With the 2024 change making Divine Smite use a bonus action, I think the combo of Quickened Booming Blade + smites will no longer work. Or hastening any other spell as a bonus action.
So, is it still a good idea to multiclass into sorcerer?
If you still want to be a paladin with fireball, big slots for smiting, and the shield spell with lots of low level slots to pull it off.
Then yes. Sorcerer is still a good multiclass. THere are parts of it that are significantly weaker, but that doesn't mean its not good. You may find that Warlock is more valuable and has better synergy, but you will have more total slots with Sorcerer.
you're not going to smite every round, so you'll still get rounds to use Quickened Spell on which is still an extra attack, which paired with booming blade will make it quiet the powerful usage. Sorcerer also gives more spell slot progression, which gives stronger smites.
Warlock overall will be better due to pact of the blade making Paladin SAD, then at level 3, Fiend Vigor is just insane and Agonizing Blast on Eldritch Blast removes paladin's weakness of range too. Depending on how heavily the investment into Sorcerer is, there is a point (6 levels) where Bard becomes better than Sorcerer (due to College of Valor getting Bladesinger's extra attack), but that is a very heavy investment into a multiclass and probably at a level that most campaigns would never get too.
Given none of the Paladin spells or Paladin subclass / baseclass features care about being a Paladin (outside of OoG Inspiring Smite) every Charisma based fullcaster level is effectively rocket-fuel for your features / spells.
You're always going to be a stronger 2024 Paladin the faster you drop Paladin levels for Bard / Sorceror levels.
sadly the 2024 Paladin has been reduced to either a 1-2 lvl dip, for fighting style, weapon mastery, heavy armor, shield training or a 6th lvl dip to get the aura
pact of the blade warlock ( pure or mc ) or valor bard or even sorcadin with 1 lvl dip in paladin is better then a pure paladin
sadly the 2024 Paladin has been reduced to either a 1-2 lvl dip, for fighting style, weapon mastery, heavy armor, shield training or a 6th lvl dip to get the aura
pact of the blade warlock ( pure or mc ) or valor bard or even sorcadin with 1 lvl dip in paladin is better then a pure paladin
you can't get heavy armour from a dip, you'd get Medium armour and Shields.
As far as it goes, Paladin's damage still scales to level and most multiclass builds aren't beating that, Paladin gets Spirit Shroud (from Tasha's) at level 9, Radiant Strikes at level 11 and Holy Weapon (from XgtE) at level 17. It's hard to beat that. Personally I wish they'd had buffed Elemental Weapon to 2d4 and gaining 1d4 per level, as that'd have fixed a few issues for Paladin and Ranger in one go... more so Ranger than Paladin but it'd have made it a worthwhile spell.
As far as Paladin goes, the main issues are that it could have used two more features so that level 13 and 17 aren't just spellcasting increases (even Ranger gets things at these levels...) and that Paladin's Smite and Faithful Steed actually improved with paladin level. I would say the easy feats would have been a level 13 feature to use Charisma instead of Constitution for Concentration saving throws against damage (since paladin damage becomes more reliant on concentration spells at this point... on a class generally in melee) and 17 should have been Aura expansion and 18 should haven given a way to recover a spell slot or two.
sadly the 2024 Paladin has been reduced to either a 1-2 lvl dip, for fighting style, weapon mastery, heavy armor, shield training or a 6th lvl dip to get the aura
pact of the blade warlock ( pure or mc ) or valor bard or even sorcadin with 1 lvl dip in paladin is better then a pure paladin
Mathematically, that's not accurate. Pure paladin beats out pala 1/warlock 19 in pure single target.
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i completly disagree with you :) a 1 lvl dip musn't be taken at 2nd lvl or higher it could also be taken at 1st lvl to get heavy armor :) but imho there's is absolute 0 resaon to take paladin beyond 6th lvl ( if you really want the aura ) or if you don't care for the aura there's no reason to take paladin beyond 2nd lvl ( for the fighting style )
Holy Weapon & Spirit Shroud don't stack since they both req. Concentration you can also get Spirit Shroud with a divine soul ( which is pretty much the best subclass with 2024 ) if you take spirit shroud with the sorcerer you can even get the d8's higher then any Paladin could
Paladin's don't need a level 13 feature to use charisma for conc saves, they already have that with their aura and the faithful steed is just useless .... how many times are you gonna have that available in an adventure, you will be lucky if its more then 10% of the time
the numbers get even further apart the higher you get in level and you add magical items
Paladin's damage doesn't scale with more Paladin levels, he is same as Ranger bottom of the pack, if a lvl 20 paladin is lucky he might be able to get to 40-50% of the damage of a blade-lock and maybe 20% of a valor Bard
add in that a paladin smite can easy be nullified by a 2nd lvl spell ( silence ) and he has nothing to get rid of that, a sorcerer has and in this math i haven't even figured in a valor bard with 1 lvl of warlock it just makes paladin wanting to cry then
i know i repeat myself, but taking paladin with the 2024 ruleset beyond 1/2nd lvl is a waste
Mathematically, that's not accurate. Pure paladin beats out pala 1/warlock 19 in pure single target.
If you're going by Treantmonk's methodology of not including any content prior to 2024 in his builds, kinda. The damage for the most part lines up in his math with his Paladin damage build, with Paladin out performing the Warlock.
If you're allowing the Warlock access to something like Shadow Blade, Spirit Shroud or Shadow of Moil, the Warlock being able to attack 3 times puts the nail in that coffin by virtue of just having spells that compliment their 3 attacks (which, the 2024 PHB does not provide the Warlock natively).
Treantmonk pretty much points out the Achilles heel of a Bladelock is their spell-list in 2024 PHB not allowing them to go ham as a martial in the first Warlock video he posted, because prior to that, his sentiment was that the Warlock was competing with Wizard and Sorceror for being the most powerful class in the game.
i completly disagree with you :) a 1 lvl dip musn't be taken at 2nd lvl or higher it could also be taken at 1st lvl to get heavy armor :) but imho there's is absolute 0 resaon to take paladin beyond 6th lvl ( if you really want the aura ) or if you don't care for the aura there's no reason to take paladin beyond 2nd lvl ( for the fighting style )
Holy Weapon & Spirit Shroud don't stack since they both req. Concentration you can also get Spirit Shroud with a divine soul ( which is pretty much the best subclass with 2024 ) if you take spirit shroud with the sorcerer you can even get the d8's higher then any Paladin could
Paladin's don't need a level 13 feature to use charisma for conc saves, they already have that with their aura and the faithful steed is just useless .... how many times are you gonna have that available in an adventure, you will be lucky if its more then 10% of the time
the numbers get even further apart the higher you get in level and you add magical items
Paladin's damage doesn't scale with more Paladin levels, he is same as Ranger bottom of the pack, if a lvl 20 paladin is lucky he might be able to get to 40-50% of the damage of a blade-lock and maybe 20% of a valor Bard
add in that a paladin smite can easy be nullified by a 2nd lvl spell ( silence ) and he has nothing to get rid of that, a sorcerer has and in this math i haven't even figured in a valor bard with 1 lvl of warlock it just makes paladin wanting to cry then
i know i repeat myself, but taking paladin with the 2024 ruleset beyond 1/2nd lvl is a waste
I am well aware but if you're a paladin 2/sorcerer 9 you'd sacrifice constitution saving throw proficiency for wisdom... which is not great for sorcerer.
I am well aware that Spirit Shroud and Holy Weapon don't stack, but that doesn't mean it's not an option. But you seem to have forgotten that Sorcerer doesn't even have access to this spell, Cleric, Paladin, Warlock and Wizard have access too it, not Sorcerer.
I also wouldn't use Spirt Shroud/Holy weapon with Divine Favor, it can be done but kinda of meh. If you're gunna drop to Divine Favor is better to use an elemental weapon and cast divine favor in battle, Since elemental weapon could potentially last two battles in most campaigns and would be 2d4 vs 1d8.
Additionally Vengeance Paladin gets Vow of Enmity, which is straight advantage. So they'd have 9.75% chance to critical in most cases and with advantage are probably hitting in the 84+% of the time.
It is for these reasons that Sorcerer is by far the worst choice of multiclass out of the charisma classes. Bard gets Conjure minor elementals, and also gets access to the wizard spell list at level 10, Warlock gets access to spirit shroud, eldritch smite and a few other things (pact of the blade, lifedrinker, devouring blade, etc). However Paladin's best features for a Warlock would be either Vow of Enmity or Sacred Weapon which are both subclass, level 3 features, similarly for bard. Meaning those classes would get spirit shroud around level 8, only 1 level for paladin, they do get more upcast on them to be fair but then Radiant Strikes already does the same damage as 1 upcast of spirit shroud.
Finally it's hard (not impossible) to build a strength based Bard or Warlock but the best feat for Paladin DPR is Great Weapon Master which adds more than a fair bit of damage. A strength based sorcerer isn't going to work well either.
Overall I'd say Warlock/Paladin is the best, followed by Bard/Paladin and Sorcerer/Paladin is by far the worst. It can still be viable but it's not doing as well as the others. For Warlock Pact of the Blade, Eldritch Smite, Lifedrinker and Devouring Blade just leave it so far in front. While for Bard, going college of valor means switching 1 attack for a cantrip, like booming blade or green-flame blade.
However these are not massively out damaging a Strength based paladin and struggle to perform as well defensively, unless they go 6 levels into Paladin... that is more than a mere dip by that point. Paladin's later tier features are lack luster but better than Ranger, since Paladin still gets Radiant Strikes and has better spells for buffing their damage than Ranger gets.
Mathematically, that's not accurate. Pure paladin beats out pala 1/warlock 19 in pure single target.
If you're going by Treantmonk's methodology of not including any content prior to 2024 in his builds, kinda. The damage for the most part lines up in his math with his Paladin damage build, with Paladin out performing the Warlock.
If you're allowing the Warlock access to something like Shadow Blade, Spirit Shroud or Shadow of Moil, the Warlock being able to attack 3 times puts the nail in that coffin by virtue of just having spells that compliment their 3 attacks (which, the 2024 PHB does not provide the Warlock natively).
Treantmonk pretty much points out the Achilles heel of a Bladelock is their spell-list in 2024 PHB not allowing them to go ham as a martial in the first Warlock video he posted, because prior to that, his sentiment was that the Warlock was competing with Wizard and Sorceror for being the most powerful class in the game.
I think you almost have to. They printed the content they printed. It's not quite fair to allow it to use obsolete content that wasn't designed for the class as it currently exists, just to keep up with other classes that are not using obsolete content.
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i know that the sorcerer's in the new 2024 phb don't have acess to spirit shroud thats why i wrote divine soul ( which has access to it ) i agree with you that paladin/bard is putting out more dpR then paladin/sorcerer but i completly disagree with you on that they are close together
if i really wanted to play for high dpR i would go : Valor Bard 17 / Sorcerer 2 / Warlock 1
any Paladin build won't even come close to what that can put out sustained ..... 3x 1d6 + 5 ( only 2x since dw doesnt get asi ) + 12d8 & 4x 1d10 + 12d8 with 60% = 240-250 dpR ( sustained ) 2x 1d6 + 5 + 12d8 & 4x 1d10 + 12d8 & 9x 2d6 + 12d8 ( quickened scorching ray ) = ~600 dpR
if you really want to go all out, you could also say, the bard puts down a simulacrum before he adventures out then he will easy break the 1000 dpR Nova or 400+ sustained
while a lvl 20 vengeance Paladin can dish out 80dpR if he uses most of his spell slots for smite ..... ( not my calc thats from TM's video, i haven't done the math on that yet :) )
thats not even in the same neighborhood of the Valor Bard + the Bard doesn't even really need a setup for cme since with extend it lasts 20 minutes ). Paladin / Warlock doesn't need anything from Paladin beyond 3rd lvl ( 3rd only if you want to go vengeance ), but it won't be better then the sorcerer 19 / paladin 1after 18th lvl.
it all boils down to the same since the phb release ( and that's my opionen what needs to be fixed asap ) is that Paladin Smite needs the bonus action cost removed. Leave it at once / round but not needing a bonus action would close the gap a bit, and also fix CME.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
i know that the sorcerer's in the new 2024 phb don't have acess to spirit shroud thats why i wrote divine soul ( which has access to it ) i agree with you that paladin/bard is putting out more dpR then paladin/sorcerer but i completly disagree with you on that they are close together
if i really wanted to play for high dpR i would go : Valor Bard 17 / Sorcerer 2 / Warlock 1
any Paladin build won't even come close to what that can put out sustained ..... 3x 1d6 + 5 ( only 2x since dw doesnt get asi ) + 12d8 & 4x 1d10 + 12d8 with 60% = 240-250 dpR ( sustained ) 2x 1d6 + 5 + 12d8 & 4x 1d10 + 12d8 & 9x 2d6 + 12d8 ( quickened scorching ray ) = ~600 dpR
if you really want to go all out, you could also say, the bard puts down a simulacrum before he adventures out then he will easy break the 1000 dpR Nova or 400+ sustained
while a lvl 20 vengeance Paladin can dish out 80dpR if he uses most of his spell slots for smite ..... ( not my calc thats from TM's video, i haven't done the math on that yet :) )
thats not even in the same neighborhood of the Valor Bard + the Bard doesn't even really need a setup for cme since with extend it lasts 20 minutes ). Paladin / Warlock doesn't need anything from Paladin beyond 3rd lvl ( 3rd only if you want to go vengeance ), but it won't be better then the sorcerer 19 / paladin 1after 18th lvl.
it all boils down to the same since the phb release ( and that's my opionen what needs to be fixed asap ) is that Paladin Smite needs the bonus action cost removed. Leave it at once / round but not needing a bonus action would close the gap a bit, and also fix CME.
I missed the Divine Soul sorcerer, that would get it but would be massively behind the valor bard, Conjure Minor Elementals does such insane damage as you said it gets up to 12d8 per hit. Which is why everybody believes it'll get Errata'd in the future. One thing about Conjure Minor elementals is it costs an action, so unless you quicken that, you're losing around, so you'd never use quickened scorching ray unless you cast it in advance of battle, so it's a bit situational on that set-up.
Such a build can output high damage but it's highly specialized, A paladin, pure paladin can still output 3x(1d10)+4*(5*1d8+2d8)+1d4+2*6=~105, with reaction add on another 2*(1d10+1d8+2d8+5) for another ~48. That is ~153 sustained without accounting for accuracy, which Paladin obviously wins with either Vengeance or Devotion paladin, both have insane accuracy on attack rolls when using channel divinity.
Assuming a 60% base chance to hit, Advantage from Vow of Enmity would leave it at 98.6775 DPR or 139.89 DPR with the reaction. Which outside of the broken Conjure Minor Elementals spell builds, is highly respectful damage. Which is why that spell is almost certainly getting nerfed in future.
For the Devotion Paladin (assuming +5 strength and +5 charisma), it'd be 96.3 DPR or 136.3 DPR with reaction. This is using a Halbard and hitting an extra target.
Sure these numbers are highly optimized assuming there is always two targets to hit and that the reaction always goes off. One on One, you'd use a Glaive instead and the numbers would drop, it'd still be respectable damage, a bit behind Fighter and Barbarian but not that far behind given Paladin is far more defensive than either Fighter or Barbarian.
And for as much as you're trying to optimize, the 12d8 is for one encounter, then the next is 10d8, then 8d8 and a 4th encounter would drop to 6d8. So those numbers are sustainable for one encounter only. Paladin can only sustain the 2d8 for two encounters, but can sustain 1d8 beneath that for another 6 encounters... but that assumes not using an 8th level spell slot for scorching ray. You'd have to drop down to 5th level. If you're trying to sustain as much DPR as possible and even that is a little risky if there is more encounters.
Overall this build is very much glass canon on top, since to get this 60% chance to hit, you'd need need to start with 17 in Charisma and 15 in Dexterity or vice versa, you need to get 20 in both and only get 4 feats, this leaves the build lacking constitution and HP in general, you need to be within 15 foot of the hostile creatures which leaves it quiet vulnerable to attack and losing concentration, you can't pick up either warcaster or resilient constitution making that quite a significant flaw in the build. The pure paladin can pick up both Warcaster and Resilient constitution while still getting 3 half feats that increase strength giving 20 Strength, 16 Charisma and 14 constitution, for a Constitution saving throw of +11 versus the +1 of this bard build and having significantly more HP.
Taking 1 HP worth of damage means losing Conjure Minor Elementals while the Paladin doesn't even need to get a Nat 1 to make that save... now with 1 level of Warlock you could pick up eldritch mind, to get advantage but you're still at a much higher chance to lose concentration in combat. You could also pick-up pact of the blade, but that'd only work on one weapon, not two, so that is another attack that is suffering if you don't have the 20 Dex and Cha scores.
Overall this build is high damage but it's low survivability, theoretical damage is nice but builds need to do more than just damage, you aren't helping if you go down in the first round of combat and can't sustain the one spell you have that does all the damage. A pure Paladin will naturally just survive so much longer, it's not worth comparison on and the damage drop off per encounter is a bigger issue for the bard build then the paladin. This is before remembering there is no spell sniper in this, so if a hostile creature gets within 5 foot... there is a big issue there too...
Also noticed that this is not build legal either. It's is reliant on making 3 weapons attacks AND casting Eldritch Blast, but you have to substitute one of the main hand weapons to cast Eldritch Blast, so that is dropping DPR there to make that build legal. While this build still does a lot of damage, it's not a recommendable build, it's a niche power gamer build that'll mostly only under-perform in actual encounters due to how fragile it is.
Mathematically, that's not accurate. Pure paladin beats out pala 1/warlock 19 in pure single target.
If you're going by Treantmonk's methodology of not including any content prior to 2024 in his builds, kinda. The damage for the most part lines up in his math with his Paladin damage build, with Paladin out performing the Warlock.
If you're allowing the Warlock access to something like Shadow Blade, Spirit Shroud or Shadow of Moil, the Warlock being able to attack 3 times puts the nail in that coffin by virtue of just having spells that compliment their 3 attacks (which, the 2024 PHB does not provide the Warlock natively).
Treantmonk pretty much points out the Achilles heel of a Bladelock is their spell-list in 2024 PHB not allowing them to go ham as a martial in the first Warlock video he posted, because prior to that, his sentiment was that the Warlock was competing with Wizard and Sorceror for being the most powerful class in the game.
I think you almost have to. They printed the content they printed. It's not quite fair to allow it to use obsolete content that wasn't designed for the class as it currently exists, just to keep up with other classes that are not using obsolete content.
The issue with this argument is the 2024 PHB has spells that operate exactly like Spirit Shroud and Shadow of Moil (or MUCH stronger) - just not on Paladin or Warlock, and that strikes me as somewhat suspicious.
Tin-foil hat:
It seems the design team had absolutely no faith in the Paladin's Smite actually competing with Divine Favor or Spirit Shroud, while at the same time, knew the Warlock would see a significant bump to damage using spells like Spirit Shroud (as we see with the Valor Bard). So, to stop Paladin players from leaning on spells like Divine Favor past level 9, they made sure to not include ANY spells that deals extra damage on hit.
Otherwise, there's no point not including that spell, because, it scales off spell level and the number of attacks, and was the only spell Warlocks and Paladins could use that operated in that fashion at 9th class level.
Yes / No. Paladin has a very messy action economy and its main source of dealing damage doesn't care that you're a Paladin. If you can multiclass as a Paladin, there's a point where you're better off taking as many non-paladin levels (Bard, Sorc) fullcaster, as possible, because both the utility and damage your get from higher level spellcasting is a lot stronger than Radiant Strikes or Abjure Foes (Tasha's Mind Whip+).
Even Find Steed scales entirely off spell level, lol.
And that's just an issue with designing a class whose main damage dealing comes in the form of spell slot level and not their class. Like, Banishing Smite and Staggering Smite are supposed to be the carrot on the stick, and they fail at it (in Banishing Smite's case, the bulk of the time it does nothing but outdamage Divine Smite, at level 17, Banishing Smite is competing with 9th spell level casting, and its so... so... so bad)).
If the subclasses actually had impactful features (Oath of Glory gets one good feature, at level 20, but otherwise is awful) you'd look forward to that at later levels, but tier 3 Paladin features are effectively in the Ranger's D10 capstone territory of incoherent).
So while the class can perform by blowing its 3rd level + spell slots every chance they can, they play very clunky by comparison to 2014 Paladin, and its odd. Like, a feature at 9th to 11th level that changes how they cast their Bonus action spells (say applying smites as a part of the attack, making their Smite spells operate like True Strike on Valor Bard or Eldritch Knight) would have made 99% of *complaints* how the Paladin deals damage cease to exist, but... it never happened.
Mathematically, that's not accurate. Pure paladin beats out pala 1/warlock 19 in pure single target.
If you're going by Treantmonk's methodology of not including any content prior to 2024 in his builds, kinda. The damage for the most part lines up in his math with his Paladin damage build, with Paladin out performing the Warlock.
If you're allowing the Warlock access to something like Shadow Blade, Spirit Shroud or Shadow of Moil, the Warlock being able to attack 3 times puts the nail in that coffin by virtue of just having spells that compliment their 3 attacks (which, the 2024 PHB does not provide the Warlock natively).
Treantmonk pretty much points out the Achilles heel of a Bladelock is their spell-list in 2024 PHB not allowing them to go ham as a martial in the first Warlock video he posted, because prior to that, his sentiment was that the Warlock was competing with Wizard and Sorceror for being the most powerful class in the game.
I think you almost have to. They printed the content they printed. It's not quite fair to allow it to use obsolete content that wasn't designed for the class as it currently exists, just to keep up with other classes that are not using obsolete content.
The issue with this argument is the 2024 PHB has spells that operate exactly like Spirit Shroud and Shadow of Moil (or MUCH stronger) - just not on Paladin or Warlock, and that strikes me as somewhat suspicious.
Tin-foil hat:
It seems the design team had absolutely no faith in the Paladin's Smite actually competing with Divine Favor or Spirit Shroud, while at the same time, knew the Warlock would see a significant bump to damage using spells like Spirit Shroud (as we see with the Valor Bard). So, to stop Paladin players from leaning on spells like Divine Favor past level 9, they made sure to not include ANY spells that deals extra damage on hit.
Otherwise, there's no point not including that spell, because, it scales off spell level and the number of attacks, and was the only spell Warlocks and Paladins could use that operated in that fashion at 9th class level.
Yes / No. Paladin has a very messy action economy and its main source of dealing damage doesn't care that you're a Paladin. If you can multiclass as a Paladin, there's a point where you're better off taking as many non-paladin levels (Bard, Sorc) fullcaster, as possible, because both the utility and damage your get from higher level spellcasting is a lot stronger than Radiant Strikes or Abjure Foes (Tasha's Mind Whip+).
Even Find Steed scales entirely off spell level, lol.
And that's just an issue with designing a class whose main damage dealing comes in the form of spell slot level and not their class. Like, Banishing Smite and Staggering Smite are supposed to be the carrot on the stick, and they fail at it (in Banishing Smite's case, the bulk of the time it does nothing but outdamage Divine Smite, at level 17, Banishing Smite is competing with 9th spell level casting, and its so... so... so bad)).
If the subclasses actually had impactful features (Oath of Glory gets one good feature, at level 20, but otherwise is awful) you'd look forward to that at later levels, but tier 3 Paladin features are effectively in the Ranger's D10 capstone territory of incoherent).
So while the class can perform by blowing its 3rd level + spell slots every chance they can, they play very clunky by comparison to 2014 Paladin, and its odd. Like, a feature at 9th to 11th level that changes how they cast their Bonus action spells (say applying smites as a part of the attack, making their Smite spells operate like True Strike on Valor Bard or Eldritch Knight) would have made 99% of *complaints* how the Paladin deals damage cease to exist, but... it never happened.
Edit: Added *complaints* to the sentence.
The reason the spells aren't in the PHB is that they are non-PHB spells to begin with, so they aren't replaced out but you need to own the books those spells come from, spirit shroud for example is from Tasha's.
Paladin as a pure class is okay with these supplemental spells but pure PHB 2024 or Free Rules 2024, then Paladin is in a huge issue. The lack of things scaling to Paladin level is also a huge issue. Personally I do believe Paladin should be viable without having to rely on supplemental materials. Elemental Weapon is about the closest Paladin has but it's lacking compared to spirit shroud or holy weapon as Elemental Weapon is 1d4 and requires a non-magical weapon, at a point you probably want to be using a +1, and redundant by the point you have a +2 weapon... let alone a +3 weapon.
But I think we should remain clear that with the supplemental spells, Paladin is fine, it's damage is only very slightly behind Fighter and Barbarian, and well ahead of Ranger. In regards, to multiclassing, later levels of Paladin are a little lacking, that is for sure. Past level 11, Paladin is lacks any good reason to really stay with the class, grab 9 levels of warlock and you'll be much stronger, or 9 levels of Bard for the cantrip attacks, alternatively 9 levels of Fighter also give a few good bonuses. Or finally 9 levels of sorcerer.
Past level 11, Paladin needs some better features. I could say numerous suggestions, personally I still think smites being fuelled by spell slots has always been the biggest issue and WotC went the wrong direction in keeping that design but people didn't like the idea of instead making smites being a feature moved away from spell slots. Instead we got some god awful design of smites as spells which are just messy with the action economy. I really felt even in UA that Paladin needed more work and an attempt to just move smites away from spell slots but it never came.
Smites fundamentally are the feature that should scale most to Paladin Level and that just doesn't work when spell slots are more easily acquired by multiclassing than sticking with Paladin. Unfortunately 2024 is already out and any hope of fixing Paladin now is gone, Vow of Enmity and Sacred Weapon are clear signs that WotC know they messed up with Paladin, since they had to entirely remove them from being part of the action economy, instead of using Bonus Action. Personally I don't mind them not using action economy but it leaves Glory and Ancient paladins obviously behind by not having something similar, but does free up the first bonus action for a spell to augment damage like divine favor/spirit shroud/holy weapon.
Fundamentally, a non-broken form of Paladin can only exist with a Paladin that does not fuel Smites with spell slots and that requires an entire class re-design. But I'll still state that Paladin is nowhere near as broken as Ranger right now. Paladin is still viable, just in a weird place.
Also noticed that this is not build legal either. It's is reliant on making 3 weapons attacks AND casting Eldritch Blast, but you have to substitute one of the main hand weapons to cast Eldritch Blast, so that is dropping DPR there to make that build legal. While this build still does a lot of damage, it's not a recommendable build, it's a niche power gamer build that'll mostly only under-perform in actual encounters due to how fragile it is.
you can make 3 weapon attacks and eldritch blast with valor bard: 1d6 ( attack with scimitar ) extra attack -> Eldricht Blast ), nick attack ( scimitar can be done as part of your attack action ), DW feat ( attack with your offhand weapon as a bonus action ) = 3 weapon attacks + eldritch blast and legal :) as for fragile with point buy you can have 8/15/14/8/10/15 as starting stats, +2/+1 to chr / dex, you start with sorcerer = con save prof you take warcaster ( takes care of the conc issue ). you extend the cme and it will last 20 mins ( at least 2-3 encounters ) as for AC paladin & valor bard are just 1 AC apart ( medium vs hvy armor )
if push comes to shove, you can also easy outperform the paladin because of your full caster spells & spell slots and even still use 1 attack if you cast a spell.
and i don't see how you come to this math: pure paladin can still output 3x(1d10)+4*(5*1d8+2d8)+1d4+2*6=~105,
even with a polearm you can't add in your reaction attack to the base dmg, and i don't see how you will attack 3x per round if you don't use a haste on you :) add to it how you are going 4*( 5d8 + 2d8 ) ? i would say its more : 2x 1d10+ 6+ 5 + 1d8 & 1d4 + 1d8 + 5 + 6 ( up to the DM if you can add GWM to the offhand attack of the Polearm ) = 60 / 81 ( with haste ) you can add another 6/8 with vow for criticals with 60% hit = 40 ( 45 with vow ) / 48 ( 60 with vow )
like i said at the start there's is abosulte 0 reason to take paladin beyond 6th lvl if you want the aura, if you don't care for the aura, its 1st / 2nd level
you can make 3 weapon attacks and eldritch blast with valor bard: 1d6 ( attack with scimitar ) extra attack -> Eldricht Blast ), nick attack ( scimitar can be done as part of your attack action ), DW feat ( attack with your offhand weapon as a bonus action ) = 3 weapon attacks + eldritch blast and legal :)
Warlock, Bard and Sorcerer don't get Weapon Mastery, so how are you benefiting from Nick? You'd have to take a feat for that which again is hitting the ASI, as is Dual Wielder. As I already pointed out, your maths is assuming a +5 to DEX and +5 to CHA, you can't with these levels achieve that and grab the feat.
as for fragile with point buy you can have 8/15/14/8/10/15 as starting stats, +2/+1 to chr / dex, you start with sorcerer = con save prof you take warcaster ( takes care of the conc issue ). you extend the cme and it will last 20 mins ( at least 2-3 encounters ) as for AC paladin & valor bard are just 1 AC apart ( medium vs hvy armor )
if push comes to shove, you can also easy outperform the paladin because of your full caster spells & spell slots and even still use 1 attack if you cast a spell.
Ok, so I assume you go Elf, because your WIS saves are so poor, you're easily charmed and else wise mind controlled, to the point where you basically slaughter your own party if they don't put you down... except even Elf's advantage against charm effects isn't really helping here, your Wisdom saving throw would be a +0, against a DC 19 save, you're making that only 19% of the time, if you're not an Elf, only 10% of the time you make the save...
Still this level of Min-Max does mean you only need 7 points of ASI. That is enough to take one feat and get the necessary +5s for your numbers, but you're using Nick from nowhere. Bard does not get weapon masteries, Warlock does not get weapon masteries and Sorcerer does not get weapon masteries, The only legal way you could do it is by taking the weapon master feat.
so are you taking Weapon Master, Dual Wielder or Warcaster? Then there is still the issue of both needing to be in 5 foot and also needing to not be in 5 foot that could only be solved by spell sniper... or taking attacks of opportunity which risks that valuable concentration. You both need 4 separate feats and also need 7 Ability points to get the +5 +5 while only getting 4 total ASI/Feat choices. There is simply no way to achieve what you're claiming here.
Now what is possible is to drop the melee weapons, pick up a Heavy Crossbow, perform 1 heavy crossbow attack (1d10) then cast eldritch blast, but this only gives you 5 total attacks, instead of 7, so that drops the actually achievable DPR quiet significantly but this removes the requirement for Spell Sniper, for Weapon Master and for Dual Wielder. You could get that +5 DEX and +5 CHA. Altho at that point, the +5 DEX makes far less sense, instead pick up Pact of the Blade and bind a magical Heavy Crossbow. Then warcaster +1ASI gives 2 free feats. Pick up Medium armor master for a nice +1 AC and pick up Boon of Fate, so you can maybe make a saving throw you'd else wise fail. Obviously Combat Prowess does better for this, but would also do better for the Paladin too, however not the choice I'd make for the optimized build.
As for this bard still being Fragile, it is. The difference in AC might only be 1.. except if the Paladin takes the Defence Fighting Style (which next to blind fighting in the best fighting style for great weapons), then it is an AC difference of 2, the Bard is taking far more damage.Now if you went with what I said above the difference would reduce back to 1AC but then that is a build that does far less damage, it is however build legal.
2nd Past that Paladin has far FAR more tools for survival than that 1AC difference, first of Aura of Protection boosts Paladin's saves, second off Paladin simply has Higher HP, you're comparing ~154.5HP (10+19*~5.5+20*2) vs. 130.5 HP (6+~3.5+18*4.5+20*2).
3rd Paladin gets Lay on Hands and can self heal at level 20, up to 100HP as a bonus action. About the only area where the bard takes less damage is Dex saves, tho if you go with the legal build I recommend, the Paladin would actually beat the bard even at Dex saves.
Now before the point comes up, of course the Bard can learn the Shield spell but then so can the Paladin via Magic Initiate. Now the bard could instead take toughness as their 1st level feat to close the gap in HP but effectively the bard would still be behind the Paladin.
4th, this still leaves a 3 point difference in con saves, that is actually still a huge difference even with both advantage. If the DC is 20 (a 40 damage AoE), the Paladin needs to only role a 9 to make the save where the bard needs to roll a 12. With advantage the Paladin makes it 84% of the time the bard makes it 70% of the time, the bard loses concentration almost twice as often as the Paladin. It is also worth noting that counterspell would have no advantage and so that is a straight up 15% more of the time the Paladin makes it.
and i don't see how you come to this math: pure paladin can still output 3x(1d10)+4*(5*1d8+2d8)+1d4+2*6=~105,
even with a polearm you can't add in your reaction attack to the base dmg, and i don't see how you will attack 3x per round if you don't use a haste on you :) add to it how you are going 4*( 5d8 + 2d8 ) ? i would say its more : 2x 1d10+ 6+ 5 + 1d8 & 1d4 + 1d8 + 5 + 6 ( up to the DM if you can add GWM to the offhand attack of the Polearm ) = 60 / 81 ( with haste ) you can add another 6/8 with vow for criticals with 60% hit = 40 ( 45 with vow ) / 48 ( 60 with vow )
like i said at the start there's is abosulte 0 reason to take paladin beyond 6th lvl if you want the aura, if you don't care for the aura, its 1st / 2nd level
Halbard has Cleave, thus as I said, this is against two opponents, not one, Cleave gives an extra attack on an attack once per turn and thus also gives an extra attack on reaction if there are two hostile creatures in range. Since you're going to theoretically optimized conditions, so am I but I can describe the build I use and keep it build legal.
The build uses PAM and a Vengeance Paladin, a reaction is as close to guaranteed as possible.
If a creature attacks you, that is a reaction
if the creature moves away from you, that is a reaction
If a creature moves within range of the polearm, that is a reaction.
With sentinel, if the creature takes the disengage action, that is a reaction.
With sentinel, if the creature attacks a friendly creature to you within range, that is a reaction
About the only way to get out of this situation is to teleport away, such as with misty step.
So yes, with a Vengeance Paladin with PAM, you can most definitely assume a reaction since that build gets so many things it can take reactions against, it is insane.
This is a good legal Paladin Build. Of course many would switch DEX and WIS but I go this way around since elf already helps with advantage for a good number of wisdom saves and it's also 1 better initiative, which helps.
Of course there is an alternative build which does a bit less damage but FAR FAR more tanky. That is to switch the Halberd for a Quarterstaff and then take up a shield, instead of Defense, take Duelling, it does about 5 less DPR, but is far more tanky, more so when magical shields come up. Also no longer need GWM. So can play around more with ASIs. You also lose cleave, but you change it for topple, which can help slow down creatures and hold them back from party. It's still basically 4 attacks a round, 2 less then the theoretical 6 attacks that halbard can get, tho 3 attacks on the first round since you use the bonus action to cast a spell to buff damage.
Now for the elephant in the room, the one big issue with this Bard build. It's high damage only really works in Tier 4, partly in Tier 3 too. But mostly in Tier 4. You waste an action (or quicken spell for a Bonus Action first round) to cast Conjure Minor Elementals, which comes online at level 7, but you need quicken spell else are basically missing the first round of combat and at 2d8, it's too much investment to be anything but a bonus action. So you need Sorcerer levels, 2 of them. You have to sacrifice spell slots to recharge the metamagics too. Then you also need 1 level of Warlock for Eldritch Blast else you're struggling with just two attacks.
You can attempt to cast Conjure Minor Elementals before combat but it's got a verbal component and at 10 minutes, DMs can easily rule that if you aren't casting it nearby, it isn't lasting until the combat but being verbal it can be heard. Additionally the spell says spirits flit around you which a DM can additionally say gives up any possibility of stealth too.
So the earliest you can use it at level 10 and at that point it's still behind Paladin on DPR. Sure you get it up to 4d8 now but Paladin has that Channel Divinity advantage, great weapon master and basically makes the same number of attacks, you can get 1 more attack with Eldritch Blast but it's still at 2 rays. Level 11 Paladin gets Radiant Strikes which is basically adding the same damage as that 3rd ray is. Level 12, the Paladin gets another feat but you don't, you do get that 6d8 conjure minor elementals, but it's a once per day trick. Level 13 Paladin gets their 4th level slots, Paladin can actually use divine smite on critical hits for 10d8, it's a pretty good use of a 4th level slot and vengeance paladins tend to get a good amount of critical hits. Level 14 you can now do a 8d8 conjure elemental on top of that 6d8. At level 14, arguable the Bard build could potentially be doing more damage, if it's a low magic campaign and neither the bard or paladin have magic weapons. By level 16 Bard is finally starting to actually pip out the paladin... 17 when the 4th ray comes in for eldritch smite it is a huge jump and conclusively the Bard is doing more damage.
When most campaigns generally do not go past level 12, what is the point in a build that only starts to peak at Tier 4? Additionally one has to consider how subpar this particular build would be in Tier 2, even at the start of Tier 3. As you have to make build choices which are... odd and only make sense when you're about half way into tier 3.
Yes / No. Paladin has a very messy action economy and its main source of dealing damage doesn't care that you're a Paladin. If you can multiclass as a Paladin, there's a point where you're better off taking as many non-paladin levels (Bard, Sorc) fullcaster, as possible, because both the utility and damage your get from higher level spellcasting is a lot stronger than Radiant Strikes or Abjure Foes (Tasha's Mind Whip+).
Even Find Steed scales entirely off spell level, lol.
Just because you CAN get more from mixing and matching, doesn't make the class broken. A pure class paladin, is solidly in the middle when it comes to throughput when compared to other pure class characters. That makes it just fine. Not liking the design is fair. Saying the performace is inadequate is not fair. And it's certainly not as bad as some others in this thread will have you believe.
That makes paladin...fine.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Yes / No. Paladin has a very messy action economy and its main source of dealing damage doesn't care that you're a Paladin. If you can multiclass as a Paladin, there's a point where you're better off taking as many non-paladin levels (Bard, Sorc) fullcaster, as possible, because both the utility and damage your get from higher level spellcasting is a lot stronger than Radiant Strikes or Abjure Foes (Tasha's Mind Whip+).
Even Find Steed scales entirely off spell level, lol.
Just because you CAN get more from mixing and matching, doesn't make the class broken.
All of the Paladins features or spells don't care if you're a Paladin, either scaling off Charisma or Spell Slot Level. Its not that Paladins "get-more" from multiclassing, the class' structural issues make playing pure Paladin the worst way to play Paladin, even if they're both just hitting & smiting.
One element of 5e24's marketing was to "protect" class identity; Wizards can use Wish to cast Find Steed at 9th spell level; Paladins, at best, can spend a year of in-game crafting to create an enspelled item to cast Find Steed at 8th level (lol), or multiclass to compete at what's supposed to be "their" thing. There's clearly a design flaw by making the bulk of a Paladin's class identity revolve around spellcasting from the ground up, and it shows up at every tier of play.
A pure class paladin, is solidly in the middle when it comes to throughout when compared to other pure class characters. That makes it just fine.
Treantmonk's videos revolve around single target damage; not utility, control or aoe damage. Your Paladin at the table to even maintain damage is going to be using an action to attack the enemy (Attack action), cast <insert> smite (the Bonus action), and burn a limited resource each turn (their entire turn, and only on their turn), to deal adequate single target damage; being "in the middle" is crippling when the base class' core design is so restrictive in how you build or play it.
To put it this way: 2014 Paladin could use Thunderous Smite on a reaction attack; the 2024 Paladin can't.
The smite spells are both better and worse now, while at the same time, being significantly more restrictive than every other on-hit effect in the game for "in the middle" results.
Not liking the design is fair. Saying the performace is inadequate is not fair. And it's certainly not as bad as some others in this thread will have you believe.
That makes paladin...fine.
Its inadequate because of its design; its action economy is limited in ways that the other classes just aren't, making a difference between being a "good" or "bad" subclass for it revolve around whether or not the feature is a free action (see: Devotion/Vengeance) or not (Glory/Ancients); while being a half-caster immediately puts pressure on how the class specific spells are designed around the existence of fullcaster class options / spellcasting and (non-optional) multiclass.
Find Steed shouldn't be a Wish target; Banishing Smite is bad for 17th level spell. Oath of Glory should be deleted; Paladins should have features at the end of T2 into T3 that interact with their spellcasting to improve it (if they're going to be half-casters, THEY NEED features like that). Instead, the Paladin is designed entirely around Aura of Protection and is stuffed with bad to mediocre player options from level 6 on.
So I'd say its bad, not good, by virtue of design. Being playable shouldn't be the only benchmark for any class in D&D, fun and rewarding should be.
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With the 2024 change making Divine Smite use a bonus action, I think the combo of Quickened Booming Blade + smites will no longer work. Or hastening any other spell as a bonus action.
So, is it still a good idea to multiclass into sorcerer?
If you still want to be a paladin with fireball, big slots for smiting, and the shield spell with lots of low level slots to pull it off.
Then yes. Sorcerer is still a good multiclass. THere are parts of it that are significantly weaker, but that doesn't mean its not good. You may find that Warlock is more valuable and has better synergy, but you will have more total slots with Sorcerer.
you're not going to smite every round, so you'll still get rounds to use Quickened Spell on which is still an extra attack, which paired with booming blade will make it quiet the powerful usage. Sorcerer also gives more spell slot progression, which gives stronger smites.
Warlock overall will be better due to pact of the blade making Paladin SAD, then at level 3, Fiend Vigor is just insane and Agonizing Blast on Eldritch Blast removes paladin's weakness of range too. Depending on how heavily the investment into Sorcerer is, there is a point (6 levels) where Bard becomes better than Sorcerer (due to College of Valor getting Bladesinger's extra attack), but that is a very heavy investment into a multiclass and probably at a level that most campaigns would never get too.
Given none of the Paladin spells or Paladin subclass / baseclass features care about being a Paladin (outside of OoG Inspiring Smite) every Charisma based fullcaster level is effectively rocket-fuel for your features / spells.
You're always going to be a stronger 2024 Paladin the faster you drop Paladin levels for Bard / Sorceror levels.
sadly the 2024 Paladin has been reduced to either a 1-2 lvl dip, for fighting style, weapon mastery, heavy armor, shield training
or a 6th lvl dip to get the aura
pact of the blade warlock ( pure or mc ) or valor bard or even sorcadin with 1 lvl dip in paladin is better then a pure paladin
you can't get heavy armour from a dip, you'd get Medium armour and Shields.
As far as it goes, Paladin's damage still scales to level and most multiclass builds aren't beating that, Paladin gets Spirit Shroud (from Tasha's) at level 9, Radiant Strikes at level 11 and Holy Weapon (from XgtE) at level 17. It's hard to beat that. Personally I wish they'd had buffed Elemental Weapon to 2d4 and gaining 1d4 per level, as that'd have fixed a few issues for Paladin and Ranger in one go... more so Ranger than Paladin but it'd have made it a worthwhile spell.
As far as Paladin goes, the main issues are that it could have used two more features so that level 13 and 17 aren't just spellcasting increases (even Ranger gets things at these levels...) and that Paladin's Smite and Faithful Steed actually improved with paladin level. I would say the easy feats would have been a level 13 feature to use Charisma instead of Constitution for Concentration saving throws against damage (since paladin damage becomes more reliant on concentration spells at this point... on a class generally in melee) and 17 should have been Aura expansion and 18 should haven given a way to recover a spell slot or two.
Mathematically, that's not accurate. Pure paladin beats out pala 1/warlock 19 in pure single target.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
i completly disagree with you :)
a 1 lvl dip musn't be taken at 2nd lvl or higher it could also be taken at 1st lvl to get heavy armor :)
but imho there's is absolute 0 resaon to take paladin beyond 6th lvl ( if you really want the aura ) or if you don't care for the aura there's no reason to take paladin beyond 2nd lvl ( for the fighting style )
Holy Weapon & Spirit Shroud don't stack since they both req. Concentration
you can also get Spirit Shroud with a divine soul ( which is pretty much the best subclass with 2024 )
if you take spirit shroud with the sorcerer you can even get the d8's higher then any Paladin could
Paladin's don't need a level 13 feature to use charisma for conc saves, they already have that with their aura
and the faithful steed is just useless .... how many times are you gonna have that available in an adventure, you will be lucky if its more then 10% of the time
11th Paladin ( greatsword ) :
2x 2d6 + 1d8 ( radiant strike ) + 5 +4 ( Prof Bonus ) + 1d8 ( spirit shroud ) + 1d4 ( divine favor ) , +5% for crits with 60%/75% for Vengeance roughly hit chance
~36/ 45 dpR
2nd Paladin / 9th sorcerer :
2x 1d6 + 5 + 2d8 ( spirit shroud ) + 1d4 ( divine favor ) + 1d8 ( bestor curse )
1x 1d6 + 2d8 ( spirit shroud ) + 1d4 ( divine favor ) + 1d8 ( bestor curse )
or 1x 1d6 + 2d8 ( spirit shroud ) + 1d4 ( divine favor ) + 1d8 ( bestow curse ) + 2d6 ( true strike quicken )
~40 / 45 dpR
the numbers get even further apart the higher you get in level and you add magical items
Paladin's damage doesn't scale with more Paladin levels, he is same as Ranger bottom of the pack, if a lvl 20 paladin is lucky he might be able to get to 40-50% of the damage of a blade-lock and maybe 20% of a valor Bard
add in that a paladin smite can easy be nullified by a 2nd lvl spell ( silence ) and he has nothing to get rid of that, a sorcerer has
and in this math i haven't even figured in a valor bard with 1 lvl of warlock it just makes paladin wanting to cry then
i know i repeat myself, but taking paladin with the 2024 ruleset beyond 1/2nd lvl is a waste
If you're going by Treantmonk's methodology of not including any content prior to 2024 in his builds, kinda. The damage for the most part lines up in his math with his Paladin damage build, with Paladin out performing the Warlock.
If you're allowing the Warlock access to something like Shadow Blade, Spirit Shroud or Shadow of Moil, the Warlock being able to attack 3 times puts the nail in that coffin by virtue of just having spells that compliment their 3 attacks (which, the 2024 PHB does not provide the Warlock natively).
Treantmonk pretty much points out the Achilles heel of a Bladelock is their spell-list in 2024 PHB not allowing them to go ham as a martial in the first Warlock video he posted, because prior to that, his sentiment was that the Warlock was competing with Wizard and Sorceror for being the most powerful class in the game.
I am well aware but if you're a paladin 2/sorcerer 9 you'd sacrifice constitution saving throw proficiency for wisdom... which is not great for sorcerer.
I am well aware that Spirit Shroud and Holy Weapon don't stack, but that doesn't mean it's not an option. But you seem to have forgotten that Sorcerer doesn't even have access to this spell, Cleric, Paladin, Warlock and Wizard have access too it, not Sorcerer.
I also wouldn't use Spirt Shroud/Holy weapon with Divine Favor, it can be done but kinda of meh. If you're gunna drop to Divine Favor is better to use an elemental weapon and cast divine favor in battle, Since elemental weapon could potentially last two battles in most campaigns and would be 2d4 vs 1d8.
Additionally Vengeance Paladin gets Vow of Enmity, which is straight advantage. So they'd have 9.75% chance to critical in most cases and with advantage are probably hitting in the 84+% of the time.
It is for these reasons that Sorcerer is by far the worst choice of multiclass out of the charisma classes. Bard gets Conjure minor elementals, and also gets access to the wizard spell list at level 10, Warlock gets access to spirit shroud, eldritch smite and a few other things (pact of the blade, lifedrinker, devouring blade, etc). However Paladin's best features for a Warlock would be either Vow of Enmity or Sacred Weapon which are both subclass, level 3 features, similarly for bard. Meaning those classes would get spirit shroud around level 8, only 1 level for paladin, they do get more upcast on them to be fair but then Radiant Strikes already does the same damage as 1 upcast of spirit shroud.
Finally it's hard (not impossible) to build a strength based Bard or Warlock but the best feat for Paladin DPR is Great Weapon Master which adds more than a fair bit of damage. A strength based sorcerer isn't going to work well either.
Overall I'd say Warlock/Paladin is the best, followed by Bard/Paladin and Sorcerer/Paladin is by far the worst. It can still be viable but it's not doing as well as the others. For Warlock Pact of the Blade, Eldritch Smite, Lifedrinker and Devouring Blade just leave it so far in front. While for Bard, going college of valor means switching 1 attack for a cantrip, like booming blade or green-flame blade.
However these are not massively out damaging a Strength based paladin and struggle to perform as well defensively, unless they go 6 levels into Paladin... that is more than a mere dip by that point. Paladin's later tier features are lack luster but better than Ranger, since Paladin still gets Radiant Strikes and has better spells for buffing their damage than Ranger gets.
I think you almost have to. They printed the content they printed. It's not quite fair to allow it to use obsolete content that wasn't designed for the class as it currently exists, just to keep up with other classes that are not using obsolete content.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
i know that the sorcerer's in the new 2024 phb don't have acess to spirit shroud thats why i wrote divine soul ( which has access to it )
i agree with you that paladin/bard is putting out more dpR then paladin/sorcerer
but i completly disagree with you on that they are close together
if i really wanted to play for high dpR i would go :
Valor Bard 17 / Sorcerer 2 / Warlock 1
any Paladin build won't even come close to what that can put out sustained .....
3x 1d6 + 5 ( only 2x since dw doesnt get asi ) + 12d8 & 4x 1d10 + 12d8 with 60% = 240-250 dpR ( sustained )
2x 1d6 + 5 + 12d8 & 4x 1d10 + 12d8 & 9x 2d6 + 12d8 ( quickened scorching ray ) = ~600 dpR
if you really want to go all out, you could also say, the bard puts down a simulacrum before he adventures out then he will easy break the 1000 dpR Nova or 400+ sustained
while a lvl 20 vengeance Paladin can dish out 80dpR if he uses most of his spell slots for smite ..... ( not my calc thats from TM's video, i haven't done the math on that yet :) )
thats not even in the same neighborhood of the Valor Bard + the Bard doesn't even really need a setup for cme since with extend it lasts 20 minutes ). Paladin / Warlock doesn't need anything from Paladin beyond 3rd lvl ( 3rd only if you want to go vengeance ), but it won't be better then the sorcerer 19 / paladin 1after 18th lvl.
it all boils down to the same since the phb release ( and that's my opionen what needs to be fixed asap ) is that Paladin Smite needs the bonus action cost removed. Leave it at once / round but not needing a bonus action would close the gap a bit, and also fix CME.
Paladin is fine.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I missed the Divine Soul sorcerer, that would get it but would be massively behind the valor bard, Conjure Minor Elementals does such insane damage as you said it gets up to 12d8 per hit. Which is why everybody believes it'll get Errata'd in the future. One thing about Conjure Minor elementals is it costs an action, so unless you quicken that, you're losing around, so you'd never use quickened scorching ray unless you cast it in advance of battle, so it's a bit situational on that set-up.
Such a build can output high damage but it's highly specialized, A paladin, pure paladin can still output 3x(1d10)+4*(5*1d8+2d8)+1d4+2*6=~105, with reaction add on another 2*(1d10+1d8+2d8+5) for another ~48. That is ~153 sustained without accounting for accuracy, which Paladin obviously wins with either Vengeance or Devotion paladin, both have insane accuracy on attack rolls when using channel divinity.
Assuming a 60% base chance to hit, Advantage from Vow of Enmity would leave it at 98.6775 DPR or 139.89 DPR with the reaction. Which outside of the broken Conjure Minor Elementals spell builds, is highly respectful damage. Which is why that spell is almost certainly getting nerfed in future.
For the Devotion Paladin (assuming +5 strength and +5 charisma), it'd be 96.3 DPR or 136.3 DPR with reaction. This is using a Halbard and hitting an extra target.
Sure these numbers are highly optimized assuming there is always two targets to hit and that the reaction always goes off. One on One, you'd use a Glaive instead and the numbers would drop, it'd still be respectable damage, a bit behind Fighter and Barbarian but not that far behind given Paladin is far more defensive than either Fighter or Barbarian.
And for as much as you're trying to optimize, the 12d8 is for one encounter, then the next is 10d8, then 8d8 and a 4th encounter would drop to 6d8. So those numbers are sustainable for one encounter only. Paladin can only sustain the 2d8 for two encounters, but can sustain 1d8 beneath that for another 6 encounters... but that assumes not using an 8th level spell slot for scorching ray. You'd have to drop down to 5th level. If you're trying to sustain as much DPR as possible and even that is a little risky if there is more encounters.
Overall this build is very much glass canon on top, since to get this 60% chance to hit, you'd need need to start with 17 in Charisma and 15 in Dexterity or vice versa, you need to get 20 in both and only get 4 feats, this leaves the build lacking constitution and HP in general, you need to be within 15 foot of the hostile creatures which leaves it quiet vulnerable to attack and losing concentration, you can't pick up either warcaster or resilient constitution making that quite a significant flaw in the build. The pure paladin can pick up both Warcaster and Resilient constitution while still getting 3 half feats that increase strength giving 20 Strength, 16 Charisma and 14 constitution, for a Constitution saving throw of +11 versus the +1 of this bard build and having significantly more HP.
Taking 1 HP worth of damage means losing Conjure Minor Elementals while the Paladin doesn't even need to get a Nat 1 to make that save... now with 1 level of Warlock you could pick up eldritch mind, to get advantage but you're still at a much higher chance to lose concentration in combat. You could also pick-up pact of the blade, but that'd only work on one weapon, not two, so that is another attack that is suffering if you don't have the 20 Dex and Cha scores.
Overall this build is high damage but it's low survivability, theoretical damage is nice but builds need to do more than just damage, you aren't helping if you go down in the first round of combat and can't sustain the one spell you have that does all the damage. A pure Paladin will naturally just survive so much longer, it's not worth comparison on and the damage drop off per encounter is a bigger issue for the bard build then the paladin. This is before remembering there is no spell sniper in this, so if a hostile creature gets within 5 foot... there is a big issue there too...
Also noticed that this is not build legal either. It's is reliant on making 3 weapons attacks AND casting Eldritch Blast, but you have to substitute one of the main hand weapons to cast Eldritch Blast, so that is dropping DPR there to make that build legal. While this build still does a lot of damage, it's not a recommendable build, it's a niche power gamer build that'll mostly only under-perform in actual encounters due to how fragile it is.
The issue with this argument is the 2024 PHB has spells that operate exactly like Spirit Shroud and Shadow of Moil (or MUCH stronger) - just not on Paladin or Warlock, and that strikes me as somewhat suspicious.
Tin-foil hat:
It seems the design team had absolutely no faith in the Paladin's Smite actually competing with Divine Favor or Spirit Shroud, while at the same time, knew the Warlock would see a significant bump to damage using spells like Spirit Shroud (as we see with the Valor Bard). So, to stop Paladin players from leaning on spells like Divine Favor past level 9, they made sure to not include ANY spells that deals extra damage on hit.
Otherwise, there's no point not including that spell, because, it scales off spell level and the number of attacks, and was the only spell Warlocks and Paladins could use that operated in that fashion at 9th class level.
Yes / No. Paladin has a very messy action economy and its main source of dealing damage doesn't care that you're a Paladin. If you can multiclass as a Paladin, there's a point where you're better off taking as many non-paladin levels (Bard, Sorc) fullcaster, as possible, because both the utility and damage your get from higher level spellcasting is a lot stronger than Radiant Strikes or Abjure Foes (Tasha's Mind Whip+).
Even Find Steed scales entirely off spell level, lol.
And that's just an issue with designing a class whose main damage dealing comes in the form of spell slot level and not their class. Like, Banishing Smite and Staggering Smite are supposed to be the carrot on the stick, and they fail at it (in Banishing Smite's case, the bulk of the time it does nothing but outdamage Divine Smite, at level 17, Banishing Smite is competing with 9th spell level casting, and its so... so... so bad)).
If the subclasses actually had impactful features (Oath of Glory gets one good feature, at level 20, but otherwise is awful) you'd look forward to that at later levels, but tier 3 Paladin features are effectively in the Ranger's D10 capstone territory of incoherent).
So while the class can perform by blowing its 3rd level + spell slots every chance they can, they play very clunky by comparison to 2014 Paladin, and its odd. Like, a feature at 9th to 11th level that changes how they cast their Bonus action spells (say applying smites as a part of the attack, making their Smite spells operate like True Strike on Valor Bard or Eldritch Knight) would have made 99% of *complaints* how the Paladin deals damage cease to exist, but... it never happened.
Edit: Added *complaints* to the sentence.
The reason the spells aren't in the PHB is that they are non-PHB spells to begin with, so they aren't replaced out but you need to own the books those spells come from, spirit shroud for example is from Tasha's.
Paladin as a pure class is okay with these supplemental spells but pure PHB 2024 or Free Rules 2024, then Paladin is in a huge issue. The lack of things scaling to Paladin level is also a huge issue. Personally I do believe Paladin should be viable without having to rely on supplemental materials. Elemental Weapon is about the closest Paladin has but it's lacking compared to spirit shroud or holy weapon as Elemental Weapon is 1d4 and requires a non-magical weapon, at a point you probably want to be using a +1, and redundant by the point you have a +2 weapon... let alone a +3 weapon.
But I think we should remain clear that with the supplemental spells, Paladin is fine, it's damage is only very slightly behind Fighter and Barbarian, and well ahead of Ranger. In regards, to multiclassing, later levels of Paladin are a little lacking, that is for sure. Past level 11, Paladin is lacks any good reason to really stay with the class, grab 9 levels of warlock and you'll be much stronger, or 9 levels of Bard for the cantrip attacks, alternatively 9 levels of Fighter also give a few good bonuses. Or finally 9 levels of sorcerer.
Past level 11, Paladin needs some better features. I could say numerous suggestions, personally I still think smites being fuelled by spell slots has always been the biggest issue and WotC went the wrong direction in keeping that design but people didn't like the idea of instead making smites being a feature moved away from spell slots. Instead we got some god awful design of smites as spells which are just messy with the action economy. I really felt even in UA that Paladin needed more work and an attempt to just move smites away from spell slots but it never came.
Smites fundamentally are the feature that should scale most to Paladin Level and that just doesn't work when spell slots are more easily acquired by multiclassing than sticking with Paladin. Unfortunately 2024 is already out and any hope of fixing Paladin now is gone, Vow of Enmity and Sacred Weapon are clear signs that WotC know they messed up with Paladin, since they had to entirely remove them from being part of the action economy, instead of using Bonus Action. Personally I don't mind them not using action economy but it leaves Glory and Ancient paladins obviously behind by not having something similar, but does free up the first bonus action for a spell to augment damage like divine favor/spirit shroud/holy weapon.
Fundamentally, a non-broken form of Paladin can only exist with a Paladin that does not fuel Smites with spell slots and that requires an entire class re-design. But I'll still state that Paladin is nowhere near as broken as Ranger right now. Paladin is still viable, just in a weird place.
you can make 3 weapon attacks and eldritch blast with valor bard:
1d6 ( attack with scimitar ) extra attack -> Eldricht Blast ), nick attack ( scimitar can be done as part of your attack action ), DW feat ( attack with your offhand weapon as a bonus action ) = 3 weapon attacks + eldritch blast and legal :)
as for fragile with point buy you can have 8/15/14/8/10/15 as starting stats, +2/+1 to chr / dex, you start with sorcerer = con save prof you take warcaster ( takes care of the conc issue ). you extend the cme and it will last 20 mins ( at least 2-3 encounters )
as for AC paladin & valor bard are just 1 AC apart ( medium vs hvy armor )
if push comes to shove, you can also easy outperform the paladin because of your full caster spells & spell slots and even still use 1 attack if you cast a spell.
and i don't see how you come to this math:
pure paladin can still output 3x(1d10)+4*(5*1d8+2d8)+1d4+2*6=~105,
even with a polearm you can't add in your reaction attack to the base dmg, and i don't see how you will attack 3x per round if you don't use a haste on you :) add to it how you are going 4*( 5d8 + 2d8 ) ? i would say its more : 2x 1d10+ 6+ 5 + 1d8 & 1d4 + 1d8 + 5 + 6 ( up to the DM if you can add GWM to the offhand attack of the Polearm ) = 60 / 81 ( with haste ) you can add another 6/8 with vow for criticals with 60% hit = 40 ( 45 with vow ) / 48 ( 60 with vow )
like i said at the start there's is abosulte 0 reason to take paladin beyond 6th lvl if you want the aura, if you don't care for the aura, its 1st / 2nd level
Warlock, Bard and Sorcerer don't get Weapon Mastery, so how are you benefiting from Nick? You'd have to take a feat for that which again is hitting the ASI, as is Dual Wielder. As I already pointed out, your maths is assuming a +5 to DEX and +5 to CHA, you can't with these levels achieve that and grab the feat.
Ok, so I assume you go Elf, because your WIS saves are so poor, you're easily charmed and else wise mind controlled, to the point where you basically slaughter your own party if they don't put you down... except even Elf's advantage against charm effects isn't really helping here, your Wisdom saving throw would be a +0, against a DC 19 save, you're making that only 19% of the time, if you're not an Elf, only 10% of the time you make the save...
Still this level of Min-Max does mean you only need 7 points of ASI. That is enough to take one feat and get the necessary +5s for your numbers, but you're using Nick from nowhere. Bard does not get weapon masteries, Warlock does not get weapon masteries and Sorcerer does not get weapon masteries, The only legal way you could do it is by taking the weapon master feat.
so are you taking Weapon Master, Dual Wielder or Warcaster? Then there is still the issue of both needing to be in 5 foot and also needing to not be in 5 foot that could only be solved by spell sniper... or taking attacks of opportunity which risks that valuable concentration. You both need 4 separate feats and also need 7 Ability points to get the +5 +5 while only getting 4 total ASI/Feat choices. There is simply no way to achieve what you're claiming here.
Now what is possible is to drop the melee weapons, pick up a Heavy Crossbow, perform 1 heavy crossbow attack (1d10) then cast eldritch blast, but this only gives you 5 total attacks, instead of 7, so that drops the actually achievable DPR quiet significantly but this removes the requirement for Spell Sniper, for Weapon Master and for Dual Wielder. You could get that +5 DEX and +5 CHA. Altho at that point, the +5 DEX makes far less sense, instead pick up Pact of the Blade and bind a magical Heavy Crossbow. Then warcaster +1ASI gives 2 free feats. Pick up Medium armor master for a nice +1 AC and pick up Boon of Fate, so you can maybe make a saving throw you'd else wise fail. Obviously Combat Prowess does better for this, but would also do better for the Paladin too, however not the choice I'd make for the optimized build.
As for this bard still being Fragile, it is. The difference in AC might only be 1.. except if the Paladin takes the Defence Fighting Style (which next to blind fighting in the best fighting style for great weapons), then it is an AC difference of 2, the Bard is taking far more damage.Now if you went with what I said above the difference would reduce back to 1AC but then that is a build that does far less damage, it is however build legal.
2nd Past that Paladin has far FAR more tools for survival than that 1AC difference, first of Aura of Protection boosts Paladin's saves, second off Paladin simply has Higher HP, you're comparing ~154.5HP (10+19*~5.5+20*2) vs. 130.5 HP (6+~3.5+18*4.5+20*2).
3rd Paladin gets Lay on Hands and can self heal at level 20, up to 100HP as a bonus action. About the only area where the bard takes less damage is Dex saves, tho if you go with the legal build I recommend, the Paladin would actually beat the bard even at Dex saves.
Now before the point comes up, of course the Bard can learn the Shield spell but then so can the Paladin via Magic Initiate. Now the bard could instead take toughness as their 1st level feat to close the gap in HP but effectively the bard would still be behind the Paladin.
4th, this still leaves a 3 point difference in con saves, that is actually still a huge difference even with both advantage. If the DC is 20 (a 40 damage AoE), the Paladin needs to only role a 9 to make the save where the bard needs to roll a 12. With advantage the Paladin makes it 84% of the time the bard makes it 70% of the time, the bard loses concentration almost twice as often as the Paladin. It is also worth noting that counterspell would have no advantage and so that is a straight up 15% more of the time the Paladin makes it.
Halbard has Cleave, thus as I said, this is against two opponents, not one, Cleave gives an extra attack on an attack once per turn and thus also gives an extra attack on reaction if there are two hostile creatures in range. Since you're going to theoretically optimized conditions, so am I but I can describe the build I use and keep it build legal.
The build uses PAM and a Vengeance Paladin, a reaction is as close to guaranteed as possible.
If a creature attacks you, that is a reaction
if the creature moves away from you, that is a reaction
If a creature moves within range of the polearm, that is a reaction.
With sentinel, if the creature takes the disengage action, that is a reaction.
With sentinel, if the creature attacks a friendly creature to you within range, that is a reaction
About the only way to get out of this situation is to teleport away, such as with misty step.
So yes, with a Vengeance Paladin with PAM, you can most definitely assume a reaction since that build gets so many things it can take reactions against, it is insane.
So here is the build
Starting ASI: 15+2, 12, 13, 8, 10, 14+1
Species: Elf (Wood Elf)
Class: Paladin 20 (Vengeance)
Origin Feat: Magic Initiate (Wizard) - Charisma, Firebolt, (any cantrip), Shield
Fighting Style: Defense
Feat 4: Polearm Master (Strength)
Feat 8: Great Weapon Master (Strength)
Feat 12: Warcaster (Charisma)
Feat 16: Sentinel (Strength)
Feat 19: Resilient (Constitution)
Would give a final ASI of 20, 12, 14, 8, 10, 16.
This is a good legal Paladin Build. Of course many would switch DEX and WIS but I go this way around since elf already helps with advantage for a good number of wisdom saves and it's also 1 better initiative, which helps.
Of course there is an alternative build which does a bit less damage but FAR FAR more tanky. That is to switch the Halberd for a Quarterstaff and then take up a shield, instead of Defense, take Duelling, it does about 5 less DPR, but is far more tanky, more so when magical shields come up. Also no longer need GWM. So can play around more with ASIs. You also lose cleave, but you change it for topple, which can help slow down creatures and hold them back from party. It's still basically 4 attacks a round, 2 less then the theoretical 6 attacks that halbard can get, tho 3 attacks on the first round since you use the bonus action to cast a spell to buff damage.
Now for the elephant in the room, the one big issue with this Bard build. It's high damage only really works in Tier 4, partly in Tier 3 too. But mostly in Tier 4. You waste an action (or quicken spell for a Bonus Action first round) to cast Conjure Minor Elementals, which comes online at level 7, but you need quicken spell else are basically missing the first round of combat and at 2d8, it's too much investment to be anything but a bonus action. So you need Sorcerer levels, 2 of them. You have to sacrifice spell slots to recharge the metamagics too. Then you also need 1 level of Warlock for Eldritch Blast else you're struggling with just two attacks.
You can attempt to cast Conjure Minor Elementals before combat but it's got a verbal component and at 10 minutes, DMs can easily rule that if you aren't casting it nearby, it isn't lasting until the combat but being verbal it can be heard. Additionally the spell says spirits flit around you which a DM can additionally say gives up any possibility of stealth too.
So the earliest you can use it at level 10 and at that point it's still behind Paladin on DPR. Sure you get it up to 4d8 now but Paladin has that Channel Divinity advantage, great weapon master and basically makes the same number of attacks, you can get 1 more attack with Eldritch Blast but it's still at 2 rays. Level 11 Paladin gets Radiant Strikes which is basically adding the same damage as that 3rd ray is. Level 12, the Paladin gets another feat but you don't, you do get that 6d8 conjure minor elementals, but it's a once per day trick. Level 13 Paladin gets their 4th level slots, Paladin can actually use divine smite on critical hits for 10d8, it's a pretty good use of a 4th level slot and vengeance paladins tend to get a good amount of critical hits. Level 14 you can now do a 8d8 conjure elemental on top of that 6d8. At level 14, arguable the Bard build could potentially be doing more damage, if it's a low magic campaign and neither the bard or paladin have magic weapons. By level 16 Bard is finally starting to actually pip out the paladin... 17 when the 4th ray comes in for eldritch smite it is a huge jump and conclusively the Bard is doing more damage.
When most campaigns generally do not go past level 12, what is the point in a build that only starts to peak at Tier 4? Additionally one has to consider how subpar this particular build would be in Tier 2, even at the start of Tier 3. As you have to make build choices which are... odd and only make sense when you're about half way into tier 3.
Just because you CAN get more from mixing and matching, doesn't make the class broken. A pure class paladin, is solidly in the middle when it comes to throughput when compared to other pure class characters. That makes it just fine. Not liking the design is fair. Saying the performace is inadequate is not fair. And it's certainly not as bad as some others in this thread will have you believe.
That makes paladin...fine.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
All of the Paladins features or spells don't care if you're a Paladin, either scaling off Charisma or Spell Slot Level. Its not that Paladins "get-more" from multiclassing, the class' structural issues make playing pure Paladin the worst way to play Paladin, even if they're both just hitting & smiting.
One element of 5e24's marketing was to "protect" class identity; Wizards can use Wish to cast Find Steed at 9th spell level; Paladins, at best, can spend a year of in-game crafting to create an enspelled item to cast Find Steed at 8th level (lol), or multiclass to compete at what's supposed to be "their" thing. There's clearly a design flaw by making the bulk of a Paladin's class identity revolve around spellcasting from the ground up, and it shows up at every tier of play.
Treantmonk's videos revolve around single target damage; not utility, control or aoe damage. Your Paladin at the table to even maintain damage is going to be using an action to attack the enemy (Attack action), cast <insert> smite (the Bonus action), and burn a limited resource each turn (their entire turn, and only on their turn), to deal adequate single target damage; being "in the middle" is crippling when the base class' core design is so restrictive in how you build or play it.
To put it this way: 2014 Paladin could use Thunderous Smite on a reaction attack; the 2024 Paladin can't.
The smite spells are both better and worse now, while at the same time, being significantly more restrictive than every other on-hit effect in the game for "in the middle" results.
Its inadequate because of its design; its action economy is limited in ways that the other classes just aren't, making a difference between being a "good" or "bad" subclass for it revolve around whether or not the feature is a free action (see: Devotion/Vengeance) or not (Glory/Ancients); while being a half-caster immediately puts pressure on how the class specific spells are designed around the existence of fullcaster class options / spellcasting and (non-optional) multiclass.
Find Steed shouldn't be a Wish target; Banishing Smite is bad for 17th level spell. Oath of Glory should be deleted; Paladins should have features at the end of T2 into T3 that interact with their spellcasting to improve it (if they're going to be half-casters, THEY NEED features like that). Instead, the Paladin is designed entirely around Aura of Protection and is stuffed with bad to mediocre player options from level 6 on.
So I'd say its bad, not good, by virtue of design. Being playable shouldn't be the only benchmark for any class in D&D, fun and rewarding should be.