me a reaction attack when hit.
The other martial classes do have a wider range of magical toys that fit them, which is where the damage gap comes from, IMO. I am a little tired of his mechanic because I am always behind on the DC, so landing stuns is tough, although again, I have on occasion landed stuff that they fail a DC and it tips the fight. Booted a foe off a ledge with FoB, stunned a boss for 2 rounds in another fight, and we still ended up with someone dropping unconscious. Funniest part of my situation is that while I am tired of his mechanics, I am in LOVE with who this guy became. I gave him a basic personality, fairly book knowledgeable having read a ton of stuff, but no practical understanding or anything to balance it. Wide-eyed innocent, who turned street wary quickly and still has the innocence of naiveite about him.
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Talk to your Players.Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
My Monk, now at 9, is starting already to lag a little in damage output. Open Hand, if that makes a lot of difference to some, but nonetheless, the simple base damage we can deal is a little limited compared to the others options, so I expect it somewhat. I have 16 Wis, to grant a 15 DC, and 18 Dex, for a good bonus to flat damage. I plan to use the next ASI to bump my Wis again, as my stuns are going to be more effective to the fights than the 1 extra damage. I know there's the argument that you need to hit to generate the save, but frankly, I am hitting as often or more than the Fighter and Barbarian % wise, so making contact isn't as big an issue. Our DM has been great, giving me a nice staff that builds charges on a kill, which i can release as an action for self-healing, and when I hit on an attack, it steals their reaction, allowing me to not have to spend Ki if I want to disengage and get some range. I also got an amulet to boost AC and a ring that will allow me a reaction attack when hit.
The other martial classes do have a wider range of magical toys that fit them, which is where the damage gap comes from, IMO. I am a little tired of his mechanic because I am always behind on the DC, so landing stuns is tough, although again, I have on occasion landed stuff that they fail a DC and it tips the fight. Booted a foe off a ledge with FoB, stunned a boss for 2 rounds in another fight, and we still ended up with someone dropping unconscious. Funniest part of my situation is that while I am tired of his mechanics, I am in LOVE with who this guy became. I gave him a basic personality, fairly book knowledgeable having read a ton of stuff, but no practical understanding or anything to balance it. Wide-eyed innocent, who turned street wary quickly and still has the innocence of naiveite about him.
One thing to keep in mind is that a big part of Open Palms kit is shoving people around. They don't necessarily have to disengage as much if people are suddenly not standing next to them anymore. Open Hand can also just automatically steal the Reactions of enemies if you don't want to move them around or knock them prone with your FoB. And because it is triggered by your FoB it's possible to affect two targets at once on any given turn in these ways. The nice thing about the killing their reaction part of Open Hand Technique is that there is no save for it. it shuts down anything in this way, from tiny little faerie creatures to great big dragons and demon lords.
You've already learned one advanced lesson about Monks that Dexterity isn't everything and Wisdom can be vitally important. Specially if your wanting to rely on stunning strike. it does better with wis than dex. You don't need to hit as often if you don't have to try nearly as many times to get the stuns to land on average. The other part of that lesson is learning what might be best to stun or when to expect to need a lot more tries.
An Open Palm monk is also going to lag in damage a little bit sooner. Part of this is because They get survivability options sooner than the average monk. they aren't the greatest but that is because Open Palms Bread and butter is really given to you at level 3. It's the Open Palm Technique and all the ways you can control enemies through it and while somebody else may roll the big numbers from certain parts of it. Those damage numbers in reality are partly yours when you do things like knock an enemy prone or Stun it into uselessness to facilitate those GWM's and the like of the Fighter and the Barbarian to hit more often. They may get that glory but that Glory only exists because of you and that is an important thing to remember when playing something like a Monk. That being said. On any turn that your not using Flurry of Blows and you meet the requirement. You should indeed be using Ki Fueled strike if your DM allows it (at least until level 11) because this will increase your damage a bit and your various things you get from the staff. This is because doing three full Weapon Attacks will help you a bit more if your looking for damage than the 2 1/2 to 2 3/4 that your doing with an unarmed attack. Though as an open palm monk I personally would have preferred it to store damage to strike back with on occasion rather than converting energy into healing. But that's a personal preference. The Healing may indeed be a lot more valuable with the party that your describing with several front liners and skirmishers.
Some other monks follow the same philosophy of getting something Defense earlier to a degree. Mercy Inflicts the Poisoned condition which is going to lessen damage to the party. Astral Self gets to see through magical darkness which is effectively both defensive and offensive in a way. And Long Death has the potential to mitigate or shut down enemy assaults through causing fear (though it has a friendly fire aspect).
But several others get various additions to how they can do damage or the amount of damage they do at 6th level which pushes things along. Shadow Monks get their teleport and advantage to their next attack which helps them reach enemies and potentially hit a little more, Drunken Master learns how to redirect enemies missed attacks which effectively can be more damage to the enemy. 4 elements gets another Discipline and most of them deal damage in some way as well as more ki they can spend when using each discipline which almost always equates to just outright more damage on many disciplines. Kensai gets their deft Strike, and Sun Soul gets their Searing Arc (though this isn't much except when it hits several)
The figher 1d8 for unarmed fighting style was poor rule conception. It be should by 1d4 and more match the brawler feet. I would certainly be reducing it to that in my campaign, maybe raising it to 1d6 at 11th level. Also, the fighter's fists aren't magic weapons which helps a bit.
The figher 1d8 for unarmed fighting style was poor rule conception. It be should by 1d4 and more match the brawler feet. I would certainly be reducing it to that in my campaign, maybe raising it to 1d6 at 11th level. Also, the fighter's fists aren't magic weapons which helps a bit.
Spending a fighting style for a 1d4 attack sounds really bad.
You also get the 1d4 bonus damage if you have the opponent grappled, I think it's in line with the other fighting styles and doesn't overshadow the monk. I used to play the grapple build with feats as a fighter and it is powerful enough.
You also get the 1d4 bonus damage if you have the opponent grappled, I think it's in line with the other fighting styles and doesn't overshadow the monk. I used to play the grapple build with feats as a fighter and it is powerful enough.
It doesn't overshadow the monk anyway.
And what your suggesting sounds more like a redesign to the Grappler feat than anything.
I think it's in line with the other fighting styles and doesn't overshadow the monk.
It's barely in line with other fighting styles as written.
Like, it's a neat option insofar as that it enables a concept that's impossible without it, but in terms of mechanical oomph... 1d8 damage is standard for a one-handed martial weapon, which any fighter could just use instead without spending their fighting style.
Which pretty much just leaves the 1d4 when maintaining a grapple as your real benefit. Not the worst thing ever, but our friend with the longsword or battle-axe could grab dueling style and get +2 damage every time they hit something. The unarmed damage requires you to grapple things and make sure those grapples last to milk the value out of it, while the dueling damage just wants you to attack a lot. There's nothing really jaw droppingly overpowered about the former of the two (if anything, you could probably argue it needs some high level improvement, since dueling scales with extra attack).
One of the big selling points I see for the Monk is the idea that the party should be stripped of everything and imprisoned like, at least every other session. And in that scenario, the monk can shine because they haven't really lost much of their ability to fight. But if the fighter can deal decent unarmed damage, that really steps on the toes of the Monk as the "let me fight you with my shirt off" class.
If you look at a Monk's kit (not including specific Monistic Tradition features), only like 4-5 of their features are actually tied to unarmed fighting. While it is a cornerstone of playing a monk, its not all that there is to it. A bunch of monk features are dedicated to mobility (Unarmored movement, Slow Fall, etc) and survivability (Deflect Missile, Evasion, Diamond Soul, Purity of Body, etc). Even if another member of the party can make strong unarmed strikes, they are still a long ways off from overshadowing what a monk can do as a whole
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Nothing new here, 5e is all about classes crossing those stereotypical boundaries. I've played a monk who can go toe to toe with the fighter when it comes to front line survivability as well. A class is what you make of it nowadays, not just the 30y old stereotypes.
If you look at a Monk's kit (not including specific Monistic Tradition features), only like 4-5 of their features are actually tied to unarmed fighting. While it is a cornerstone of playing a monk, its not all that there is to it. A bunch of monk features are dedicated to mobility (Unarmored movement, Slow Fall, etc) and survivability (Deflect Missile, Evasion, Diamond Soul, Purity of Body, etc). Even if another member of the party can make strong unarmed strikes, they are still a long ways off from overshadowing what a monk can do as a whole
Most of them aren't even really in all that much danger of overshadowing them just in unarmed strikes either. But people like to make surface level comparisons and declare one better. Which has caused most of this thread, and a lot of perception about monks really.
I didn't say a fighter with this fighting style would just straight up outshine a monk. At least not if they are in a naked prison break situation. Although, thinking about fighter abilities, it'd be a pretty close match up in terms of damage after level 5.
It really isn't close until level 20. 1-4, monk does way more damage when not using Flurry of Blows. Like 50% more. At 5, it's like 30% more. 10 is about 20%. At level 11, they'll do about identical average damage except the monk can use flurry of blows pretty much every round if the monk wants by that point pushing the comparison well into the monks favor again. At 20, while the monk uses Flurry of Blows, the monk will still be doing about 11% more damage. When not, will be doing about 17% less but by that point pretty much can always do be using flurry of blows.
If the fighter uses Action surge, that is one round where the fighter will do a fair amount more damage - around 30% more at level 11 compared to the monk using Flurry of Blows, for example.
I can't believe i got sucked back into this thread!
Gotta consider that the Monk is only swinging a d4 until 5th level, and only a d6 until lvl 11.
Also, ki is still a finite resource, especially so at lower levels. Not to mention they might need their ki and bonus action for something else.
Then the damage bonuses the fighter can do on hit for their subclass if they are a battle master, psi warrior, or Rune Knight.
And a Fighter can pump their strength quicker than a Monk can focus on increasing Dex, and do not have a secondary stat they need to increase.
But none of this is saying that the Fighter would just be better flat out while naked. Just that they would be hitting in the same league for those rare times they are oiled up and thrown into a nude boxing match.
Gotta consider that the Monk is only swinging a d4 until 5th level, and only a d6 until lvl 11.
I included this in my assessment.
Also, ki is still a finite resource, especially so at lower levels. Not to mention they might need their ki and bonus action for something else.
It is finite, but for the most part I excluded it from my analysis except at high levels where ki is abundant. Also, more options is a good thing. You're right, they can choose to be more tanky or get out of a sticky situation. That's not a knock against it.
Then the damage bonuses the fighter can do on hit for their subclass if they are a battle master, psi warrior, or Rune Knight.
I didn't consider this but those damage increases are finite and also can be used for other things. Also, most of the battle master maneuvers require a weapon attack, which your unarmed strikes do not count as. Psi warrior damage increase also requires a weapon attack. I think Rune Knights also require attacks with weapons.
And a Fighter can pump their strength quicker than a Monk can focus on increasing Dex, and do not have a secondary stat they need to increase.
I accounted for this in my analysis.
But none of this is saying that the Fighter would just be better flat out while naked. Just that they would be hitting in the same league for those rare times they are oiled up and thrown into a nude boxing match.
And a Fighter can pump their strength quicker than a Monk can focus on increasing Dex, and do not have a secondary stat they need to increase.
I accounted for this in my analysis.
Fighters do not really gain strength in any significant numbers faster than Monks can gain Dex. Primarily because the maximum is so low and they are so close to that maximum to start with. They are both going to start at +3 to +4 range normally depending on a few factors. And they are both can quite easily increase those primary stats at level 4. This means that the Fighter gains it's advantage at level 6. but it's not really an advantage because at level 5 the Monk increased a die size meaning that it's average damage already went up by that +1 at level 5 and the Fighter is just balancing out with it's strength increase at 6. But then It's going to fall behind in the basic math again at level 8 when the Monk increases to match the 20 in an attribute.
At a glance there is some kind of disparity or edge for the fighter but the reality is that it's just not there when it comes to unarmed fighting. And it's just not worth it to the monk to try and use a feat to pick up because they have ways to approximate most or all of the percieved increase with their natural kit anyway.
It's been said multiple times, but the role of a monk in the party is different than a melee fighter.
Monks can much more readily choose who to fight and when to disengage. Melee fighters wilm generally plant themselves on the frontline holding the line and trading blows. An unarmed fighter type will probably be making better use of grapples and keeping targets from moving freely, but does not necessarily have to do this.
Monks can much more readily choose who to target beyond the front line, and have a means of gtfo when things get hairy. An Astral Self Monk can successfully grapple without too many issues, but this, like the unarmed fighter is a niche build.
The damage output should not be comparison to make between classes, unarmed or not. Monks dont always mesh with every party, but when they do, their mobility really shines.
Having gotten into a few more scraps with my now level 9 Monk, I have observed a shift in where my most valuable contributions are. In the earlier game, up to around level 7, my damage was on par or above the other 2 melee in our group (Barbarian-Berserker and Fighter-Champion) in most fights. I used a few stuns on more dangerous foes, but spent most of my Ki on FoB for the extra strike. My damage output was enough, compared to our enemies HP, to be worth more to take them down fast, than to lock them up, or mess with their fighting tactics. Moving up, my use of Ki is more focused on stuns, for enemies that should have a lower Con, or knocking them prone (Dex save) to give my allies advantage on their strikes, or in a couple cases, knocking them back (Str check) over the edge of an impressive drop.
I think the biggest thing I see is that my damage has increased from earlier levels (improved Martial Arts die, better hit chance etc) but more slowly than the other classes (wider range of weapon choices for bigger boosts) Here is where the Unarmed Fighter and the Monk diverge a fair bit. My Monk now fights with more care and precision, choosing a foe to stun, or knock over, or sometimes using a Ki point to take a dodge stance and give one more option for them to try and hit (mitigate some attack damage) The Monk skills offer these options, where the Unarmed Fighter is still kind of stuck in the groove of dealing (and likely taking) damage. Grappling tactics can certainly be a big help, too, so don't misunderstand that I am dismissing it as an option, but I am saying that the Monk class is different to the Fighter class, so really comparing one facet of them (damage output) doesn't make any more sense than comparing a Barbarian to a Paladin. They share the notion that they deal melee damage, but the rest of the class doesn't DO the same stuff.
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Monks are good all around....the way I state them to new players is: They have a high floor but a lower ceiling. Especially if you want to use feats.
They have a higher floor than most classes as they have so many different things they can do they are always useful in combat. You will always be adding to the fight and never subtracting from it unless you are trying to do so.
Their ceiling is lower because at 11th level they do fall behind on damage when the other martials get their big bad stuff (Fighter 3rd attack, 3rd level spells for ranger, Paladin improved divine smite, etc...)
This can be easily fixed with some magic weapon additions if your monk player wants to focus on damage or they can do the stun game and focus on WIS.
Overall the drop in damage is not huge but it is noticeable....but as a monk you are more about doing a lot of things well and not one thing amazing.
Monks don't actually suffer significant damage drops until 4th tier. Everybody claims damage drops from different classes at level 11 that aren't really there. And what Monks gain in defensive ability in the third tier and into the 4th tier is more than a trade off when that damage difference does hit.
My Monk, now at 9, is starting already to lag a little in damage output. Open Hand, if that makes a lot of difference to some, but nonetheless, the simple base damage we can deal is a little limited compared to the others options, so I expect it somewhat. I have 16 Wis, to grant a 15 DC, and 18 Dex, for a good bonus to flat damage. I plan to use the next ASI to bump my Wis again, as my stuns are going to be more effective to the fights than the 1 extra damage. I know there's the argument that you need to hit to generate the save, but frankly, I am hitting as often or more than the Fighter and Barbarian % wise, so making contact isn't as big an issue. Our DM has been great, giving me a nice staff that builds charges on a kill, which i can release as an action for self-healing, and when I hit on an attack, it steals their reaction, allowing me to not have to spend Ki if I want to disengage and get some range. I also got an amulet to boost AC and a ring that will allow me a reaction attack when hit.
The other martial classes do have a wider range of magical toys that fit them, which is where the damage gap comes from, IMO. I am a little tired of his mechanic because I am always behind on the DC, so landing stuns is tough, although again, I have on occasion landed stuff that they fail a DC and it tips the fight. Booted a foe off a ledge with FoB, stunned a boss for 2 rounds in another fight, and we still ended up with someone dropping unconscious. Funniest part of my situation is that while I am tired of his mechanics, I am in LOVE with who this guy became. I gave him a basic personality, fairly book knowledgeable having read a ton of stuff, but no practical understanding or anything to balance it. Wide-eyed innocent, who turned street wary quickly and still has the innocence of naiveite about him.
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
One thing to keep in mind is that a big part of Open Palms kit is shoving people around. They don't necessarily have to disengage as much if people are suddenly not standing next to them anymore. Open Hand can also just automatically steal the Reactions of enemies if you don't want to move them around or knock them prone with your FoB. And because it is triggered by your FoB it's possible to affect two targets at once on any given turn in these ways. The nice thing about the killing their reaction part of Open Hand Technique is that there is no save for it. it shuts down anything in this way, from tiny little faerie creatures to great big dragons and demon lords.
You've already learned one advanced lesson about Monks that Dexterity isn't everything and Wisdom can be vitally important. Specially if your wanting to rely on stunning strike. it does better with wis than dex. You don't need to hit as often if you don't have to try nearly as many times to get the stuns to land on average. The other part of that lesson is learning what might be best to stun or when to expect to need a lot more tries.
An Open Palm monk is also going to lag in damage a little bit sooner. Part of this is because They get survivability options sooner than the average monk. they aren't the greatest but that is because Open Palms Bread and butter is really given to you at level 3. It's the Open Palm Technique and all the ways you can control enemies through it and while somebody else may roll the big numbers from certain parts of it. Those damage numbers in reality are partly yours when you do things like knock an enemy prone or Stun it into uselessness to facilitate those GWM's and the like of the Fighter and the Barbarian to hit more often. They may get that glory but that Glory only exists because of you and that is an important thing to remember when playing something like a Monk. That being said. On any turn that your not using Flurry of Blows and you meet the requirement. You should indeed be using Ki Fueled strike if your DM allows it (at least until level 11) because this will increase your damage a bit and your various things you get from the staff. This is because doing three full Weapon Attacks will help you a bit more if your looking for damage than the 2 1/2 to 2 3/4 that your doing with an unarmed attack. Though as an open palm monk I personally would have preferred it to store damage to strike back with on occasion rather than converting energy into healing. But that's a personal preference. The Healing may indeed be a lot more valuable with the party that your describing with several front liners and skirmishers.
Some other monks follow the same philosophy of getting something Defense earlier to a degree. Mercy Inflicts the Poisoned condition which is going to lessen damage to the party. Astral Self gets to see through magical darkness which is effectively both defensive and offensive in a way. And Long Death has the potential to mitigate or shut down enemy assaults through causing fear (though it has a friendly fire aspect).
But several others get various additions to how they can do damage or the amount of damage they do at 6th level which pushes things along. Shadow Monks get their teleport and advantage to their next attack which helps them reach enemies and potentially hit a little more, Drunken Master learns how to redirect enemies missed attacks which effectively can be more damage to the enemy. 4 elements gets another Discipline and most of them deal damage in some way as well as more ki they can spend when using each discipline which almost always equates to just outright more damage on many disciplines. Kensai gets their deft Strike, and Sun Soul gets their Searing Arc (though this isn't much except when it hits several)
The figher 1d8 for unarmed fighting style was poor rule conception. It be should by 1d4 and more match the brawler feet. I would certainly be reducing it to that in my campaign, maybe raising it to 1d6 at 11th level. Also, the fighter's fists aren't magic weapons which helps a bit.
Spending a fighting style for a 1d4 attack sounds really bad.
You also get the 1d4 bonus damage if you have the opponent grappled, I think it's in line with the other fighting styles and doesn't overshadow the monk. I used to play the grapple build with feats as a fighter and it is powerful enough.
It doesn't overshadow the monk anyway.
And what your suggesting sounds more like a redesign to the Grappler feat than anything.
It's barely in line with other fighting styles as written.
Like, it's a neat option insofar as that it enables a concept that's impossible without it, but in terms of mechanical oomph... 1d8 damage is standard for a one-handed martial weapon, which any fighter could just use instead without spending their fighting style.
Which pretty much just leaves the 1d4 when maintaining a grapple as your real benefit. Not the worst thing ever, but our friend with the longsword or battle-axe could grab dueling style and get +2 damage every time they hit something. The unarmed damage requires you to grapple things and make sure those grapples last to milk the value out of it, while the dueling damage just wants you to attack a lot. There's nothing really jaw droppingly overpowered about the former of the two (if anything, you could probably argue it needs some high level improvement, since dueling scales with extra attack).
It's a neat option, nothing more or less.
One of the big selling points I see for the Monk is the idea that the party should be stripped of everything and imprisoned like, at least every other session. And in that scenario, the monk can shine because they haven't really lost much of their ability to fight. But if the fighter can deal decent unarmed damage, that really steps on the toes of the Monk as the "let me fight you with my shirt off" class.
If you look at a Monk's kit (not including specific Monistic Tradition features), only like 4-5 of their features are actually tied to unarmed fighting. While it is a cornerstone of playing a monk, its not all that there is to it. A bunch of monk features are dedicated to mobility (Unarmored movement, Slow Fall, etc) and survivability (Deflect Missile, Evasion, Diamond Soul, Purity of Body, etc). Even if another member of the party can make strong unarmed strikes, they are still a long ways off from overshadowing what a monk can do as a whole
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
Nothing new here, 5e is all about classes crossing those stereotypical boundaries. I've played a monk who can go toe to toe with the fighter when it comes to front line survivability as well. A class is what you make of it nowadays, not just the 30y old stereotypes.
Most of them aren't even really in all that much danger of overshadowing them just in unarmed strikes either. But people like to make surface level comparisons and declare one better. Which has caused most of this thread, and a lot of perception about monks really.
I didn't say a fighter with this fighting style would just straight up outshine a monk. At least not if they are in a naked prison break situation. Although, thinking about fighter abilities, it'd be a pretty close match up in terms of damage after level 5.
It really isn't close until level 20. 1-4, monk does way more damage when not using Flurry of Blows. Like 50% more. At 5, it's like 30% more. 10 is about 20%. At level 11, they'll do about identical average damage except the monk can use flurry of blows pretty much every round if the monk wants by that point pushing the comparison well into the monks favor again. At 20, while the monk uses Flurry of Blows, the monk will still be doing about 11% more damage. When not, will be doing about 17% less but by that point pretty much can always do be using flurry of blows.
If the fighter uses Action surge, that is one round where the fighter will do a fair amount more damage - around 30% more at level 11 compared to the monk using Flurry of Blows, for example.
I can't believe i got sucked back into this thread!
Gotta consider that the Monk is only swinging a d4 until 5th level, and only a d6 until lvl 11.
Also, ki is still a finite resource, especially so at lower levels. Not to mention they might need their ki and bonus action for something else.
Then the damage bonuses the fighter can do on hit for their subclass if they are a battle master, psi warrior, or Rune Knight.
And a Fighter can pump their strength quicker than a Monk can focus on increasing Dex, and do not have a secondary stat they need to increase.
But none of this is saying that the Fighter would just be better flat out while naked. Just that they would be hitting in the same league for those rare times they are oiled up and thrown into a nude boxing match.
I included this in my assessment.
It is finite, but for the most part I excluded it from my analysis except at high levels where ki is abundant. Also, more options is a good thing. You're right, they can choose to be more tanky or get out of a sticky situation. That's not a knock against it.
I didn't consider this but those damage increases are finite and also can be used for other things. Also, most of the battle master maneuvers require a weapon attack, which your unarmed strikes do not count as. Psi warrior damage increase also requires a weapon attack. I think Rune Knights also require attacks with weapons.
I accounted for this in my analysis.
They're really not hitting in the same league.
And a Fighter can pump their strength quicker than a Monk can focus on increasing Dex, and do not have a secondary stat they need to increase.
I accounted for this in my analysis.
Fighters do not really gain strength in any significant numbers faster than Monks can gain Dex. Primarily because the maximum is so low and they are so close to that maximum to start with. They are both going to start at +3 to +4 range normally depending on a few factors. And they are both can quite easily increase those primary stats at level 4. This means that the Fighter gains it's advantage at level 6. but it's not really an advantage because at level 5 the Monk increased a die size meaning that it's average damage already went up by that +1 at level 5 and the Fighter is just balancing out with it's strength increase at 6. But then It's going to fall behind in the basic math again at level 8 when the Monk increases to match the 20 in an attribute.
At a glance there is some kind of disparity or edge for the fighter but the reality is that it's just not there when it comes to unarmed fighting. And it's just not worth it to the monk to try and use a feat to pick up because they have ways to approximate most or all of the percieved increase with their natural kit anyway.
It's been said multiple times, but the role of a monk in the party is different than a melee fighter.
Monks can much more readily choose who to fight and when to disengage. Melee fighters wilm generally plant themselves on the frontline holding the line and trading blows. An unarmed fighter type will probably be making better use of grapples and keeping targets from moving freely, but does not necessarily have to do this.
Monks can much more readily choose who to target beyond the front line, and have a means of gtfo when things get hairy. An Astral Self Monk can successfully grapple without too many issues, but this, like the unarmed fighter is a niche build.
The damage output should not be comparison to make between classes, unarmed or not. Monks dont always mesh with every party, but when they do, their mobility really shines.
Having gotten into a few more scraps with my now level 9 Monk, I have observed a shift in where my most valuable contributions are. In the earlier game, up to around level 7, my damage was on par or above the other 2 melee in our group (Barbarian-Berserker and Fighter-Champion) in most fights. I used a few stuns on more dangerous foes, but spent most of my Ki on FoB for the extra strike. My damage output was enough, compared to our enemies HP, to be worth more to take them down fast, than to lock them up, or mess with their fighting tactics. Moving up, my use of Ki is more focused on stuns, for enemies that should have a lower Con, or knocking them prone (Dex save) to give my allies advantage on their strikes, or in a couple cases, knocking them back (Str check) over the edge of an impressive drop.
I think the biggest thing I see is that my damage has increased from earlier levels (improved Martial Arts die, better hit chance etc) but more slowly than the other classes (wider range of weapon choices for bigger boosts) Here is where the Unarmed Fighter and the Monk diverge a fair bit. My Monk now fights with more care and precision, choosing a foe to stun, or knock over, or sometimes using a Ki point to take a dodge stance and give one more option for them to try and hit (mitigate some attack damage) The Monk skills offer these options, where the Unarmed Fighter is still kind of stuck in the groove of dealing (and likely taking) damage. Grappling tactics can certainly be a big help, too, so don't misunderstand that I am dismissing it as an option, but I am saying that the Monk class is different to the Fighter class, so really comparing one facet of them (damage output) doesn't make any more sense than comparing a Barbarian to a Paladin. They share the notion that they deal melee damage, but the rest of the class doesn't DO the same stuff.
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.