Unarmed strikes are melee weapon attacks because there are 4 categories of attacks, melee/ranged weapon/spell. They are not attacks with a melee weapon.
Divine smite requires a weapon because it references the weapon's damage die. Improved divine smite requires a weapon because it refers to hitting a creature with a melee weapon.
Unarmed strikes are melee weapon attacks because there are 4 categories of attacks, melee/ranged weapon/spell. They are not attacks with a melee weapon.
Divine smite requires a weapon because it references the weapon's damage die. Improved divine smite requires a weapon because it refers to hitting a creature with a melee weapon.
This.
For added clarification, "attack with a melee weapon" and "melee weapon attack" are not the same thing. "Melee weapon attack" means any melee attack that is not a spell attack, and thus includes weapons, natural weapons (like claws), unarmed strikes, etc. "Attack with a melee weapon" means that you are attacking with a melee weapon. The latter is a subset of the former.
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Paladin main who spends most of his D&D time worldbuilding or DMing, not Paladin-ing.
Unarmed strikes are melee weapon attacks because there are 4 categories of attacks, melee/ranged weapon/spell. They are not attacks with a melee weapon.
Divine smite requires a weapon because it references the weapon's damage die. Improved divine smite requires a weapon because it refers to hitting a creature with a melee weapon.
This.
For added clarification, "attack with a melee weapon" and "melee weapon attack" are not the same thing. "Melee weapon attack" means any melee attack that is not a spell attack, and thus includes weapons, natural weapons (like claws), unarmed strikes, etc. "Attack with a melee weapon" means that you are attacking with a melee weapon. The latter is a subset of the former.
Not a strict subset though, there's the odd case of ranged attacks with melee weapons.
Unarmed strikes are melee weapon attacks because there are 4 categories of attacks, melee/ranged weapon/spell. They are not attacks with a melee weapon.
Divine smite requires a weapon because it references the weapon's damage die. Improved divine smite requires a weapon because it refers to hitting a creature with a melee weapon.
This.
For added clarification, "attack with a melee weapon" and "melee weapon attack" are not the same thing. "Melee weapon attack" means any melee attack that is not a spell attack, and thus includes weapons, natural weapons (like claws), unarmed strikes, etc. "Attack with a melee weapon" means that you are attacking with a melee weapon. The latter is a subset of the former.
Not a strict subset though, there's the odd case of ranged attacks with melee weapons.
True that.
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Paladin main who spends most of his D&D time worldbuilding or DMing, not Paladin-ing.
For maximum clarification, just in case anyone reads this and jumps to any false conclusions with corner-case situations like the Magic Stone spell:
A melee weapon attack is any attack which is both a melee attack and a weapon attack or any attack made with an unarmed strike - this rule does not turn unarmed strikes into weapons and, technically, ranged attacks made with unarmed strikes would be melee weapon attacks if such a thing were possible (it is not).
A ranged weapon attack is any attack which is both a ranged attack and a weapon attack.
A melee spell attack is any attack which is both a melee attack and a spell attack.
A ranged spell attack is any attack which is both a ranged attack and a spell attack.
An attack with a melee weapon is any attack made with a melee weapon.
An attack with a ranged weapon is any attack made with a ranged weapon.
The reason you definitely can't Smite with an Unarmed Strike is based on an SAC rule, not on PHB content. The argument that because the Smite rule refers to the weapon's damage even though there might not be a weapon is perfectly normal WOTC word salad and in the vast majority of cases we don't get SAC rules so we have to interpret on our own, and the usual way we solve that particular bit of word salad is to assume that unarmed strikes are included.
As a result of the above, it is absolutely possible to do all of these:
Make a melee weapon attack with a ranged weapon.
Make a ranged weapon attack with a melee weapon.
Make a ranged spell attack with a ranged weapon (this is by definition also a ranged weapon attack as no rule in the game forces an attack to never be spell and weapon at the same time, but because this causes a rules paradox when you attempt to assign an ability modifier, most DMs house-rule that no attack can be both).
Make a melee weapon attack with a melee weapon where the melee weapon is a spell (so you're making a melee weapon attack with a spell).
Make a melee weapon attack with a weapon that is neither ranged nor melee.
Make a ranged weapon attack with a weapon that is neither ranged nor melee.
Make a melee weapon attack without using any weapon at all (unarmed strikes).
Yea… I just feel like theres a lot of “well at my table” comments coming if people actually start to push you on the details of any of this. It sounds like your table is fine with it and I’m glad you’re having fun, but I don’t see a scenario where that’s gonna play at an adventurers league table.
Let's say you are dual wielding daggers and you cast Divine Smite does it work on both of them?
You don’t really cast divine smite as it’s not a spell, it just uses spell slots, but that’s just a quibble. To answer the question, if you spend a slot to activate divine smite, it only applies to that single attack. However, you can spend a second slot on the second attack. You can use it whenever you make a melee weapon attack, so long as you have sufficient spell slots. If you have multiple attacks, you can use it on each of them. You can also use it on opportunity attacks, or any other times you might make an attack.
Let's say you are dual wielding daggers and you cast Divine Smite does it work on both of them?
You don’t really cast divine smite as it’s not a spell, it just uses spell slots, but that’s just a quibble. To answer the question, if you spend a slot to activate divine smite, it only applies to that single attack. However, you can spend a second slot on the second attack. You can use it whenever you make a melee weapon attack, so long as you have sufficient spell slots. If you have multiple attacks, you can use it on each of them. You can also use it on opportunity attacks, or any other times you might make an attack.
Very minor distinction, but it's applied when you hit with a qualifying attack.
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Paladin main who spends most of his D&D time worldbuilding or DMing, not Paladin-ing.
Let's say you are dual wielding daggers and you cast Divine Smite does it work on both of them?
You don’t really cast divine smite as it’s not a spell, it just uses spell slots, but that’s just a quibble. To answer the question, if you spend a slot to activate divine smite, it only applies to that single attack. However, you can spend a second slot on the second attack. You can use it whenever you make a melee weapon attack, so long as you have sufficient spell slots. If you have multiple attacks, you can use it on each of them. You can also use it on opportunity attacks, or any other times you might make an attack.
Very minor distinction, but it's applied when you hit with a qualifying attack.
Which doesn't matter in case of divine smite because it says you apply to the damage roll of the weapon. So while unarmed strikes are melee weapon attacks and qualify for being able to smite with them, they aren't melee weapons so you don't get to add the smite damage, effectively just wasting a spell slot for making your fists glow for a second but otherwise no additional effect.
Right. I wasn't saying you can smite with them (though I probably should have clarified that). I suppose I was assuming the comment to be a response to the previous part of the discussion instead of an answer to the OP's question.
Completely unrelatedly, Sun Soul monk + pally would be really cool if you could Smite with unarmed strikes.
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Paladin main who spends most of his D&D time worldbuilding or DMing, not Paladin-ing.
From Sage Advice Compendium on Unarmed Strikes and Divine Smite...
Can a paladin use Divine Smite when they hit using an unarmed strike?
No. Divine Smite isn’t intended to work with unarmed strikes.
Divine Smite does work with a melee weapon attack, and an unarmed strike can be used to make such an attack. But the text of Divine Smite also refers to the “weapon’s damage,” and an unarmed strike isn’t a weapon.
If a DM decides to override this rule, no imbalance is created. Tying Divine Smite to weapons was a thematic choice on our part—paladins being traditionally associated with weapons. It was not a game balance choice.
From Sage Advice Compendium on Unarmed Strikes and Divine Smite...
Can a paladin use Divine Smite when they hit using an unarmed strike?
No. Divine Smite isn’t intended to work with unarmed strikes.
Divine Smite does work with a melee weapon attack, and an unarmed strike can be used to make such an attack. But the text of Divine Smite also refers to the “weapon’s damage,” and an unarmed strike isn’t a weapon.
If a DM decides to override this rule, no imbalance is created. Tying Divine Smite to weapons was a thematic choice on our part—paladins being traditionally associated with weapons. It was not a game balance choice.
Just because it wasn't intended to work with it doesn't mean you can't technically. And they did call it sage advice not rule discussion rulings so if you want to get really nitty gritty then yes you can.
There is also the possibility of monk multiclass to get melee smites
From Sage Advice Compendium on Unarmed Strikes and Divine Smite...
Can a paladin use Divine Smite when they hit using an unarmed strike?
No. Divine Smite isn’t intended to work with unarmed strikes.
Divine Smite does work with a melee weapon attack, and an unarmed strike can be used to make such an attack. But the text of Divine Smite also refers to the “weapon’s damage,” and an unarmed strike isn’t a weapon.
If a DM decides to override this rule, no imbalance is created. Tying Divine Smite to weapons was a thematic choice on our part—paladins being traditionally associated with weapons. It was not a game balance choice.
Just because it wasn't intended to work with it doesn't mean you can't technically. And they did call it sage advice not rule discussion rulings so if you want to get really nitty gritty then yes you can.
There is also the possibility of monk multiclass to get melee smites
That's like saying "Just because characters weren't intended to be able to have 20 levels in all 13 classes doesn't mean you can't technically." No. "Technically," there is no RAW way to get Smite damage on an unarmed strike. I know homebrew is a thing, but there are rules for a reason - you can't just state that because the DM has final say you can 'technically' do anything. (One, I know you weren't necessarily saying that, but if you're gonna say "technically," use its technical definition. Two, I know that they say that limiting Smite to weapons, and excluding unarmed strikes and the like, was a thematic decision and there aren't any balance concerns for letting it works for punches; however, that was the relevant example, and also, if you can reinterpret one rule, you can reinterpret them all. Stuff does what it says it does, unless the DM makes it so it doesn't.)
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Paladin main who spends most of his D&D time worldbuilding or DMing, not Paladin-ing.
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Unarmed strikes are melee weapon attacks because there are 4 categories of attacks, melee/ranged weapon/spell. They are not attacks with a melee weapon.
Divine smite requires a weapon because it references the weapon's damage die. Improved divine smite requires a weapon because it refers to hitting a creature with a melee weapon.
This.
For added clarification, "attack with a melee weapon" and "melee weapon attack" are not the same thing. "Melee weapon attack" means any melee attack that is not a spell attack, and thus includes weapons, natural weapons (like claws), unarmed strikes, etc. "Attack with a melee weapon" means that you are attacking with a melee weapon. The latter is a subset of the former.
Paladin main who spends most of his D&D time worldbuilding or DMing, not Paladin-ing.
Not a strict subset though, there's the odd case of ranged attacks with melee weapons.
True that.
Paladin main who spends most of his D&D time worldbuilding or DMing, not Paladin-ing.
For maximum clarification, just in case anyone reads this and jumps to any false conclusions with corner-case situations like the Magic Stone spell:
As a result of the above, it is absolutely possible to do all of these:
My hand can be a tool
My hand can be a utensil
My hand can hit things
My hand can be a weapon
My hand deals divine smite
[roll]7d6[/roll]
Every post these dice roll increasing my chances of winning the yahtzee thread (I wish (wait not the twist the wish threa-!))
Drummer Generated Title
After having been invited to include both here, I now combine the "PM me CHEESE 🧀 and tomato into PM me "PIZZA🍕"
Yea… I just feel like theres a lot of “well at my table” comments coming if people actually start to push you on the details of any of this. It sounds like your table is fine with it and I’m glad you’re having fun, but I don’t see a scenario where that’s gonna play at an adventurers league table.
Let's say you are dual wielding daggers and you cast Divine Smite does it work on both of them?
You don’t really cast divine smite as it’s not a spell, it just uses spell slots, but that’s just a quibble.
To answer the question, if you spend a slot to activate divine smite, it only applies to that single attack. However, you can spend a second slot on the second attack. You can use it whenever you make a melee weapon attack, so long as you have sufficient spell slots. If you have multiple attacks, you can use it on each of them. You can also use it on opportunity attacks, or any other times you might make an attack.
Very minor distinction, but it's applied when you hit with a qualifying attack.
Paladin main who spends most of his D&D time worldbuilding or DMing, not Paladin-ing.
Point taken
No your punch isn’t a melee weapon.
It is, however, a "melee weapon attack."
Rules are dumb sometimes, but that's how it is.
Paladin main who spends most of his D&D time worldbuilding or DMing, not Paladin-ing.
Right. I wasn't saying you can smite with them (though I probably should have clarified that). I suppose I was assuming the comment to be a response to the previous part of the discussion instead of an answer to the OP's question.
Completely unrelatedly, Sun Soul monk + pally would be really cool if you could Smite with unarmed strikes.
Paladin main who spends most of his D&D time worldbuilding or DMing, not Paladin-ing.
From Sage Advice Compendium on Unarmed Strikes and Divine Smite...
Can a paladin use Divine Smite when they hit using an unarmed strike?
No. Divine Smite isn’t intended to work with unarmed strikes.
Divine Smite does work with a melee weapon attack, and an unarmed strike can be used to make such an attack. But the text of Divine Smite also refers to the “weapon’s damage,” and an unarmed strike isn’t a weapon.
If a DM decides to override this rule, no imbalance is created. Tying Divine Smite to weapons was a thematic choice on our part—paladins being traditionally associated with weapons. It was not a game balance choice.
While I get what you're saying; Smite is capped at 6d8.
It DOES require the target to be undead or a fiend.
Just because it wasn't intended to work with it doesn't mean you can't technically. And they did call it sage advice not rule discussion rulings so if you want to get really nitty gritty then yes you can.
There is also the possibility of monk multiclass to get melee smites
[roll]7d6[/roll]
Every post these dice roll increasing my chances of winning the yahtzee thread (I wish (wait not the twist the wish threa-!))
Drummer Generated Title
After having been invited to include both here, I now combine the "PM me CHEESE 🧀 and tomato into PM me "PIZZA🍕"
That's like saying "Just because characters weren't intended to be able to have 20 levels in all 13 classes doesn't mean you can't technically." No. "Technically," there is no RAW way to get Smite damage on an unarmed strike. I know homebrew is a thing, but there are rules for a reason - you can't just state that because the DM has final say you can 'technically' do anything. (One, I know you weren't necessarily saying that, but if you're gonna say "technically," use its technical definition. Two, I know that they say that limiting Smite to weapons, and excluding unarmed strikes and the like, was a thematic decision and there aren't any balance concerns for letting it works for punches; however, that was the relevant example, and also, if you can reinterpret one rule, you can reinterpret them all. Stuff does what it says it does, unless the DM makes it so it doesn't.)
Paladin main who spends most of his D&D time worldbuilding or DMing, not Paladin-ing.