So it's a playstyle you don't see very often, and I understand paladins don't get TWF style at level 2, but that can be fixed with 1 level dip of fighter.
But I really like the idea of being able to slap 3-5 smites in a turn and since it's a very uncommon playstyle for paladins I think it would be fun, especially when paired with the dual wielder feat.
What races, builds, feats, backgrounds, and aesthetics do you think would go well with it?
Mechanically I think it could work pretty well. Remember that without any class feature or feat, anyone can dual wield light weapons to use a bonus action to make an off-hand attack without ability score to damage. Normally this is pretty weak since it'll only be rolling a d6 for damage unless you have extra damage from something other than your ability score such as a magic weapon. But, as a paladin you can add divine smite damage and improved divine smite damage to your off-hand attack. For all paladins, it's a chance to roll a critical and do double smite dice and for 11th level paladins, it's always a d6+d8 of damage.
With the feat, you can use bigger weapons and do d8 damage with each hand...and get the +1 to AC.
With the fighting style, you can add your ability bonus which gives you that much more damage potential each round. Personally, I would allow a paladin to take the fighting style without needing to multiclass and I'm betting that a majority of DMs would let you take that style too (unless it's official play of course). Anything that'll prevent extra multiclassing and not break the game or theme is good in my book. But if you had to dip, then you could get it.
Put it all together and you could have a paladin with two longswords or rapiers making 2 to 3 hits a round, dealing d8+X damage with each strike, having a +1 to AC, and getting that extra chance to critical hit and burn the big spell slots for smite. At 11th level, you would be dealing d8+d8+X damage with each strike, not to mention any magic weapons you might have by then. It takes up your bonus action so it clashes with bonus action spells...and technically you don't have hands free for casting spells...and you don't have as high of AC as you would with a shield or the ability to get the big power hits with Great Weapon Master feat...but it's definitely a workable build, I'd think.
As for your final question about races and backgrounds, dual wielding always makes me think Renaissance with dueling and fencing. Starting with light weapons and upgrading to rapiers could work well with dexterity builds and dexterity races. But you could also be a strength-based paladin with two battleaxes or two warhammers just as easily.
The "build" that I find most curious though is for a paladin that doesn't have the feat or the fighting style and normally goes with a different weapon...but falls back on two weapons as a backup. Consider the greatsword paladin caught in a heated battle on the wall of a castle who just lost his signature weapon...disarmed by the hobgoblin captain who knocked his greatsword into the courtyard below. He scavenges a shortsword from a fallen goblin and presses the attack. A round later, he passes by another fallen goblin and brandishes a second shortsword. Now a whirlwind of two glowing shortswords (dealing extra radiant damage if he is 11th level), he calls on the power of the rest of his spell slots into smites from both swords.
It is better if you really want to get the most out of your spell slots more often, but is worse for average damage than one with polearm master, great weapon master and great weapon fighting.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Remember, as a paladin you get fine steed, so couple dual wielder with Mounted combatant, cast fine steed/fine greater steed to get a flying mount, dual wield lances, the. Hover 8 ft off the ground so you stab down on enemies with advantage, so you do 1d12 damage per attack, you could also have variant human to get 1 more feat, also to attack you enemies either have to shoot ranged, or do a running high jump, first they’d have to move away though meaning you get a 1d12 opportunity attack w/ advantage, this is how broken dnd can be
Long story short since I'm trying to type on a cell phone, but I have a character idea for a dual wielding Paladin of vengeance Aakocra. The important thing to note is that it is a DEX build Paladin. Since you can't fly wearing heavy or medium armor, you want to obviously Max up dexterity, which will give you one less total Armor class than heavy armor. But the end result is that you get both your main and offhand attack chance for smite, you also get haste at level nine, and you can fly.
Now for the actual weapons, dual wielding whipps. For 10 ft of range, which let's see you safely fight above your enemies and and whip them to death from safety. So really the hardest part of this build is finding magical whips
After level 9 you can multi-class into samurai 3 and just go ham with advantages when you attack people. And then of course you could add a single level of hexblade. But really the meat of it is the level 9 Paladin
All jokes aside though, it depends on what you want to do: Do you want this to max dmg, or do you want this just for the sake of having a paladin with 2 weapons. If it's for the first, there are better ways to max dmg.
A) Never did I say I was the first person b) anything’s abilities are always eventually determined by the dm c) dude chill I was just making a statement d) it’s a lot easier than you think to find a lenient dm
with divine smite possible on any hit, and improved divine smite on every hit, paladins benefit from extra attacks - bonus action or otherwise - more than most other classes. Doubling smite damage on a crit further magnifies the advantage for each extra attack you're able to make, as they're extra chances to crit as well.
As such, dual wielding works better for paladins than it does for nearly any other class - and that's even without dual wielding style, which is frankly unnecessary. Dual wielding already means giving up a shield, so you might be better off making up some of that ac with defense style anyway.
That's not to say that dual wielding is great or optimal. Bonus action attacks are good for paladins, but there are better ways to access them. The polearm master feat in particular gets you better bonus action attacks AND more easily triggered reaction attacks AND you either get reach with a halberd or glaive OR can keep the shield bonus to AC with a spear or quarterstaff. Yes it takes a feat, and feats are a rare and limited commodity for paladins who already have a lot of pressure on their ASIs from needing to raise both charisma and a weapon attack stat (and multiclassing hexblade doesn't help much until very late levels, since the pressure to raise charisma before anything else is even higher, and you also end up sorely wanting the war caster feat). But, for a damage oriented paladin, Polearm Master is very much worth it and very much better than dual wielding.
And polearm master isn't the only alternative. Great weapon master is another huge source of damage which will often provide bonus action attacks. And if you're in eberron the double scimitar is another strong option to consider.
Of course, feats and setting specific gear are optional rules that will not always be in effect, and even if they are in effect you may still prefer dual scimitars or short swords for style points. If that's the case for you, then you should be content to know that a dual wielding paladin, while maybe not "optimal", is still perfectly effective.
If you're not playing a Variant Human, ie you can't start with a feat, dual-wielding short swords (or even daggers) is an adequate smite multiplier until you can grab Polearm Master.
Early on in 5e I played a dual-short-sword wielding half elf single classed paladin, wearing medium armor and favoring dexterity instead of strength, taking oath of the ancients for an naturey, woodsy, elfy sort of feel. Rangery, in an Aragornish sense. Again, arguably not "optimal", but the character was plenty effective, with regular chances to shine, and pulled off the classic 'dual wielding woodland warrior' ranger gimmick better than any ranger I've played or seen played in 5e. Probably the greatest moment was leaping off my found steed to attack a low flying dragon, scoring two crits for two doubled smites plus a third hit for a regular smite, finishing off the dragon, and landing back in my saddle to ride past as the dragon crashed to the ground behind me. Fun times.
Early on in 5e I played a dual-short-sword wielding half elf single classed paladin, wearing medium armor and favoring dexterity instead of strength, taking oath of the ancients for an naturey, woodsy, elfy sort of feel. Rangery, in an Aragornish sense. Again, arguably not "optimal", but the character was plenty effective, with regular chances to shine, and pulled off the classic 'dual wielding woodland warrior' ranger gimmick better than any ranger I've played or seen played in 5e. Probably the greatest moment was leaping off my found steed to attack a low flying dragon, scoring two crits for two doubled smites plus a third hit for a regular smite, finishing off the dragon, and landing back in my saddle to ride past as the dragon crashed to the ground behind me. Fun times.
Long story short since I'm trying to type on a cell phone, but I have a character idea for a dual wielding Paladin of vengeance Aakocra. The important thing to note is that it is a DEX build Paladin. Since you can't fly wearing heavy or medium armor, you want to obviously Max up dexterity, which will give you one less total Armor class than heavy armor. But the end result is that you get both your main and offhand attack chance for smite, you also get haste at level nine, and you can fly.
I actually play a paladin with a very similar build to this, except different race that can't fly. (Until level 20 that is, when Avenging Angel kicks in.) She dual wields a rapier and a whip in order to have the reach option, and took the Dual Wielder feat obviously. She's really excelled in fights against a single foe with maybe a few flunkies, especially if a fiend or undead. Two weapon fighting adds an attack, having access to Haste adds another, and the Vow of Enmity Channel Divinity grants advantage on all those attacks against that single foe. That means even more chances for a crit. Another alternative to Haste is Hunter's Mark, also an oath spell, which adds a d6 to the damage of each of those attacks, so another good option. The Haste/CD combo does take a turn of setting up, but being Dex based does mean a better initiative bonus at least.
Unfortunately, the caveat with a dexterity based paladin is that you need 13 Strength in order to multiclass to anything, as it's a requirement for a paladin. I couldn't put enough points into strength with this paladin, so I just didn't multiclass and picked a different fighting style (Defense for the extra AC).
honestly, dual wielding fighting style doesn't really add all that much in the grand scheme of things. I'd lean towards defense style regardless if your build is only going to pick up a single style.
i would consider another route for the mounted build. Since mounted gives you advantage on anything smaller than your mount, i.e. anything medium and smaller, i would make a dex build with a half-elf, and get elven accuracy for triple roll on every attack, and dual wield short swords or scimitars, and maybe skip the dual wield feat, not that much need for that just for rapiers and +1 AC imo but still in consideration if i roll high stats. The relative difference between d6 swords and d12 lances becomes less significant when you weigh-in the paladin's damage kickers like the divine smites, improved smites and things you might use like divine favor, hunter's mark, spirit shroud, crusader's mantle. But with elven accuracy, you gain extremely good crit-fishing ability to apply double damage on divine smite whenever you crit, hence the main value of the dex build. ~15% chance to crit, 3 times a turn is no joke.
OP here. I actually went with a mounted build but a different route than dual wielding.
I took revenant blade, mounted combatant, and elvish accuracy. She's got the double scimitar so she's still making three attacks a round as if she were dual wielding, getting 6d4 a turn which is comparable to the 3d8 from dual wielding rapiers, just with a slightly higher average, AND she still gets the +1 to AC.
The really nice thing about this build is that with great weapon fighting you're refilling 1s and 2s, which are half the numbers you can reroll. Although since 4 is the cap, it doesn't make a HUGE difference, but it does make REALLY CONSISTENT damage, especially with mounted combatant/elvish accuracy.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
So it's a playstyle you don't see very often, and I understand paladins don't get TWF style at level 2, but that can be fixed with 1 level dip of fighter.
But I really like the idea of being able to slap 3-5 smites in a turn and since it's a very uncommon playstyle for paladins I think it would be fun, especially when paired with the dual wielder feat.
What races, builds, feats, backgrounds, and aesthetics do you think would go well with it?
Mechanically I think it could work pretty well. Remember that without any class feature or feat, anyone can dual wield light weapons to use a bonus action to make an off-hand attack without ability score to damage. Normally this is pretty weak since it'll only be rolling a d6 for damage unless you have extra damage from something other than your ability score such as a magic weapon. But, as a paladin you can add divine smite damage and improved divine smite damage to your off-hand attack. For all paladins, it's a chance to roll a critical and do double smite dice and for 11th level paladins, it's always a d6+d8 of damage.
With the feat, you can use bigger weapons and do d8 damage with each hand...and get the +1 to AC.
With the fighting style, you can add your ability bonus which gives you that much more damage potential each round. Personally, I would allow a paladin to take the fighting style without needing to multiclass and I'm betting that a majority of DMs would let you take that style too (unless it's official play of course). Anything that'll prevent extra multiclassing and not break the game or theme is good in my book. But if you had to dip, then you could get it.
Put it all together and you could have a paladin with two longswords or rapiers making 2 to 3 hits a round, dealing d8+X damage with each strike, having a +1 to AC, and getting that extra chance to critical hit and burn the big spell slots for smite. At 11th level, you would be dealing d8+d8+X damage with each strike, not to mention any magic weapons you might have by then. It takes up your bonus action so it clashes with bonus action spells...and technically you don't have hands free for casting spells...and you don't have as high of AC as you would with a shield or the ability to get the big power hits with Great Weapon Master feat...but it's definitely a workable build, I'd think.
As for your final question about races and backgrounds, dual wielding always makes me think Renaissance with dueling and fencing. Starting with light weapons and upgrading to rapiers could work well with dexterity builds and dexterity races. But you could also be a strength-based paladin with two battleaxes or two warhammers just as easily.
The "build" that I find most curious though is for a paladin that doesn't have the feat or the fighting style and normally goes with a different weapon...but falls back on two weapons as a backup. Consider the greatsword paladin caught in a heated battle on the wall of a castle who just lost his signature weapon...disarmed by the hobgoblin captain who knocked his greatsword into the courtyard below. He scavenges a shortsword from a fallen goblin and presses the attack. A round later, he passes by another fallen goblin and brandishes a second shortsword. Now a whirlwind of two glowing shortswords (dealing extra radiant damage if he is 11th level), he calls on the power of the rest of his spell slots into smites from both swords.
If you're going for a crit build, it sounds good with Oath of Heroism + Elvish Accuracy feat.
Maybe exploring into college of swords for smiteslots or champion fighter for 19/20 crits.
It is better if you really want to get the most out of your spell slots more often, but is worse for average damage than one with polearm master, great weapon master and great weapon fighting.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Remember, as a paladin you get fine steed, so couple dual wielder with Mounted combatant, cast fine steed/fine greater steed to get a flying mount, dual wield lances, the. Hover 8 ft off the ground so you stab down on enemies with advantage, so you do 1d12 damage per attack, you could also have variant human to get 1 more feat, also to attack you enemies either have to shoot ranged, or do a running high jump, first they’d have to move away though meaning you get a 1d12 opportunity attack w/ advantage, this is how broken dnd can be
Long story short since I'm trying to type on a cell phone, but I have a character idea for a dual wielding Paladin of vengeance Aakocra. The important thing to note is that it is a DEX build Paladin. Since you can't fly wearing heavy or medium armor, you want to obviously Max up dexterity, which will give you one less total Armor class than heavy armor. But the end result is that you get both your main and offhand attack chance for smite, you also get haste at level nine, and you can fly.
Now for the actual weapons, dual wielding whipps. For 10 ft of range, which let's see you safely fight above your enemies and and whip them to death from safety. So really the hardest part of this build is finding magical whips
After level 9 you can multi-class into samurai 3 and just go ham with advantages when you attack people. And then of course you could add a single level of hexblade. But really the meat of it is the level 9 Paladin
2014 5E mostly
3.5 maybe.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ch5vWBPCrl0 01:16-01:32
All jokes aside though, it depends on what you want to do: Do you want this to max dmg, or do you want this just for the sake of having a paladin with 2 weapons. If it's for the first, there are better ways to max dmg.
Varielky
You basically just made my build above.. but less armored.
Tell me how you're going to Find Steed a steed that can Fly? (With RAW.) In fact,
Then find me a DM that will let you "hover at 8 ft and attack with advantage".
Also, you haven't created a build, you have a concept. What is the optimal race(s), what are your stat distributions?
Lastly, I've had my build planned for months now. Please tell me more about how you're the first person to conceive of a flying duel wielding paladin.
2014 5E mostly
3.5 maybe.
Find Greater Steed gives you a flying mount.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I am aware, Find Steed does not.
2014 5E mostly
3.5 maybe.
A) Never did I say I was the first person b) anything’s abilities are always eventually determined by the dm c) dude chill I was just making a statement d) it’s a lot easier than you think to find a lenient dm
with divine smite possible on any hit, and improved divine smite on every hit, paladins benefit from extra attacks - bonus action or otherwise - more than most other classes. Doubling smite damage on a crit further magnifies the advantage for each extra attack you're able to make, as they're extra chances to crit as well.
As such, dual wielding works better for paladins than it does for nearly any other class - and that's even without dual wielding style, which is frankly unnecessary. Dual wielding already means giving up a shield, so you might be better off making up some of that ac with defense style anyway.
That's not to say that dual wielding is great or optimal. Bonus action attacks are good for paladins, but there are better ways to access them. The polearm master feat in particular gets you better bonus action attacks AND more easily triggered reaction attacks AND you either get reach with a halberd or glaive OR can keep the shield bonus to AC with a spear or quarterstaff. Yes it takes a feat, and feats are a rare and limited commodity for paladins who already have a lot of pressure on their ASIs from needing to raise both charisma and a weapon attack stat (and multiclassing hexblade doesn't help much until very late levels, since the pressure to raise charisma before anything else is even higher, and you also end up sorely wanting the war caster feat). But, for a damage oriented paladin, Polearm Master is very much worth it and very much better than dual wielding.
And polearm master isn't the only alternative. Great weapon master is another huge source of damage which will often provide bonus action attacks. And if you're in eberron the double scimitar is another strong option to consider.
Of course, feats and setting specific gear are optional rules that will not always be in effect, and even if they are in effect you may still prefer dual scimitars or short swords for style points. If that's the case for you, then you should be content to know that a dual wielding paladin, while maybe not "optimal", is still perfectly effective.
If you're not playing a Variant Human, ie you can't start with a feat, dual-wielding short swords (or even daggers) is an adequate smite multiplier until you can grab Polearm Master.
Early on in 5e I played a dual-short-sword wielding half elf single classed paladin, wearing medium armor and favoring dexterity instead of strength, taking oath of the ancients for an naturey, woodsy, elfy sort of feel. Rangery, in an Aragornish sense. Again, arguably not "optimal", but the character was plenty effective, with regular chances to shine, and pulled off the classic 'dual wielding woodland warrior' ranger gimmick better than any ranger I've played or seen played in 5e. Probably the greatest moment was leaping off my found steed to attack a low flying dragon, scoring two crits for two doubled smites plus a third hit for a regular smite, finishing off the dragon, and landing back in my saddle to ride past as the dragon crashed to the ground behind me. Fun times.
Very cool.
I actually play a paladin with a very similar build to this, except different race that can't fly. (Until level 20 that is, when Avenging Angel kicks in.) She dual wields a rapier and a whip in order to have the reach option, and took the Dual Wielder feat obviously. She's really excelled in fights against a single foe with maybe a few flunkies, especially if a fiend or undead. Two weapon fighting adds an attack, having access to Haste adds another, and the Vow of Enmity Channel Divinity grants advantage on all those attacks against that single foe. That means even more chances for a crit. Another alternative to Haste is Hunter's Mark, also an oath spell, which adds a d6 to the damage of each of those attacks, so another good option. The Haste/CD combo does take a turn of setting up, but being Dex based does mean a better initiative bonus at least.
Unfortunately, the caveat with a dexterity based paladin is that you need 13 Strength in order to multiclass to anything, as it's a requirement for a paladin. I couldn't put enough points into strength with this paladin, so I just didn't multiclass and picked a different fighting style (Defense for the extra AC).
honestly, dual wielding fighting style doesn't really add all that much in the grand scheme of things. I'd lean towards defense style regardless if your build is only going to pick up a single style.
i would consider another route for the mounted build. Since mounted gives you advantage on anything smaller than your mount, i.e. anything medium and smaller, i would make a dex build with a half-elf, and get elven accuracy for triple roll on every attack, and dual wield short swords or scimitars, and maybe skip the dual wield feat, not that much need for that just for rapiers and +1 AC imo but still in consideration if i roll high stats. The relative difference between d6 swords and d12 lances becomes less significant when you weigh-in the paladin's damage kickers like the divine smites, improved smites and things you might use like divine favor, hunter's mark, spirit shroud, crusader's mantle. But with elven accuracy, you gain extremely good crit-fishing ability to apply double damage on divine smite whenever you crit, hence the main value of the dex build. ~15% chance to crit, 3 times a turn is no joke.
OP here. I actually went with a mounted build but a different route than dual wielding.
I took revenant blade, mounted combatant, and elvish accuracy. She's got the double scimitar so she's still making three attacks a round as if she were dual wielding, getting 6d4 a turn which is comparable to the 3d8 from dual wielding rapiers, just with a slightly higher average, AND she still gets the +1 to AC.
The really nice thing about this build is that with great weapon fighting you're refilling 1s and 2s, which are half the numbers you can reroll. Although since 4 is the cap, it doesn't make a HUGE difference, but it does make REALLY CONSISTENT damage, especially with mounted combatant/elvish accuracy.