Would not casting “dragon’s breath” on it give it an attack action under the “Specific overrides General” rule?
First of all, dragon's breath is a magic action, not an attack action. However, this should work, though there is usually some interpretability with specific beats general rules.
I think this is a reference to the following text from the 2014 version of Find Steed.
While mounted on your steed, you can make any spell you cast that targets only you also target your steed.
Dragon's Breath has a range of "Touch" and produces a Cone, so it doesn't qualify, and the 2024 version of Find Steed lacks anything close to the above language, so there's no sharing the spell.
As for the Magic, there's nothing in the rules for Mounted Combat suggesting a controlled mount can take such an action. They're pretty limited, so I'm going to have to disagree.
Would not casting “dragon’s breath” on it give it an attack action under the “Specific overrides General” rule?
First of all, dragon's breath is a magic action, not an attack action. However, this should work, though there is usually some interpretability with specific beats general rules.
I think this is a reference to the following text from the 2014 version of Find Steed.
While mounted on your steed, you can make any spell you cast that targets only you also target your steed.
Dragon's Breath has a range of "Touch" and produces a Cone, so it doesn't qualify, and the 2024 version of Find Steed lacks anything close to the above language, so there's no sharing the spell.
As for the Magic, there's nothing in the rules for Mounted Combat suggesting a controlled mount can take such an action. They're pretty limited, so I'm going to have to disagree.
You can touch the steed, can't you? Also, the argument for dragon's breath working is that it says "...the target can take a Magic action...", overriding the limitations of mounted combat.
I’d say you could certainly cast dragons breath on the mount. The issue would be more with the mount trying to use it. Since it’s controlled, it can only dash, dodge or disengage, so it can’t take the magic action needed to use the spell.
I had a Conquest paladin halfling that was allowed to summon a tweaked ape mount. I had a custom saddle which was basically a baby carrier backpack to ride it as it climbed and ran around, but I spent a lot of time dismounted with it throwing rocks. Spells like Aid really helped out survivability and I bought barding. Battle gorilla mount worked out well in the campaign which lasted until level 16.
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IMHO, Earthdawn is still the best fantasy realm, Shadowrun is the best Sci-Fi realm, and Dark Sun is the best D&D realm.
I still fail to see any reason why thou MUST have the steed attack & do(presumably) nova damage.
& the 2024 version explicitly exists to make it harder to have it do so.
You get a free ride & NPC pet friend, not an encounter cheesing tool, out of 2024 Find Steed.
It's not a "trap" because it's not meant to be focused on combat by itself, no matter what level it's cast at. At best it's an exploration and roleplay tool unless you focus on Mounted Combatant as a feat.
Think of the Find Steed as Yoshi. Then decide which incarnation, playstyle of Yoshi, & what depth of personality you want this Yoshi to have, before considering this spell bad.
There's a STARK series of differences between the independent adult Yoshi who beat Baby Bowser & protected Baby Mario, The Yoshi implied to be a Star Kid(Chosen One, essentially) & thus is the Yoshi from Mario Party/Kart/sports games & Smash Bros...and then there's the Yoshis you ride, then jump off of or throw away as a sacrifice to reach a higher platform despite the point(& sometimes level) incentives to not do so, even if you have zero choice in the matter to finish the job/game.
What Yoshi are you riding?
(Note:Building Mario Mario as a Paladin w/a Yoshi as his Steed is a fun idea I might do)
It's not a "trap" because it's not meant to be focused on combat by itself, no matter what level it's cast at. At best it's an exploration and roleplay tool unless you focus on Mounted Combatant as a feat.
Just going to say, Mounted Combatant is still woefully under powered and really doesn't enable using a mount properly in combat, nor tackles some of the bigger difficulties, like how to navigate a mount through a dungeon...
In terms of what it does give, Giving advantage is pretty good from mounted strike but it's only against creatures smaller than your mount and within 5 foot of your mount. Less damage from DEX saves is good but doesn't help with a good number of other effects and AoEs. Taking hits on behalf of your mount is a poor choice, the mount has a low AC compared to a Paladin, meaning you're just going to either get hit far more or have to let your mount take the damage, either way it's not good.
Overall, I believe Faithful steed should have filled in for the remaining issues, instead of just being 1 free casting for Find Steed at 2nd level a day... which is lackluster at level 5 and entirely pointless at level 20. Else wise Find Steed is basically like buying a Warhorse that you have a telepathic link with, it's really little more than that.
Find Steed itself has Life Bond, but Life Bond specifies 1st level+ spell, which means Paladin's main form of healing... Lay on Hands, doesn't have synergy with Find Steed, and then you have the bonus actions which are okay but all once/long rest and not adding that much, Fey Step is by far the best option. Else wise the mount is moving and taking either the Disengage or Dodge actions, based on the situation, the movement speed is actually not a great benefit as you still want to be near the rest of the party.
Overall, I didn't say it clearly before but Find Steed is not a trap because it offers a lot of utility, however Find Steed's primary purpose, a combat mount, is a trap (even with the mounted combatant feat). And to be clear, it is the primary purpose, the bonus actions literally are meant for usage in battle and while the Paladin is on the mount, Life Bond is there to be recovering health on the mount in battle, that it is considered a controlled mount in combat... it was clearly meant to be a combat mount, people just use it for an exploration tool and utility instead because that does justify using the spell.
Because cutting my Yoshi analogy seems to indicate that you're talking in optimizer terms.
No,. I am not talking in optimiser terms. I literally just stated the pros and cons of find steed/faithful steed/mounted combatant, nothing in here has to do with optimising and has everything to do with how the experience ultimately is lacklustre and pointless for using the spell for it's literal intended purpose, a purpose it also had in 2014 and failed to achieve then.
Ultimately the spell is intended for combat as it has multiple things in it that specifically exist for that purpose but it fails on that front, even with the mounted combatant feat.
It's not a "trap" because it's not meant to be focused on combat by itself, no matter what level it's cast at. At best it's an exploration and roleplay tool unless you focus on Mounted Combatant as a feat.
Just going to say, Mounted Combatant is still woefully under powered and really doesn't enable using a mount properly in combat, nor tackles some of the bigger difficulties, like how to navigate a mount through a dungeon...
In terms of what it does give, Giving advantage is pretty good from mounted strike but it's only against creatures smaller than your mount and within 5 foot of your mount. Less damage from DEX saves is good but doesn't help with a good number of other effects and AoEs. Taking hits on behalf of your mount is a poor choice, the mount has a low AC compared to a Paladin, meaning you're just going to either get hit far more or have to let your mount take the damage, either way it's not good.
Overall, I believe Faithful steed should have filled in for the remaining issues, instead of just being 1 free casting for Find Steed at 2nd level a day... which is lackluster at level 5 and entirely pointless at level 20. Else wise Find Steed is basically like buying a Warhorse that you have a telepathic link with, it's really little more than that.
Find Steed itself has Life Bond, but Life Bond specifies 1st level+ spell, which means Paladin's main form of healing... Lay on Hands, doesn't have synergy with Find Steed, and then you have the bonus actions which are okay but all once/long rest and not adding that much, Fey Step is by far the best option. Else wise the mount is moving and taking either the Disengage or Dodge actions, based on the situation, the movement speed is actually not a great benefit as you still want to be near the rest of the party.
Overall, I didn't say it clearly before but Find Steed is not a trap because it offers a lot of utility, however Find Steed's primary purpose, a combat mount, is a trap (even with the mounted combatant feat). And to be clear, it is the primary purpose, the bonus actions literally are meant for usage in battle and while the Paladin is on the mount, Life Bond is there to be recovering health on the mount in battle, that it is considered a controlled mount in combat... it was clearly meant to be a combat mount, people just use it for an exploration tool and utility instead because that does justify using the spell.
I have not found Find Steed to be a trap with Mounted Combatant, in 2014 rules at least. Massive movement boost + free Disengage make Paladin suddenly one of the most mobile PCs on the battlefield. Because you can cast it before a long rest and have the steed rest with everyone, it's essentially free. So hardly any downside before Mounted Combatant.
Mounted Combatant shores up 2 weaknesses of mounted combat and 1 weakness for many Paladins. 1) Evasion for your mount + 2) redirecting attacks to you make it much more durable. Strange to say redirecting attacks to yourself leads to more attacks to you - without the steed, they'd be against you anyway. Much better they target a PC with higher AC & HP. It's worked perfectly to keep my steed alive. 3) Advantage on medium-sized enemies is a really helpful offensive buff. Not all Pallies have easy access to Advantage, and since it is so multiple-attribute-dependent, other stats than STR need attention. This frees you to pump them, for a more well-rounded Paladin.
Strange to say redirecting attacks to yourself leads to more attacks to you - without the steed, they'd be against you anyway. Much better they target a PC with higher AC & HP. It's worked perfectly to keep my steed alive.
This is precisely why it's terrible because making the attacks against the PC with higher AC means that same attack that will hit you, might have missed if made directly against you.
Veer. While mounted, you can force an attack that hits your mount to hit you instead if you don’t have the Incapacitated condition.
I think the bit you missed is that when you use Veer, you do not use your AC, you're redirecting an attack that is already considered as HIT and that damage is now coming out of your HP pool, lowering your effective HP more than if it were against your AC where many attacks would likely have missed, giving you a vastly higher effective HP.
As for Leap Aside. yes it reduces the damage the steed takes from dexterity saving throws but the steed still has a very limited HP pool. 25HP from the free casting given by Faithful Steed, at level 17 for a level 17 Paladin, you can get up to 55HP but that is still woeful low for the level, even if you can redirect attacks. If it's an AoE or any save but Dexterity, the mount is still quiet vulnerable, for example against Synaptic Static or Sickening Radiance, effects that do not use Dexterity Saving Throws.
And I will maintain that a Paladin's best position remains in front of the party, if you leave your party that can cause issues more so against creatures with similar move speeds.
Strange to say redirecting attacks to yourself leads to more attacks to you - without the steed, they'd be against you anyway. Much better they target a PC with higher AC & HP. It's worked perfectly to keep my steed alive.
This is precisely why it's terrible because making the attacks against the PC with higher AC means that same attack that will hit you, might have missed if made directly against you.
Veer. While mounted, you can force an attack that hits your mount to hit you instead if you don’t have the Incapacitated condition.
I think the bit you missed is that when you use Veer, you do not use your AC, you're redirecting an attack that is already considered as HIT and that damage is now coming out of your HP pool, lowering your effective HP more than if it were against your AC where many attacks would likely have missed, giving you a vastly higher effective HP.
As for Leap Aside. yes it reduces the damage the steed takes from dexterity saving throws but the steed still has a very limited HP pool. 25HP from the free casting given by Faithful Steed, at level 17 for a level 17 Paladin, you can get up to 55HP but that is still woeful low for the level, even if you can redirect attacks. If it's an AoE or any save but Dexterity, the mount is still quiet vulnerable, for example against Synaptic Static or Sickening Radiance, effects that do not use Dexterity Saving Throws.
And I will maintain that a Paladin's best position remains in front of the party, if you leave your party that can cause issues more so against creatures with similar move speeds.
Don't dispute Paladin being up close with enemies, but that is often in multiple points on a battlefield, and mobility is still useful for any combat that is bigger than your standard 30-foot movement, especially if you need to avoid problem areas, OAs, and get yourself into optimal position. Again free Disengage is fantastic by itself.
Veer - you seem to be citing the 2024 version, which yeah diminishes the value quite a bit. The 2014 version states: "You can force an attack targeted at your mount to target you instead." That change would probably make me pass on mounted combat in 2024, so I'm in agreement there.
As for Leap Aside, I mean, of course one part of a feature would not protect against all things, lol. Very little in this game does that. And rightly so. But Evasion is not bad because it doesn't do other things as well. DEX saves are extremely common. Between redirecting attacks + Evasion, you reduce a steed's vulnerability greatly.
Last game specifically, a young red dragon dropped 60 points of damage on our level 8 group, and because my steed made it's DEX save, it took 0 damage instead of killing it (even 30 would have killed it). Lead Aside is actually more beneficial to a low-HP character like a steed because it zeros damage, not merely reduces.
Strange to say redirecting attacks to yourself leads to more attacks to you - without the steed, they'd be against you anyway. Much better they target a PC with higher AC & HP. It's worked perfectly to keep my steed alive.
This is precisely why it's terrible because making the attacks against the PC with higher AC means that same attack that will hit you, might have missed if made directly against you.
Veer. While mounted, you can force an attack that hits your mount to hit you instead if you don’t have the Incapacitated condition.
I think the bit you missed is that when you use Veer, you do not use your AC, you're redirecting an attack that is already considered as HIT and that damage is now coming out of your HP pool, lowering your effective HP more than if it were against your AC where many attacks would likely have missed, giving you a vastly higher effective HP.
As for Leap Aside. yes it reduces the damage the steed takes from dexterity saving throws but the steed still has a very limited HP pool. 25HP from the free casting given by Faithful Steed, at level 17 for a level 17 Paladin, you can get up to 55HP but that is still woeful low for the level, even if you can redirect attacks. If it's an AoE or any save but Dexterity, the mount is still quiet vulnerable, for example against Synaptic Static or Sickening Radiance, effects that do not use Dexterity Saving Throws.
And I will maintain that a Paladin's best position remains in front of the party, if you leave your party that can cause issues more so against creatures with similar move speeds.
Don't dispute Paladin being up close with enemies, but that is often in multiple points on a battlefield, and mobility is still useful for any combat that is bigger than your standard 30-foot movement, especially if you need to avoid problem areas, OAs, and get yourself into optimal position. Again free Disengage is fantastic by itself.
Veer - you seem to be citing the 2024 version, which yeah diminishes the value quite a bit. The 2014 version states: "You can force an attack targeted at your mount to target you instead." That change would probably make me pass on mounted combat in 2024, so I'm in agreement there.
As for Leap Aside, I mean, of course one part of a feature would not protect against all things, lol. Very little in this game does that. And rightly so. But Evasion is not bad because it doesn't do other things as well. DEX saves are extremely common. Between redirecting attacks + Evasion, you reduce a steed's vulnerability greatly.
Last game specifically, a young red dragon dropped 60 points of damage on our level 8 group, and because my steed made it's DEX save, it took 0 damage instead of killing it (even 30 would have killed it). Lead Aside is actually more beneficial to a low-HP character like a steed because it zeros damage, not merely reduces.
Yes, I am primarily talking 2024, in 2014, you have a better selection of mounts but notably most of them had even less HP making them even more vulnerable, while 2024 made mounted combatant worse, the otherworldly steed at least is a stronger stat block than the options for 2014. As you note a young red dragon (a CR 10 creature) could potentially one shot it (leaving you prone) yes you increased it from a 0% survival chance to a higher one... but what about when you later face an adult red dragon (a CR 17 creature), with it's DC21 Dexterity Save? yes they did later on release find greater steed but point really still stands.
If you could have both the 2024 otherworldly steed stat block while also having the 2014 version of mounted combatant then it might be usable in battle but without both, I personally do not think it's going to be worthwhile most of the time. More so since it still requires using a feat specifically for mounts. If you're a normal sized creature, your mount generally has to be a large creature which can be difficult to navigate through dungeons... or anywhere that isn't an open field. For a campaign that is all open-field combat then mounts are more usable but for campaigns in dungeons where you might need to go down ladders, scale a wall, fit through a narrow door, it just doesn't work well and isn't worth using a feat on.
I have to agree with resistance. There are certainly times and campaigns where mounted combatant is useful. But overall, it’s too situational for a feat. Any time you are not on your horse, you get no benefit from it. Sometimes when you are on your horse, you get no benefit from it. The evasion property is good when there’s a fireball, but it’s not going help when a hypnotic pattern renders the mount useless. And of course, you can’t really bring the mount inside. (Maybe you can if you’re a small pally and have a medium mount. And I once played an ancients paladin so the shared casting worked with misty step, which could help with some thing, like the ladders as mentioned.)
But paladins are pretty MAD. They want asi to boost stats, not something to make their mobility more survivable. And if the horse dies, you can always re-summon it. You’ll get more spell slots the next day, but you’ll only get 2-4 feats in the whole campaign.
Paladins’ MADness- yep, this substitutes for a boost to STR due to Advantage on most enemies. Plus the other benefits.
Mobility- Not sure any character doesn’t want more of this, especially when you are 30-movement high-damage melee? Helps overcome difficult terrain. And again,, plenty of combats involve greater range, especially for the best target, but also for Paladin’s aura and healing others if needed.
Low HP- Again, with 2014’s redirecting targeted attacks + Evasion means it is often rarely taking damage. Remember, it’s saves get boosted by my aura as well. And if it fails a save my Ancients aura cuts in half damage from spells.
Other spells/effects- Again, of course gaps in protection exist for any character. That’s part of the game. Still, being within an aura that boosts saves gives it much better chance than a steed with a no -Paladin.
Low ceilings- Have yet to encounter this. Aware they are thing of course. But we are in one of first dungeon crawls in a cave network… but the ceilings are high enough.
Other risk: Getting knocked off- This is actually what’s parted me from my steed in a combat. Unlucky hit & bad save. But that’s what’s gotten me, not any of the spells mentioned or low ceilings. And that only once or twice.
As an Ancients the survivability is a bit better but a Warhorse has a maximum HP of 19 and your aura of warding is only against spells (as you noted the fire breath of a young dragon almost one shot it). Yes it's saves increase with your Aura but as your Aura will cap at +5, a warhorse would still only have a +6 to dexterity saving throws where a level 17 Adult Red Dragon's Fire Breath is a DC of 21, so you'd need a 15 to make the save else that warhorse is likely one shot. Find Greater Steed does fix that issue in 2014 as I noted before but you basically full switch over the spell at that point.
As for dungeons, yes I've seen dungeons with 7/8 foot high ceilings, I have seen ravines and other narrow crossings in dungeons and I have certain seen ladders and other types of climbing checks, all things a large sized warhorse can not navigate.
Disagree. In 2024 its good. Just not as good as 2014. The free casting offsets some of the survivability of the mount. The mobility increase is still great. You can still use aid/inspiring leader/your aura to improve mount survivability. I am not sure the mounted combatant feat is that great anymore, but it does add +1 to str now so that is nice. Maybe once I get into tier 3 I will start to disagree, but in tier 2 the mount is great.
As an Ancients the survivability is a bit better but a Warhorse has a maximum HP of 19 and your aura of warding is only against spells (as you noted the fire breath of a young dragon almost one shot it). Yes it's saves increase with your Aura but as your Aura will cap at +5, a warhorse would still only have a +6 to dexterity saving throws where a level 17 Adult Red Dragon's Fire Breath is a DC of 21, so you'd need a 15 to make the save else that warhorse is likely one shot. Find Greater Steed does fix that issue in 2014 as I noted before but you basically full switch over the spell at that point.
As for dungeons, yes I've seen dungeons with 7/8 foot high ceilings, I have seen ravines and other narrow crossings in dungeons and I have certain seen ladders and other types of climbing checks, all things a large sized warhorse can not navigate.
In 2024, I think we can all agree, it's bad.
Well I have a long way to go til level 17. Until then, I guess I’ll ride (pun intended) the benefits of the mount.
Regarding places mounts can’t go, obviously they exist. But the generalization that steeds are bad because ceilings is obviously spurious due to the wide variation in how DMs setup combat encounters. Again few features are or should be ironclad. Having to adjust is part of the game, not a sign that a feature is bad.
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I think this is a reference to the following text from the 2014 version of Find Steed.
Dragon's Breath has a range of "Touch" and produces a Cone, so it doesn't qualify, and the 2024 version of Find Steed lacks anything close to the above language, so there's no sharing the spell.
As for the Magic, there's nothing in the rules for Mounted Combat suggesting a controlled mount can take such an action. They're pretty limited, so I'm going to have to disagree.
You can touch the steed, can't you? Also, the argument for dragon's breath working is that it says "...the target can take a Magic action...", overriding the limitations of mounted combat.
The DM has to decide if a controlled mount is also a willing creature for the purposes of the spell.
This is "DM, may I?" territory, at best.
It is an ally. I would argue this is more of a "Technically I can say this doesn't work" situation.
I’d say you could certainly cast dragons breath on the mount. The issue would be more with the mount trying to use it. Since it’s controlled, it can only dash, dodge or disengage, so it can’t take the magic action needed to use the spell.
I had a Conquest paladin halfling that was allowed to summon a tweaked ape mount. I had a custom saddle which was basically a baby carrier backpack to ride it as it climbed and ran around, but I spent a lot of time dismounted with it throwing rocks. Spells like Aid really helped out survivability and I bought barding. Battle gorilla mount worked out well in the campaign which lasted until level 16.
IMHO, Earthdawn is still the best fantasy realm, Shadowrun is the best Sci-Fi realm, and Dark Sun is the best D&D realm.
I still fail to see any reason why thou MUST have the steed attack & do(presumably) nova damage.
& the 2024 version explicitly exists to make it harder to have it do so.
You get a free ride & NPC pet friend, not an encounter cheesing tool, out of 2024 Find Steed.
It's not a "trap" because it's not meant to be focused on combat by itself, no matter what level it's cast at. At best it's an exploration and roleplay tool unless you focus on Mounted Combatant as a feat.
Think of the Find Steed as Yoshi. Then decide which incarnation, playstyle of Yoshi, & what depth of personality you want this Yoshi to have, before considering this spell bad.
There's a STARK series of differences between the independent adult Yoshi who beat Baby Bowser & protected Baby Mario, The Yoshi implied to be a Star Kid(Chosen One, essentially) & thus is the Yoshi from Mario Party/Kart/sports games & Smash Bros...and then there's the Yoshis you ride, then jump off of or throw away as a sacrifice to reach a higher platform despite the point(& sometimes level) incentives to not do so, even if you have zero choice in the matter to finish the job/game.
What Yoshi are you riding?
(Note:Building Mario Mario as a Paladin w/a Yoshi as his Steed is a fun idea I might do)
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
Just going to say, Mounted Combatant is still woefully under powered and really doesn't enable using a mount properly in combat, nor tackles some of the bigger difficulties, like how to navigate a mount through a dungeon...
In terms of what it does give, Giving advantage is pretty good from mounted strike but it's only against creatures smaller than your mount and within 5 foot of your mount. Less damage from DEX saves is good but doesn't help with a good number of other effects and AoEs. Taking hits on behalf of your mount is a poor choice, the mount has a low AC compared to a Paladin, meaning you're just going to either get hit far more or have to let your mount take the damage, either way it's not good.
Overall, I believe Faithful steed should have filled in for the remaining issues, instead of just being 1 free casting for Find Steed at 2nd level a day... which is lackluster at level 5 and entirely pointless at level 20. Else wise Find Steed is basically like buying a Warhorse that you have a telepathic link with, it's really little more than that.
Find Steed itself has Life Bond, but Life Bond specifies 1st level+ spell, which means Paladin's main form of healing... Lay on Hands, doesn't have synergy with Find Steed, and then you have the bonus actions which are okay but all once/long rest and not adding that much, Fey Step is by far the best option. Else wise the mount is moving and taking either the Disengage or Dodge actions, based on the situation, the movement speed is actually not a great benefit as you still want to be near the rest of the party.
Overall, I didn't say it clearly before but Find Steed is not a trap because it offers a lot of utility, however Find Steed's primary purpose, a combat mount, is a trap (even with the mounted combatant feat). And to be clear, it is the primary purpose, the bonus actions literally are meant for usage in battle and while the Paladin is on the mount, Life Bond is there to be recovering health on the mount in battle, that it is considered a controlled mount in combat... it was clearly meant to be a combat mount, people just use it for an exploration tool and utility instead because that does justify using the spell.
Are you talking in optimizer terms?
Because cutting my Yoshi analogy seems to indicate that you're talking in optimizer terms.
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
No,. I am not talking in optimiser terms. I literally just stated the pros and cons of find steed/faithful steed/mounted combatant, nothing in here has to do with optimising and has everything to do with how the experience ultimately is lacklustre and pointless for using the spell for it's literal intended purpose, a purpose it also had in 2014 and failed to achieve then.
Ultimately the spell is intended for combat as it has multiple things in it that specifically exist for that purpose but it fails on that front, even with the mounted combatant feat.
Post removed. Lacked context.
I have not found Find Steed to be a trap with Mounted Combatant, in 2014 rules at least. Massive movement boost + free Disengage make Paladin suddenly one of the most mobile PCs on the battlefield. Because you can cast it before a long rest and have the steed rest with everyone, it's essentially free. So hardly any downside before Mounted Combatant.
Mounted Combatant shores up 2 weaknesses of mounted combat and 1 weakness for many Paladins. 1) Evasion for your mount + 2) redirecting attacks to you make it much more durable. Strange to say redirecting attacks to yourself leads to more attacks to you - without the steed, they'd be against you anyway. Much better they target a PC with higher AC & HP. It's worked perfectly to keep my steed alive. 3) Advantage on medium-sized enemies is a really helpful offensive buff. Not all Pallies have easy access to Advantage, and since it is so multiple-attribute-dependent, other stats than STR need attention. This frees you to pump them, for a more well-rounded Paladin.
This is precisely why it's terrible because making the attacks against the PC with higher AC means that same attack that will hit you, might have missed if made directly against you.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/feats/1789171-mounted-combatant
I think the bit you missed is that when you use Veer, you do not use your AC, you're redirecting an attack that is already considered as HIT and that damage is now coming out of your HP pool, lowering your effective HP more than if it were against your AC where many attacks would likely have missed, giving you a vastly higher effective HP.
As for Leap Aside. yes it reduces the damage the steed takes from dexterity saving throws but the steed still has a very limited HP pool. 25HP from the free casting given by Faithful Steed, at level 17 for a level 17 Paladin, you can get up to 55HP but that is still woeful low for the level, even if you can redirect attacks. If it's an AoE or any save but Dexterity, the mount is still quiet vulnerable, for example against Synaptic Static or Sickening Radiance, effects that do not use Dexterity Saving Throws.
And I will maintain that a Paladin's best position remains in front of the party, if you leave your party that can cause issues more so against creatures with similar move speeds.
Don't dispute Paladin being up close with enemies, but that is often in multiple points on a battlefield, and mobility is still useful for any combat that is bigger than your standard 30-foot movement, especially if you need to avoid problem areas, OAs, and get yourself into optimal position. Again free Disengage is fantastic by itself.
Veer - you seem to be citing the 2024 version, which yeah diminishes the value quite a bit. The 2014 version states: "You can force an attack targeted at your mount to target you instead." That change would probably make me pass on mounted combat in 2024, so I'm in agreement there.
As for Leap Aside, I mean, of course one part of a feature would not protect against all things, lol. Very little in this game does that. And rightly so. But Evasion is not bad because it doesn't do other things as well. DEX saves are extremely common. Between redirecting attacks + Evasion, you reduce a steed's vulnerability greatly.
Last game specifically, a young red dragon dropped 60 points of damage on our level 8 group, and because my steed made it's DEX save, it took 0 damage instead of killing it (even 30 would have killed it). Lead Aside is actually more beneficial to a low-HP character like a steed because it zeros damage, not merely reduces.
Yes, I am primarily talking 2024, in 2014, you have a better selection of mounts but notably most of them had even less HP making them even more vulnerable, while 2024 made mounted combatant worse, the otherworldly steed at least is a stronger stat block than the options for 2014. As you note a young red dragon (a CR 10 creature) could potentially one shot it (leaving you prone) yes you increased it from a 0% survival chance to a higher one... but what about when you later face an adult red dragon (a CR 17 creature), with it's DC21 Dexterity Save? yes they did later on release find greater steed but point really still stands.
If you could have both the 2024 otherworldly steed stat block while also having the 2014 version of mounted combatant then it might be usable in battle but without both, I personally do not think it's going to be worthwhile most of the time. More so since it still requires using a feat specifically for mounts. If you're a normal sized creature, your mount generally has to be a large creature which can be difficult to navigate through dungeons... or anywhere that isn't an open field. For a campaign that is all open-field combat then mounts are more usable but for campaigns in dungeons where you might need to go down ladders, scale a wall, fit through a narrow door, it just doesn't work well and isn't worth using a feat on.
I have to agree with resistance. There are certainly times and campaigns where mounted combatant is useful. But overall, it’s too situational for a feat. Any time you are not on your horse, you get no benefit from it. Sometimes when you are on your horse, you get no benefit from it. The evasion property is good when there’s a fireball, but it’s not going help when a hypnotic pattern renders the mount useless. And of course, you can’t really bring the mount inside. (Maybe you can if you’re a small pally and have a medium mount. And I once played an ancients paladin so the shared casting worked with misty step, which could help with some thing, like the ladders as mentioned.)
But paladins are pretty MAD. They want asi to boost stats, not something to make their mobility more survivable. And if the horse dies, you can always re-summon it. You’ll get more spell slots the next day, but you’ll only get 2-4 feats in the whole campaign.
Paladins’ MADness- yep, this substitutes for a boost to STR due to Advantage on most enemies. Plus the other benefits.
Mobility- Not sure any character doesn’t want more of this, especially when you are 30-movement high-damage melee? Helps overcome difficult terrain. And again,, plenty of combats involve greater range, especially for the best target, but also for Paladin’s aura and healing others if needed.
Low HP- Again, with 2014’s redirecting targeted attacks + Evasion means it is often rarely taking damage. Remember, it’s saves get boosted by my aura as well. And if it fails a save my Ancients aura cuts in half damage from spells.
Other spells/effects- Again, of course gaps in protection exist for any character. That’s part of the game. Still, being within an aura that boosts saves gives it much better chance than a steed with a no -Paladin.
Low ceilings- Have yet to encounter this. Aware they are thing of course. But we are in one of first dungeon crawls in a cave network… but the ceilings are high enough.
Other risk: Getting knocked off- This is actually what’s parted me from my steed in a combat. Unlucky hit & bad save. But that’s what’s gotten me, not any of the spells mentioned or low ceilings. And that only once or twice.
As an Ancients the survivability is a bit better but a Warhorse has a maximum HP of 19 and your aura of warding is only against spells (as you noted the fire breath of a young dragon almost one shot it). Yes it's saves increase with your Aura but as your Aura will cap at +5, a warhorse would still only have a +6 to dexterity saving throws where a level 17 Adult Red Dragon's Fire Breath is a DC of 21, so you'd need a 15 to make the save else that warhorse is likely one shot. Find Greater Steed does fix that issue in 2014 as I noted before but you basically full switch over the spell at that point.
As for dungeons, yes I've seen dungeons with 7/8 foot high ceilings, I have seen ravines and other narrow crossings in dungeons and I have certain seen ladders and other types of climbing checks, all things a large sized warhorse can not navigate.
In 2024, I think we can all agree, it's bad.
Disagree. In 2024 its good. Just not as good as 2014. The free casting offsets some of the survivability of the mount. The mobility increase is still great. You can still use aid/inspiring leader/your aura to improve mount survivability. I am not sure the mounted combatant feat is that great anymore, but it does add +1 to str now so that is nice. Maybe once I get into tier 3 I will start to disagree, but in tier 2 the mount is great.
Well I have a long way to go til level 17. Until then, I guess I’ll ride (pun intended) the benefits of the mount.
Regarding places mounts can’t go, obviously they exist. But the generalization that steeds are bad because ceilings is obviously spurious due to the wide variation in how DMs setup combat encounters. Again few features are or should be ironclad. Having to adjust is part of the game, not a sign that a feature is bad.