I'm wondering if it's viable to build a paladin designed more for supporting the party than for damage. I'm working with just the players handbook here, and thinking in terms of "the next time I play in a campaign, I'll wants to play someone like this". Would such a build work and be useful, or be underpowered? I picture this character as filling the support role, working well alongside a rogue, a barbarian or fighter, and a wizard. Is there anything in the bullet points below that you would change in order to improve the character's efficacy?
My first thoughts on character development were:
Take the variant human and take the magic initiate feat, using the Druid spells guidance, resistance, and goodberry. This way the party never has to worry about food, and if I typically use goodberry before taking a long rest, it's an extra 16 or so points of healing during a one day adventure. I picture him following behind the rogue leading the party, periodically touching his shoulder to advise him/her on perception or lock picking (guidance), or alerting him/her to traps (resistance).
Proficiencies: perception and athletics from the sailor background, insight and persuasion from being a paladin, and stealth from variant human.
Take the defense fighting style. Use shield of faith (if the party needs a tank) or bless in combat rather than smites. Other party members can focus on damage output.
Oath of the ancients for the aura of warding. And I really like the oath as a character development moment.
I was considering multiclass options after level 7 or 8, and thought that Bard was a good direction. That way I pick up vicious mockery for imposing disadvantage at 8/9th level, Jack of all trades just as it starts counting as +2 at 9/10th level, College of lore and yet more skills (!!!) at 10th level. As if he weren't already giving off a "Jack of all trades master of none" vibe.
His backstory would go something like this: Parents wanted him to inherit a fine profession, but he was stifled and ran off to sea. After some negative experiences with a couple of bad captains/crewmates, he's decided to explore the land instead for even more freedom, and has been exploring for some months and loving it. The other characters would be people he met and liked during his travels.
Ideal: Travel is freedom. I want to see as much of the beauty of the world as I can. I adventure to pay the bills and satisfy my curiosity. Personality trait: I enjoy traveling to new towns and making new friends, telling them of the wider world, and womanizing if the opportunity presented itself. I hope one day to meet a woman who will join me on the road, who I can show the world to. Flaws: I'm not a fan of responsibilities or of staying still for very long. Curiosity will be my downfall. Bonds: I may have left a couple of bastard children in my wake. I'm afraid to go back and confront any pain my lack of responsibility has created. One day I want to go back to my parents and show them what a success I have become.
How about multiclassing into bard? Is it viable? I've looked through the forum and I don't see anyone talking about it. It's all Pala-lock and Sorc-adin. So why not?
Multiclassing into bard isn't bad. You would need to level up 3 levels to the college of swords, but you would still be more effective as a high level paladin in attack and support. Don't multiclass if you don't need to.
How about multiclassing into bard? Is it viable? I've looked through the forum and I don't see anyone talking about it. It's all Pala-lock and Sorc-adin. So why not?
bard-paladin multiclass is an excellent choice, it's one of the best choices. Though, as you've might've guessed from taking a look around, the aforementioned multiclass are just better. Warlock offers SADness and short-rest dependency, while Sorcerer provides meta-magic and a wider selection of spells to draw from for added power and utility. Still, however, paladin-bard's main idea is to lean heavily into bard, with just two levels of paladin. That's why WallineDungeonMaster suggested college of swords, to earn that mutliattack through your bard subclass without needing paladin. However, this does mean you don't benefit from your auras at lvl 6 or 7, and therefore, paladin 2/bard X is a much more offensive-orientated version.
If you want to lean more into support, definitely consider paladin 6/7+bard X. That way, you can also pick up a more supportive bard subclass, like lore bard or eloquence bard. Just start paladin all the way straight to lvl 7 if you pick Oath of The Ancients, then switch to bard straight away from there. You can also pick up expertise in persuasion and pump up your CHA to cap in order to improve that skill along with your aura while being the face of the party.
Pursue the path of a paladin up to level 7. Then switch to Bard (lore) for 4 levels, then pick up the 8th Paladin level (for the ability score improvement), then continue in Bard.
By level 10, Bardic inspiration/cutting words can take up my reaction and bonus action if I don't have any other way to use them, so I can use every action opportunity every turn. For a little while, anyway.
At levels 10 and 11, my skillz will be get super 1337. As you said, great (+12) persuasion and maybe (+10) stealth. Or perception? Depending on the campaign.
For ability score improvements, max out Charisma and get war caster by level 12. Then...? Well, I don't have to worry about 16th level now.
Level 14: Pick up counterspell from magical secrets, and...? Anyone got any great 3rd level spells to suggest?
Level 16: More magical secrets, maybe circle of power and...? Suggestions? I love the image of some wizard calling down a meteor swarm, and between bardic inspiration, circle of power, and the paladin auras, the party emerges unscathed or nearly so.
Missing out on lvl 13 bard means losing out on 7th lvl spells, so it might not be worth getting that lvl 8 paladin. However, if you are set on an 8/12 split, I would go 8 paladin first from the get go just to cap out CHA and give my party the best aura ASAP, or war caster and 18 CHA if you really want to sword and board.
I'm not so concerned with 20th level. How much time to characters spend there, after all? I'm more concerned with how a Paladin7 Bard3 holds up against Paladin10 or Paladin8Bard2.
If you look at the magic initiate feat, it pays off in the early game (feed the party and about 16 extra hit points from goodberry) and in the skill department, but in the very long run it's s bad choice for combat.
After a lot of thought, I'm convinced to pick up just 1 level of Bard before picking up Paladin level 8. I can boost others' skills as soon as Bard1. I love the idea of giving guidance AND a bardic die to the party rogue, who, if s/he has maxed out dex and expertise, can sneak past anything in the game. My own expertise and guidance boosted persuasion checks can wait another couple levels.
I'm not so concerned with 20th level. How much time to characters spend there, after all? I'm more concerned with how a Paladin7 Bard3 holds up against Paladin10 or Paladin8Bard2.
If you look at the magic initiate feat, it pays off in the early game (feed the party and about 16 extra hit points from goodberry) and in the skill department, but in the very long run it's s bad choice for combat.
After a lot of thought, I'm convinced to pick up just 1 level of Bard before picking up Paladin level 8. I can boost others' skills as soon as Bard1. I love the idea of giving guidance AND a bardic die to the party rogue, who, if s/he has maxed out dex and expertise, can sneak past anything in the game. My own expertise and guidance boosted persuasion checks can wait another couple levels.
You can have guidance as a paladin via Blessed Warrior, if that's your thing. But the party rogue won't want you anywhere nearby to cast guidance, since your stealth will be garbage - in fact, if you want to assist the party rogue, a 1-level dip into genie warlock will let the rogue carry you in their pocket, so you're not a stealth liability. If you want to help guarantee the rogue can sneak attack, 1 level of clockwork soul will let you get rid of disadvantage to guarantee the rogue can sneak attack someone you can just run up to.
Bardic dice aren't a significant source of support until Bard 5, and Paladin 8 can be inspiring leader... although it's hard to argue with gunning for CHA 20, thanks to how good Aura of Protection is. I would not duck out of Paladin until Paladin 9, which is purely numerical - you reach spell level 3 - with no actual class benefits. And you'll want to climb Bard until at least 5 and if you pick a good college 6, if you want to make bardic dice do real work for you.
Re-read your original post, and resistance is significantly harder to make work than guidance - so much so that most people don't take it. And you're just not built the right way for goodberry abuse - proficiency in cook's utensils would be better, because it's so much less expensive to get. Also, you should basically always take Tasha's Custom Lineage over Variant Human. For your feat, I'd recommend swapping Magic Initiate for Fey Touched (Hex). You can Hex Strength for shove and grapple, or you can Hex Wisdom to help the rogue hide, and either way Hes also buffs your damage, so it's not like you're getting worse at accomplishing Paladin jobs for the party.
First of all, thank you everybody for your perspectives. I haven't necessarily agreed 100% with any of them, but every single person has contributed things that I'm now using.
I personally just feel like paladin and warlock aren't classes that make a lot of sense together. A true paladin can't serve two masters, and a warlock's patron's interests would probably come into conflict with the paladin's oath. On the other hand I feel like an oath of the ancients paladin is thematically a good match with a bard. I want to play a character who is charming, insatiably curious, enjoys travel, and cares a lot more about enjoyment than responsibilities. That's what made me think of the build. That, and I am underwhelmed by what paladins get after seventh level. Multi-classing will result in more spell slots faster and provides cantrips. I can even use magical secrets to pick up any paladin spells that I feel I'm missing out on. From another perspective, I see this as an improvement on the college of valor bard. So here's where I am now:
Half elf using point-buy: strength 16, dexterity 10, Constitution 14, intelligence 12, wisdom 8, charisma 16 (I know switching intelligence and wisdom would be the smart choice but it works for the character's personality that I want), sailor background, starts with weapon, shield, and chain mail. Advances as a paladin until Pal7, then takes Bard1, then Pal8, and then continues advancing as a bard of lore from then on. At fourth level takes a feat (sentinel?), at Pal8 takes Cha18. At Bard4 takes Cha20 or war caster, takes the other at Bard8.
For his fighting style, I just discovered the tunnel fighter option, and think it pairs really well with the sentinel feat (and War Caster? Viciously mocking 20 people running past me is much more plausible then swinging my sword 20 times in six seconds) and what I want to do: stand just in front of the spell casters, protecting them from both magical and physical attacks with my positioning.
Questions:
At Bard6, pick up counterspell and… what? At Bard10, pick up Circle of power and… what?
At Bard10, which is level 18, I want my party, huddling inside my circle of power to be likely to withstand a meteor swarm with little to no damage. Everyone's saves are at +5 because of my aura of protection, come with advantage because of the circle of power, and a successful save means no damage because of circle of power. Failed saves are still at half damage because of the aura of warding, for an average of 70 damage. Most 18th level characters should be able to survive that, and for the wizard who can't, I can hand out bardic inspiration so he probably won't have to.
It's a solid build for sure when considering the majority of a realistic campaign. For magical secrets, you have options. I'd recommend either find greater steed for a kickass flying mount, animate objects for good DPR, or holy weapon to offensively buff the fighter/martial/yourself.
Though, more than anything you might want to play things by ear as the actual best course of action. The entire point of a bard's magical secrets is they allow you to cover up the party's weaknesses. You want to be able to build around whatever your party didn't take. For example, if your party needs greater restoration, then so be it, that's what they need you to take instead of something cool like animate objects.
You won't know what you need to take until you get there, but luckily it looks like you have a good head on your shoulders and have a good idea of what needs to be done, so I'm pretty confident you'll know what's missing.
Tunnel Fighter is unearthed arcana and has a reputation for being...juiced. Make sure it's a legal option before you get your heart set on it and build around it.
Blessed Warrior is actually perfect for you since it allows you to pick up Guidance (the most impressive part of what you want out of magic initiate) without spending a feat.
Inspiring Leader is an interesting feat to look at for providing extra party support. I like this plus Blessed Warrior for Guidance more than I like magic initiate for the cantrips + goodberry. You already have an excellent resource for getting people on their feet with Lay on Hands, which is pretty much all goodberry is really good for. Food just isn't a problem in most campaigns, and the Outlander background can fill in if you really want (which goes well with Ancients Paladin conceptually). Inspiring Leader providing temp hp means everyone will be lasting a little bit longer, hopefully limiting the number of times you actually have to pick them back up.
If there's no cleric in the party I agree 100%, HeironymusZot. In terms of extra hit points, I can also use the spell slots that are of higher level than any spells I know to upcast aid. I think that a lot of my choices in terms of spells will depend on party composition.
I play with a small group, (me (Paladin (OoV)), Monk and Wizard playing Waterdeep Dragon Heist),so we have no Healer. Im thinking of taking Magic Initiate for myself. Mainly for Healing Word. I´m favoring it not for toping people of (that´s the department of Lay on Hands and Short Rests), but as a way of bringin someone who is down back into the fight. All that without having to stop attacking, move out of position ore having to expend an Spellslot. Ok, only one Time per Day, and the Tiniy healing doesn´t help them much, but they can do something. And i like the Idea of may Paladin yelling at them ("This fight isn´t over! Get up you lazy §$%& ") to bring them back into Action.
As Cantrips i would consider Guidance (unless you have an other Char that uses it) and Thornwip. The Damage and Range is lame, but you can move Enemys 10 ft, ether to get an him closer to you, to pull him down a Wall (etc) or to move him out of meleerange with an Allie. Sadly sadly i requires 1 Action to cast... :(
Hi Torina, I would recommend a single level of bard over the magic initiate feat. For one thing, it gives you some bardic inspiration dice. For another thing, it gives you additional spell options including healing word. For another thing, it gives you a pair of cantrips just like magic initiate. For another thing, it speeds up your spell progression, getting you to upper level spell slots faster, which you can always use for aid or smite. It also gives you one additional skill and proficiency with a musical instrument.
In fact, I just did an analysis level by level and am convinced that after level six, switching to bard is almost definitely an improvement over continuing down the paladin track. I will post about it later.
My opinion is this: I would pretty much always take the extra abilities in bold over the abilities underlined for any level. The number of HP I can pick up with upcasts of Aid and Armor of Agathys outperforms the HP from lay on hands and having a better hit die. Spirit guardians or multiple destructive waves or armor of agathys will probably outperform improved divine smite. And something like contingent destructive wave or contingent circle of power makes a fine replacement for a oath capstone. Tell me why I'm wrong if you think so.
Paladin 6 Bard 1 instead of paladin 7:
bardic inspiration d6, two cantrips, access to level 1 bard spells, 4 spell preps, ritual casting, 1 skill, one musical instrument for the cost of: 7th level oath feature, +5 lay on hands, 1HP
Paladin 6 Bard 2 instead of paladin 8:
bardic inspiration d6, 2 cantrips, 4 spell preps, access to level 1 bard spells, ritual casting, 1 skill, one musical instrument, +1 initiative, +1 unknown skills, 2 3rd level spell slots, song of rest (d6) for the cost of: 7th level oath feature, +10 lay on hands, ability score improvement, 2HP
Paladin 6 Bard 3 instead of paladin 9:
bardic inspiration d6, cutting words, 2 cantrips, 2 spell preps, ritual casting, access to level 1-2 bard spells, 4 skills, expertise in two skills, one musical instrument, +2 initiative, +2 unknown skills, 1 3rd level spell slot, song of rest (d6) for the cost of: 7th level oath feature, +15 lay on hands, ability score improvement, access to level 3 paladin spells, 3HP
Paladin 6 Bard 4 instead of paladin 10:
bardic inspiration d6, cutting words, 3 cantrips, 2 spell preps, ritual casting, access to level 1-2 bard spells, 4 skills, expertise in two skills, one musical instrument, +2 initiative, +2 unknown skills, 1 3rd level spell slot, 1 4th level spell slot, song of rest (d6) for the cost of: 7th level oath feature, +20 lay on hands, access to level 3 paladin spells, aura of courage, 4HP
Paladin 6 Bard 5 instead of paladin 11:
bardic inspiration d8 and font of inspiration, cutting words, 3 cantrips, 3 spell preps, ritual casting, access to level 1-3 bard spells, 4 skills, expertise in two skills, one musical instrument, +2 initiative, +2 unknown skills, 2 4th level spell slots, song of rest (d6) for the cost of: 7th level oath feature, +25 lay on hands, access to level 3 paladin spells, improved divine smite, aura of courage, 5HP
Paladin 6 Bard 6 instead of paladin 12:
bardic inspiration d8 and font of inspiration, cutting words, 3 cantrips, 3 spell preps, ritual casting, access to level 1-3 bard spells, 4 skills, expertise in two skills, one musical instrument, +2 initiative, +2 unknown skills, 3 4th level spell slots, 1 5th level slot, 2 magical secrets of level 1-3 (armor of agathys? shield? counterspell? spirit guardians?), countercharm, song of rest (d6) for the cost of: 7th level oath feature, +30 lay on hands, access to level 3 paladin spells, improved divine smite, aura of courage, ability score improvement, 6HP
Paladin 6 Bard 7 instead of paladin 13:
bardic inspiration d8 and font of inspiration, cutting words, 3 cantrips, 2 spell preps, ritual casting, access to level 1-4 bard spells, 4 skills, expertise in two skills, one musical instrument, +2 initiative, +2 unknown skills, 2 4th level spell slots, 2 5th level slots (aid = 60 HP), 2 magical secrets of level 1-3 (armor of agathys? shield? counterspell? spirit guardians?), countercharm, song of rest (d6) for the cost of: 7th level oath feature, +35 lay on hands, access to level 3-4 paladin spells, improved divine smite, aura of courage, ability score improvement, 7HP
Paladin 6 Bard 8 instead of paladin 14:
bardic inspiration d8 and font of inspiration, cutting words, 3 cantrips, 2 spell preps, ritual casting, access to level 1-4 bard spells, 4 skills, expertise in two skills, one musical instrument, +2 initiative, +2 unknown skills, 2 4th level spell slots, 2 5th level slots, 1 6th level slot (aid = 75 HP), 2 magical secrets of level 1-3 (armor of agathys? shield? counterspell? spirit guardians?), countercharm, song of rest (d6) for the cost of: 7th level oath feature, +40 lay on hands, access to level 3-4 paladin spells, improved divine smite, aura of courage, cleansing touch (ends spells), 8HP
Paladin 6 Bard 9 instead of paladin 15:
bardic inspiration d8 and font of inspiration, cutting words, 3 cantrips, 3 spell preps, ritual casting, access to level 1-5 bard spells, 4 skills, expertise in two skills, one musical instrument, +2 initiative, +2 unknown skills, 1 4th level spell slot, 2 5th level slots, 1 6th level slot (aid = 75 HP), 2 magical secrets of level 1-3 (armor of agathys? shield? counterspell? spirit guardians?), countercharm, song of rest (d8) for the cost of: 7th level oath feature, +45 lay on hands, access to level 3-4 paladin spells, improved divine smite, aura of courage, cleansing touch (ends spells), no aging, get back up once 0HP --> 1HP, 9HP
Paladin 6 Bard 10 instead of paladin 16:
bardic inspiration d10 and font of inspiration, cutting words, 4 cantrips, 4 spell preps, ritual casting, access to level 1-5 bard spells, 4 skills, expertise in 4 skills, one musical instrument, +2 initiative, +2 unknown skills, 1 4th level spell slot, 2 5th level slots, 1 6th level slot, 1 7th level slot (aid = 90 HP), 2 magical secrets of level 1-3 (armor of agathys? shield? counterspell? spirit guardians?), 2 magical secrets of levels 1-5 (destructive wave, circle of power, animate objects, wall of force), countercharm, song of rest (d8) for the cost of: 7th level oath feature, +50 lay on hands, access to level 3-4 paladin spells, improved divine smite, aura of courage, cleansing touch (ends spells), no aging, get back up once 0HP --> 1HP, ability score improvement, 10HP
Paladin 6 Bard 11 instead of paladin 17:
bardic inspiration d10 and font of inspiration, cutting words, 4 cantrips, 3 spell preps, ritual casting, access to level 1-6 bard spells, 4 skills, expertise in 4 skills, one musical instrument, +3 initiative, +3 unknown skills, 1 5th level slot, 1 6th level slot, 1 7th level slot (aid = 90 HP), 2 magical secrets of level 1-3 (armor of agathys? shield? counterspell? spirit guardians?), 2 magical secrets of levels 1-5 (destructive wave, circle of power, animate objects, wall of force), countercharm, song of rest (d8) for the cost of: 7th level oath feature, +55 lay on hands, access to level 3-5 paladin spells, improved divine smite, aura of courage, cleansing touch (ends spells), no aging, get back up once 0HP --> 1HP, ability score improvement, 11HP
Paladin 6 Bard 12 instead of paladin 18:
bardic inspiration d10 and font of inspiration, cutting words, 4 cantrips, 2 spell preps, ritual casting, access to level 1-6 bard spells, 4 skills, expertise in 4 skills, one musical instrument, +3 initiative, +3 unknown skills, 1 5th level slot, 1 6th level slot, 1 7th level slot, 1 8th level slot (aid = 105 HP), 2 magical secrets of level 1-3 (armor of agathys? shield? counterspell? spirit guardians?), 2 magical secrets of levels 1-5 (destructive wave, circle of power, animate objects, wall of force), countercharm, song of rest (d8) for the cost of: 7th level oath feature, 30' auras, +60 lay on hands, access to level 3-5 paladin spells, improved divine smite, aura of courage, cleansing touch (ends spells), no aging, get back up once 0HP --> 1HP, 12HP
Paladin 6 Bard 13 instead of paladin 19:
bardic inspiration d10 and font of inspiration, cutting words, 4 cantrips, 3 spell preps, ritual casting, access to level 1-7 bard spells, 4 skills, expertise in 4 skills, one musical instrument, +3 initiative, +3 unknown skills, 1 6th level slot, 1 7th level slot, 1 8th level slot (aid = 105 HP), 2 magical secrets of level 1-3 (armor of agathys? shield? counterspell? spirit guardians?), 2 magical secrets of levels 1-5 (destructive wave, circle of power, animate objects, wall of force), countercharm, song of rest (d10) for the cost of:7th level oath feature, 30' auras, +65 lay on hands, access to level 3-5 paladin spells, improved divine smite, aura of courage, cleansing touch (ends spells), no aging, get back up once 0HP --> 1HP, ability score improvement, 13HP
Paladin 6 Bard 14 instead of paladin 20:
bardic inspiration d10 and font of inspiration, cutting words, peerless skill, 4 cantrips, 4 spell preps, ritual casting, access to level 1-7 bard spells, 4 skills, expertise in 4 skills, one musical instrument, +3 initiative, +3 unknown skills, 1 6th level slot, 1 7th level slot, 1 8th level slot, 1 9th level slot (aid = 120 HP), 2 magical secrets of level 1-3 (armor of agathys? shield? counterspell? spirit guardians?), 2 magical secrets of levels 1-5 (destructive wave, circle of power, animate objects, wall of force), 2 magical secrets of levels 1-7 (simulacrum, contingency), countercharm, song of rest (d10) for the cost of: 7th level oath feature, 30' auras, +70 lay on hands, access to level 3-5 paladin spells, improved divine smite, aura of courage, cleansing touch (ends spells), no aging, get back up once 0HP --> 1HP, ability score improvement, capstone oath feature, 14HP
Also, I really like the idea of playing a character who focuses on the oath elements of the oath of the ancients rather than the nature or fey elements: He waltzes into towns, telling stories of his and the party's deeds, and womanizes shamelessly, with insane persuasion and deception bonuses. Big on joy and being a hero, not so big on responsibility. He probably started adventuring to escape responsibilities and live a hero's life and travel. That way he doesn't come into moral conflict with other party members.
I'm wondering if it's viable to build a paladin designed more for supporting the party than for damage. I'm working with just the players handbook here, and thinking in terms of "the next time I play in a campaign, I'll wants to play someone like this". Would such a build work and be useful, or be underpowered? I picture this character as filling the support role, working well alongside a rogue, a barbarian or fighter, and a wizard. Is there anything in the bullet points below that you would change in order to improve the character's efficacy?
My first thoughts on character development were:
His backstory would go something like this: Parents wanted him to inherit a fine profession, but he was stifled and ran off to sea. After some negative experiences with a couple of bad captains/crewmates, he's decided to explore the land instead for even more freedom, and has been exploring for some months and loving it. The other characters would be people he met and liked during his travels.
Ideal: Travel is freedom. I want to see as much of the beauty of the world as I can. I adventure to pay the bills and satisfy my curiosity. Personality trait: I enjoy traveling to new towns and making new friends, telling them of the wider world, and womanizing if the opportunity presented itself. I hope one day to meet a woman who will join me on the road, who I can show the world to. Flaws: I'm not a fan of responsibilities or of staying still for very long. Curiosity will be my downfall. Bonds: I may have left a couple of bastard children in my wake. I'm afraid to go back and confront any pain my lack of responsibility has created. One day I want to go back to my parents and show them what a success I have become.
Of course it is viable to have a support based paladin! Here are the "support" subclasses:
Oath of Redemption is the best tank paladin. They are more pacifist, taking damage for other party members, and rebuking damage to opponents.
Oath of the Ancients is good against spells. They restrain opponents, and give resistance to damage.
Oath of the Watchers is good against any magical effect. They offer advantage on saving throws, bonus to initiative, etc.
Oath of Glory is good for buffing physical strength. They give temporary hit points, speed increases, and athletics bonuses.
Paladins aren't all offensive!
My only good homebrews: Races, Subclasses.
An aspiring DM and Homebrewer. Ask me if you need anything.
How about multiclassing into bard? Is it viable? I've looked through the forum and I don't see anyone talking about it. It's all Pala-lock and Sorc-adin. So why not?
Multiclassing into bard isn't bad. You would need to level up 3 levels to the college of swords, but you would still be more effective as a high level paladin in attack and support. Don't multiclass if you don't need to.
My only good homebrews: Races, Subclasses.
An aspiring DM and Homebrewer. Ask me if you need anything.
bard-paladin multiclass is an excellent choice, it's one of the best choices. Though, as you've might've guessed from taking a look around, the aforementioned multiclass are just better. Warlock offers SADness and short-rest dependency, while Sorcerer provides meta-magic and a wider selection of spells to draw from for added power and utility. Still, however, paladin-bard's main idea is to lean heavily into bard, with just two levels of paladin. That's why WallineDungeonMaster suggested college of swords, to earn that mutliattack through your bard subclass without needing paladin. However, this does mean you don't benefit from your auras at lvl 6 or 7, and therefore, paladin 2/bard X is a much more offensive-orientated version.
If you want to lean more into support, definitely consider paladin 6/7+bard X. That way, you can also pick up a more supportive bard subclass, like lore bard or eloquence bard. Just start paladin all the way straight to lvl 7 if you pick Oath of The Ancients, then switch to bard straight away from there. You can also pick up expertise in persuasion and pump up your CHA to cap in order to improve that skill along with your aura while being the face of the party.
Here's what I'm thinking:
Pursue the path of a paladin up to level 7. Then switch to Bard (lore) for 4 levels, then pick up the 8th Paladin level (for the ability score improvement), then continue in Bard.
By level 10, Bardic inspiration/cutting words can take up my reaction and bonus action if I don't have any other way to use them, so I can use every action opportunity every turn. For a little while, anyway.
At levels 10 and 11, my skillz will be get super 1337. As you said, great (+12) persuasion and maybe (+10) stealth. Or perception? Depending on the campaign.
For ability score improvements, max out Charisma and get war caster by level 12. Then...? Well, I don't have to worry about 16th level now.
Level 14: Pick up counterspell from magical secrets, and...? Anyone got any great 3rd level spells to suggest?
Level 16: More magical secrets, maybe circle of power and...? Suggestions? I love the image of some wizard calling down a meteor swarm, and between bardic inspiration, circle of power, and the paladin auras, the party emerges unscathed or nearly so.
Missing out on lvl 13 bard means losing out on 7th lvl spells, so it might not be worth getting that lvl 8 paladin. However, if you are set on an 8/12 split, I would go 8 paladin first from the get go just to cap out CHA and give my party the best aura ASAP, or war caster and 18 CHA if you really want to sword and board.
I'm not so concerned with 20th level. How much time to characters spend there, after all? I'm more concerned with how a Paladin7 Bard3 holds up against Paladin10 or Paladin8Bard2.
If you look at the magic initiate feat, it pays off in the early game (feed the party and about 16 extra hit points from goodberry) and in the skill department, but in the very long run it's s bad choice for combat.
After a lot of thought, I'm convinced to pick up just 1 level of Bard before picking up Paladin level 8. I can boost others' skills as soon as Bard1. I love the idea of giving guidance AND a bardic die to the party rogue, who, if s/he has maxed out dex and expertise, can sneak past anything in the game. My own expertise and guidance boosted persuasion checks can wait another couple levels.
You can have guidance as a paladin via Blessed Warrior, if that's your thing. But the party rogue won't want you anywhere nearby to cast guidance, since your stealth will be garbage - in fact, if you want to assist the party rogue, a 1-level dip into genie warlock will let the rogue carry you in their pocket, so you're not a stealth liability. If you want to help guarantee the rogue can sneak attack, 1 level of clockwork soul will let you get rid of disadvantage to guarantee the rogue can sneak attack someone you can just run up to.
Bardic dice aren't a significant source of support until Bard 5, and Paladin 8 can be inspiring leader... although it's hard to argue with gunning for CHA 20, thanks to how good Aura of Protection is. I would not duck out of Paladin until Paladin 9, which is purely numerical - you reach spell level 3 - with no actual class benefits. And you'll want to climb Bard until at least 5 and if you pick a good college 6, if you want to make bardic dice do real work for you.
Re-read your original post, and resistance is significantly harder to make work than guidance - so much so that most people don't take it. And you're just not built the right way for goodberry abuse - proficiency in cook's utensils would be better, because it's so much less expensive to get. Also, you should basically always take Tasha's Custom Lineage over Variant Human. For your feat, I'd recommend swapping Magic Initiate for Fey Touched (Hex). You can Hex Strength for shove and grapple, or you can Hex Wisdom to help the rogue hide, and either way Hes also buffs your damage, so it's not like you're getting worse at accomplishing Paladin jobs for the party.
First of all, thank you everybody for your perspectives. I haven't necessarily agreed 100% with any of them, but every single person has contributed things that I'm now using.
I personally just feel like paladin and warlock aren't classes that make a lot of sense together. A true paladin can't serve two masters, and a warlock's patron's interests would probably come into conflict with the paladin's oath. On the other hand I feel like an oath of the ancients paladin is thematically a good match with a bard. I want to play a character who is charming, insatiably curious, enjoys travel, and cares a lot more about enjoyment than responsibilities. That's what made me think of the build. That, and I am underwhelmed by what paladins get after seventh level. Multi-classing will result in more spell slots faster and provides cantrips. I can even use magical secrets to pick up any paladin spells that I feel I'm missing out on. From another perspective, I see this as an improvement on the college of valor bard. So here's where I am now:
Half elf using point-buy: strength 16, dexterity 10, Constitution 14, intelligence 12, wisdom 8, charisma 16 (I know switching intelligence and wisdom would be the smart choice but it works for the character's personality that I want), sailor background, starts with weapon, shield, and chain mail. Advances as a paladin until Pal7, then takes Bard1, then Pal8, and then continues advancing as a bard of lore from then on. At fourth level takes a feat (sentinel?), at Pal8 takes Cha18. At Bard4 takes Cha20 or war caster, takes the other at Bard8.
For his fighting style, I just discovered the tunnel fighter option, and think it pairs really well with the sentinel feat (and War Caster? Viciously mocking 20 people running past me is much more plausible then swinging my sword 20 times in six seconds) and what I want to do: stand just in front of the spell casters, protecting them from both magical and physical attacks with my positioning.
Questions:
At Bard6, pick up counterspell and… what? At Bard10, pick up Circle of power and… what?
At Bard10, which is level 18, I want my party, huddling inside my circle of power to be likely to withstand a meteor swarm with little to no damage. Everyone's saves are at +5 because of my aura of protection, come with advantage because of the circle of power, and a successful save means no damage because of circle of power. Failed saves are still at half damage because of the aura of warding, for an average of 70 damage. Most 18th level characters should be able to survive that, and for the wizard who can't, I can hand out bardic inspiration so he probably won't have to.
Comments? Recommendations?
It's a solid build for sure when considering the majority of a realistic campaign. For magical secrets, you have options. I'd recommend either find greater steed for a kickass flying mount, animate objects for good DPR, or holy weapon to offensively buff the fighter/martial/yourself.
Though, more than anything you might want to play things by ear as the actual best course of action. The entire point of a bard's magical secrets is they allow you to cover up the party's weaknesses. You want to be able to build around whatever your party didn't take. For example, if your party needs greater restoration, then so be it, that's what they need you to take instead of something cool like animate objects.
You won't know what you need to take until you get there, but luckily it looks like you have a good head on your shoulders and have a good idea of what needs to be done, so I'm pretty confident you'll know what's missing.
Tunnel Fighter is unearthed arcana and has a reputation for being...juiced. Make sure it's a legal option before you get your heart set on it and build around it.
If not, I'll either take defense or blessed warrior, I suppose. As a paladin-bard, he won't lack for options for his reaction and bonus action.
Blessed Warrior is actually perfect for you since it allows you to pick up Guidance (the most impressive part of what you want out of magic initiate) without spending a feat.
Inspiring Leader is an interesting feat to look at for providing extra party support. I like this plus Blessed Warrior for Guidance more than I like magic initiate for the cantrips + goodberry. You already have an excellent resource for getting people on their feet with Lay on Hands, which is pretty much all goodberry is really good for. Food just isn't a problem in most campaigns, and the Outlander background can fill in if you really want (which goes well with Ancients Paladin conceptually). Inspiring Leader providing temp hp means everyone will be lasting a little bit longer, hopefully limiting the number of times you actually have to pick them back up.
If there's no cleric in the party I agree 100%, HeironymusZot. In terms of extra hit points, I can also use the spell slots that are of higher level than any spells I know to upcast aid. I think that a lot of my choices in terms of spells will depend on party composition.
Hi
I play with a small group, (me (Paladin (OoV)), Monk and Wizard playing Waterdeep Dragon Heist),so we have no Healer. Im thinking of taking Magic Initiate for myself. Mainly for Healing Word. I´m favoring it not for toping people of (that´s the department of Lay on Hands and Short Rests), but as a way of bringin someone who is down back into the fight. All that without having to stop attacking, move out of position ore having to expend an Spellslot. Ok, only one Time per Day, and the Tiniy healing doesn´t help them much, but they can do something. And i like the Idea of may Paladin yelling at them ("This fight isn´t over! Get up you lazy §$%& ") to bring them back into Action.
As Cantrips i would consider Guidance (unless you have an other Char that uses it) and Thornwip. The Damage and Range is lame, but you can move Enemys 10 ft, ether to get an him closer to you, to pull him down a Wall (etc) or to move him out of meleerange with an Allie. Sadly sadly i requires 1 Action to cast... :(
Hi Torina, I would recommend a single level of bard over the magic initiate feat. For one thing, it gives you some bardic inspiration dice. For another thing, it gives you additional spell options including healing word. For another thing, it gives you a pair of cantrips just like magic initiate. For another thing, it speeds up your spell progression, getting you to upper level spell slots faster, which you can always use for aid or smite. It also gives you one additional skill and proficiency with a musical instrument.
In fact, I just did an analysis level by level and am convinced that after level six, switching to bard is almost definitely an improvement over continuing down the paladin track. I will post about it later.
My opinion is this: I would pretty much always take the extra abilities in bold over the abilities underlined for any level. The number of HP I can pick up with upcasts of Aid and Armor of Agathys outperforms the HP from lay on hands and having a better hit die. Spirit guardians or multiple destructive waves or armor of agathys will probably outperform improved divine smite. And something like contingent destructive wave or contingent circle of power makes a fine replacement for a oath capstone. Tell me why I'm wrong if you think so.
Paladin 6 Bard 1 instead of paladin 7:
bardic inspiration d6, two cantrips, access to level 1 bard spells, 4 spell preps, ritual casting, 1 skill, one musical instrument for the cost of: 7th level oath feature, +5 lay on hands, 1HP
Paladin 6 Bard 2 instead of paladin 8:
bardic inspiration d6, 2 cantrips, 4 spell preps, access to level 1 bard spells, ritual casting, 1 skill, one musical instrument, +1 initiative, +1 unknown skills, 2 3rd level spell slots, song of rest (d6) for the cost of: 7th level oath feature, +10 lay on hands, ability score improvement, 2HP
Paladin 6 Bard 3 instead of paladin 9:
bardic inspiration d6, cutting words, 2 cantrips, 2 spell preps, ritual casting, access to level 1-2 bard spells, 4 skills, expertise in two skills, one musical instrument, +2 initiative, +2 unknown skills, 1 3rd level spell slot, song of rest (d6) for the cost of: 7th level oath feature, +15 lay on hands, ability score improvement, access to level 3 paladin spells, 3HP
Paladin 6 Bard 4 instead of paladin 10:
bardic inspiration d6, cutting words, 3 cantrips, 2 spell preps, ritual casting, access to level 1-2 bard spells, 4 skills, expertise in two skills, one musical instrument, +2 initiative, +2 unknown skills, 1 3rd level spell slot, 1 4th level spell slot, song of rest (d6) for the cost of: 7th level oath feature, +20 lay on hands, access to level 3 paladin spells, aura of courage, 4HP
Paladin 6 Bard 5 instead of paladin 11:
bardic inspiration d8 and font of inspiration, cutting words, 3 cantrips, 3 spell preps, ritual casting, access to level 1-3 bard spells, 4 skills, expertise in two skills, one musical instrument, +2 initiative, +2 unknown skills, 2 4th level spell slots, song of rest (d6) for the cost of: 7th level oath feature, +25 lay on hands, access to level 3 paladin spells, improved divine smite, aura of courage, 5HP
Paladin 6 Bard 6 instead of paladin 12:
bardic inspiration d8 and font of inspiration, cutting words, 3 cantrips, 3 spell preps, ritual casting, access to level 1-3 bard spells, 4 skills, expertise in two skills, one musical instrument, +2 initiative, +2 unknown skills, 3 4th level spell slots, 1 5th level slot, 2 magical secrets of level 1-3 (armor of agathys? shield? counterspell? spirit guardians?), countercharm, song of rest (d6) for the cost of: 7th level oath feature, +30 lay on hands, access to level 3 paladin spells, improved divine smite, aura of courage, ability score improvement, 6HP
Paladin 6 Bard 7 instead of paladin 13:
bardic inspiration d8 and font of inspiration, cutting words, 3 cantrips, 2 spell preps, ritual casting, access to level 1-4 bard spells, 4 skills, expertise in two skills, one musical instrument, +2 initiative, +2 unknown skills, 2 4th level spell slots, 2 5th level slots (aid = 60 HP), 2 magical secrets of level 1-3 (armor of agathys? shield? counterspell? spirit guardians?), countercharm, song of rest (d6) for the cost of: 7th level oath feature, +35 lay on hands, access to level 3-4 paladin spells, improved divine smite, aura of courage, ability score improvement, 7HP
Paladin 6 Bard 8 instead of paladin 14:
bardic inspiration d8 and font of inspiration, cutting words, 3 cantrips, 2 spell preps, ritual casting, access to level 1-4 bard spells, 4 skills, expertise in two skills, one musical instrument, +2 initiative, +2 unknown skills, 2 4th level spell slots, 2 5th level slots, 1 6th level slot (aid = 75 HP), 2 magical secrets of level 1-3 (armor of agathys? shield? counterspell? spirit guardians?), countercharm, song of rest (d6) for the cost of: 7th level oath feature, +40 lay on hands, access to level 3-4 paladin spells, improved divine smite, aura of courage, cleansing touch (ends spells), 8HP
Paladin 6 Bard 9 instead of paladin 15:
bardic inspiration d8 and font of inspiration, cutting words, 3 cantrips, 3 spell preps, ritual casting, access to level 1-5 bard spells, 4 skills, expertise in two skills, one musical instrument, +2 initiative, +2 unknown skills, 1 4th level spell slot, 2 5th level slots, 1 6th level slot (aid = 75 HP), 2 magical secrets of level 1-3 (armor of agathys? shield? counterspell? spirit guardians?), countercharm, song of rest (d8) for the cost of: 7th level oath feature, +45 lay on hands, access to level 3-4 paladin spells, improved divine smite, aura of courage, cleansing touch (ends spells), no aging, get back up once 0HP --> 1HP, 9HP
Paladin 6 Bard 10 instead of paladin 16:
bardic inspiration d10 and font of inspiration, cutting words, 4 cantrips, 4 spell preps, ritual casting, access to level 1-5 bard spells, 4 skills, expertise in 4 skills, one musical instrument, +2 initiative, +2 unknown skills, 1 4th level spell slot, 2 5th level slots, 1 6th level slot, 1 7th level slot (aid = 90 HP), 2 magical secrets of level 1-3 (armor of agathys? shield? counterspell? spirit guardians?), 2 magical secrets of levels 1-5 (destructive wave, circle of power, animate objects, wall of force), countercharm, song of rest (d8) for the cost of: 7th level oath feature, +50 lay on hands, access to level 3-4 paladin spells, improved divine smite, aura of courage, cleansing touch (ends spells), no aging, get back up once 0HP --> 1HP, ability score improvement, 10HP
Paladin 6 Bard 11 instead of paladin 17:
bardic inspiration d10 and font of inspiration, cutting words, 4 cantrips, 3 spell preps, ritual casting, access to level 1-6 bard spells, 4 skills, expertise in 4 skills, one musical instrument, +3 initiative, +3 unknown skills, 1 5th level slot, 1 6th level slot, 1 7th level slot (aid = 90 HP), 2 magical secrets of level 1-3 (armor of agathys? shield? counterspell? spirit guardians?), 2 magical secrets of levels 1-5 (destructive wave, circle of power, animate objects, wall of force), countercharm, song of rest (d8) for the cost of: 7th level oath feature, +55 lay on hands, access to level 3-5 paladin spells, improved divine smite, aura of courage, cleansing touch (ends spells), no aging, get back up once 0HP --> 1HP, ability score improvement, 11HP
Paladin 6 Bard 12 instead of paladin 18:
bardic inspiration d10 and font of inspiration, cutting words, 4 cantrips, 2 spell preps, ritual casting, access to level 1-6 bard spells, 4 skills, expertise in 4 skills, one musical instrument, +3 initiative, +3 unknown skills, 1 5th level slot, 1 6th level slot, 1 7th level slot, 1 8th level slot (aid = 105 HP), 2 magical secrets of level 1-3 (armor of agathys? shield? counterspell? spirit guardians?), 2 magical secrets of levels 1-5 (destructive wave, circle of power, animate objects, wall of force), countercharm, song of rest (d8) for the cost of: 7th level oath feature, 30' auras, +60 lay on hands, access to level 3-5 paladin spells, improved divine smite, aura of courage, cleansing touch (ends spells), no aging, get back up once 0HP --> 1HP, 12HP
Paladin 6 Bard 13 instead of paladin 19:
bardic inspiration d10 and font of inspiration, cutting words, 4 cantrips, 3 spell preps, ritual casting, access to level 1-7 bard spells, 4 skills, expertise in 4 skills, one musical instrument, +3 initiative, +3 unknown skills, 1 6th level slot, 1 7th level slot, 1 8th level slot (aid = 105 HP), 2 magical secrets of level 1-3 (armor of agathys? shield? counterspell? spirit guardians?), 2 magical secrets of levels 1-5 (destructive wave, circle of power, animate objects, wall of force), countercharm, song of rest (d10) for the cost of: 7th level oath feature, 30' auras, +65 lay on hands, access to level 3-5 paladin spells, improved divine smite, aura of courage, cleansing touch (ends spells), no aging, get back up once 0HP --> 1HP, ability score improvement, 13HP
Paladin 6 Bard 14 instead of paladin 20:
bardic inspiration d10 and font of inspiration, cutting words, peerless skill, 4 cantrips, 4 spell preps, ritual casting, access to level 1-7 bard spells, 4 skills, expertise in 4 skills, one musical instrument, +3 initiative, +3 unknown skills, 1 6th level slot, 1 7th level slot, 1 8th level slot, 1 9th level slot (aid = 120 HP), 2 magical secrets of level 1-3 (armor of agathys? shield? counterspell? spirit guardians?), 2 magical secrets of levels 1-5 (destructive wave, circle of power, animate objects, wall of force), 2 magical secrets of levels 1-7 (simulacrum, contingency), countercharm, song of rest (d10) for the cost of: 7th level oath feature, 30' auras, +70 lay on hands, access to level 3-5 paladin spells, improved divine smite, aura of courage, cleansing touch (ends spells), no aging, get back up once 0HP --> 1HP, ability score improvement, capstone oath feature, 14HP
Also, I really like the idea of playing a character who focuses on the oath elements of the oath of the ancients rather than the nature or fey elements: He waltzes into towns, telling stories of his and the party's deeds, and womanizes shamelessly, with insane persuasion and deception bonuses. Big on joy and being a hero, not so big on responsibility. He probably started adventuring to escape responsibilities and live a hero's life and travel. That way he doesn't come into moral conflict with other party members.
Personally just immediately go oath of devotion
insert original witty signature here:
Oath of devotion is the most slept on sub class for Paladins.