- Horizon Walker Ranger (DPR focused with a bow) - Alchemist Artificer / Rogue (low DPR, mostly focused on Utility and Exploration. Has more HP than my paladin and loves hiding in cover. Not really a hero) - Me, thinking if I should a Tank/Control type (Conquest?), help with DPR (maybe Vengeance?) or an all-rounder (Devotion?)
As FS I am thinking between Blessed Warrior or good old Defense. Not bothering with polearms, but GWM is interesting to me.
Ancients is another to consider for control/tanking. It sounds like you’re going to be alone in melee a lot. As such I’d go sword and board/defense, no matter the oath. You’ll be drawing lots of attacks, so keep that ac high. And ancients resistance to spells can be incredible, though it’s a bit campaign dependent on you DM throwing casters at you.
Whatever you feel like playing, honestly. Most of the subclasses are good with 1h and shield or a 2h for more damage. Vengeance, conquest and ancients are all good choices. I like devotion too, though. So there are a number of good options. Go with the one you think would be most interesting and appeals to you. Don't worry about your role in the party, since most of them can either do good damage or tank, if need be.
p.s. I will say, if you want to tank, then vengeance probably wouldn't be my first option. I think vengeance is best with a hard hitting 2h. Not that vengeance can't tank, but I would probably take a different subclass if that was what I wanted to do.
I would argue Devotion is the better overal Paladin of the 3 choices you put out there. I build Paladins all the time.
The biggest thing people seem to forget is unlike Fighters and Barbarians, Paladins do not rely of STR for damage. You would want a higher CHA than anything else. You need at least a 15 STR for heavy armor but if you want higher than that get magic items. There are enough out there that you dont have to rely on ASI points to increase it. Put more in Charisma to increase things on your Devotion Paladin. Get Res (Con) feat as soon as possible.
I would argue Devotion is the better overal Paladin of the 3 choices you put out there. I build Paladins all the time.
The biggest thing people seem to forget is unlike Fighters and Barbarians, Paladins do not rely of STR for damage. You would want a higher CHA than anything else. You need at least a 15 STR for heavy armor but if you want higher than that get magic items. There are enough out there that you dont have to rely on ASI points to increase it. Put more in Charisma to increase things on your Devotion Paladin. Get Res (Con) feat as soon as possible.
I think I get what you are saying. But paladins still do rely on STR for damage. We can't smite all the time or we run out of spell slots quickly. Outside of smites, we are generally doing weapon damage + modifiers, one of the main of which is STR. STR also gives us a plus to hit. Outside of the Devotion channel divinity and multi-classing into warlock, your STR will be more useful than CHA with your chances to hit and thus do damage. I think Conquest gets Spiritual Weapon, which would add your spell casting modifier. But outside of those few instances, STR is still pretty useful and something we rely on. :)
But I get that you think CHA is better overall, than STR for a paladin. CHA certainly effects a number of other things, including party buffs like your aura of protection which is phenomenally good. It also will raise your spell DC which is always useful. Paladins are just a MAD class, being pulled in multiple directions by our stat needs.
I will tell you from experience you can make it all way yo level 10 in Decent to Avernus with zero difficulty. While you are right Paladins do run out of spell slots eventually they are not as reliant on modifiers as fighters and Barbarians. Further channel divinity comes back.
Additionally if your concerned about strength there are more magic items that increase strength than any other ability.
I will tell you from experience you can make it all way yo level 10 in Decent to Avernus with zero difficulty. While you are right Paladins do run out of spell slots eventually they are not as reliant on modifiers as fighters and Barbarians. Further channel divinity comes back.
Additionally if your concerned about strength there are more magic items that increase strength than any other ability.
True, but that depends on your DM giving you something that raises your Str. I try not to count on a magic item that may or may not ever show up for me. And how much a paladin relies on modifiers will also depend on their build and play style. A vengeance paladin with polearm master and great weapon master loves those modifiers! ;)
Yet mechanically when compared to a S&B Paladin your not talking a huge increase in damage output over the two. Paladins as a class are better than Fighters at Sword and Board. Conversely Fighters are superior at GWM and Polearm. Paladins are a Nova Damage Class. They will never compete in damage overtime.
As far as the DM giving you items.... Well if you cant buy a uncommon magic item when you have the gold to do so or dont stumble across the item that's a shit DM.
Yet mechanically when compared to a S&B Paladin your not talking a huge increase in damage output over the two. Paladins as a class are better than Fighters at Sword and Board. Conversely Fighters are superior at GWM and Polearm. Paladins are a Nova Damage Class. They will never compete in damage overtime.
As far as the DM giving you items.... Well if you cant buy a uncommon magic item when you have the gold to do so or dont stumble across the item that's a shit DM.
Ever played Rime of the Frostmaiden? No magic shop and not much loot, that I have seen so far! lol
Uh huh. Did you miss the part where I said a 15 in STR holds you easily over until 10th level in Avernus? Mind you Avernus is a more difficult campaign and you need magic weapons to really be effective. Well other classes do Devotion Paladin doesnt really need a magic weapon.
Rime of the Frostmaiden is only a 1-12th level adventure. Soooooo yeah. Again Str past 15 isnt a requirement for a Paladin to be effective. At most you'd increase your STR by dumping all ASI in to STR by 3 when there are far more important things you need like Res Con, tough and CHA to boost Aura of Protection, Sacred Weapon, and Spell DC. No boosting CHA is far more important than boosting STR not only for yourself but the entire Party.
If you want to try to continue to make the statement make a character using point by up to level 12 no magic items and we will compare stats. You will do only a couple points more of damage a turn have lower to hit and far lower saves.
Uh huh. Did you miss the part where I said a 15 in STR holds you easily over until 10th level in Avernus? Mind you Avernus is a more difficult campaign and you need magic weapons to really be effective. Well other classes do Devotion Paladin doesnt really need a magic weapon.
Rime of the Frostmaiden is only a 1-12th level adventure. Soooooo yeah. Again Str past 15 isnt a requirement for a Paladin to be effective. At most you'd increase your STR by dumping all ASI in to STR by 3 when there are far more important things you need like Res Con, tough and CHA to boost Aura of Protection, Sacred Weapon, and Spell DC. No boosting CHA is far more important than boosting STR not only for yourself but the entire Party.
If you want to try to continue to make the statement make a character using point by up to level 12 no magic items and we will compare stats. You will do only a couple points more of damage a turn have lower to hit and far lower saves.
I think you missed where I was saying that to a 2h weapon using vengeance paladin, the modifiers are pretty important. GWM, by itself, is a +10 to damage. But not trying to argue with you. We disagree is all. Have a great day.
GWM's +10 modifier is not the discussion and if it were your chance to hit is greatly reduced. STR past 15 is. At no point have I said modifiers werent important. What I stated for is that using ASI to increase STR past 15 is not important for a Paladin. The damage increase is mere single digits and does not out weight the benefits you would get from using ASI elsewhere or feats in its place.
For the record I've built a GWM Paladin and if he ever completes his quest to get the items hes searching for he is absolutely broken dealing about 100 points of damage a turn rolling straight 1s. Mind you when I built him that was not the goal I built for flavor an inadvertently made a very broken in melee. The only reason he is even remotely good at anything else is he relies on the items that is part of his background which allows points and feats to be used in the place. Otherwise he wouldnt hold a candle to my S&B Paladin.
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3 people. Fairly difficult combat (but fair). Party:
- Horizon Walker Ranger (DPR focused with a bow)
- Alchemist Artificer / Rogue (low DPR, mostly focused on Utility and Exploration. Has more HP than my paladin and loves hiding in cover. Not really a hero)
- Me, thinking if I should a Tank/Control type (Conquest?), help with DPR (maybe Vengeance?) or an all-rounder (Devotion?)
As FS I am thinking between Blessed Warrior or good old Defense. Not bothering with polearms, but GWM is interesting to me.
Ancients is another to consider for control/tanking.
It sounds like you’re going to be alone in melee a lot. As such I’d go sword and board/defense, no matter the oath. You’ll be drawing lots of attacks, so keep that ac high. And ancients resistance to spells can be incredible, though it’s a bit campaign dependent on you DM throwing casters at you.
Whatever you feel like playing, honestly. Most of the subclasses are good with 1h and shield or a 2h for more damage. Vengeance, conquest and ancients are all good choices. I like devotion too, though. So there are a number of good options. Go with the one you think would be most interesting and appeals to you. Don't worry about your role in the party, since most of them can either do good damage or tank, if need be.
p.s. I will say, if you want to tank, then vengeance probably wouldn't be my first option. I think vengeance is best with a hard hitting 2h. Not that vengeance can't tank, but I would probably take a different subclass if that was what I wanted to do.
Alright, thanks a lot for the feedback! I went with Devotion S&B focusing on Charisma and feels really good with this group :D
I would argue Devotion is the better overal Paladin of the 3 choices you put out there. I build Paladins all the time.
The biggest thing people seem to forget is unlike Fighters and Barbarians, Paladins do not rely of STR for damage. You would want a higher CHA than anything else. You need at least a 15 STR for heavy armor but if you want higher than that get magic items. There are enough out there that you dont have to rely on ASI points to increase it. Put more in Charisma to increase things on your Devotion Paladin. Get Res (Con) feat as soon as possible.
I think I get what you are saying. But paladins still do rely on STR for damage. We can't smite all the time or we run out of spell slots quickly. Outside of smites, we are generally doing weapon damage + modifiers, one of the main of which is STR. STR also gives us a plus to hit. Outside of the Devotion channel divinity and multi-classing into warlock, your STR will be more useful than CHA with your chances to hit and thus do damage. I think Conquest gets Spiritual Weapon, which would add your spell casting modifier. But outside of those few instances, STR is still pretty useful and something we rely on. :)
But I get that you think CHA is better overall, than STR for a paladin. CHA certainly effects a number of other things, including party buffs like your aura of protection which is phenomenally good. It also will raise your spell DC which is always useful. Paladins are just a MAD class, being pulled in multiple directions by our stat needs.
I will tell you from experience you can make it all way yo level 10 in Decent to Avernus with zero difficulty. While you are right Paladins do run out of spell slots eventually they are not as reliant on modifiers as fighters and Barbarians. Further channel divinity comes back.
Additionally if your concerned about strength there are more magic items that increase strength than any other ability.
True, but that depends on your DM giving you something that raises your Str. I try not to count on a magic item that may or may not ever show up for me. And how much a paladin relies on modifiers will also depend on their build and play style. A vengeance paladin with polearm master and great weapon master loves those modifiers! ;)
Yet mechanically when compared to a S&B Paladin your not talking a huge increase in damage output over the two. Paladins as a class are better than Fighters at Sword and Board. Conversely Fighters are superior at GWM and Polearm. Paladins are a Nova Damage Class. They will never compete in damage overtime.
As far as the DM giving you items.... Well if you cant buy a uncommon magic item when you have the gold to do so or dont stumble across the item that's a shit DM.
Ever played Rime of the Frostmaiden? No magic shop and not much loot, that I have seen so far! lol
Uh huh. Did you miss the part where I said a 15 in STR holds you easily over until 10th level in Avernus? Mind you Avernus is a more difficult campaign and you need magic weapons to really be effective. Well other classes do Devotion Paladin doesnt really need a magic weapon.
Rime of the Frostmaiden is only a 1-12th level adventure. Soooooo yeah. Again Str past 15 isnt a requirement for a Paladin to be effective. At most you'd increase your STR by dumping all ASI in to STR by 3 when there are far more important things you need like Res Con, tough and CHA to boost Aura of Protection, Sacred Weapon, and Spell DC. No boosting CHA is far more important than boosting STR not only for yourself but the entire Party.
If you want to try to continue to make the statement make a character using point by up to level 12 no magic items and we will compare stats. You will do only a couple points more of damage a turn have lower to hit and far lower saves.
I think you missed where I was saying that to a 2h weapon using vengeance paladin, the modifiers are pretty important. GWM, by itself, is a +10 to damage. But not trying to argue with you. We disagree is all. Have a great day.
GWM's +10 modifier is not the discussion and if it were your chance to hit is greatly reduced. STR past 15 is. At no point have I said modifiers werent important. What I stated for is that using ASI to increase STR past 15 is not important for a Paladin. The damage increase is mere single digits and does not out weight the benefits you would get from using ASI elsewhere or feats in its place.
For the record I've built a GWM Paladin and if he ever completes his quest to get the items hes searching for he is absolutely broken dealing about 100 points of damage a turn rolling straight 1s. Mind you when I built him that was not the goal I built for flavor an inadvertently made a very broken in melee. The only reason he is even remotely good at anything else is he relies on the items that is part of his background which allows points and feats to be used in the place. Otherwise he wouldnt hold a candle to my S&B Paladin.