I just got done a 1-11 campaign with a single-classed Kender Conquest Paladin. I had a blast playing that character. She was all about fear with the Sword Knigt feat and fear spell and conquest CD and aura. She was primarily Charisma focused.
This was actually the first Paladin I played.
We are going to start another campaign. This one is level 1-20 point buy.
The new character is going to be a Shaddar-Kai from the Shadowfell, loyal subject of the Raven Queen. She is going to start Paladin, then go two levels in War Magic then to level 6 in Paladin. At that point she will be Paladin 6/War Magic 2. Then probably Paladin for the rest. Her starting stats will be S16, D8, C10, I14, W8, CH17
The Wizard is mostly for defense with shield, Absorb Elements, False Life, Feather fall and rituals.
I like the Conquest Paladin spells better, especially Armor of Agathys and Fear at 9th level. On the other hand I just played a conquest so someting a bit different might be good, and the Vengence Paladin CD can lock down an enemy and incapacitate them for an entire fight with no more saves until he is damaged. Either way they are going to primarily invest in Charisma. Start with a 17 and take Shadow Touched, then a Charisma ASI.
I am also toying with the idea of stopping Paladin at level 6 and then triple classing to Divine Soul Sorcerer and going the rest of the way as a Sorc. That would give me more slots as well as quicken spell letting me use a good spell and still getting in extra attack and smites.
I know having War Wizard in conjunction with Aura is something that gets people excited but what you are no accounting for is just how terrible that 10 con is for you as a frontline martial. And you will have that 10 con for a long time without the payoff of your dip. If you absolutely insist, then at least go to 12 con and 13 int.
I would go for Vengeance just to switch it up and experience something different.
I know having War Wizard in conjunction with Aura is something that gets people excited but what you are no accounting for is just how terrible that 10 con is for you as a frontline martial. And you will have that 10 con for a long time without the payoff of your dip. If you absolutely insist, then at least go to 12 con and 13 int.
I would go for Vengeance just to switch it up and experience something different.
I have played a lot of front liners with a 10 Con. As long as you can get either Armor of Agathys or False Life and have spell slots to upcast it you are fine. On a multiclass character this is even more attractive because you have slots avaialble with no higher-level spells. For example at level 2/2 she is going to have 2nd level slots but no second level spells. Upcast false life on a 2nd level slot is about 12 temp hps, which at 4th level is as much as she would get out of a 16 con.
I would rather take the extra point in intelligence and use false life to get better hit points than give up the extra spell prepared and the point on investigation and Arcana skills. For example, even at 8th level, a 2nd level false is still worth more than 2 points in con and worth almost 4 points in con. Also my initiative will be horrible with an 8 Dex and the extra point in intelligence will make my initiative with warcaster 1 point better. Also she is a Shaddar Kai which is going to mean she is going to have resistance to damage fairly often through blessing of the Raven Queen
My Conquest Paladin I just finished with was single class and had a 12 con (and AOA) and she did well even using mostly two handed weapons (Lance and versatile Longsword specifically). Without a shield or a shield spell she did not have a great AC and she still did ok, I don't think she went down at all in those 11 levels. This character will have a better AC running either a shield and the War Mage reaction or running the shield spell.
War Wizard is not the move here. You do not have the stats to make a frontliner with 3 primary attributes. You just don't. You're doing point buy.
Paladin is already a stretch because you have 2 primary stats and need a decent 3rd. Adding in a whole extra primary isn't the move.
Heck, a 1 level dip into Hexblade is often the power move because it drops it to only 1 primary stat plus con. Especially if you're picking up sorc later? THATs the move.
Plus it gives you your Armor of Agathys and Shield for defensive reasons. Way better than splitting your stats 3 ways and losing all your con.
War Wizard is not the move here. You do not have the stats to make a frontliner with 3 primary attributes. You just don't. You're doing point buy.
Int is not really a primary ability, you only need a 13. I think it will actually be a better front liner than a single class Paladin due to the shield spell and higher slots for Sheild or Armor of Agathys
Starting with a 17 Charisma, 16 Strength and 13 Intelligence, I can still get a 12 Constitution, which is all I would normally put on a Paladin anyway. IMO though a 10 Con and 14 Intelligece is going to be better for the extra +1 to initiative.
Heck, a 1 level dip into Hexblade is often the power move because it drops it to only 1 primary stat plus con. Especially if you're picking up sorc later? THATs the move.
Not really. Unless you are a Dwarf you still need a 15 strength anyway to get an AC equal to a Paladin-Wizard and you are doing it with fewer spell slots for shield and lower level spell slots for AOA or False Life. To use Charisma, you also are limited to weapon choices that are not as effective.
I have seen Hexadin played before and although it is powerful it is not overly so. As a matter of fact if I were dipping Warlock with Paladin, I would go Undead because the Frightened rider is going to be better than using Charisma on attacks. Hitting enemies with a Glaive from 10 feet away with a Glaive or Halberd and imposing frightened so they can't close with you is pretty awesome, better I would argue than hitting with a longsword while standing next to him with a +1 to attack and Damage. After you have FOD up you can combine it with Wrathful Smite to Frighten two enemies.
Plus it gives you your Armor of Agathys and Shield for defensive reasons. Way better than splitting your stats 3 ways and losing all your con.
Conquest Paladin already gets Armor of Agathys on his Paladin list and with a Wizard multiclass you have higher level slots to use with it, it addition to Shield.
Alternatively if you go Vengence you can get False Life as a Wizard which gives you more temp hit points than AOA for the same slot cost (but does not damage enemies).
War Wizard is not the move here. You do not have the stats to make a frontliner with 3 primary attributes. You just don't. You're doing point buy.
Int is not really a primary ability, you only need a 13. I think it will actually be a better front liner than a single class Paladin due to the shield spell and higher slots for Sheild or Armor of Agathys
Starting with a 17 Charisma, 16 Strength and 13 Intelligence, I can still get a 12 Constitution, which is all I would normally put on a Paladin anyway. IMO though a 10 Con and 14 Intelligece is going to be better for the extra +1 to initiative.
If you cared about initiative you wouldn't dump your dex to 8.
Hexblade gets those spells. Dump Int instead because it is useless for the paladin. You end up with the same init. And way higher Con.
10 con? That's legit madness for a frontliner.
Heck, a 1 level dip into Hexblade is often the power move because it drops it to only 1 primary stat plus con. Especially if you're picking up sorc later? THATs the move.
Not really. Unless you are a Dwarf you still need a 15 strength anyway to get an AC equal to a Paladin-Wizard and you are doing it with fewer spell slots for shield and lower level spell slots for AOA or False Life. To use Charisma, you also are limited to weapon choices that are not as effective.
Fun Fact: Sorecers get the same number of spell slots as Wizards do.
Crazy. I KNOW. I must have just blown your mind.
I have seen Hexadin played before and although it is powerful it is not overly so. As a matter of fact if I were dipping Warlock with Paladin, I would go Undead because the Frightened rider is going to be better than using Charisma on attacks. Hitting enemies with a Glaive from 10 feet away with a Glaive or Halberd and imposing frightened so they can't close with you is pretty awesome, better I would argue than hitting with a longsword while standing next to him with a +1 to attack and Damage. After you have FOD up you can combine it with Wrathful Smite to Frighten two enemies.
Fear is great if you're going Conquest. You specifically said you wanted to not do that though so IDK why you're backtracking now.
Plus it gives you your Armor of Agathys and Shield for defensive reasons. Way better than splitting your stats 3 ways and losing all your con.
Conquest Paladin already gets Armor of Agathys on his Paladin list and with a Wizard multiclass you have higher level slots to use with it, it addition to Shield.
This was supposedly advice for a NON-conquest paladin multiclass.
It therefore would not have either Agathys or Shield. Hexblade gives it both.
Alternatively if you go Vengence you can get False Life as a Wizard which gives you more temp hit points than AOA for the same slot cost (but does not damage enemies).
False Life is garbage if you have Agathys as an option.
War Wizard is not the move here. You do not have the stats to make a frontliner with 3 primary attributes. You just don't. You're doing point buy.
Int is not really a primary ability, you only need a 13. I think it will actually be a better front liner than a single class Paladin due to the shield spell and higher slots for Sheild or Armor of Agathys
Starting with a 17 Charisma, 16 Strength and 13 Intelligence, I can still get a 12 Constitution, which is all I would normally put on a Paladin anyway. IMO though a 10 Con and 14 Intelligece is going to be better for the extra +1 to initiative.
If you cared about initiative you wouldn't dump your dex to 8.
By multiclassing Wizard I can dump Dex to 8 and still have a +1. That is the point.
Hexblade gets those spells.
So does a Wizard and gets more uses and gets a +4 to saves as a reaction
Dump Int instead because it is useless for the paladin. You end up with the same init. And way higher Con.
No you won't end up with the same initiative unless you dumped constitution. With 9 points on Charisma and 8 on strength you are left with 10 total to spend. A War Mage with an 8 Dex and a 14 Intelligence has a +1 initiative. Without the multiclass you would need to push Dex to 12 for that which is 4 points and Dex is just as useless to a Paladin.
Now you could Forgo Heavy Armor and push Dex to 14. But you still need a 13 Strength to multiclass so you would not be able to max constitution and your AC would be lower.
10 con? That's legit madness for a frontliner.
Not when you have False Life and Armor of Agathys and high level slots to use on them.
Here is the math at 8th level as an example:
8th level Paladin 6/War Mage 2 running a 3rd level False Life and a 10 Constitution you have 65.5 total hit points on average (48+17.5 temp).
8th level single class 8th level Single-class Paladin with a 14 Constitution has 68 hit points and has much a lower AC, much lower saves than the Wizard multiclass, 2 points lower in initiative and three fewer spells prepared (including no shield and no absorb elements)
8th level Paladin7/Hexblade1 with a 14 Constitution and a 2nd level AOA (no 3rd level slots) has 77 total hit points, the same AC with shield, lower without shield spell, much lower saves, fewer spell slots, 2 points lower in initiative and 2 fewer spells prepared (including no absorb elements)
Fun Fact: Sorecers get the same number of spell slots as Wizards do.
Sure but they don't get the +4 bonus to saves, +2 bonus to initiative or +2 bonus to AC when not using shield spell.
Crazy. I KNOW. I must have just blown your mind.
Fear is great if you're going Conquest. You specifically said you wanted to not do that though so IDK why you're backtracking now.
no I didn't. The thread is actually about Conquest vs Vengence, both of which have Frightened as a Channel Divinity effect. I said something different (different from Conquest) might be good.
This was supposedly advice for a NON-conquest paladin multiclass.
That is not what this thread is about, it is specifically about comparing a Conquest and Vengance build. Both of them are going to Frighten.
False Life is garbage if you have Agathys as an option.
I have played False Life a lot on melee characters. It is more temp hps than AOA provides for the same slot. AOA has the advantage of damaging enemies who hit you in melee, but unless you are using high level slots it is not much damage and if you are playing a high AC your hope is to avoid getting hit by attacks and then much of the time you are losing the hit points to spells and AOEs anyway.
I will agree AOA is better, but it is not a lot better unless you are a full caster and can burn high level slots on it. On a melee Cleric or Wizard it can be really good. On a half-caster though it is not much damage even if it does land. A 10th level cleric who gets AOA can put down a 25hp AOA which is a nice bit to dish out if you are hit in melee. A 10th level Paladin (or Paladin with Warlock Dip) can only do 15 and that 15hps cuts into his daily spells more than the 25 would cut into the cleric's spells.
You really need to take a closer look at the spell mate, False Life is 1d4+4. So 5 to 8 Temp HP. Avg 6.5
And it adds +5 THP per slot above 1st. So:
5 vs 6.5
10 vs 11.5
15 vs 16.5
20 vs 21.5
25 vs 26.5
Literally 1.5 THP more BUT DOESN'T EVER REFLECT DAMAGE.
False Life is Steaming Hot Garbage when you have Agathys instead.
You said: I like the Conquest Paladin spells better, especially Armor of Agathys and Fear at 9th level. On the other hand I just played a conquest so someting a bit different might be good, and the Vengence Paladin CD can lock down an enemy and incapacitate them for an entire fight with no more saves until he is damaged.
So pardon me for thinking you just played a Conquest paladin and wanted to play a Vengeance paladin but also wanted Armor of Agathys. Where'd I get that idea from silly me. How horrible of me to suggest something that literally is exactly what you asked for.
You really gotta stop repeating the false info that a multiclass into wizard would have more spell slots than a multiclass into sorcerer. They're both full casters. They both contribute to spell slots identically. And, due to sorlock shenanigans with short rests, it'd actually be vastly more spell slots.
Stats. 15/10/16/8/8/16 or 15/12/14/8/8/17. Both far and away better. Miles better. Leagues. You won't be dangerously low HP as a frontliner. Same initiative range too. Literally is only equal or better. Wanna go med armor? 13/14/14/8/8/17 and that'll get you even higher Init. You intentionally choosing a 16/8/10/14/8/17 spread is undoubtedly going to get your character killed. You'll have the HP of an average wizard character. Wait, no, less, because you'll actually be taking wizard levels and have several wiz HD on top of the zero con mod. You'll have LESS HP than an average wizard character.
On top of that, as you level up, you're going to take a half feat at Pala 4, sure, but now your two most important stats are a 16 which you're using for attacking, and an 18 for spells and features. Fine at low level, but then you're taking 2 levels of wizard, and then another 2 levels of Pala. So At L8 you're still using a 16 as your primary attack stat. And not able to bump it until L10. But that's IF you stay Pala and not instead go into Sorc like you suggested. If you did that instead you're not getting a 2nd ASI until Sorc 4, at L12. So At L12 you're either upping cha to 20 or Str to also 18. Assuming Cha to 20, you're really behind the curve now, offensively, still rocking that 16 Str you started with at level 1.
Alternatively, if you start with the 16/17 Cha but have hex warrior, you're only worried about getting Cha up. So That 1st ASI to get it to 18 keep you fully relevant while you're busy in the mid levels not getting another ASI due to all the multiclass shenanigans.
Idk, I feel like you don't actually want advice and I shouldn't have even responded. That's on me. But on a scale of 1 to 10, how good a build is it to multiclass a MAD paladin into Wizard and dump Con and expect to fight in melee? About a -3.
You really need to take a closer look at the spell mate, False Life is 1d4+4. So 5 to 8 Temp HP. Avg 6.5
And it adds +5 THP per slot above 1st. So:
5 vs 6.5
10 vs 11.5
15 vs 16.5
20 vs 21.5
25 vs 26.5
Literally 1.5 THP more BUT DOESN'T EVER REFLECT DAMAGE.
False Life is Steaming Hot Garbage when you have Agathys instead.
Sure, but with a Wizard you get higher level slots. With a 2-level dip it is literally an entire extra level. So at 8th level for example you are comparing 10hps from AOA vs 16.5 from False Life on the first casting and the Wizard has more slots left over after he casts it for even more.
If you are looking at it from an adventuring day she can cast 2 3rd level False Lifes before she is even down to the same number of slots as the Paladin-Warlock. So at that point she still has second level spells to use.
In terms of all your 2nd and 3rd level slots in an adventuring day:
Wizard 2-Paladin6: 3-2nd level slots and 2 3rd level slots on false life equals 67 temp hit points on False Life. If you are playing Conquest it is 60hps on AOA.
In either case the Wizard is way ahead because of the higher level slots.
You said: I like the Conquest Paladin spells better, especially Armor of Agathys and Fear at 9th level. On the other hand I just played a conquest so someting a bit different might be good, and the Vengence Paladin CD can lock down an enemy and incapacitate them for an entire fight with no more saves until he is damaged.
So pardon me for thinking you just played a Conquest paladin and wanted to play a Vengeance paladin but also wanted Armor of Agathys. Where'd I get that idea from silly me. How horrible of me to suggest something that literally is exactly what you asked for.
I was wondering if I should play Conquest or Vengence. That is the whole point of the thread. The fact I just played a Conquest is a reason to try something different. That Conquest has AOA is a reason NOT to play something different.
You really gotta stop repeating the false info that a multiclass into wizard would have more spell slots than a multiclass into sorcerer. They're both full casters. They both contribute to spell slots identically. And, due to sorlock shenanigans with short rests, it'd actually be vastly more spell slots.
Sorlock using flexible casting depends entirely on how many short rests you get. A multiclass wizard and a Sorcerer of the same level have the same number of slots. If you also triple class to Warlock you need 3 levels to do that (2 Sorc levels for flexible casting and 1 Warlock level for a single warlock slot).
It is also not "vastly" more slots, and when it comes to slots that count it is less.
At 8th level for example comparing Paladin 6/Wizard 2 vs Paladin5/Sorc2/Warlock1 -
Without using channel divinity-Harness Divine Power for slots:
The Wizard multiclass gets 5 1st level, 3 2nd level and 2 3rd spells per day. This number includes Arcane Recovery.
The Triple class gets: 6 1st level, 3 2nd level plus one more 1st level slot per short rest. That number includes conversion of the first two sorcery points to a 1st level slot.
So this character is behind a Wizard 2 full 3rd level slots and compared to the multiclass and has a -8 on saving throws (4 less because he is only 5th level Paladin, 4 less because he is not a War Wizard). With Flexible casting you can never get more than 2 sorcerery points and if you convert your warlock slots to SPs to slots you need two short rests for every 1st level slot you add (so you are actually losing slots compared to just casting it).
You get fewer slots if yoou engage in "shenanigans" . You can only get a 1st level slot through Flexible casting and you need 2 short rests for each slot you get. Getting half of a spell slot every short rest, how many short rests is it going to take to make up for the fact you have no 3rd level slots at all?
Now if you go up one level P6/S2/W1 they are a lot closer, but then the multiclass is way behind again at 10th level.
Stats. 15/10/16/8/8/16 or 15/12/14/8/8/17. Both far and away better. Miles better. Leagues. You won't be dangerously low HP as a frontliner. Same initiative range too. Literally is only equal or better.
The second example is 28 point buy +1STR/+2Charisma - (8 points/4 points/7 points/0 points/0 points/9 points) = 28. You would need to either go with a lower Con or a lower Charisma (and give up a half feat). That is not possible to do with a Shaddar Kai on point buy and that was my point.
The first example is doable on point buy but it is not the same initiative, you have a lower initiative than a War Wizard with an 8 Dex and 14 Wisdom
Both of these examples are inferior in terms of DPR using weaker weapons and are tied to a single weapon and have MUCH lower saves.
Wanna go med armor? 13/14/14/8/8/17 and that'll get you even higher Init.
And a lower AC.
You intentionally choosing a 16/8/10/14/8/17 spread is undoubtedly going to get your character killed.
We will see. I have played plenty of front liners with a 10 con before and never got a single one killed. I did lose a character with a 12 Cpon last week, but she was not a front liner and she would have dies with a 20 constitution.
You'll have the HP of an average wizard character. Wait, no, less, because you'll actually be taking wizard levels and have several wiz HD on top of the zero con mod. You'll have LESS HP than an average wizard character.
I will have 2 levels in Wizard and the rest of levels in Paladin and my highest level slots will be used on False Life (or AOA).
Con mod is overated when hit points are cheap to come by with spell slots.
On top of that, as you level up, you're going to take a half feat at Pala 4, sure, but now your two most important stats are a 16 which you're using for attacking, and an 18 for spells and features.
You can play to level 20 with a 16 attack stat and Strength-boosting magic is relatively easy to come by. As important as the stat is the weapon selection and I will be able to use any melee weapon we find effectively.
A Character with a 16 strength wielding a +1 Greatsword is doing more damage than a character with an 18 attack stat wielding a +1 Longsword with 2 hands and in addition I have more slots to smite with and regardless of what melee weapon we find I can use it effectively.
The highest damage reach weapon in the game is a lance and I can rock that easy. Meanwhile if the Haxadin wants reach he is going 1d4 on damage.
If you did that instead you're not getting a 2nd ASI until Sorc 4, at L12. So At L12 you're either upping cha to 20 or Str to also 18. Assuming Cha to 20, you're really behind the curve now, offensively, still rocking that 16 Str you started with at level 1.
There is no comparison here, between these two I would take Charisma over Strength any day of the week. But if I am going sorc levels that is a ton of slots to more than make up for a lower strength I think and it means I can look at other feats at 12the level. For example, if we find an awesome Glaive I can take PAM or GWM.
Alternatively, if you start with the 16/17 Cha but have hex warrior, you're only worried about getting Cha up. So That 1st ASI to get it to 18 keep you fully relevant while you're busy in the mid levels not getting another ASI due to all the multiclass shenanigans.
Sure but you are very restricted on weapon selection and have fewer slots (especially high level slots).
Idk, I feel like you don't actually want advice and I shouldn't have even responded. That's on me. But on a scale of 1 to 10, how good a build is it to multiclass a MAD paladin into Wizard and dump Con and expect to fight in melee? About a -3.
the build is a War Wizard-Paladin. The advice needed was on Conquest vs Vengence and on Paladin vs Sorc levels after level 8.
I just got done a 1-11 campaign with a single-classed Kender Conquest Paladin. I had a blast playing that character. She was all about fear with the Sword Knigt feat and fear spell and conquest CD and aura. She was primarily Charisma focused.
This was actually the first Paladin I played.
We are going to start another campaign. This one is level 1-20 point buy.
The new character is going to be a Shaddar-Kai from the Shadowfell, loyal subject of the Raven Queen. She is going to start Paladin, then go two levels in War Magic then to level 6 in Paladin. At that point she will be Paladin 6/War Magic 2. Then probably Paladin for the rest. Her starting stats will be S16, D8, C10, I14, W8, CH17
The Wizard is mostly for defense with shield, Absorb Elements, False Life, Feather fall and rituals.
I like the Conquest Paladin spells better, especially Armor of Agathys and Fear at 9th level. On the other hand I just played a conquest so someting a bit different might be good, and the Vengence Paladin CD can lock down an enemy and incapacitate them for an entire fight with no more saves until he is damaged. Either way they are going to primarily invest in Charisma. Start with a 17 and take Shadow Touched, then a Charisma ASI.
I am also toying with the idea of stopping Paladin at level 6 and then triple classing to Divine Soul Sorcerer and going the rest of the way as a Sorc. That would give me more slots as well as quicken spell letting me use a good spell and still getting in extra attack and smites.
I know having War Wizard in conjunction with Aura is something that gets people excited but what you are no accounting for is just how terrible that 10 con is for you as a frontline martial. And you will have that 10 con for a long time without the payoff of your dip. If you absolutely insist, then at least go to 12 con and 13 int.
I would go for Vengeance just to switch it up and experience something different.
I have played a lot of front liners with a 10 Con. As long as you can get either Armor of Agathys or False Life and have spell slots to upcast it you are fine. On a multiclass character this is even more attractive because you have slots avaialble with no higher-level spells. For example at level 2/2 she is going to have 2nd level slots but no second level spells. Upcast false life on a 2nd level slot is about 12 temp hps, which at 4th level is as much as she would get out of a 16 con.
I would rather take the extra point in intelligence and use false life to get better hit points than give up the extra spell prepared and the point on investigation and Arcana skills. For example, even at 8th level, a 2nd level false is still worth more than 2 points in con and worth almost 4 points in con. Also my initiative will be horrible with an 8 Dex and the extra point in intelligence will make my initiative with warcaster 1 point better. Also she is a Shaddar Kai which is going to mean she is going to have resistance to damage fairly often through blessing of the Raven Queen
My Conquest Paladin I just finished with was single class and had a 12 con (and AOA) and she did well even using mostly two handed weapons (Lance and versatile Longsword specifically). Without a shield or a shield spell she did not have a great AC and she still did ok, I don't think she went down at all in those 11 levels. This character will have a better AC running either a shield and the War Mage reaction or running the shield spell.
War Wizard is not the move here. You do not have the stats to make a frontliner with 3 primary attributes. You just don't. You're doing point buy.
Paladin is already a stretch because you have 2 primary stats and need a decent 3rd. Adding in a whole extra primary isn't the move.
Heck, a 1 level dip into Hexblade is often the power move because it drops it to only 1 primary stat plus con. Especially if you're picking up sorc later? THATs the move.
Plus it gives you your Armor of Agathys and Shield for defensive reasons. Way better than splitting your stats 3 ways and losing all your con.
I got quotes!
Int is not really a primary ability, you only need a 13. I think it will actually be a better front liner than a single class Paladin due to the shield spell and higher slots for Sheild or Armor of Agathys
Starting with a 17 Charisma, 16 Strength and 13 Intelligence, I can still get a 12 Constitution, which is all I would normally put on a Paladin anyway. IMO though a 10 Con and 14 Intelligece is going to be better for the extra +1 to initiative.
Not really. Unless you are a Dwarf you still need a 15 strength anyway to get an AC equal to a Paladin-Wizard and you are doing it with fewer spell slots for shield and lower level spell slots for AOA or False Life. To use Charisma, you also are limited to weapon choices that are not as effective.
I have seen Hexadin played before and although it is powerful it is not overly so. As a matter of fact if I were dipping Warlock with Paladin, I would go Undead because the Frightened rider is going to be better than using Charisma on attacks. Hitting enemies with a Glaive from 10 feet away with a Glaive or Halberd and imposing frightened so they can't close with you is pretty awesome, better I would argue than hitting with a longsword while standing next to him with a +1 to attack and Damage. After you have FOD up you can combine it with Wrathful Smite to Frighten two enemies.
Conquest Paladin already gets Armor of Agathys on his Paladin list and with a Wizard multiclass you have higher level slots to use with it, it addition to Shield.
Alternatively if you go Vengence you can get False Life as a Wizard which gives you more temp hit points than AOA for the same slot cost (but does not damage enemies).
If you cared about initiative you wouldn't dump your dex to 8.
Hexblade gets those spells. Dump Int instead because it is useless for the paladin. You end up with the same init. And way higher Con.
10 con? That's legit madness for a frontliner.
Fun Fact: Sorecers get the same number of spell slots as Wizards do.
Crazy. I KNOW. I must have just blown your mind.
Fear is great if you're going Conquest. You specifically said you wanted to not do that though so IDK why you're backtracking now.
This was supposedly advice for a NON-conquest paladin multiclass.
It therefore would not have either Agathys or Shield. Hexblade gives it both.
False Life is garbage if you have Agathys as an option.
I got quotes!
By multiclassing Wizard I can dump Dex to 8 and still have a +1. That is the point.
So does a Wizard and gets more uses and gets a +4 to saves as a reaction
No you won't end up with the same initiative unless you dumped constitution. With 9 points on Charisma and 8 on strength you are left with 10 total to spend. A War Mage with an 8 Dex and a 14 Intelligence has a +1 initiative. Without the multiclass you would need to push Dex to 12 for that which is 4 points and Dex is just as useless to a Paladin.
Now you could Forgo Heavy Armor and push Dex to 14. But you still need a 13 Strength to multiclass so you would not be able to max constitution and your AC would be lower.
Not when you have False Life and Armor of Agathys and high level slots to use on them.
Here is the math at 8th level as an example:
8th level Paladin 6/War Mage 2 running a 3rd level False Life and a 10 Constitution you have 65.5 total hit points on average (48+17.5 temp).
8th level single class 8th level Single-class Paladin with a 14 Constitution has 68 hit points and has much a lower AC, much lower saves than the Wizard multiclass, 2 points lower in initiative and three fewer spells prepared (including no shield and no absorb elements)
8th level Paladin7/Hexblade1 with a 14 Constitution and a 2nd level AOA (no 3rd level slots) has 77 total hit points, the same AC with shield, lower without shield spell, much lower saves, fewer spell slots, 2 points lower in initiative and 2 fewer spells prepared (including no absorb elements)
Sure but they don't get the +4 bonus to saves, +2 bonus to initiative or +2 bonus to AC when not using shield spell.
no I didn't. The thread is actually about Conquest vs Vengence, both of which have Frightened as a Channel Divinity effect. I said something different (different from Conquest) might be good.
That is not what this thread is about, it is specifically about comparing a Conquest and Vengance build. Both of them are going to Frighten.
I have played False Life a lot on melee characters. It is more temp hps than AOA provides for the same slot. AOA has the advantage of damaging enemies who hit you in melee, but unless you are using high level slots it is not much damage and if you are playing a high AC your hope is to avoid getting hit by attacks and then much of the time you are losing the hit points to spells and AOEs anyway.
I will agree AOA is better, but it is not a lot better unless you are a full caster and can burn high level slots on it. On a melee Cleric or Wizard it can be really good. On a half-caster though it is not much damage even if it does land. A 10th level cleric who gets AOA can put down a 25hp AOA which is a nice bit to dish out if you are hit in melee. A 10th level Paladin (or Paladin with Warlock Dip) can only do 15 and that 15hps cuts into his daily spells more than the 25 would cut into the cleric's spells.
You really need to take a closer look at the spell mate, False Life is 1d4+4. So 5 to 8 Temp HP. Avg 6.5
And it adds +5 THP per slot above 1st. So:
Literally 1.5 THP more BUT DOESN'T EVER REFLECT DAMAGE.
False Life is Steaming Hot Garbage when you have Agathys instead.
You said: I like the Conquest Paladin spells better, especially Armor of Agathys and Fear at 9th level. On the other hand I just played a conquest so someting a bit different might be good, and the Vengence Paladin CD can lock down an enemy and incapacitate them for an entire fight with no more saves until he is damaged.
So pardon me for thinking you just played a Conquest paladin and wanted to play a Vengeance paladin but also wanted Armor of Agathys. Where'd I get that idea from silly me. How horrible of me to suggest something that literally is exactly what you asked for.
You really gotta stop repeating the false info that a multiclass into wizard would have more spell slots than a multiclass into sorcerer. They're both full casters. They both contribute to spell slots identically. And, due to sorlock shenanigans with short rests, it'd actually be vastly more spell slots.
Stats. 15/10/16/8/8/16 or 15/12/14/8/8/17. Both far and away better. Miles better. Leagues. You won't be dangerously low HP as a frontliner. Same initiative range too. Literally is only equal or better.
Wanna go med armor? 13/14/14/8/8/17 and that'll get you even higher Init.
You intentionally choosing a 16/8/10/14/8/17 spread is undoubtedly going to get your character killed. You'll have the HP of an average wizard character. Wait, no, less, because you'll actually be taking wizard levels and have several wiz HD on top of the zero con mod. You'll have LESS HP than an average wizard character.
On top of that, as you level up, you're going to take a half feat at Pala 4, sure, but now your two most important stats are a 16 which you're using for attacking, and an 18 for spells and features. Fine at low level, but then you're taking 2 levels of wizard, and then another 2 levels of Pala. So At L8 you're still using a 16 as your primary attack stat. And not able to bump it until L10. But that's IF you stay Pala and not instead go into Sorc like you suggested. If you did that instead you're not getting a 2nd ASI until Sorc 4, at L12. So At L12 you're either upping cha to 20 or Str to also 18. Assuming Cha to 20, you're really behind the curve now, offensively, still rocking that 16 Str you started with at level 1.
Alternatively, if you start with the 16/17 Cha but have hex warrior, you're only worried about getting Cha up. So That 1st ASI to get it to 18 keep you fully relevant while you're busy in the mid levels not getting another ASI due to all the multiclass shenanigans.
Idk, I feel like you don't actually want advice and I shouldn't have even responded. That's on me. But on a scale of 1 to 10, how good a build is it to multiclass a MAD paladin into Wizard and dump Con and expect to fight in melee? About a -3.
I got quotes!
Sure, but with a Wizard you get higher level slots. With a 2-level dip it is literally an entire extra level. So at 8th level for example you are comparing 10hps from AOA vs 16.5 from False Life on the first casting and the Wizard has more slots left over after he casts it for even more.
If you are looking at it from an adventuring day she can cast 2 3rd level False Lifes before she is even down to the same number of slots as the Paladin-Warlock. So at that point she still has second level spells to use.
In terms of all your 2nd and 3rd level slots in an adventuring day:
Warlock 1-Paladin 7: 3 2nd level slots equals 30hps on AOA
Wizard 2-Paladin6: 3-2nd level slots and 2 3rd level slots on false life equals 67 temp hit points on False Life. If you are playing Conquest it is 60hps on AOA.
In either case the Wizard is way ahead because of the higher level slots.
I was wondering if I should play Conquest or Vengence. That is the whole point of the thread. The fact I just played a Conquest is a reason to try something different. That Conquest has AOA is a reason NOT to play something different.
Sorlock using flexible casting depends entirely on how many short rests you get. A multiclass wizard and a Sorcerer of the same level have the same number of slots. If you also triple class to Warlock you need 3 levels to do that (2 Sorc levels for flexible casting and 1 Warlock level for a single warlock slot).
It is also not "vastly" more slots, and when it comes to slots that count it is less.
At 8th level for example comparing Paladin 6/Wizard 2 vs Paladin5/Sorc2/Warlock1 -
Without using channel divinity-Harness Divine Power for slots:
The Wizard multiclass gets 5 1st level, 3 2nd level and 2 3rd spells per day. This number includes Arcane Recovery.
The Triple class gets: 6 1st level, 3 2nd level plus one more 1st level slot per short rest. That number includes conversion of the first two sorcery points to a 1st level slot.
So this character is behind a Wizard 2 full 3rd level slots and compared to the multiclass and has a -8 on saving throws (4 less because he is only 5th level Paladin, 4 less because he is not a War Wizard). With Flexible casting you can never get more than 2 sorcerery points and if you convert your warlock slots to SPs to slots you need two short rests for every 1st level slot you add (so you are actually losing slots compared to just casting it).
You get fewer slots if yoou engage in "shenanigans" . You can only get a 1st level slot through Flexible casting and you need 2 short rests for each slot you get. Getting half of a spell slot every short rest, how many short rests is it going to take to make up for the fact you have no 3rd level slots at all?
Now if you go up one level P6/S2/W1 they are a lot closer, but then the multiclass is way behind again at 10th level.
The second example is 28 point buy +1STR/+2Charisma - (8 points/4 points/7 points/0 points/0 points/9 points) = 28. You would need to either go with a lower Con or a lower Charisma (and give up a half feat). That is not possible to do with a Shaddar Kai on point buy and that was my point.
The first example is doable on point buy but it is not the same initiative, you have a lower initiative than a War Wizard with an 8 Dex and 14 Wisdom
Both of these examples are inferior in terms of DPR using weaker weapons and are tied to a single weapon and have MUCH lower saves.
And a lower AC.
We will see. I have played plenty of front liners with a 10 con before and never got a single one killed. I did lose a character with a 12 Cpon last week, but she was not a front liner and she would have dies with a 20 constitution.
I will have 2 levels in Wizard and the rest of levels in Paladin and my highest level slots will be used on False Life (or AOA).
Con mod is overated when hit points are cheap to come by with spell slots.
You can play to level 20 with a 16 attack stat and Strength-boosting magic is relatively easy to come by. As important as the stat is the weapon selection and I will be able to use any melee weapon we find effectively.
A Character with a 16 strength wielding a +1 Greatsword is doing more damage than a character with an 18 attack stat wielding a +1 Longsword with 2 hands and in addition I have more slots to smite with and regardless of what melee weapon we find I can use it effectively.
The highest damage reach weapon in the game is a lance and I can rock that easy. Meanwhile if the Haxadin wants reach he is going 1d4 on damage.
There is no comparison here, between these two I would take Charisma over Strength any day of the week. But if I am going sorc levels that is a ton of slots to more than make up for a lower strength I think and it means I can look at other feats at 12the level. For example, if we find an awesome Glaive I can take PAM or GWM.
Sure but you are very restricted on weapon selection and have fewer slots (especially high level slots).
the build is a War Wizard-Paladin. The advice needed was on Conquest vs Vengence and on Paladin vs Sorc levels after level 8.