For the record, I don't think this was intentional- but they made it so all Paladins always have Find Steed prepared. That's cool. Good flavor. pretty fun. The Otherworldly Steed even has a neat stat block.
But then they made it so that if you're riding your steed- which is half the reason to have one- it can't attack. As a result, you'd be better off never mounting up and just using it as a summoned ally.
edit: maybe not a complete trap, but it does suck to not be able to use it to trample enemies underhoof
It's attack is so lackluster, it's not worth using the creature to attack and it's more vulnerable in battle if you're not riding it. Personally I don't see Mounts as a good option in D&D. Their usefulness is for travelling long distances, while their usefulness in battle is much weaker and it can be difficult to navigate them through dungeons. I use em more to watch other mounts when party is in the dungeon, the 1 mile telepathy is quiet powerful and with a 4th level spell slot you can get a mount that flies, so long as it is within 1 mile, it can scout areas for the sky... and if anything happens to it then you can resummon.
I agree with resistance that mounts aren’t too great in this edition. Bit this version of find steed is pretty good. The issue with it being a controlled mount is nothing new. But now you get that cool bonus action ability. And it’s hp and ac actually scale, so this version is much more durable. But the big advantage is the 60’ move speed. Considering you can’t attack with it, you don’t lose anything by taking the dash action with the steed letting you move up to 120 feet per round. And if you don’t need to dash, you have it dodge and pull some enemy attacks, maybe. Or if you need to get away, the steed takes the disengage action and carries you off, so you get to move away and you still have your action. And we can’t forget that eventually it can fly. It gives you a huge boost to mobility. At least, it does when you can use it. Still not great inside. But it’s hardly a trap — there’s a lot more to combats than attacking.
You both do make valid points, and you are getting the mount for free so I suppose there’s only so much to complain about.
I also agree that someone on the design team for 5E clearly hates mounted combat -and mounts in general- and has since 2014
But by the same token, I also think that -tactically- handing me a Paladin a summon spell that gives them a companion with scaling HP and a good stat block, but then not allowing it to attack with the slam, is a bit of a crummy prank to pull.
let’s be real, riding in to glorious battle and trampling the mook hordes of evil/forces of good under hoof is just as much a part of the pally class fantasy as auras of protection and smiting
I get what you’re saying, but most classes that have a companion who attacks — ranger, artificer, druid — have to give up their bonus action to allow the companion to do so. Maybe that could work for a pally, but then you don’t get to smite, so probably not a trade people would take.
Honestly, the more I'm looking at new Paladin the less appealing it's getting. Like a monkey's paw, every positive change seems to come with a poisoned pill "You now get free Smites, but they cost your bonus action and are a spell meaning they can be countered or immuned by creatures immune to spells" "You get a free mount, and it has good stats, but it can't attack while you're riding it" "You get spells at level 1, but you're essentially a slightly more versatile sorcerer now- your spell choices are locked when you chose them, and you may only change A SINGLE prepared spell a day."
I'm not trying to whine, it just feels a little like the class got roughed up pretty bad in this transition while being sold as being an improvement is all
That’s fair that you don’t like it, but it’s not quite as bad as all that. Counterspell might be a problem, but under the new counterspell you at least don’t lose the spell slot. And the target of the spell is self, so it won’t matter if the target has a spell immunity.
A controlled mount from find steed couldn’t attack in the ‘14 version either.
You are right, there’s been a few nerfs to the class, but really, (imo) it kind of needed to be taken down a notch.
That's entirely fair, I'll admit I'm prone to hyperbole.
This is actually news to me- is that how it's supposed to work for spell immunity? Because one of my biggest sticking points on Smite being a spell is that I felt Spell Immunity really turned around and messed with being a Paladin. The example I've been using is Tiamat, who has this trait: "Limited Magic Immunity. Unless she wishes to be affected, Tiamat is immune to spells of 6th level or lower. She has advantage on saving throws against all other spells and magical effects." I've been operating under the assumption that, because the Damage from Divine Smite comes from a spell, and she's immune to spells, in this example it means that even Paladins of Bahamut just can't smite Tiamat at all which would not be good by any metric imo.
I agree, 5e seems to just really not like players having mounts or animal companions from my read and it's been a problem since 2014. I get that the goal was to simplify, but I also feel it does kinda suck from a flavor standpoint. I was hoping One might fix the problem with Mounts, hence my disappointment.
I do agree that Paladin was a strong class, and I wouldn't have been opposed to nerfing it a bit- for my money I just feel (and it's totally my opinion) that it's a bit much. I legit think limiting Smites to one per turn would have fixed a lot of the issue, but the psuedo-learned spells and making Smite cost their bonus action (where it's jockeying for position with Abjure, Divine Sense, Lay on Hands, and some spells good utility spells) as well are a bit too heavy handed for my tastes.
I get what you’re saying, but most classes that have a companion who attacks — ranger, artificer, druid — have to give up their bonus action to allow the companion to do so. Maybe that could work for a pally, but then you don’t get to smite, so probably not a trade people would take.
They might if it’s attack was worth the trade off.
I’m confused. Can you attack while mounted? Are we just unable to use the mount to attack in any way?
Also, sorry to sidetrack, but if Tiamat is immune to spells level 6 or lower, doesn’t that make non-hexblade warlocks completely useless against her? Or do cantrips not count?
I’m confused. Can you attack while mounted? Are we just unable to use the mount to attack in any way?
Also, sorry to sidetrack, but if Tiamat is immune to spells level 6 or lower, doesn’t that make non-hexblade warlocks completely useless against her? Or do cantrips not count?
You can attack while mounted, the mount can not.
Warlocks get Mystic Arcanum, which gives them access to a 7th, 8th and 9th level spell once per day but this is an issue for all casters as 7th+ level spell slots are extremely limited. A wizard gets 1 7th level slot over this in comparison by level 20. Once out of big spells, it's just helping the party in whatever way you can. Additionally some indirect sources may still cause damage, such as Summon Undead, since the ghost and skeleton options inflict necrotic damage, that is a lower levelled spell which could still be used as the spell is never directly affecting Tiamat, only the creature resulting from it is.
That's entirely fair, I'll admit I'm prone to hyperbole.
This is actually news to me- is that how it's supposed to work for spell immunity? Because one of my biggest sticking points on Smite being a spell is that I felt Spell Immunity really turned around and messed with being a Paladin. The example I've been using is Tiamat, who has this trait: "Limited Magic Immunity. Unless she wishes to be affected, Tiamat is immune to spells of 6th level or lower. She has advantage on saving throws against all other spells and magical effects." I've been operating under the assumption that, because the Damage from Divine Smite comes from a spell, and she's immune to spells, in this example it means that even Paladins of Bahamut just can't smite Tiamat at all which would not be good by any metric imo.
I agree, 5e seems to just really not like players having mounts or animal companions from my read and it's been a problem since 2014. I get that the goal was to simplify, but I also feel it does kinda suck from a flavor standpoint. I was hoping One might fix the problem with Mounts, hence my disappointment.
The way I read it, she would not be immune to smite, because the spell has a range of self, so it’s not targeting her. Similarly, if the wizard casts invisibility on you, it doesn’t mean she can see you since the spell didn’t target her. There might be some grey areas, like what if she stepped on an area of a grease spell? And some DMs might rule otherwise, but my reading is smite would work. As would, for example, magic weapon, since she is not the target of the spell.
Yeah, mounted combat is a bit vague at best. But this is actually a big upgrade from ‘14 where you could be 12th level and still have that warhorse with 19 hp. So even if the mount still can’t attack, it’s at least going to be more durable.
I’m confused. Can you attack while mounted? Are we just unable to use the mount to attack in any way?
Also, sorry to sidetrack, but if Tiamat is immune to spells level 6 or lower, doesn’t that make non-hexblade warlocks completely useless against her? Or do cantrips not count?
You can attack while mounted, the mount can not.
Warlocks get Mystic Arcanum, which gives them access to a 7th, 8th and 9th level spell once per day but this is an issue for all casters as 7th+ level spell slots are extremely limited. A wizard gets 1 7th level slot over this in comparison by level 20. Once out of big spells, it's just helping the party in whatever way you can. Additionally some indirect sources may still cause damage, such as Summon Undead, since the ghost and skeleton options inflict necrotic damage, that is a lower levelled spell which could still be used as the spell is never directly affecting Tiamat, only the creature resulting from it is.
There's also the fact that it's a fantasy game, so if you want the mount to attack with divine animal wrath or whatever, just smite with your weapon and flavor it as your warhorse crushing people.
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Paladin main who spends most of his D&D time worldbuilding or DMing, not Paladin-ing.
You both do make valid points, and you are getting the mount for free so I suppose there’s only so much to complain about.
I also agree that someone on the design team for 5E clearly hates mounted combat -and mounts in general- and has since 2014
But by the same token, I also think that -tactically- handing me a Paladin a summon spell that gives them a companion with scaling HP and a good stat block, but then not allowing it to attack with the slam, is a bit of a crummy prank to pull.
let’s be real, riding in to glorious battle and trampling the mook hordes of evil/forces of good under hoof is just as much a part of the pally class fantasy as auras of protection and smiting
I bet it was someone who ran a game with a small mounted combatant in 3.5 and wanted to rip their hair out. Granted, it was a Pathfinder game (1st edition), but after dealing with a Halfling Cavalier, the thought of dealing with more than one in a party had the DM threaten to quit if the group thought of having more than one in a group, and the DM before that tried as hard as possible to remove wilderness encounters from the game except when the narrative wouldn't make sense otherwise.
But by the same token, I also think that -tactically- handing me a Paladin a summon spell that gives them a companion with scaling HP and a good stat block, but then not allowing it to attack with the slam, is a bit of a crummy prank to pull.
Two things to note:
1. Find Steed scales (stat wise) poorly with half-caster slots.
2. Anyone with Wish can cast it for a 9th level version of the mount. When a Paladin finally hits level 17 to blow that 5th level slot, their Bard and Wizard bros are going to a steed with 4 more (19) AC, 40 more (95) HP, that also (lol) deals +4 (9) more damage (and scales for +4 more on the other options).
Its hilarious how making Find Steed scale in 2024 seems to benefit Paladin multiclasses and T4 fullcasters more than actual Paladins.
Faithful Steed could have been a feature that does something to address the Steed's poor scaling for the Paladin (like, a half-proficiency bump to spell level for the steed), but much like the bulk of 2024 Paladin, its just a really poorly thoughtout feature and spell on a class that still needs to invest in feats and magical items to keep their steed relevant in a campaign past level 7.
How often have you played in a game where someone used their daily cast of wish to get a horse? This is just another theorycraft thing that never actually happens. And if the wizard wants a really sweet horse that will do precious little for them, instead of just teleporting, I’d say they can go nuts.
How often have you played in a game where someone used their daily cast of wish to get a horse?
Find Steed's duration is infinite; once you cast it, you always have the permanent mount.
There will never be a reason for anyone with Wish at 17th level (or for the Cleric, 20th level) to not cast Find Steed in their down time, lol. Its a free, much more beefy, infinite flight, mount, that hits for 1d8+9 damage, and can either teleport or heal (2d8+9) you, or fear your enemies (using your spell save DC).
Its completely free, and I would expect every 17th level spell caster with Wish to pre-cast Find Steed at some point just to have it. Its a free infinite flight boon with its own action economy and features.
find steed kind of makes me want to play a horse archer paladin to guarantee I have a mount when I need one.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
How often have you played in a game where someone used their daily cast of wish to get a horse?
Find Steed's duration is infinite; once you cast it, you always have the permanent mount.
There will never be a reason for anyone with Wish at 17th level (or for the Cleric, 20th level) to not cast Find Steed in their down time, lol. Its a free, much more beefy, infinite flight, mount, that hits for 1d8+9 damage, and can either teleport or heal (2d8+9) you, or fear your enemies (using your spell save DC).
Its completely free, and I would expect every 17th level spell caster with Wish to pre-cast Find Steed at some point just to have it. Its a free infinite flight boon with its own action economy and features.
The question was, have you ever played in a game where it happened? Or I’ll open it up and say have you ever seen it happen? Actually happen. Not theorize about how good a choice it is.
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For the record, I don't think this was intentional-
but they made it so all Paladins always have Find Steed prepared. That's cool. Good flavor. pretty fun. The Otherworldly Steed even has a neat stat block.
But then they made it so that if you're riding your steed- which is half the reason to have one- it can't attack. As a result, you'd be better off never mounting up and just using it as a summoned ally.
edit: maybe not a complete trap, but it does suck to not be able to use it to trample enemies underhoof
It's attack is so lackluster, it's not worth using the creature to attack and it's more vulnerable in battle if you're not riding it. Personally I don't see Mounts as a good option in D&D. Their usefulness is for travelling long distances, while their usefulness in battle is much weaker and it can be difficult to navigate them through dungeons. I use em more to watch other mounts when party is in the dungeon, the 1 mile telepathy is quiet powerful and with a 4th level spell slot you can get a mount that flies, so long as it is within 1 mile, it can scout areas for the sky... and if anything happens to it then you can resummon.
I agree with resistance that mounts aren’t too great in this edition.
Bit this version of find steed is pretty good. The issue with it being a controlled mount is nothing new. But now you get that cool bonus action ability. And it’s hp and ac actually scale, so this version is much more durable. But the big advantage is the 60’ move speed. Considering you can’t attack with it, you don’t lose anything by taking the dash action with the steed letting you move up to 120 feet per round. And if you don’t need to dash, you have it dodge and pull some enemy attacks, maybe. Or if you need to get away, the steed takes the disengage action and carries you off, so you get to move away and you still have your action. And we can’t forget that eventually it can fly. It gives you a huge boost to mobility.
At least, it does when you can use it. Still not great inside. But it’s hardly a trap — there’s a lot more to combats than attacking.
You both do make valid points, and you are getting the mount for free so I suppose there’s only so much to complain about.
I also agree that someone on the design team for 5E clearly hates mounted combat -and mounts in general- and has since 2014
But by the same token, I also think that -tactically- handing me a Paladin a summon spell that gives them a companion with scaling HP and a good stat block, but then not allowing it to attack with the slam, is a bit of a crummy prank to pull.
let’s be real, riding in to glorious battle and trampling the mook hordes of evil/forces of good under hoof is just as much a part of the pally class fantasy as auras of protection and smiting
I get what you’re saying, but most classes that have a companion who attacks — ranger, artificer, druid — have to give up their bonus action to allow the companion to do so. Maybe that could work for a pally, but then you don’t get to smite, so probably not a trade people would take.
Honestly, the more I'm looking at new Paladin the less appealing it's getting. Like a monkey's paw, every positive change seems to come with a poisoned pill
"You now get free Smites, but they cost your bonus action and are a spell meaning they can be countered or immuned by creatures immune to spells"
"You get a free mount, and it has good stats, but it can't attack while you're riding it"
"You get spells at level 1, but you're essentially a slightly more versatile sorcerer now- your spell choices are locked when you chose them, and you may only change A SINGLE prepared spell a day."
I'm not trying to whine, it just feels a little like the class got roughed up pretty bad in this transition while being sold as being an improvement is all
That’s fair that you don’t like it, but it’s not quite as bad as all that.
Counterspell might be a problem, but under the new counterspell you at least don’t lose the spell slot. And the target of the spell is self, so it won’t matter if the target has a spell immunity.
A controlled mount from find steed couldn’t attack in the ‘14 version either.
You are right, there’s been a few nerfs to the class, but really, (imo) it kind of needed to be taken down a notch.
That's entirely fair, I'll admit I'm prone to hyperbole.
This is actually news to me- is that how it's supposed to work for spell immunity? Because one of my biggest sticking points on Smite being a spell is that I felt Spell Immunity really turned around and messed with being a Paladin. The example I've been using is Tiamat, who has this trait:
"Limited Magic Immunity. Unless she wishes to be affected, Tiamat is immune to spells of 6th level or lower. She has advantage on saving throws against all other spells and magical effects."
I've been operating under the assumption that, because the Damage from Divine Smite comes from a spell, and she's immune to spells, in this example it means that even Paladins of Bahamut just can't smite Tiamat at all which would not be good by any metric imo.
I agree, 5e seems to just really not like players having mounts or animal companions from my read and it's been a problem since 2014. I get that the goal was to simplify, but I also feel it does kinda suck from a flavor standpoint. I was hoping One might fix the problem with Mounts, hence my disappointment.
I do agree that Paladin was a strong class, and I wouldn't have been opposed to nerfing it a bit- for my money I just feel (and it's totally my opinion) that it's a bit much. I legit think limiting Smites to one per turn would have fixed a lot of the issue, but the psuedo-learned spells and making Smite cost their bonus action (where it's jockeying for position with Abjure, Divine Sense, Lay on Hands, and some spells good utility spells) as well are a bit too heavy handed for my tastes.
They might if it’s attack was worth the trade off.
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I’m confused. Can you attack while mounted? Are we just unable to use the mount to attack in any way?
Also, sorry to sidetrack, but if Tiamat is immune to spells level 6 or lower, doesn’t that make non-hexblade warlocks completely useless against her? Or do cantrips not count?
You can attack while mounted, the mount can not.
Warlocks get Mystic Arcanum, which gives them access to a 7th, 8th and 9th level spell once per day but this is an issue for all casters as 7th+ level spell slots are extremely limited. A wizard gets 1 7th level slot over this in comparison by level 20. Once out of big spells, it's just helping the party in whatever way you can. Additionally some indirect sources may still cause damage, such as Summon Undead, since the ghost and skeleton options inflict necrotic damage, that is a lower levelled spell which could still be used as the spell is never directly affecting Tiamat, only the creature resulting from it is.
The way I read it, she would not be immune to smite, because the spell has a range of self, so it’s not targeting her. Similarly, if the wizard casts invisibility on you, it doesn’t mean she can see you since the spell didn’t target her. There might be some grey areas, like what if she stepped on an area of a grease spell? And some DMs might rule otherwise, but my reading is smite would work. As would, for example, magic weapon, since she is not the target of the spell.
Yeah, mounted combat is a bit vague at best. But this is actually a big upgrade from ‘14 where you could be 12th level and still have that warhorse with 19 hp. So even if the mount still can’t attack, it’s at least going to be more durable.
I see. Makes sense I guess. Thank you.
There's also the fact that it's a fantasy game, so if you want the mount to attack with divine animal wrath or whatever, just smite with your weapon and flavor it as your warhorse crushing people.
Paladin main who spends most of his D&D time worldbuilding or DMing, not Paladin-ing.
I bet it was someone who ran a game with a small mounted combatant in 3.5 and wanted to rip their hair out. Granted, it was a Pathfinder game (1st edition), but after dealing with a Halfling Cavalier, the thought of dealing with more than one in a party had the DM threaten to quit if the group thought of having more than one in a group, and the DM before that tried as hard as possible to remove wilderness encounters from the game except when the narrative wouldn't make sense otherwise.
Two things to note:
1. Find Steed scales (stat wise) poorly with half-caster slots.
2. Anyone with Wish can cast it for a 9th level version of the mount. When a Paladin finally hits level 17 to blow that 5th level slot, their Bard and Wizard bros are going to a steed with 4 more (19) AC, 40 more (95) HP, that also (lol) deals +4 (9) more damage (and scales for +4 more on the other options).
Its hilarious how making Find Steed scale in 2024 seems to benefit Paladin multiclasses and T4 fullcasters more than actual Paladins.
Faithful Steed could have been a feature that does something to address the Steed's poor scaling for the Paladin (like, a half-proficiency bump to spell level for the steed), but much like the bulk of 2024 Paladin, its just a really poorly thoughtout feature and spell on a class that still needs to invest in feats and magical items to keep their steed relevant in a campaign past level 7.
How often have you played in a game where someone used their daily cast of wish to get a horse?
This is just another theorycraft thing that never actually happens.
And if the wizard wants a really sweet horse that will do precious little for them, instead of just teleporting, I’d say they can go nuts.
Find Steed's duration is infinite; once you cast it, you always have the permanent mount.
There will never be a reason for anyone with Wish at 17th level (or for the Cleric, 20th level) to not cast Find Steed in their down time, lol. Its a free, much more beefy, infinite flight, mount, that hits for 1d8+9 damage, and can either teleport or heal (2d8+9) you, or fear your enemies (using your spell save DC).
Its completely free, and I would expect every 17th level spell caster with Wish to pre-cast Find Steed at some point just to have it. Its a free infinite flight boon with its own action economy and features.
find steed kind of makes me want to play a horse archer paladin to guarantee I have a mount when I need one.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
The question was, have you ever played in a game where it happened? Or I’ll open it up and say have you ever seen it happen? Actually happen. Not theorize about how good a choice it is.