Is the argument really that you can apply the camouflage, go for an hour long hike, and then use said camo to hide in your new location? That's rich.
@5PercentGlory: I highly recommend you take the disengage action. Pretty sure Jounichi has me on ignore these days and it's been the best thing since sliced bread.
Is the argument really that you can apply the camouflage, go for an hour long hike, and then use said camo to hide in your new location? That's rich.
@5PercentGlory: I highly recommend you take the disengage action. Pretty sure Jounichi has me on ignore these days and it's been the best thing since sliced bread.
I ignored him. Now I am working on getting these spam notifications of him still replying to me to stop.
and yes. That is literally what he is saying. Which is a complete homebrew to the literal text of the ability.
Is the argument really that you can apply the camouflage, go for an hour long hike, and then use said camo to hide in your new location? That's rich.
@5PercentGlory: I highly recommend you take the disengage action. Pretty sure Jounichi has me on ignore these days and it's been the best thing since sliced bread.
I ignored him. Now I am working on getting these spam notifications of him still replying to me to stop.
and yes. That is literally what he is saying. Which is a complete homebrew to the literal text of the ability.
And according to your interpretation, a 5-foot step renders it completely meaningless.
"Oh, you want to press yourself up against that rocky wall and hide? Sorry, but the nearest mud puddle is ten feet away. Better luck next time."
That's what makes Hide in Plain Sight objectively bad, Jounichi.
One minute prep + can't move = bad (only useful for ambushes or spying, but it's too 'lone wolf' and typically has bad synergy with the rest of party)
Nature's Veil scales off proficiency, bonus action, and you can move in combat. Or dash for a round invisible outside of combat. Much more applicable, will be used much more often, and less clashing with party members who don't want to do things stealthily.
Much more fitting for a magical ranger imo. Hide in plain sight sounds like a thing a vanilla fighter could do with just a performance check.
Hide in plain sight, as it is written, as it should be played (one minute prep to be able to hide later with a +10 bonus simply by laying flat against a surface) uses zero resources, is almost unbeatable (being spotted), and has many uses in a real game.
Is it the lack of using charges or times per day that bothers everyone with this ability and others like it? Is that why so many people think it's bad? It's obviously amazing. Don't be put off by the zero resource cost. That's part of the fun!
Hide in plain sight, as it is written, as it should be played (one minute prep to be able to hide later with a +10 bonus simply by laying flat against a surface) uses zero resources, is almost unbeatable (being spotted), and has many uses in a real game.
Is it the lack of using charges or times per day that bothers everyone with this ability and others like it? Is that why so many people think it's bad? It's obviously amazing. Don't be put off by the zero resource cost. That's part of the fun!
Uh...no. It's very clearly because you have to stand still the whole time after spending a minute setting up. Everyone has been pretty clear that is what makes the feature not practical to use in their experience.
Hide in plain sight, as it is written, as it should be played (one minute prep to be able to hide later with a +10 bonus simply by laying flat against a surface) uses zero resources, is almost unbeatable (being spotted), and has many uses in a real game.
Is it the lack of using charges or times per day that bothers everyone with this ability and others like it? Is that why so many people think it's bad? It's obviously amazing. Don't be put off by the zero resource cost. That's part of the fun!
Uh...no. It's very clearly because you have to stand still the whole time after spending a minute setting up. Everyone has been pretty clear that is what makes the feature not practical to use in their experience.
Mearly one more small balancing feature they had to add because it is so powerful.
On a serious note. If the ranger is scouting and chances being caught; if the ranger needs to get behind enemies that are searching for them, if there is a power enemy spell caster on the battlefield, If the ranger has cast on of their many incredibly powerful concentration spells and wishes to not be target by enemies, If the ranger is on watch with known creatures out in the wild. Any time the ranger wants to literally disappear right in front of others it can be done. It's great! This isn't even zealot mode right now.
Uh oh KENSHIN. You told Jounichi something was objectively bad. You should have known better.
@Jounichi: Cool your jets. I don't know where you get the idea it's okay to constantly talk down to people like that. I guess it works out though. People get to see you for who you really are bud.
It's the fourth button from the right in the toolbar atop the post editor. A little rectangle with the most basic triangle mountainscape in it. Click that and then copy paste the url.
It's the fourth button from the right in the toolbar atop the post editor. A little rectangle with the most basic triangle mountainscape in it. Click that and then copy paste the url.
Rangers dropping off in power in Tiers 3 & 4 is actually a misnomer, at least when it comes to the martial and half-caster brackets. It comes from people comparing the Ranger base class to the Paladin, Fighter, etc base classes and the Ranger seemingly coming up short. The issue with this is that the Ranger is built contrary to most other DnD classes in that they get most of their power from their subclasses. Action Surge, Divine Smite, Sneak Attack, Rage...these all come from the base classes, but the Ranger works differently. Worth noting is that, for example, the Paladin doesn't get any benefits from their subclasses (aside from spellcasting) at all from levels 7 - 15.
At 11th-level, the Fighter gets a 3rd Attack, and the Paladin gets Improved Divine Smite (which averages out to 2d8.) The Ranger on the surface gets nothing, but that ignores that by 11th, nearly all Ranger subclasses are providing a 3rd Attack as well. What this looks like changes between subclasses, but it ultimately amounts to 3 attacks. The exceptions to this are the Monster Slayer (who gets their 'third attack' at 15th instead,) the Swarmkeeper (who is a battlefield control subclass and doesn't care nearly as much about dpr), and the Hunter (who might actually get more than three attacks in the right circumstances.)
Furthermore, the Ranger also to gets a small, resource-free damage bump at 3rd-level when they get their subclasses. This die can range from a d4 to a d8, but the smaller ones scale at 11th, so by Tier 3, it ends up being between a d6 and a d8.
So if we look at consistent damage, the Ranger actually tends to pull ahead of the Fighter and the Paladin at 11th-level without expending any resources. Let's do some math. First, lets assume that the Fighter, the Paladin, and the Ranger are all using a d8 weapon (the actual die doesn't matter, so long as all three are using the same die.) For now, I'm also going to assume they will always hit all of their attacks (note: this is not going to be the case, but for now, let's assume it is.) Finally, I'm going to assume for simplicity's sake that all three classes have maxed out their DPR stat (Str or Dex, doesn't matter at the moment.) Lastly, I'm going to leave feats out of this for now because the amount of feats the classes get is variable and limited and what they want to do with those varies from person to person.
Note: Because of the nature of the Ranger's 3rd-Attack, the actual damage will vary somewhat from subclass to subclass. I will be making a separate post breaking down the average damage by subclass. This version is just my attempt at trying to hash out an average damage for 11th-level Rangers as a whole. I'm also going to be assuming their 3rd-level damage die is a d6, to maintain a conservative number. Please see subclass breakdown below for actual average damage of each subclass.
Without expending any resources whatsoever:
The Fighter will be doing three attacks, so that means 3(1d8+5)= 28.5 avg dmg
The Paladin will be making two attacks but adding Improved Divine Smite, so the damage calcs become 2(1d8 + 1d8 +5)= 28 avg dmg
Meanwhile, the Ranger is going to be making 3 attacks and adding their 3rd-level subclass damage, so we get 3(1d8 + 5) + 1d6= 32 avg dmg
As you can see, without expending any resources whatsoever, the average Ranger is putting out higher consistent damage than the average Fighter or Paladin at 11th-level. Now, Paladins and Fighters can easily overtake the Ranger's damage, but they do so by expending their limited resources. If a Fighter blows its Action Surge, it races right past the Ranger...for one turn. And then what? If a Paladin uses Divine Smite consistently to out-perform the Ranger...what's it going to do in the following encounter? I mean, congratulations on their massive damage output. Sincerely. It would suck if they expended such valuable resources for not much payoff. Meanwhile, the Ranger's own resources tend to play it safer, providing less damage but having it last longer. So even if the Paladin and Fighter outshine the Ranger for a few rounds, whenever they're spent (or conserving resources) the Ranger will consistently out-perform them.
If we assume, for a moment, that the Fighter has decided to pick up Crossbow Expert with its extra feat, then it begins to out-perform the Ranger's average damage...barely.
Fighter with Crossbow Expert: 4(1d6 + 5)= 34 avg dmg
If we assume the Paladin is taking a 2d6 weapon instead of a 1d8, then it also begins to outperform the Ranger...barely
All this assumes that the Ranger is sticking with its d8 weapon and not picking up any extra feats. Even when the Ranger is the least-damaging of the three, it still absolutely keeps up.
Of course, these numbers begin to get more complicated once you throw in spells, spell slots, feats, different weapons, and class features into the mix for all three of them. But even with all of those resources added for good measure, the Ranger still manages to keep up, if not overtake, the Paladin and the Fighter.
The other major point in average (consistent) damage is actually at 20th-level, where a Fighter with no resources and a d8 weapon will be doing an average of about 38 damage, a Paladin with the same build will be doing 28 damage, and a Ranger will be doing 32 + 5 (Foe Slayer.) Again, this assumes all attacks connect and no other resources are spent. Ranger keeps up just fine.
Thank you for this! It was an amazing post that really put down any discussion about Ranger DPR capabilities. Based on real data and numbers, not biased opinions.
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Is the argument really that you can apply the camouflage, go for an hour long hike, and then use said camo to hide in your new location? That's rich.
@5PercentGlory: I highly recommend you take the disengage action. Pretty sure Jounichi has me on ignore these days and it's been the best thing since sliced bread.
I ignored him. Now I am working on getting these spam notifications of him still replying to me to stop.
and yes. That is literally what he is saying. Which is a complete homebrew to the literal text of the ability.
Watch me on twitch
And according to your interpretation, a 5-foot step renders it completely meaningless.
"Oh, you want to press yourself up against that rocky wall and hide? Sorry, but the nearest mud puddle is ten feet away. Better luck next time."
Yeah cause this guy is SOOOOO ready to go for a walk on the beach. And when he gets there, boom. Just blends into the sand.
Man I needed a good laugh today.
That's what makes Hide in Plain Sight objectively bad, Jounichi.
One minute prep + can't move = bad (only useful for ambushes or spying, but it's too 'lone wolf' and typically has bad synergy with the rest of party)
Nature's Veil scales off proficiency, bonus action, and you can move in combat. Or dash for a round invisible outside of combat. Much more applicable, will be used much more often, and less clashing with party members who don't want to do things stealthily.
Much more fitting for a magical ranger imo. Hide in plain sight sounds like a thing a vanilla fighter could do with just a performance check.
Hide in plain sight, as it is written, as it should be played (one minute prep to be able to hide later with a +10 bonus simply by laying flat against a surface) uses zero resources, is almost unbeatable (being spotted), and has many uses in a real game.
Is it the lack of using charges or times per day that bothers everyone with this ability and others like it? Is that why so many people think it's bad? It's obviously amazing. Don't be put off by the zero resource cost. That's part of the fun!
Uh...no. It's very clearly because you have to stand still the whole time after spending a minute setting up. Everyone has been pretty clear that is what makes the feature not practical to use in their experience.
Mearly one more small balancing feature they had to add because it is so powerful.
Yes Frank, we all know how you feel.
LOL!!
On a serious note. If the ranger is scouting and chances being caught; if the ranger needs to get behind enemies that are searching for them, if there is a power enemy spell caster on the battlefield, If the ranger has cast on of their many incredibly powerful concentration spells and wishes to not be target by enemies, If the ranger is on watch with known creatures out in the wild. Any time the ranger wants to literally disappear right in front of others it can be done. It's great! This isn't even zealot mode right now.
Uh oh KENSHIN. You told Jounichi something was objectively bad. You should have known better.
@Jounichi: Cool your jets. I don't know where you get the idea it's okay to constantly talk down to people like that. I guess it works out though. People get to see you for who you really are bud.
How did you post an image?
It's the fourth button from the right in the toolbar atop the post editor. A little rectangle with the most basic triangle mountainscape in it. Click that and then copy paste the url.
Nice! Thanks!
No problem Frank. Memes incoming. My body is ready.
LOL!!
I may be a zealot, but I'm not a monster.
We're all monsters Frank.
Ha! Yes.
Hide in plain site clearly would benefit from some "Sage advice"
Thank you for this! It was an amazing post that really put down any discussion about Ranger DPR capabilities. Based on real data and numbers, not biased opinions.