I just recently got some help with a two weapon fighter/warlock build and was interested in doing something similar with the Paladin, only instead of using hex or spirit shroud I would instead use Hunter’s Mark.
My main question is what asi/feats should I consider and when? I know about dual wield and defensive duelist, but I’m not positive how to integrate them properly.
I don’t know if it will work very well, owing to the action economy. You’ll need a BA to cast hunters mark. That means you can’t smite (which also needs a BA) on that round. So if the enemy survives until your next turn, then you can smite. I’m playing a ‘24 ranger with drakewarden. I’m really getting stuck with using my BA for HM and then my drake doesn’t get to attack. Also, you’d be crazy MAD. You need a 13 in str and cha to be able to m/c as a pally. And in dex and wis for a ranger. Leaving you with dumping int (which is fine) but also with a crappy con, which is not fine.
Paladin doesn’t get two-weapon fighting style either to not consume a bonus action. Not sure about ranger, but I’m guessing the same thing. I guess you could start as a fighter, but I’d hate missing out on later abilities.
So yes to fighters and fighter/warlocks, but no to paladins and rangers. What about bards or arcane trickster rogues?
Which rules are you using? Because under ‘24, you don’t need the style, you just need a nick weapon. And also they get all the fighting styles. Still a problem with the way the classes work together, but not for those reasons.
And what about bards and AT? What are you trying to combine them with?
Oh, i see. I’m using ‘24 rules. I forgot how the style worked. My bad. Still, with max dexterity it’s a shame. Plus I don’t know what other style i would pick.
Anyway, the idea was to use either hex or hunter’s mark with two weapons plus the dual wield feat for extra attacks. With fey touched, i figured bards and arcane trickster rogues could work well. Would they not?
Treeantmonk did a video on it for rangers, and TWF just can't keep up in single target damage. He did paladins as well. Paladins perform better, but they can use spells for direct damage more than rangers can due to the spell list.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Bards would be less MAD. Rogues you still need a 13 str, which you won’t end up really using, since two-weapon typically means finesse weapons. And rogues you still run into having a lots of different bonus actions. I guess the options are nice, though. But 3 levels of rogue just for some sneak attack die, and I’m guessing a few spell slots is not worth the trade of pushing back your paladin abilities.
Bards have some nice utility, and some subclasses can work well with a paladin. But either way, you really want to stick with pally through level 6 before you consider a m/c. So either m/c would come online at level 9. So you lose a subclass feature, asi, and abjure foes. Not worth the trade off to my mind.
I see. Thank you both as always. I’ll take a look at those videoes anyway just to hopefully better understand. I think i get how complicated multiclassing would be just for that too.
I know this is a bit off-topic, but what if i ran just a straight bard or a straight arcane trickster rogue? Could those two weapon/dual wield alright?
The thing to watch with casters and dual wielding is spell components. You need a free hand for any spells with an S component, and you need a hand to use the M component in spells that have that. So a weapon in each hand can interfere with your casting quite a bit.
The thing to watch with casters and dual wielding is spell components. You need a free hand for any spells with an S component, and you need a hand to use the M component in spells that have that. So a weapon in each hand can interfere with your casting quite a bit.
I thought the warcaster feat took care of that, or am i missing something?
Just stick with Paly and don't multiclass. Vengeance Palys get so much good stuff its hard to justify multiclassing. They get Relentless Avenger at level 7, the Haste spell at level 9 and the powerful Radiant Strikes at level 11.
The thing to watch with casters and dual wielding is spell components. You need a free hand for any spells with an S component, and you need a hand to use the M component in spells that have that. So a weapon in each hand can interfere with your casting quite a bit.
I thought the warcaster feat took care of that, or am i missing something?
Yes, the material component. It waives somatic, but you still need to have a material component in your hand, and even if your weapon can be a focus, not ALL spells can be used using an implement. Some need a hard component to cast.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
It’s a really wonky distinction. It’s actually worth checking with your DM if they actually use component rules, as some don’t worry about them. And if they do, work it out so you are both on the same page. Generally, warcaster helps with S spells, or with SM spells if you have a weapon as a focus (or it’s on your shield as with a pally or cleric). But if a spell is just M, or you don’t have a way to use a weapon as a focus, warcaster doesn’t help. I’m leaving V out of consideration because it’s not impacted either way. As I’m writing this, I’m realizing I haven’t given the 24 version a look to see if it’s any different.
That’s ok, you’re probably right. i think sword bard lets you use a sword as a focus to cover the material components. Not sure how arcane works; they get two daggers i thought, but perhaps arcane can only use one.
I dont know if hex works too well with this build. if you are taking duel weilder feat there is too much competition for your bonus action. As hexed enemies die you will have to move it and lose you dual weilder bonus action attack and also divine smite. Divine favor works just fine and is no concentration.
A first level divine smite does about the same damage as the bonus attack from duel weilder + divine favor if you hit, so that feat can save your lower level spell slots for other things.
I would take duel weilder feat at level 4 and defensive duelist feat at 8.
I had initially abandoned this build and in part my Fighter/Warlock two weapon build in favor of sword and board and raw stats. I’m honestly having trouble remembering why hex works on warlock but not on paladin.
In my warlock build I did take those feats you mentioned, but not before taking fey touched and +2 Charisma. Obviously I would want to change from Charisma to Strength, but I would have assumed to take a similar route for Paladin. Is this a mistake? Either way, what feat should I take to even out my strength?
I had initially abandoned this build and in part my Fighter/Warlock two weapon build in favor of sword and board and raw stats. I’m honestly having trouble remembering why hex works on warlock but not on paladin.
In my warlock build I did take those feats you mentioned, but not before taking fey touched and +2 Charisma. Obviously I would want to change from Charisma to Strength, but I would have assumed to take a similar route for Paladin. Is this a mistake? Either way, what feat should I take to even out my strength?
If you go vengeance paladin you get hunters mark and misty step built in so there really is no need for fey touched. I cant say what other feats you should take but i usually take them based on what would be fun as well as fitting my characters archetype and it tends to work out fine.
As a side note, rather than using Hunter's Mark, I would suggest you take a look at Divine Favor and Spirit Shroud as alternatives. Both are cast as a bonus action on yourself, buffing all of your attacks for 1d4 and 1d8 respectively, and it removes the need to move the spell if your target dies. Divine Favor also does not require concentration, so the two spells can stack if you have an encounter tough enough to warrant to castings over two rounds. Best part is that since they buff you, once the spells are in place, you can go back to using your Bonus Action for more attacks without having to waste time resetting the spells on a new target.
Did they just change divine favor? According to ArcaneEye.com it required concentration, but they haven’t done a full update in a while I gather. Anyway, I’m surprised I missed Spirit Shroud; it and Revivify are the two best level 3 spells according to the site. Strangely its not nearly recommended as highly for Warlocks; not even an asterisks for melee/hexblades.
I’ll have to take another look into this. I can’t remember offhand why I stopped! Lol. Perhaps that’s around the time Illriggers came out? Regardless, thank you again to everyone who commented! I’m glad and thankful I’m still getting help even now.
I just recently got some help with a two weapon fighter/warlock build and was interested in doing something similar with the Paladin, only instead of using hex or spirit shroud I would instead use Hunter’s Mark.
My main question is what asi/feats should I consider and when? I know about dual wield and defensive duelist, but I’m not positive how to integrate them properly.
I don’t know if it will work very well, owing to the action economy. You’ll need a BA to cast hunters mark. That means you can’t smite (which also needs a BA) on that round. So if the enemy survives until your next turn, then you can smite.
I’m playing a ‘24 ranger with drakewarden. I’m really getting stuck with using my BA for HM and then my drake doesn’t get to attack.
Also, you’d be crazy MAD. You need a 13 in str and cha to be able to m/c as a pally. And in dex and wis for a ranger. Leaving you with dumping int (which is fine) but also with a crappy con, which is not fine.
Hmm… i see…
Paladin doesn’t get two-weapon fighting style either to not consume a bonus action. Not sure about ranger, but I’m guessing the same thing. I guess you could start as a fighter, but I’d hate missing out on later abilities.
So yes to fighters and fighter/warlocks, but no to paladins and rangers. What about bards or arcane trickster rogues?
Which rules are you using? Because under ‘24, you don’t need the style, you just need a nick weapon. And also they get all the fighting styles. Still a problem with the way the classes work together, but not for those reasons.
And what about bards and AT? What are you trying to combine them with?
Oh, i see. I’m using ‘24 rules. I forgot how the style worked. My bad. Still, with max dexterity it’s a shame. Plus I don’t know what other style i would pick.
Anyway, the idea was to use either hex or hunter’s mark with two weapons plus the dual wield feat for extra attacks. With fey touched, i figured bards and arcane trickster rogues could work well. Would they not?
Treeantmonk did a video on it for rangers, and TWF just can't keep up in single target damage. He did paladins as well. Paladins perform better, but they can use spells for direct damage more than rangers can due to the spell list.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Bards would be less MAD. Rogues you still need a 13 str, which you won’t end up really using, since two-weapon typically means finesse weapons. And rogues you still run into having a lots of different bonus actions. I guess the options are nice, though.
But 3 levels of rogue just for some sneak attack die, and I’m guessing a few spell slots is not worth the trade of pushing back your paladin abilities.
Bards have some nice utility, and some subclasses can work well with a paladin.
But either way, you really want to stick with pally through level 6 before you consider a m/c. So either m/c would come online at level 9. So you lose a subclass feature, asi, and abjure foes. Not worth the trade off to my mind.
I see. Thank you both as always. I’ll take a look at those videoes anyway just to hopefully better understand. I think i get how complicated multiclassing would be just for that too.
I know this is a bit off-topic, but what if i ran just a straight bard or a straight arcane trickster rogue? Could those two weapon/dual wield alright?
The thing to watch with casters and dual wielding is spell components. You need a free hand for any spells with an S component, and you need a hand to use the M component in spells that have that. So a weapon in each hand can interfere with your casting quite a bit.
I thought the warcaster feat took care of that, or am i missing something?
Just stick with Paly and don't multiclass. Vengeance Palys get so much good stuff its hard to justify multiclassing. They get Relentless Avenger at level 7, the Haste spell at level 9 and the powerful Radiant Strikes at level 11.
Yes, the material component. It waives somatic, but you still need to have a material component in your hand, and even if your weapon can be a focus, not ALL spells can be used using an implement. Some need a hard component to cast.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
It’s a really wonky distinction. It’s actually worth checking with your DM if they actually use component rules, as some don’t worry about them. And if they do, work it out so you are both on the same page.
Generally, warcaster helps with S spells, or with SM spells if you have a weapon as a focus (or it’s on your shield as with a pally or cleric). But if a spell is just M, or you don’t have a way to use a weapon as a focus, warcaster doesn’t help.
I’m leaving V out of consideration because it’s not impacted either way.
As I’m writing this, I’m realizing I haven’t given the 24 version a look to see if it’s any different.
That’s ok, you’re probably right.
i think sword bard lets you use a sword as a focus to cover the material components. Not sure how arcane works; they get two daggers i thought, but perhaps arcane can only use one.
I dont know if hex works too well with this build. if you are taking duel weilder feat there is too much competition for your bonus action. As hexed enemies die you will have to move it and lose you dual weilder bonus action attack and also divine smite. Divine favor works just fine and is no concentration.
A first level divine smite does about the same damage as the bonus attack from duel weilder + divine favor if you hit, so that feat can save your lower level spell slots for other things.
I would take duel weilder feat at level 4 and defensive duelist feat at 8.
Defensive duelist feat is really good.
Interesting…
I had initially abandoned this build and in part my Fighter/Warlock two weapon build in favor of sword and board and raw stats. I’m honestly having trouble remembering why hex works on warlock but not on paladin.
In my warlock build I did take those feats you mentioned, but not before taking fey touched and +2 Charisma. Obviously I would want to change from Charisma to Strength, but I would have assumed to take a similar route for Paladin. Is this a mistake? Either way, what feat should I take to even out my strength?
If you go vengeance paladin you get hunters mark and misty step built in so there really is no need for fey touched. I cant say what other feats you should take but i usually take them based on what would be fun as well as fitting my characters archetype and it tends to work out fine.
As a side note, rather than using Hunter's Mark, I would suggest you take a look at Divine Favor and Spirit Shroud as alternatives. Both are cast as a bonus action on yourself, buffing all of your attacks for 1d4 and 1d8 respectively, and it removes the need to move the spell if your target dies. Divine Favor also does not require concentration, so the two spells can stack if you have an encounter tough enough to warrant to castings over two rounds. Best part is that since they buff you, once the spells are in place, you can go back to using your Bonus Action for more attacks without having to waste time resetting the spells on a new target.
Did they just change divine favor? According to ArcaneEye.com it required concentration, but they haven’t done a full update in a while I gather. Anyway, I’m surprised I missed Spirit Shroud; it and Revivify are the two best level 3 spells according to the site. Strangely its not nearly recommended as highly for Warlocks; not even an asterisks for melee/hexblades.
I’ll have to take another look into this. I can’t remember offhand why I stopped! Lol. Perhaps that’s around the time Illriggers came out? Regardless, thank you again to everyone who commented! I’m glad and thankful I’m still getting help even now.
The 2024 rules dropped the need for concentration on Divine Favor, so you can stack it with Spirit Shroud or Crusader's Mantle for stacking attack damage boosts.