The rules could have simply said the ranger gets the double proficiency bonus on nature and survival checks if proficient. But they don’t. They specifically mention all intelligence amd wisdom skills (if proficient) are capable.
Perhaps AaronWho would give us an example of how insight would work.
Yes, but they do so in the most vague and open to interpretation way possible. As to how insight would work in a way that connects to NE....
I genuinely can't think of an example of how you would apply insight as it relates to a terrain. Nor have I seen one provided. In the cart scenario if the DM wants to give the player the option of using insight on the person in addition to a nature/survival check fine, but I would argue that the nature/survival check is the only one that NE might apply to depending on which scenario you are trying to investigate.
How would you use insight ever? I'm attempting to separate the two. Break it down a bit.
Any conversation where you think the other person or speaking creature may be lying. Or something like "how do they seem, are they nervous", " do I think they are up to something", "does that seem like he is lowballing/overcharging me" - things like that
But only a person? Not an animal?
Not unless it is speaking to the entire party somehow
Here's where your kind of falling down in our examples here Aaron. Insight is not just about spoken words. it's not just converstional. It can be all kinds of non-verbal queues even to do with somebody that your not actively interacting with. There is nothing about it that says you have to be the one engaging them in conversation or anything like that. That's a self imposed restriction your putting on it.
Insight works just as well on that jittery person down the Alley as it does the con artist or the bartender or the shopkeep that your speaking directly to. And it doesn't have to be because anything they said. That's just one limited aspect of how it works but hardly encompasses everything. Guards being Nervous is a standard example of using insight to find out something is wrong even without speaking to them. The Jittery person that you notice is another. These are the types of things that are so common they are practically cliche'd standard tropes in all forms of storytelling that we see all the time from tv programs, to movies, to books, to plays.
These things can all be done without direct interaction. They happen alot. as does things like animals or other things that people see running away in what seems a peaceful setting yet protagonists somehow know that something dangerous is happening just around the bend. Usually with an unrealistic dramatic reveal of all kinds of noise once they set their eyes on it that they should have been able to hear before they turned that corner. This is another example of Insight. Insight is an awareness about things going on that aren't necessarily directly perceptible. Insight in a lot of ways is the Skill for Hunches. Natural instincts. It's what turns that bead of sweat on somebodies forehead that you notice through Perception into That person being nervous rather than just a little hot. It translates seeing that person that is a bit eager into somebody that is scamming you as he tells you it's worthless and he can only offer you a little for it. otherwise that's just an eager person for any number of reasons that just don't matter to you.
Here's where your kind of falling down in our examples here Aaron. Insight is not just about spoken words. it's not just converstional. It can be all kinds of non-verbal queues even to do with somebody that your not actively interacting with. There is nothing about it that says you have to be the one engaging them in conversation or anything like that. That's a self imposed restriction your putting on it.
Insight works just as well on that jittery person down the Alley as it does the con artist or the bartender or the shopkeep that your speaking directly to. And it doesn't have to be because anything they said. That's just one limited aspect of how it works but hardly encompasses everything. Guards being Nervous is a standard example of using insight to find out something is wrong even without speaking to them. The Jittery person that you notice is another. These are the types of things that are so common they are practically cliche'd standard tropes in all forms of storytelling that we see all the time from tv programs, to movies, to books, to plays.
These things can all be done without direct interaction. They happen alot. as does things like animals or other things that people see running away in what seems a peaceful setting yet protagonists somehow know that something dangerous is happening just around the bend. Usually with an unrealistic dramatic reveal of all kinds of noise once they set their eyes on it that they should have been able to hear before they turned that corner. This is another example of Insight. Insight is an awareness about things going on that aren't necessarily directly perceptible. Insight in a lot of ways is the Skill for Hunches. Natural instincts. It's what turns that bead of sweat on somebodies forehead that you notice through Perception into That person being nervous rather than just a little hot. It translates seeing that person that is a bit eager into somebody that is scamming you as he tells you it's worthless and he can only offer you a little for it. otherwise that's just an eager person for any number of reasons that just don't matter to you.
I agree that it can be non-verbal, but literally every example you gave is something that would happen in a city - which isn’t a terrain option and therefore NE wouldn’t apply anyway. The only one that might happen in a terrain is an animal running away, which 9 times out of 10 is gonna be a perception check to see if you notice what spooked them and if you insisted on focusing on the animal rather than what ever they are reacting to (that 10th time) I am gonna call for nature or animal handling, whichever you want - not insight.
Here's where your kind of falling down in our examples here Aaron. Insight is not just about spoken words. it's not just converstional. It can be all kinds of non-verbal queues even to do with somebody that your not actively interacting with. There is nothing about it that says you have to be the one engaging them in conversation or anything like that. That's a self imposed restriction your putting on it.
Insight works just as well on that jittery person down the Alley as it does the con artist or the bartender or the shopkeep that your speaking directly to. And it doesn't have to be because anything they said. That's just one limited aspect of how it works but hardly encompasses everything. Guards being Nervous is a standard example of using insight to find out something is wrong even without speaking to them. The Jittery person that you notice is another. These are the types of things that are so common they are practically cliche'd standard tropes in all forms of storytelling that we see all the time from tv programs, to movies, to books, to plays.
These things can all be done without direct interaction. They happen alot. as does things like animals or other things that people see running away in what seems a peaceful setting yet protagonists somehow know that something dangerous is happening just around the bend. Usually with an unrealistic dramatic reveal of all kinds of noise once they set their eyes on it that they should have been able to hear before they turned that corner. This is another example of Insight. Insight is an awareness about things going on that aren't necessarily directly perceptible. Insight in a lot of ways is the Skill for Hunches. Natural instincts. It's what turns that bead of sweat on somebodies forehead that you notice through Perception into That person being nervous rather than just a little hot. It translates seeing that person that is a bit eager into somebody that is scamming you as he tells you it's worthless and he can only offer you a little for it. otherwise that's just an eager person for any number of reasons that just don't matter to you.
I agree that it can be non-verbal, but literally every example you gave is something that would happen in a city - which isn’t a terrain option and therefore NE wouldn’t apply anyway. The only one that might happen in a terrain is an animal running away, which 9 times out of 10 is gonna be a perception check to see if you notice what spooked them and if you insisted on focusing on the animal rather than what ever they are reacting to (that 10th time) I am gonna call for nature or animal handling, whichever you want - not insight.
I gave them for a city to simply show that it was much more widely applicable than you were giving it in general. But here's the thing. Most of those city examples. Can easily be turned into nature examples with just a little change in Descriptive wording... Turn that jittery person in an alleyway to coming upon them on a trail for example. That Shopkeep could just as easily be a traveling Peddler that you ran into almost anywhere reasonable. Or might even be specific or known to certain area's with certain kinds of terrain that makes his business important.
And the Guards being Nervous exmple? That's not actually just a city example. That is an example that can litterally happen anywhere you run into guards. Whether it's the guards to an Enemy Camp. The Guards to a wilderness fort. The Guards that patrol a specific area or even the Guards of a castle. But it's easy to place in a city if we don't bother to think it through any further than our presumptions on where we are going to find guards without thinking of all the places we might truthfully run into them at.
Nor were all my examples strictly city examples. Because my mention of animals is most likely to happen in places of nature. But you chose to actually make it a city example.
Nature is knowing the difference between a dog and a cat. It's intelligence based. K9 and feline. Mating habits, diets, sounds made for what reasons, lifespan, etc. This skill has zero to do with actual interaction with real beasts. A robot can have a high nature skill. It's all in books and can be tested academically.
Animal handling is moving, manipulating, and otherwise controlling or influencing an animal's behavior, movement, or actions. It is wisdom based as it is a method of simple communication of what you do and how you do it and what impact it has on the animal's reaction or willingness to abide. It also covers physically "handling" an animal. Think of holding a snake or small bird, riding a horse, or interacting with a chimpanzee. Strength animal handling and dexterity animal handling are two of my favorite skills with different abilities!
Insight (in regards to animals) is intuiting the animal's mood, demeanor, possible motivations, and perhaps next actions. It is the opposite of animal handling, and together they form communication as best as can be achieved between a beast and humanoid. Insight is responsive to signs given off by a creature with or without a common form of language, not asserting your desire onto one.
The dog whisperer has good (wisdom) animal handling, but he has a very high insight in regards to dogs. A cowboy has very good (strength/dexterity) animal handling (riding a bronco) but may not need to have any insight into an animal's mood (which is generally angry). That would be the trainer's job.
Seeing a cat in an alley and knowing it is malnourished is nature, as would knowing it might be sick (maybe medicine). Picking up that the cat is both scared and defensively aggressive is insight. Think of someone who is very "good with animals" versus a young (unwise) child. The someone would know to be gentle and cautious where the child might just go and try to "pet the nice kitty". This insight into the animal's current state and probable actions is literally insight. Being able to capture or pickup the cat without being bitten or scratched would be animal handling. Taking care of it would be nature.
Working with the cat over time to gain it's trust, without being injured or injuring it, and knowing ways to make and keep it healthy again would be a combination insight, animal handling, and nature. Few others than the ranger have the tools so easily available to them to achieve this triad. They have the amount of skills needed, the right skills available to them, and the expertise to be the best at these kinds of situations with expertise. If one of their favored enemies (again, I hate that term "enemy", and it should be "creature") happens to be beasts then they have advantage on top of that to their nature checks! So that is what? Roughly a +14 at level 5?
Here's where your kind of falling down in our examples here Aaron. Insight is not just about spoken words. it's not just converstional. It can be all kinds of non-verbal queues even to do with somebody that your not actively interacting with. There is nothing about it that says you have to be the one engaging them in conversation or anything like that. That's a self imposed restriction your putting on it.
Insight works just as well on that jittery person down the Alley as it does the con artist or the bartender or the shopkeep that your speaking directly to. And it doesn't have to be because anything they said. That's just one limited aspect of how it works but hardly encompasses everything. Guards being Nervous is a standard example of using insight to find out something is wrong even without speaking to them. The Jittery person that you notice is another. These are the types of things that are so common they are practically cliche'd standard tropes in all forms of storytelling that we see all the time from tv programs, to movies, to books, to plays.
These things can all be done without direct interaction. They happen alot. as does things like animals or other things that people see running away in what seems a peaceful setting yet protagonists somehow know that something dangerous is happening just around the bend. Usually with an unrealistic dramatic reveal of all kinds of noise once they set their eyes on it that they should have been able to hear before they turned that corner. This is another example of Insight. Insight is an awareness about things going on that aren't necessarily directly perceptible. Insight in a lot of ways is the Skill for Hunches. Natural instincts. It's what turns that bead of sweat on somebodies forehead that you notice through Perception into That person being nervous rather than just a little hot. It translates seeing that person that is a bit eager into somebody that is scamming you as he tells you it's worthless and he can only offer you a little for it. otherwise that's just an eager person for any number of reasons that just don't matter to you.
I agree that it can be non-verbal, but literally every example you gave is something that would happen in a city - which isn’t a terrain option and therefore NE wouldn’t apply anyway. The only one that might happen in a terrain is an animal running away, which 9 times out of 10 is gonna be a perception check to see if you notice what spooked them and if you insisted on focusing on the animal rather than what ever they are reacting to (that 10th time) I am gonna call for nature or animal handling, whichever you want - not insight.
I gave them for a city to simply show that it was much more widely applicable than you were giving it in general. But here's the thing. Most of those city examples. Can easily be turned into nature examples with just a little change in Descriptive wording... Turn that jittery person in an alleyway to coming upon them on a trail for example. That Shopkeep could just as easily be a traveling Peddler that you ran into almost anywhere reasonable. Or might even be specific or known to certain area's with certain kinds of terrain that makes his business important.
And the Guards being Nervous exmple? That's not actually just a city example. That is an example that can litterally happen anywhere you run into guards. Whether it's the guards to an Enemy Camp. The Guards to a wilderness fort. The Guards that patrol a specific area or even the Guards of a castle. But it's easy to place in a city if we don't bother to think it through any further than our presumptions on where we are going to find guards without thinking of all the places we might truthfully run into them at.
Nor were all my examples strictly city examples. Because my mention of animals is most likely to happen in places of nature. But you chose to actually make it a city example.
Fateless , I think you were baited into agreeing to a bad Point while arguing something else.
Arronwho, The favored terrain bonus is not about where you are. Its about how its related to the terrain. It shouldn't make a difference where the person is (trail or town) what should make a difference is how much time that person is in said environments.
If a people group that lives in the a specific terrain (IE forest), they will all have the same natural fear response. The ranger would be better able to recognize that "fear face" even if the cause was something different. Its all about safety instincts. Only someone trained to adjust those survival instincts would be able to hide or alter them to new scenarios.
Countless times in fantasy media a Metaphor or simile is made About recognizing "The face of a person who's staring down a hungry tiger" or other some such. But instead of allowing it to work on everybody The game balances it out to only work on People or creatures from said terrain.
Here's where your kind of falling down in our examples here Aaron. Insight is not just about spoken words. it's not just converstional. It can be all kinds of non-verbal queues even to do with somebody that your not actively interacting with. There is nothing about it that says you have to be the one engaging them in conversation or anything like that. That's a self imposed restriction your putting on it.
Insight works just as well on that jittery person down the Alley as it does the con artist or the bartender or the shopkeep that your speaking directly to. And it doesn't have to be because anything they said. That's just one limited aspect of how it works but hardly encompasses everything. Guards being Nervous is a standard example of using insight to find out something is wrong even without speaking to them. The Jittery person that you notice is another. These are the types of things that are so common they are practically cliche'd standard tropes in all forms of storytelling that we see all the time from tv programs, to movies, to books, to plays.
These things can all be done without direct interaction. They happen alot. as does things like animals or other things that people see running away in what seems a peaceful setting yet protagonists somehow know that something dangerous is happening just around the bend. Usually with an unrealistic dramatic reveal of all kinds of noise once they set their eyes on it that they should have been able to hear before they turned that corner. This is another example of Insight. Insight is an awareness about things going on that aren't necessarily directly perceptible. Insight in a lot of ways is the Skill for Hunches. Natural instincts. It's what turns that bead of sweat on somebodies forehead that you notice through Perception into That person being nervous rather than just a little hot. It translates seeing that person that is a bit eager into somebody that is scamming you as he tells you it's worthless and he can only offer you a little for it. otherwise that's just an eager person for any number of reasons that just don't matter to you.
I agree that it can be non-verbal, but literally every example you gave is something that would happen in a city - which isn’t a terrain option and therefore NE wouldn’t apply anyway. The only one that might happen in a terrain is an animal running away, which 9 times out of 10 is gonna be a perception check to see if you notice what spooked them and if you insisted on focusing on the animal rather than what ever they are reacting to (that 10th time) I am gonna call for nature or animal handling, whichever you want - not insight.
I gave them for a city to simply show that it was much more widely applicable than you were giving it in general. But here's the thing. Most of those city examples. Can easily be turned into nature examples with just a little change in Descriptive wording... Turn that jittery person in an alleyway to coming upon them on a trail for example. That Shopkeep could just as easily be a traveling Peddler that you ran into almost anywhere reasonable. Or might even be specific or known to certain area's with certain kinds of terrain that makes his business important.
And the Guards being Nervous exmple? That's not actually just a city example. That is an example that can litterally happen anywhere you run into guards. Whether it's the guards to an Enemy Camp. The Guards to a wilderness fort. The Guards that patrol a specific area or even the Guards of a castle. But it's easy to place in a city if we don't bother to think it through any further than our presumptions on where we are going to find guards without thinking of all the places we might truthfully run into them at.
Nor were all my examples strictly city examples. Because my mention of animals is most likely to happen in places of nature. But you chose to actually make it a city example.
Fateless , I think you were baited into agreeing to a bad Point while arguing something else.
The favored terrain bonus is not about where you are. Its about how its related to the terrain. It shouldn't make a difference where the person is (trail or town) what should make a difference is how much time that person is in said environments.
If a people group that lives in the a specific terrain (IE forest), they will all have the same natural fear response. The ranger would be better able to recognize that "fear face" even if the cause was something different. Its all about safety instincts. Only someone trained to adjust those survival instincts would be able to hide or alter them to new scenarios.
Countless times in fantasy media a Metaphor or simile is made About recognizing "The face of a person who's staring down a hungry tiger" or other some such. But instead of allowing it to work on everybody The game balances it out to only work on People or creatures from said terrain.
I didn't agree to a bad point. What I did was use a point of compromise to reach one level of understanding before applying a second level on top of it. Until he agreed that it could be used for more than just conversations which is the stance he maintained earlier in the thread. Making it specifically about things that could happen in nature was pointless. What I used was simply a matter of progressive understanding.
Animals in a particular terrain are going to prioritize threats differently as you said. But the situation with the right insight can also change what the threats might be if you understand the environment that your in. You'll notice that he said all of my original post that he finally agreed that it wasn't just about spoken things and direct interactions that There is a progression of the situations that I gave as I pointed out in the post that your responding to. Some of them were in fact city based because of certain descriptors that I used, but those descriptors could easily be changed to change the environment and thus the context very easily as I stated.
But as i mentioned. the farther that you go through them. The less environmental descriptors I used but i changed the context in other ways by the time i got to the one about the animals. So there is no agreeing to a bad point on my end. There was merely an agreement on his part while stating his assumption that all of them had to take place in a city which actually helps me to identify and point out that assumption on his part to what i said which allows to go from the part he finally did agree to, to the larger topic at hand, Which in part is why insight can be applied in a greater variety and more places than Aaron was insisting that it had to be used. Now he can choose to attempt to ignore that but it is now officially part of the conversation at this point in an understandable progression from his previous stance to the more objective reality which allows the conversation to move forward instead of sit at the blind refusals that it had been up until that point.
Fateless, I'm sorry I wasn't clear. Arron slipped in a suggestion that FT bonus couldn't be used in the city. So he got you to switch the example location to outside the city boundaries confirming the idea that location matters (even though that wasn't your intent). It doesn't. Ranger knowledge is applicable and can be useful no matter where you are. This is the biggest mis-representation of ranger abilities people make. Only tracking abilities and some perception checks grow or shrink based on location of the ranger. Insight should never gain the bonus while standing in one spot and not apply while in another (assuming all other parts of the situation are the same). Its either related or its not. That's all I'm saying. I agree with the rest of your "Use case" scenarios.
I think that insight is something that can apply to a variety of situations, but in more or less all the examples thus far NE would not apply to them. If a player was hell bent on using insight on an animal check I would let them, but as for applying NE, it would have to be a case by case basis and I would have to hear a specific scenario, not just a generic “you see a shaking bunny”
I think that insight is something that can apply to a variety of situations, but in more or less all the examples thus far NE would not apply to them. If a player was hell bent on using insight on an animal check I would let them, but as for applying NE, it would have to be a case by case basis and I would have to hear a specific scenario, not just a generic “you see a shaking bunny”
You've been given such examples. Animals running from a threat in an Area is an Example of Natural Explorer being Applicable and it would be a matter of insight because it would be intuiting what is going on and why they might be running and even where they might be running from.
But here is the thing. Your ignoring specifics to make things general when they aren't necessarily general. Though There are certain situations that are general that would still apply that your also altering to things like "a shaking bunny" so that you can discount and ignore them. This is a poor tactic and a sign of your refusal to truely admit it can happen.
As for it being a Case by Case basis. Exactly. this is something that only applies some of the time. It is not going to apply to all uses. But it is going to apply to some uses. This is the Point. This is exactly what we've been trying to tell you all along and you've refused Repeatedly. We're not saying it works all of the Time. We are coloring it as anything but the black and white stance you've seemed to gripped tightly onto. We don't need it to work all the time and we don't want it to work all the time. We just want an understanding that there are situations where it does work. Some of those are more common than others.
Sometimes, As in Case By Case, is the actual Point.
Fateless, I'm sorry I wasn't clear. Arron slipped in a suggestion that FT bonus couldn't be used in the city. So he got you to switch the example location to outside the city boundaries confirming the idea that location matters (even though that wasn't your intent). It doesn't. Ranger knowledge is applicable and can be useful no matter where you are. This is the biggest mis-representation of ranger abilities people make. Only tracking abilities and some perception checks grow or shrink based on location of the ranger. Insight should never gain the bonus while standing in one spot and not apply while in another (assuming all other parts of the situation are the same). Its either related or its not. That's all I'm saying. I agree with the rest of your "Use case" scenarios.
Here's where your kind of getting caught up. Sometimes Where is Important. The argument is not and should not be that Where never has any meaning. Sometimes where you are is important. Sometimes however it's not about where you are but the things that those things can be attributed to such as in this case, Regions of Terrain.
We dont' want to go so far in the other direction that we disregard where you are as one of the variables that can make these skills work and something like Natural Explorer important and useful in a broader sense. Because Sometimes where you are affects it and that's easily understood. And we've never been argueing it isn't. But much like Bridging the Gap to gain understanding and acknowledgement that Insight can be used on much more than conversations directly with each other, That Natural Explorer through it's Favored Terrain has applicability outside of that Terrain as well and has wider applications for various situations. Which has often been the failure of Understanding when it comes to this ability.
Knowledge and understanding to some degree's is about layers. We've Established that Insight has Wider Use. We've then gone on to establish that it can be useful in regions other than the base assumption region of the city to show that it can be used in other Regions. This let's us do something To add onto that Further.
Let's take the Example of a Shadow Quickly descending on your caravan and is rapidly turning into something much larger than any normal bird can manage. Some of us can probably identify what this Shadow is through our Meta Knowledge. The Characters however don't have that luck. So they have some choices to make.
Perception and can probably tell them what it is.
Insight is going to be used to give the group understanding of why it's descending on them before it's too late.
Nature is probably the best one to understand details about what the thing that is descending is.
Natural Explorer can realistically be potentially added to all three of these rolls for the character making them.
Well First. Let's just outright say what that thing is for the knowledge of the group. This thing is a Roc. A bird technically classified as a Monstrosity because it is so much larger than most anything natural since it's full grown size rivals that of things like Ancient Dragons. It also tends to have a massive hunting range so it's considered native to several terrains though one obviously is it's home more than any other. And it's Dietary needs are such that even Giants and Whales can be prey to them while Cities, towns, and villages often are left unmolested because the tiny morsel's aren't worth the effort in places where they have plenty of ways to hide. Yet they will still have things like the remains of ships and Caravan's that they've carried off to make up their nests at times. Usually not caring about whatever treasures might have been inside so they just lay in their nests ignored.
With Knowing this. I think that this can give us something to build onto from the agreements that we've reached so far.
Fateless, I'm sorry I wasn't clear. Arron slipped in a suggestion that FT bonus couldn't be used in the city. So he got you to switch the example location to outside the city boundaries confirming the idea that location matters (even though that wasn't your intent). It doesn't. Ranger knowledge is applicable and can be useful no matter where you are. This is the biggest mis-representation of ranger abilities people make. Only tracking abilities and some perception checks grow or shrink based on location of the ranger. Insight should never gain the bonus while standing in one spot and not apply while in another (assuming all other parts of the situation are the same). Its either related or its not. That's all I'm saying. I agree with the rest of your "Use case" scenarios.
Here's where your kind of getting caught up. Sometimes Where is Important. The argument is not and should not be that Where never has any meaning. Sometimes where you are is important. Sometimes however it's not about where you are but the things that those things can be attributed to such as in this case, Regions of Terrain.
We dont' want to go so far in the other direction that we disregard where you are as one of the variables that can make these skills work and something like Natural Explorer important and useful in a broader sense. Because Sometimes where you are affects it and that's easily understood. And we've never been argueing it isn't. But much like Bridging the Gap to gain understanding and acknowledgement that Insight can be used on much more than conversations directly with each other, That Natural Explorer through it's Favored Terrain has applicability outside of that Terrain as well and has wider applications for various situations. Which has often been the failure of Understanding when it comes to this ability.
Knowledge and understanding to some degree's is about layers. We've Established that Insight has Wider Use. We've then gone on to establish that it can be useful in regions other than the base assumption region of the city to show that it can be used in other Regions. This let's us do something To add onto that Further.
Let's take the Example of a Shadow Quickly descending on your caravan and is rapidly turning into something much larger than any normal bird can manage. Some of us can probably identify what this Shadow is through our Meta Knowledge. The Characters however don't have that luck. So they have some choices to make.
Perception and can probably tell them what it is.
Insight is going to be used to give the group understanding of why it's descending on them before it's too late.
Nature is probably the best one to understand details about what the thing that is descending is.
Natural Explorer can realistically be potentially added to all three of these rolls for the character making them.
Well First. Let's just outright say what that thing is for the knowledge of the group. This thing is a Roc. A bird technically classified as a Monstrosity because it is so much larger than most anything natural since it's full grown size rivals that of things like Ancient Dragons. It also tends to have a massive hunting range so it's considered native to several terrains though one obviously is it's home more than any other. And it's Dietary needs are such that even Giants and Whales can be prey to them while Cities, towns, and villages often are left unmolested because the tiny morsel's aren't worth the effort in places where they have plenty of ways to hide. Yet they will still have things like the remains of ships and Caravan's that they've carried off to make up their nests at times. Usually not caring about whatever treasures might have been inside so they just lay in their nests ignored.
With Knowing this. I think that this can give us something to build onto from the agreements that we've reached so far.
Of those 3 examples your knowledge dose not change with terrain (so 2-3 out of 3). You specifically brought up that the Roc can cross multiple terrain. If you are from a terrain clearly "related to rocs" you should get nature and insight no matter if you are in your chosen terrain or not.
Perception is a funny one because it does become situational. The rangers knowledge of what a rock sounds like will always remain the same (potentially providing a bonus). The difference is whether or not the environment hinders vision. an example would be a desert where the sun is brighter and there are Heat mirages might interfere. another example would be an ocean that causes sounds to eco and carry in funny ways. Still this affects wisdom checks not intelligence ones.
I hold to my point Knowledge based skills are not location dependent. It sounds weird to assume the ability that makes you chose a location (aka terrain) is not dependent on your location but its true for at least half the benefit. This is why so many people have a hard time with NE. It sounds counter intuitive to use it correctly.
I think that insight is something that can apply to a variety of situations, but in more or less all the examples thus far NE would not apply to them. If a player was hell bent on using insight on an animal check I would let them, but as for applying NE, it would have to be a case by case basis and I would have to hear a specific scenario, not just a generic “you see a shaking bunny”
You've been given such examples. Animals running from a threat in an Area is an Example of Natural Explorer being Applicable and it would be a matter of insight because it would be intuiting what is going on and why they might be running and even where they might be running from.
But here is the thing. Your ignoring specifics to make things general when they aren't necessarily general. Though There are certain situations that are general that would still apply that your also altering to things like "a shaking bunny" so that you can discount and ignore them. This is a poor tactic and a sign of your refusal to truely admit it can happen.
As for it being a Case by Case basis. Exactly. this is something that only applies some of the time. It is not going to apply to all uses. But it is going to apply to some uses. This is the Point. This is exactly what we've been trying to tell you all along and you've refused Repeatedly. We're not saying it works all of the Time. We are coloring it as anything but the black and white stance you've seemed to gripped tightly onto. We don't need it to work all the time and we don't want it to work all the time. We just want an understanding that there are situations where it does work. Some of those are more common than others.
Sometimes, As in Case By Case, is the actual Point.
Frankly "Animals running from a threat" is just as vague as "a shaking bunny". Neither tells me anything. Also, "This is exactly what we've been trying to tell you all along and you've refused Repeatedly" isn't accurate. My stance the entire time has been that the application presented of NE is something that is situation, at best, and that you can't just say it applies everytime, but a lot of the push back has effectively been that "this applies to all of these skills everytime regardless of if you are in the environment or not".
Everytime a scenario is presented I say if I would or would not apply NE and yes, most of the time I disagree that NE should be allowed, but rather than explaining why my decision is wrong they simply say something like "Your just biased". No, I just like reasons and justification to be supported by something other than wanting something to work.
You want to argue that you can use insight on an animal running away, ok - fine. You want to say that you get NE on that check I am going to need a scenario, not an empty vague event. Something like...
You have been hired to investigate the possibility of a necromancer in the western woods outside of a town. Your group has been traveling the forest for three days. Each day the forest has grown more quiet than the last. As you push through into a small clearing you come across a [animal]. It looks frightened and is moving towards you, stopping as it sees you.
You ask "why is it afraid" I say - make an animal handling or nature check your call - "can I make an insight check instead?" sure go nuts. "can NE apply?" why?
Now, I already have an answer in mind and the justification, but before I put that I want you to tell me why in this instance you think NE should apply.
Insight - This is one of the social skills on the list but it does actually apply to Rangers in a few different ways since Favored Foes are a thing. But i want to note this applies to creatures in General. Not just Humanoids so things like Dragons and all those other things can be viable for this skill too. This Skill governs whether you can determine the true intentions of a creature, such as when searching out a lie or predicting someone’s next move. Doing so involves gleaning clues from body language, speech habits, and changes in mannerisms.
I am gonna toss this one out unless you can give me a scenario that makes sense as I can't think of any way that NE would apply to insight
And you would be mistaken to do so.
Rangers can act as a bulwark between civilization and the wilds, as well as a go-between for cultures on both sides of that bulwark. A ranger who has Forest for their Natural Explorer and picked two humanoids (elves and goblins) as their Favored Enemy could then expertly use Insight when dealing with any specific clans or tribes that live in the forest. They are familiar with these different peoples.
"Frankly "Animals running from a threat" is just as vague as "a shaking bunny". Neither tells me anything." That...is WHY you WOULD make an INSIGHT CHECK!!! So you would know something.
Lord almighty!
"You ask "why is it afraid" I say - make an animal handling or nature check your call - "can I make an insight check instead?" sure go nuts. "can NE apply?" why?" Because you aren't applying anything book related to the attempt to gleam it's mood or disposition, so no nature. And you are NOT handling anything! You are looking and observing, and then assessing the creature.
Fateless, I'm sorry I wasn't clear. Arron slipped in a suggestion that FT bonus couldn't be used in the city. So he got you to switch the example location to outside the city boundaries confirming the idea that location matters (even though that wasn't your intent). It doesn't. Ranger knowledge is applicable and can be useful no matter where you are. This is the biggest mis-representation of ranger abilities people make. Only tracking abilities and some perception checks grow or shrink based on location of the ranger. Insight should never gain the bonus while standing in one spot and not apply while in another (assuming all other parts of the situation are the same). Its either related or its not. That's all I'm saying. I agree with the rest of your "Use case" scenarios.
Fateless, I'm sorry I wasn't clear. Arron slipped in a suggestion that FT bonus couldn't be used in the city. So he got you to switch the example location to outside the city boundaries confirming the idea that location matters (even though that wasn't your intent). It doesn't. Ranger knowledge is applicable and can be useful no matter where you are. This is the biggest mis-representation of ranger abilities people make. Only tracking abilities and some perception checks grow or shrink based on location of the ranger. Insight should never gain the bonus while standing in one spot and not apply while in another (assuming all other parts of the situation are the same). Its either related or its not. That's all I'm saying. I agree with the rest of your "Use case" scenarios.
I didn't say NE can't be used in a city, I have already previously discussed ways it could be, but I did say that the insight examples he provided would not have any connection to NE
Insight - This is one of the social skills on the list but it does actually apply to Rangers in a few different ways since Favored Foes are a thing. But i want to note this applies to creatures in General. Not just Humanoids so things like Dragons and all those other things can be viable for this skill too. This Skill governs whether you can determine the true intentions of a creature, such as when searching out a lie or predicting someone’s next move. Doing so involves gleaning clues from body language, speech habits, and changes in mannerisms.
I am gonna toss this one out unless you can give me a scenario that makes sense as I can't think of any way that NE would apply to insight
And you would be mistaken to do so.
Rangers can act as a bulwark between civilization and the wilds, as well as a go-between for cultures on both sides of that bulwark. A ranger who has Forest for their Natural Explorer and picked two humanoids (elves and goblins) as their Favored Enemy could then expertly use Insight when dealing with any specific clans or tribes that live in the forest. They are familiar with these different peoples.
Once again though, the way you have phrased this you are applying a blanket condition. You have effectively said "if I am talking to a goblin in the forest I get both NE and FE no matter what the interaction is or what I asked, it just ALWAYS applies" and that isn't the case. ALL of these bonuses are situational. Sometimes they might apply, sometimes they might not and I am not sure the FE would even apply as directly interacting with them is not part of any bonus FE grants and seems to boil down to flavor text. That being said, I would probably let it apply in most interactions, but not all.
Insight - This is one of the social skills on the list but it does actually apply to Rangers in a few different ways since Favored Foes are a thing. But i want to note this applies to creatures in General. Not just Humanoids so things like Dragons and all those other things can be viable for this skill too. This Skill governs whether you can determine the true intentions of a creature, such as when searching out a lie or predicting someone’s next move. Doing so involves gleaning clues from body language, speech habits, and changes in mannerisms.
I am gonna toss this one out unless you can give me a scenario that makes sense as I can't think of any way that NE would apply to insight
And you would be mistaken to do so.
Rangers can act as a bulwark between civilization and the wilds, as well as a go-between for cultures on both sides of that bulwark. A ranger who has Forest for their Natural Explorer and picked two humanoids (elves and goblins) as their Favored Enemy could then expertly use Insight when dealing with any specific clans or tribes that live in the forest. They are familiar with these different peoples.
First, you are not using the word bulwark correctly, second I didn't say it was out without exception, I said I would need an example or scenario and so far I haven't heard a good one yet. I think we are getting close with the whole animal conversation, but we aren't there yet
"Frankly "Animals running from a threat" is just as vague as "a shaking bunny". Neither tells me anything." That...is WHY you WOULD make an INSIGHT CHECK!!! So you would know something.
Lord almighty!
"You ask "why is it afraid" I say - make an animal handling or nature check your call - "can I make an insight check instead?" sure go nuts. "can NE apply?" why?" Because you aren't applying anything book related to the attempt to gleam it's mood or disposition, so no nature. And you are NOT handling anything! You are looking and observing, and then assessing the creature.
Come ON, AaronWho. Who are just being difficult for difficult's sake at this point, surely (don't call me surely).
"The neither tells me anything" isn't a comment on what seeing a shaking bunny tells you, yeah, you can use an insight if you want, what I mean is that, that situation is just too vague to know if NE would apply to the check as is "animal running from a threat" - do you know what the threat is - is it visual or a sound you heard, do you just suspect something? The setup is too vague. I provided a scenario with enough info and left it for you to fill in the why NE should apply.
I just want to tell you both,good luck.We're all counting on you.... to come up with a reason
"You have been hired to investigate the possibility of a necromancer in the western woods outside of a town. Your group has been traveling the forest for three days. Each day the forest has grown more quiet than the last. As you push through into a small clearing you come across a [animal]. It looks frightened and is moving towards you, stopping as it sees you.
You ask "why is it afraid" I say - make an animal handling or nature check your call - "can I make an insight check instead?" sure go nuts. "can NE apply?" why?
Now, I already have an answer in mind and the justification, but before I put that I want you to tell me why in this instance you think NE should apply."
Alright. Keeping in mind that this is your scenario, and in no way would either nature or animal handling apply to the question asked in this situation, I'll bite.
I want to use insight with the natural explorer benefit added because I'm using my "proficiency" with the "insight" skill to "determine the true intentions" of this animal or "predict it's next move" by "gleaning clues from body language and changes in mannerisms" while using my "expertise" will all things "related" to my "favorite terrain" of "forest", including native inhabitants therein and intuit the animal's manner, mood, concerns, and base level state of mind from watching it's actions, movements, and mannerisms. Is it scared of me/us? Is is scared of something in a different direction? If so, which direction? Is it fearful, panicking, or on alert? Is it trying to run, or hide, or get to something or some place?
Everytime a scenario is presented I say if I would or would not apply NE and yes, most of the time I disagree that NE should be allowed, but rather than explaining why my decision is wrong they simply say something like "Your just biased". No, I just like reasons and justification to be supported by something other than wanting something to work.
You want to argue that you can use insight on an animal running away, ok - fine. You want to say that you get NE on that check I am going to need a scenario, not an empty vague event. Something like...
You have been hired to investigate the possibility of a necromancer in the western woods outside of a town. Your group has been traveling the forest for three days. Each day the forest has grown more quiet than the last. As you push through into a small clearing you come across a [animal]. It looks frightened and is moving towards you, stopping as it sees you.
You ask "why is it afraid" I say - make an animal handling or nature check your call - "can I make an insight check instead?" sure go nuts. "can NE apply?" why?
Now, I already have an answer in mind and the justification, but before I put that I want you to tell me why in this instance you think NE should apply.
Here is what I would say. I have studied the woods. I have practiced in the woods. This animal is common where I'm from. I know how this animal (from my terrain) acts when its about to charge or run or stay sill and hide. I know what its natural movements look like So I could better identify unnatural ones than other pcs. I know how this animal acts around common threats vs new and strange ones. I know how this animal acts when Alone or in a group. I can tell how they act if they have seen humanoids before or a fresh one with no human contact. Also I am so in-tune with nature that it lets me talk to said beast type on frequent occasion.
If i insight said animal I should get the FT bonus as to what its going to do next. I should be able to identify the direction of said "fear" and know if its a common one or an uncommon one. I may even be able to tell if its a large or small threat. I could know if its a fast or slow threat. I should know if its about to attack. depending on how sensitive the creature is to magic I may even know if its a magical threat.
Earlier in this thread I stated it is unfair to add extra layers to successful attempts at things. While adding rolls alters probability, It is not the only way layers of success/difficulty can be added. You create extra mental loopholes to jump through. It becomes a natural gate because some players will not notice or bother trying. You stated you already had an answer. This means you already think you know if it should apply or not. If "yes It is related" you should just give it to the player instead of making them justify it. You make the ranger pcs parse out their phases in an exact manner for the exact way you want. It's Just like an old text-based adventure where you knew the solution but couldn't put in the command the way the game wanted. This is a layer of difficulty you add not the game rules.
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Here's where your kind of falling down in our examples here Aaron. Insight is not just about spoken words. it's not just converstional. It can be all kinds of non-verbal queues even to do with somebody that your not actively interacting with. There is nothing about it that says you have to be the one engaging them in conversation or anything like that. That's a self imposed restriction your putting on it.
Insight works just as well on that jittery person down the Alley as it does the con artist or the bartender or the shopkeep that your speaking directly to. And it doesn't have to be because anything they said. That's just one limited aspect of how it works but hardly encompasses everything. Guards being Nervous is a standard example of using insight to find out something is wrong even without speaking to them. The Jittery person that you notice is another. These are the types of things that are so common they are practically cliche'd standard tropes in all forms of storytelling that we see all the time from tv programs, to movies, to books, to plays.
These things can all be done without direct interaction. They happen alot. as does things like animals or other things that people see running away in what seems a peaceful setting yet protagonists somehow know that something dangerous is happening just around the bend. Usually with an unrealistic dramatic reveal of all kinds of noise once they set their eyes on it that they should have been able to hear before they turned that corner. This is another example of Insight. Insight is an awareness about things going on that aren't necessarily directly perceptible. Insight in a lot of ways is the Skill for Hunches. Natural instincts. It's what turns that bead of sweat on somebodies forehead that you notice through Perception into That person being nervous rather than just a little hot. It translates seeing that person that is a bit eager into somebody that is scamming you as he tells you it's worthless and he can only offer you a little for it. otherwise that's just an eager person for any number of reasons that just don't matter to you.
I agree that it can be non-verbal, but literally every example you gave is something that would happen in a city - which isn’t a terrain option and therefore NE wouldn’t apply anyway. The only one that might happen in a terrain is an animal running away, which 9 times out of 10 is gonna be a perception check to see if you notice what spooked them and if you insisted on focusing on the animal rather than what ever they are reacting to (that 10th time) I am gonna call for nature or animal handling, whichever you want - not insight.
I gave them for a city to simply show that it was much more widely applicable than you were giving it in general. But here's the thing. Most of those city examples. Can easily be turned into nature examples with just a little change in Descriptive wording... Turn that jittery person in an alleyway to coming upon them on a trail for example. That Shopkeep could just as easily be a traveling Peddler that you ran into almost anywhere reasonable. Or might even be specific or known to certain area's with certain kinds of terrain that makes his business important.
And the Guards being Nervous exmple? That's not actually just a city example. That is an example that can litterally happen anywhere you run into guards. Whether it's the guards to an Enemy Camp. The Guards to a wilderness fort. The Guards that patrol a specific area or even the Guards of a castle. But it's easy to place in a city if we don't bother to think it through any further than our presumptions on where we are going to find guards without thinking of all the places we might truthfully run into them at.
Nor were all my examples strictly city examples. Because my mention of animals is most likely to happen in places of nature. But you chose to actually make it a city example.
Does everyone have a pet dog or cat?
Nature is knowing the difference between a dog and a cat. It's intelligence based. K9 and feline. Mating habits, diets, sounds made for what reasons, lifespan, etc. This skill has zero to do with actual interaction with real beasts. A robot can have a high nature skill. It's all in books and can be tested academically.
Animal handling is moving, manipulating, and otherwise controlling or influencing an animal's behavior, movement, or actions. It is wisdom based as it is a method of simple communication of what you do and how you do it and what impact it has on the animal's reaction or willingness to abide. It also covers physically "handling" an animal. Think of holding a snake or small bird, riding a horse, or interacting with a chimpanzee. Strength animal handling and dexterity animal handling are two of my favorite skills with different abilities!
Insight (in regards to animals) is intuiting the animal's mood, demeanor, possible motivations, and perhaps next actions. It is the opposite of animal handling, and together they form communication as best as can be achieved between a beast and humanoid. Insight is responsive to signs given off by a creature with or without a common form of language, not asserting your desire onto one.
The dog whisperer has good (wisdom) animal handling, but he has a very high insight in regards to dogs. A cowboy has very good (strength/dexterity) animal handling (riding a bronco) but may not need to have any insight into an animal's mood (which is generally angry). That would be the trainer's job.
Seeing a cat in an alley and knowing it is malnourished is nature, as would knowing it might be sick (maybe medicine). Picking up that the cat is both scared and defensively aggressive is insight. Think of someone who is very "good with animals" versus a young (unwise) child. The someone would know to be gentle and cautious where the child might just go and try to "pet the nice kitty". This insight into the animal's current state and probable actions is literally insight. Being able to capture or pickup the cat without being bitten or scratched would be animal handling. Taking care of it would be nature.
Working with the cat over time to gain it's trust, without being injured or injuring it, and knowing ways to make and keep it healthy again would be a combination insight, animal handling, and nature. Few others than the ranger have the tools so easily available to them to achieve this triad. They have the amount of skills needed, the right skills available to them, and the expertise to be the best at these kinds of situations with expertise. If one of their favored enemies (again, I hate that term "enemy", and it should be "creature") happens to be beasts then they have advantage on top of that to their nature checks! So that is what? Roughly a +14 at level 5?
Fateless , I think you were baited into agreeing to a bad Point while arguing something else.
Arronwho, The favored terrain bonus is not about where you are. Its about how its related to the terrain. It shouldn't make a difference where the person is (trail or town) what should make a difference is how much time that person is in said environments.
If a people group that lives in the a specific terrain (IE forest), they will all have the same natural fear response. The ranger would be better able to recognize that "fear face" even if the cause was something different. Its all about safety instincts. Only someone trained to adjust those survival instincts would be able to hide or alter them to new scenarios.
Countless times in fantasy media a Metaphor or simile is made About recognizing "The face of a person who's staring down a hungry tiger" or other some such. But instead of allowing it to work on everybody The game balances it out to only work on People or creatures from said terrain.
I didn't agree to a bad point. What I did was use a point of compromise to reach one level of understanding before applying a second level on top of it. Until he agreed that it could be used for more than just conversations which is the stance he maintained earlier in the thread. Making it specifically about things that could happen in nature was pointless. What I used was simply a matter of progressive understanding.
Animals in a particular terrain are going to prioritize threats differently as you said. But the situation with the right insight can also change what the threats might be if you understand the environment that your in. You'll notice that he said all of my original post that he finally agreed that it wasn't just about spoken things and direct interactions that There is a progression of the situations that I gave as I pointed out in the post that your responding to. Some of them were in fact city based because of certain descriptors that I used, but those descriptors could easily be changed to change the environment and thus the context very easily as I stated.
But as i mentioned. the farther that you go through them. The less environmental descriptors I used but i changed the context in other ways by the time i got to the one about the animals. So there is no agreeing to a bad point on my end. There was merely an agreement on his part while stating his assumption that all of them had to take place in a city which actually helps me to identify and point out that assumption on his part to what i said which allows to go from the part he finally did agree to, to the larger topic at hand, Which in part is why insight can be applied in a greater variety and more places than Aaron was insisting that it had to be used. Now he can choose to attempt to ignore that but it is now officially part of the conversation at this point in an understandable progression from his previous stance to the more objective reality which allows the conversation to move forward instead of sit at the blind refusals that it had been up until that point.
Fateless, I'm sorry I wasn't clear. Arron slipped in a suggestion that FT bonus couldn't be used in the city. So he got you to switch the example location to outside the city boundaries confirming the idea that location matters (even though that wasn't your intent). It doesn't. Ranger knowledge is applicable and can be useful no matter where you are. This is the biggest mis-representation of ranger abilities people make. Only tracking abilities and some perception checks grow or shrink based on location of the ranger. Insight should never gain the bonus while standing in one spot and not apply while in another (assuming all other parts of the situation are the same). Its either related or its not. That's all I'm saying. I agree with the rest of your "Use case" scenarios.
I think that insight is something that can apply to a variety of situations, but in more or less all the examples thus far NE would not apply to them. If a player was hell bent on using insight on an animal check I would let them, but as for applying NE, it would have to be a case by case basis and I would have to hear a specific scenario, not just a generic “you see a shaking bunny”
You've been given such examples. Animals running from a threat in an Area is an Example of Natural Explorer being Applicable and it would be a matter of insight because it would be intuiting what is going on and why they might be running and even where they might be running from.
But here is the thing. Your ignoring specifics to make things general when they aren't necessarily general. Though There are certain situations that are general that would still apply that your also altering to things like "a shaking bunny" so that you can discount and ignore them. This is a poor tactic and a sign of your refusal to truely admit it can happen.
As for it being a Case by Case basis. Exactly. this is something that only applies some of the time. It is not going to apply to all uses. But it is going to apply to some uses. This is the Point. This is exactly what we've been trying to tell you all along and you've refused Repeatedly. We're not saying it works all of the Time. We are coloring it as anything but the black and white stance you've seemed to gripped tightly onto. We don't need it to work all the time and we don't want it to work all the time. We just want an understanding that there are situations where it does work. Some of those are more common than others.
Sometimes, As in Case By Case, is the actual Point.
Here's where your kind of getting caught up. Sometimes Where is Important. The argument is not and should not be that Where never has any meaning. Sometimes where you are is important. Sometimes however it's not about where you are but the things that those things can be attributed to such as in this case, Regions of Terrain.
We dont' want to go so far in the other direction that we disregard where you are as one of the variables that can make these skills work and something like Natural Explorer important and useful in a broader sense. Because Sometimes where you are affects it and that's easily understood. And we've never been argueing it isn't. But much like Bridging the Gap to gain understanding and acknowledgement that Insight can be used on much more than conversations directly with each other, That Natural Explorer through it's Favored Terrain has applicability outside of that Terrain as well and has wider applications for various situations. Which has often been the failure of Understanding when it comes to this ability.
Knowledge and understanding to some degree's is about layers. We've Established that Insight has Wider Use. We've then gone on to establish that it can be useful in regions other than the base assumption region of the city to show that it can be used in other Regions. This let's us do something To add onto that Further.
Let's take the Example of a Shadow Quickly descending on your caravan and is rapidly turning into something much larger than any normal bird can manage. Some of us can probably identify what this Shadow is through our Meta Knowledge. The Characters however don't have that luck. So they have some choices to make.
Perception and can probably tell them what it is.
Insight is going to be used to give the group understanding of why it's descending on them before it's too late.
Nature is probably the best one to understand details about what the thing that is descending is.
Natural Explorer can realistically be potentially added to all three of these rolls for the character making them.
Well First. Let's just outright say what that thing is for the knowledge of the group. This thing is a Roc. A bird technically classified as a Monstrosity because it is so much larger than most anything natural since it's full grown size rivals that of things like Ancient Dragons. It also tends to have a massive hunting range so it's considered native to several terrains though one obviously is it's home more than any other. And it's Dietary needs are such that even Giants and Whales can be prey to them while Cities, towns, and villages often are left unmolested because the tiny morsel's aren't worth the effort in places where they have plenty of ways to hide. Yet they will still have things like the remains of ships and Caravan's that they've carried off to make up their nests at times. Usually not caring about whatever treasures might have been inside so they just lay in their nests ignored.
With Knowing this. I think that this can give us something to build onto from the agreements that we've reached so far.
Of those 3 examples your knowledge dose not change with terrain (so 2-3 out of 3). You specifically brought up that the Roc can cross multiple terrain. If you are from a terrain clearly "related to rocs" you should get nature and insight no matter if you are in your chosen terrain or not.
Perception is a funny one because it does become situational. The rangers knowledge of what a rock sounds like will always remain the same (potentially providing a bonus). The difference is whether or not the environment hinders vision. an example would be a desert where the sun is brighter and there are Heat mirages might interfere. another example would be an ocean that causes sounds to eco and carry in funny ways. Still this affects wisdom checks not intelligence ones.
I hold to my point Knowledge based skills are not location dependent. It sounds weird to assume the ability that makes you chose a location (aka terrain) is not dependent on your location but its true for at least half the benefit. This is why so many people have a hard time with NE. It sounds counter intuitive to use it correctly.
Frankly "Animals running from a threat" is just as vague as "a shaking bunny". Neither tells me anything. Also, "This is exactly what we've been trying to tell you all along and you've refused Repeatedly" isn't accurate. My stance the entire time has been that the application presented of NE is something that is situation, at best, and that you can't just say it applies everytime, but a lot of the push back has effectively been that "this applies to all of these skills everytime regardless of if you are in the environment or not".
Everytime a scenario is presented I say if I would or would not apply NE and yes, most of the time I disagree that NE should be allowed, but rather than explaining why my decision is wrong they simply say something like "Your just biased". No, I just like reasons and justification to be supported by something other than wanting something to work.
You want to argue that you can use insight on an animal running away, ok - fine. You want to say that you get NE on that check I am going to need a scenario, not an empty vague event.
Something like...
You have been hired to investigate the possibility of a necromancer in the western woods outside of a town. Your group has been traveling the forest for three days. Each day the forest has grown more quiet than the last. As you push through into a small clearing you come across a [animal]. It looks frightened and is moving towards you, stopping as it sees you.
You ask "why is it afraid" I say - make an animal handling or nature check your call - "can I make an insight check instead?" sure go nuts. "can NE apply?" why?
Now, I already have an answer in mind and the justification, but before I put that I want you to tell me why in this instance you think NE should apply.
And you would be mistaken to do so.
Rangers can act as a bulwark between civilization and the wilds, as well as a go-between for cultures on both sides of that bulwark. A ranger who has Forest for their Natural Explorer and picked two humanoids (elves and goblins) as their Favored Enemy could then expertly use Insight when dealing with any specific clans or tribes that live in the forest. They are familiar with these different peoples.
"Frankly "Animals running from a threat" is just as vague as "a shaking bunny". Neither tells me anything." That...is WHY you WOULD make an INSIGHT CHECK!!! So you would know something.
Lord almighty!
"You ask "why is it afraid" I say - make an animal handling or nature check your call - "can I make an insight check instead?" sure go nuts. "can NE apply?" why?" Because you aren't applying anything book related to the attempt to gleam it's mood or disposition, so no nature. And you are NOT handling anything! You are looking and observing, and then assessing the creature.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/insight
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/insight
Come ON, AaronWho. Who are just being difficult for difficult's sake at this point, surely (don't call me surely).
I didn't say NE can't be used in a city, I have already previously discussed ways it could be, but I did say that the insight examples he provided would not have any connection to NE
Once again though, the way you have phrased this you are applying a blanket condition. You have effectively said "if I am talking to a goblin in the forest I get both NE and FE no matter what the interaction is or what I asked, it just ALWAYS applies" and that isn't the case. ALL of these bonuses are situational. Sometimes they might apply, sometimes they might not and I am not sure the FE would even apply as directly interacting with them is not part of any bonus FE grants and seems to boil down to flavor text. That being said, I would probably let it apply in most interactions, but not all.
First, you are not using the word bulwark correctly, second I didn't say it was out without exception, I said I would need an example or scenario and so far I haven't heard a good one yet. I think we are getting close with the whole animal conversation, but we aren't there yet
"The neither tells me anything" isn't a comment on what seeing a shaking bunny tells you, yeah, you can use an insight if you want, what I mean is that, that situation is just too vague to know if NE would apply to the check as is "animal running from a threat" - do you know what the threat is - is it visual or a sound you heard, do you just suspect something? The setup is too vague. I provided a scenario with enough info and left it for you to fill in the why NE should apply.
I just want to tell you both,good luck.We're all counting on you.... to come up with a reason
"You have been hired to investigate the possibility of a necromancer in the western woods outside of a town. Your group has been traveling the forest for three days. Each day the forest has grown more quiet than the last. As you push through into a small clearing you come across a [animal]. It looks frightened and is moving towards you, stopping as it sees you.
You ask "why is it afraid" I say - make an animal handling or nature check your call - "can I make an insight check instead?" sure go nuts. "can NE apply?" why?
Now, I already have an answer in mind and the justification, but before I put that I want you to tell me why in this instance you think NE should apply."
Alright. Keeping in mind that this is your scenario, and in no way would either nature or animal handling apply to the question asked in this situation, I'll bite.
I want to use insight with the natural explorer benefit added because I'm using my "proficiency" with the "insight" skill to "determine the true intentions" of this animal or "predict it's next move" by "gleaning clues from body language and changes in mannerisms" while using my "expertise" will all things "related" to my "favorite terrain" of "forest", including native inhabitants therein and intuit the animal's manner, mood, concerns, and base level state of mind from watching it's actions, movements, and mannerisms. Is it scared of me/us? Is is scared of something in a different direction? If so, which direction? Is it fearful, panicking, or on alert? Is it trying to run, or hide, or get to something or some place?
Here is what I would say. I have studied the woods. I have practiced in the woods. This animal is common where I'm from. I know how this animal (from my terrain) acts when its about to charge or run or stay sill and hide. I know what its natural movements look like So I could better identify unnatural ones than other pcs. I know how this animal acts around common threats vs new and strange ones. I know how this animal acts when Alone or in a group. I can tell how they act if they have seen humanoids before or a fresh one with no human contact. Also I am so in-tune with nature that it lets me talk to said beast type on frequent occasion.
If i insight said animal I should get the FT bonus as to what its going to do next. I should be able to identify the direction of said "fear" and know if its a common one or an uncommon one. I may even be able to tell if its a large or small threat. I could know if its a fast or slow threat. I should know if its about to attack. depending on how sensitive the creature is to magic I may even know if its a magical threat.
Earlier in this thread I stated it is unfair to add extra layers to successful attempts at things. While adding rolls alters probability, It is not the only way layers of success/difficulty can be added. You create extra mental loopholes to jump through. It becomes a natural gate because some players will not notice or bother trying. You stated you already had an answer. This means you already think you know if it should apply or not. If "yes It is related" you should just give it to the player instead of making them justify it. You make the ranger pcs parse out their phases in an exact manner for the exact way you want. It's Just like an old text-based adventure where you knew the solution but couldn't put in the command the way the game wanted. This is a layer of difficulty you add not the game rules.