The problem with poisons is that we (the players) generally consider using poisons to be evil. This really isn’t so but we do generally treat using poison against others of “US” as evil. I’ve played a ranger that regularly used poisoned arrows against beasts and monsters including humanoids.at low levels the addition of poison is almost too much . He typically harvested poisons from animals he and the party had killed. 1D8 (longbow) + 1D6 (Hunters mark) + poison damage (even if it’s only half the time since animal poisons are mostly DC 10-12) is a lot at low to medium levels. yes he kept the poison arrows in a separate quiver. if you can make antitoxin and healing potions with a herbalism kit you should be able to create plant based poisons just as easily as well.
The problem with poisons is that we (the players) generally consider using poisons to be evil. This really isn’t so but we do generally treat using poison against others of “US” as evil. I’ve played a ranger that regularly used poisoned arrows against beasts and monsters including humanoids.at low levels the addition of poison is almost too much . He typically harvested poisons from animals he and the party had killed. 1D8 (longbow) + 1D6 (Hunters mark) + poison damage (even if it’s only half the time since animal poisons are mostly DC 10-12) is a lot at low to medium levels. yes he kept the poison arrows in a separate quiver. if you can make antitoxin and healing potions with a herbalism kit you should be able to create plant based poisons just as easily as well.
Here you go!
Poisoner's Kit. A poisoner's kit includes the vials, chemicals, and other equipment necessary for the creation of poisons. Proficiency with this kit lets you add your proficiency bonus to any ability checks you make to craft or use poisons.
Poison, Basic. You can use the poison in this vial to coat one slashing or piercing weapon or up to three pieces of ammunition. Applying the poison takes an action. A creature hit by the poisoned weapon or ammunition must make a DC 10 Constitution saving throw or take 1d4 poison damage. Once applied, the poison retains potency for 1 minute before drying.
Crafting and Harvesting Poison
During downtime between adventures, a character can use the crafting rules in the Player’s Handbook to create basic poison if the character has proficiency with a poisoner’s kit. At your discretion, the character can craft other kinds of poison. Not all poison ingredients are available for purchase, and tracking down certain ingredients might form the basis of an entire adventure.
A character can instead attempt to harvest poison from a poisonous creature, such as a snake, wyvern, or carrion crawler. The creature must be incapacitated or dead, and the harvesting requires 1d6 minutes followed by a DC 20 Intelligence (Nature) check. (Proficiency with the poisoner’s kit applies to this check if the character doesn’t have proficiency in Nature.) On a successful check, the character harvests enough poison for a single dose. On a failed check, the character is unable to extract any poison. If the character fails the check by 5 or more, the character is subjected to the creature’s poison.
On a personal note, I would allow double proficiency bonus if the creature was related to a ranger's favored terrain for the harvest check and I would allow advantage on the roll if the creature was one of the ranger's favored enemy creature types.
Now make those rules work in combat - when we look at the use of poisons today it’s not some freshly made semiliquid that’s we apply in the middle of combat taking time out between attacks to “freshen up”. It’s applied to the object well before combat and allowed to dry then dissolves into the wound in small but sufficient amounts. I don’t have a problem with the amounts of coverage although realistically if it covers say a short sword the same amount should cover more than 3 arrowheads or bolt heads (I can accept 1-3 spearheads). Similarly, why do I need a separate special kit and proficiency to make what is in fact an herbal concoction if I’m not “milking” some creature’s poison glands? I’m not arguing that that isn’t RAW, I’m suggesting that RAW isn’t realistic and needs changing in homebrew and future editions. As homebrew I use the poisoner’s kit For extraction from animals and the herbalism kit for production from plants. In either case having proficiency with the kit reduces the DC to 15 ( you can use the kit without proficiency with the 20 DC) and reduces the poisoned failure to a critical miss roll (1). I also allow a single dose to cover a short sword or similar sized weapon (2 doses for a long sword and 3 for a great sword) and 6 arrow/bolt heads.
The idea of stigma is particularly relevant to rangers and poisons. but in the end I think it makes interesting play. It encourages several concepts that are fun to experience.
risk vs reward
preparation and resource management.
understanding the world and engaging local law enforcement
knowing enemy resistances and immunities.
social encounters/ indirect combat
reminding players of enemy tactics and how ethics play into them.
too many things are culturally bad rather than practically bad. The most resisted damage type(poison) works on what are considered typical end of campaign baddies and iconic creatures. Beholders, vampires, mind flayers, giants, Most dragons. even most non-magic resistances are restricted to bludgeoning slashing or piecing but poison gets full damage.even immune creatures usually have some form of minion that isn't. )Example daemons with cultist minions.)
Poison crafting is actually way better documented than any other type. there are now dmg crafting rules, xanathars crafting rules and the new poisoner feat. Yes those also apply to antitoxin and such if all else fails there is lesser restoration (and now greater too) on the spell list.
a big part of the ranger kit is the ability to interact will less common parts of the game such as poisons and crafting.
Now make those rules work in combat - when we look at the use of poisons today it’s not some freshly made semiliquid that’s we apply in the middle of combat taking time out between attacks to “freshen up”. It’s applied to the object well before combat and allowed to dry then dissolves into the wound in small but sufficient amounts. I don’t have a problem with the amounts of coverage although realistically if it covers say a short sword the same amount should cover more than 3 arrowheads or bolt heads (I can accept 1-3 spearheads). Similarly, why do I need a separate special kit and proficiency to make what is in fact an herbal concoction if I’m not “milking” some creature’s poison glands? I’m not arguing that that isn’t RAW, I’m suggesting that RAW isn’t realistic and needs changing in homebrew and future editions. As homebrew I use the poisoner’s kit For extraction from animals and the herbalism kit for production from plants. In either case having proficiency with the kit reduces the DC to 15 ( you can use the kit without proficiency with the 20 DC) and reduces the poisoned failure to a critical miss roll (1). I also allow a single dose to cover a short sword or similar sized weapon (2 doses for a long sword and 3 for a great sword) and 6 arrow/bolt heads.
Most poisons last until they affect a creature or are washed off. too many people think the Poison, Basic (vial) unique rule applies to all poisons.
I agree, I suspect that the basic poison vial was set up that way to make poison use difficult because it’s generally seen as evil and in the RAW fairly overpowering especially at low levels - an average of 10 points+ a hit at level 1 is nasty.
Now make those rules work in combat - when we look at the use of poisons today it’s not some freshly made semiliquid that’s we apply in the middle of combat taking time out between attacks to “freshen up”. It’s applied to the object well before combat and allowed to dry then dissolves into the wound in small but sufficient amounts. I don’t have a problem with the amounts of coverage although realistically if it covers say a short sword the same amount should cover more than 3 arrowheads or bolt heads (I can accept 1-3 spearheads). Similarly, why do I need a separate special kit and proficiency to make what is in fact an herbal concoction if I’m not “milking” some creature’s poison glands? I’m not arguing that that isn’t RAW, I’m suggesting that RAW isn’t realistic and needs changing in homebrew and future editions. As homebrew I use the poisoner’s kit For extraction from animals and the herbalism kit for production from plants. In either case having proficiency with the kit reduces the DC to 15 ( you can use the kit without proficiency with the 20 DC) and reduces the poisoned failure to a critical miss roll (1). I also allow a single dose to cover a short sword or similar sized weapon (2 doses for a long sword and 3 for a great sword) and 6 arrow/bolt heads.
Most poisons last until they affect a creature or are washed off. too many people think the Poison, Basic (vial) unique rule applies to all poisons.
Yes! Basic poison lasts for an entire minute. Many attacks with said shortsword.
Using poison against intelligent foes is really a no win - you’ve set the rules and they will quickly return the favor if they can. Some ( like a dragon) can probably smell the poison for quite a ways as well. For things like dragons you might want to get creative - instead of normal poisons maybe psychoactive herbal compounds to send it on a trip and a half or deep into blissful sleep? I ran into a great little short story years ago where a ranger (mountain man) hears about a flame shooting winged gigantic beast and puts together a couple of hollow Sharps Buffalo rifle rounds filled with Jimson weed and peyote extracts. He shoots the dragon with them sending on a trip back to its home dimension. Then rubbing his horse’s nose comments he is going to have to file the horn down again soon. I wonder what he was riding. 😳🤪😁
What Ranger subclass archetypes are still missing from 5th-edition?
Off the top of my head, I can think of a plant-based Ranger. The Primeval Guardian would've filled this role, if it had made it beyond playtest. But as it stands, we're sorely missing a flora counterpart to the Beast Master's fauna.
we also don't really have a water based subclass, yes you can take swamps and coastal as favored terrain but the closest you can really get is a water Genasi ranger.
What Ranger subclass archetypes are still missing from 5th-edition?
Off the top of my head, I can think of a plant-based Ranger. The Primeval Guardian would've filled this role, if it had made it beyond playtest. But as it stands, we're sorely missing a flora counterpart to the Beast Master's fauna.
Anything else?
I definitely think there should be a trap master subclass. something that rewards positioning and traps. The thief rogue has bonus action caltrops and such which might fill some of the role but its not quite sufficient IMO. even then there should be a ranger flavored one.
I think it should be both combat oriented and ambush oriented to keep up with alot of 5e players styles. Maybe allow Hunters mark to work with caltrops or bear traps. it should give some of the trap spells Known for free or allow mundane versions(like a battle master maneuver or arcane archers custom arrows). possibly even free castings for specific spells each day.
What Ranger subclass archetypes are still missing from 5th-edition?
Off the top of my head, I can think of a plant-based Ranger. The Primeval Guardian would've filled this role, if it had made it beyond playtest. But as it stands, we're sorely missing a flora counterpart to the Beast Master's fauna.
Anything else?
I definitely think there should be a trap master subclass. something that rewards positioning and traps. The thief rogue has bonus action caltrops and such which might fill some of the role but its not quite sufficient IMO. even then there should be a ranger flavored one.
I think it should be both combat oriented and ambush oriented to keep up with alot of 5e players styles. Maybe allow Hunters mark to work with caltrops or bear traps. it should give some of the trap spells Known for free or allow mundane versions(like a battle master maneuver or arcane archers custom arrows). possibly even free castings for specific spells each day.
100% this.
I would love a ranger who could build snares/traps.
My hope it would be part of a larger crafting book.
What Ranger subclass archetypes are still missing from 5th-edition?
Off the top of my head, I can think of a plant-based Ranger. The Primeval Guardian would've filled this role, if it had made it beyond playtest. But as it stands, we're sorely missing a flora counterpart to the Beast Master's fauna.
Anything else?
3.5 had Urban Rangers and Arcane rangers, both of which I thought were really cool. I'm not sure you could do those with just a subclass though.
What Ranger subclass archetypes are still missing from 5th-edition?
Off the top of my head, I can think of a plant-based Ranger. The Primeval Guardian would've filled this role, if it had made it beyond playtest. But as it stands, we're sorely missing a flora counterpart to the Beast Master's fauna.
Anything else?
3.5 had Urban Rangers and Arcane rangers, both of which I thought were really cool. I'm not sure you could do those with just a subclass though.
The Tasha’s class feature variants are the urban ranger.
What Ranger subclass archetypes are still missing from 5th-edition?
Off the top of my head, I can think of a plant-based Ranger. The Primeval Guardian would've filled this role, if it had made it beyond playtest. But as it stands, we're sorely missing a flora counterpart to the Beast Master's fauna.
Anything else?
3.5 had Urban Rangers and Arcane rangers, both of which I thought were really cool. I'm not sure you could do those with just a subclass though.
There's actually a semi-official Ranger subclass in 5E called the Rat King, which is an Urban Ranger. Xanathar's Lost Notes to Everything Else had a homebrew Burghal Explorer is also an Urban Ranger, so it can be done.
As someone who's favorite element is Water, I fully agree with Wi1dBi11. I would love a water-themed Ranger. A seafaring explorer that sails the seven seas hunting down the greatest monsters from within the deep could be hella cool. And pair well with the Swashbuckler Rogue.
What Ranger subclass archetypes are still missing from 5th-edition?
Off the top of my head, I can think of a plant-based Ranger. The Primeval Guardian would've filled this role, if it had made it beyond playtest. But as it stands, we're sorely missing a flora counterpart to the Beast Master's fauna.
Anything else?
3.5 had Urban Rangers and Arcane rangers, both of which I thought were really cool. I'm not sure you could do those with just a subclass though.
There's actually a semi-official Ranger subclass in 5E called the Rat King, which is an Urban Ranger. Xanathar's Lost Notes to Everything Else had a homebrew Burghal Explorer is also an Urban Ranger, so it can be done.
As someone who's favorite element is Water, I fully agree with Wi1dBi11. I would love a water-themed Ranger. A seafaring explorer that sails the seven seas hunting down the greatest monsters from within the deep could be hella cool. And pair well with the Swashbuckler Rogue.
What Ranger subclass archetypes are still missing from 5th-edition?
Off the top of my head, I can think of a plant-based Ranger. The Primeval Guardian would've filled this role, if it had made it beyond playtest. But as it stands, we're sorely missing a flora counterpart to the Beast Master's fauna.
Anything else?
3.5 had Urban Rangers and Arcane rangers, both of which I thought were really cool. I'm not sure you could do those with just a subclass though.
I'm sorry but both of those are just too vague. everyone I've asked (who wants an urban ranger subclass) can't quantify what abilities an urban ranger should have that a regular ranger does. it made a bit more sense with the assumption(a wrong one) that ranger FE and NE were unusable in a urban environment but now we have "tasha's" that basically removes that problem. so I no longer see a need. can you describe a feature or something that fits?
same with arcane rangers? what would they do that other rangers couldn't or that arcane archer does?
What features and spells would folks suggest for plant based, water based, urban or arcane rangers? L3: an extra damage feature, a themed extra spell list, a sensory improvement: L7: a movement improvement: L11: an extra attack method, an improved extra damage feature: L15: a defensive improvement:
here are mine for a water based ranger: (obviously open for discussion) L3: A) Boiling Blade - each time you hit with a weapon the weapon does normal damage + 1D4 heat damage. If out of the water this damage has a chance to ignite dry flammable objects. B) Sonar - PB times / LR you are able to activate an extended hearing sense granting you the ability to echo locate and perceive objects and beings in even the murkiest and darkest waters by sounds you or they make and their echos. This ability lasts 1 hour + 1 hour for each spell level of spell used to extend its duration. ( if no spells are expended it lasts 1 hour) and has a radius of effect of 30’. C) sea farer’s spells: TBDL L7: water breathing - you gain the ability to caste the water breathing spell once per 24 hours. L11: Song of the sea- you gain the summon beasts spell and can cast it once/ long rest. This spell does not count against the spells you know and you may cast it using a regular spell slot. L15: Swirling Seas: PB times per long rest you are able to churn the waters around you so they deflect missiles and other weapons granting you a +2 to armor class for up to 1 minute as long as you maintain your concentration on this effect.
the preferred weapons of a marine ranger are the trident, crossbow and lance (harpoon).
I'm sorry but both of those are just too vague. everyone I've asked (who wants an urban ranger subclass) can't quantify what abilities an urban ranger should have that a regular ranger does. it made a bit more sense with the assumption(a wrong one) that ranger FE and NE were unusable in a urban environment but now we have "tasha's" that basically removes that problem. so I no longer see a need. can you describe a feature or something that fits?
same with arcane rangers? what would they do that other rangers couldn't or that arcane archer does?
What's missing for me is a strongly earth themed Ranger, likely with a tinge of construct theming, since those tend to be connected. The ultimate version of an Urban Ranger in comic books is the DC superhero John Hawksmoor, and his powerset is heavily based on controlling city objects, especially buildings and streets. Here's a picture of John wearing Tokyo like a suit of powered armor:
You'd want abilities like a Dao's Earth Glide, but for worked earth and stone. Ideally, the less wild and more settled a location is, the more powerful an Urban Ranger gets. E.g. you know how everyone expects Rangers to be good at wrangling animals and plants, and so of course they do get abilities (and spells) to do exactly that? An Urban Ranger should be good at wrangling buildings, doing things like asking a street what happened on it earlier today, and telling a lamp-post to go out because the Ranger needs darkness right now. Imagine Animate Objects dialed up way past 11. Or, actually, just imagine a Ranger equivalent of a Creation Bard.
So, example ability: just as Swarmkeepers get a fly speed, give Urban Rangers a burrow speed that doesn't leave a tunnel (like a Daro's Earth Glide) with tremorsense.
The problem with poisons is that we (the players) generally consider using poisons to be evil. This really isn’t so but we do generally treat using poison against others of “US” as evil. I’ve played a ranger that regularly used poisoned arrows against beasts and monsters including humanoids.at low levels the addition of poison is almost too much . He typically harvested poisons from animals he and the party had killed. 1D8 (longbow) + 1D6 (Hunters mark) + poison damage (even if it’s only half the time since animal poisons are mostly DC 10-12) is a lot at low to medium levels.
yes he kept the poison arrows in a separate quiver.
if you can make antitoxin and healing potions with a herbalism kit you should be able to create plant based poisons just as easily as well.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Here you go!
On a personal note, I would allow double proficiency bonus if the creature was related to a ranger's favored terrain for the harvest check and I would allow advantage on the roll if the creature was one of the ranger's favored enemy creature types.
Now make those rules work in combat - when we look at the use of poisons today it’s not some freshly made semiliquid that’s we apply in the middle of combat taking time out between attacks to “freshen up”. It’s applied to the object well before combat and allowed to dry then dissolves into the wound in small but sufficient amounts. I don’t have a problem with the amounts of coverage although realistically if it covers say a short sword the same amount should cover more than 3 arrowheads or bolt heads (I can accept 1-3 spearheads). Similarly, why do I need a separate special kit and proficiency to make what is in fact an herbal concoction if I’m not “milking” some creature’s poison glands? I’m not arguing that that isn’t RAW, I’m suggesting that RAW isn’t realistic and needs changing in homebrew and future editions.
As homebrew I use the poisoner’s kit For extraction from animals and the herbalism kit for production from plants. In either case having proficiency with the kit reduces the DC to 15 ( you can use the kit without proficiency with the 20 DC) and reduces the poisoned failure to a critical miss roll (1). I also allow a single dose to cover a short sword or similar sized weapon (2 doses for a long sword and 3 for a great sword) and 6 arrow/bolt heads.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
The idea of stigma is particularly relevant to rangers and poisons. but in the end I think it makes interesting play. It encourages several concepts that are fun to experience.
too many things are culturally bad rather than practically bad. The most resisted damage type(poison) works on what are considered typical end of campaign baddies and iconic creatures. Beholders, vampires, mind flayers, giants, Most dragons. even most non-magic resistances are restricted to bludgeoning slashing or piecing but poison gets full damage.even immune creatures usually have some form of minion that isn't. )Example daemons with cultist minions.)
Poison crafting is actually way better documented than any other type. there are now dmg crafting rules, xanathars crafting rules and the new poisoner feat. Yes those also apply to antitoxin and such if all else fails there is lesser restoration (and now greater too) on the spell list.
a big part of the ranger kit is the ability to interact will less common parts of the game such as poisons and crafting.
Most poisons last until they affect a creature or are washed off. too many people think the Poison, Basic (vial) unique rule applies to all poisons.
I agree, I suspect that the basic poison vial was set up that way to make poison use difficult because it’s generally seen as evil and in the RAW fairly overpowering especially at low levels - an average of 10 points+ a hit at level 1 is nasty.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Yes! Basic poison lasts for an entire minute. Many attacks with said shortsword.
Using poison against intelligent foes is really a no win - you’ve set the rules and they will quickly return the favor if they can. Some ( like a dragon) can probably smell the poison for quite a ways as well. For things like dragons you might want to get creative - instead of normal poisons maybe psychoactive herbal compounds to send it on a trip and a half or deep into blissful sleep? I ran into a great little short story years ago where a ranger (mountain man) hears about a flame shooting winged gigantic beast and puts together a couple of hollow Sharps Buffalo rifle rounds filled with Jimson weed and peyote extracts. He shoots the dragon with them sending on a trip back to its home dimension. Then rubbing his horse’s nose comments he is going to have to file the horn down again soon. I wonder what he was riding. 😳🤪😁
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
What Ranger subclass archetypes are still missing from 5th-edition?
Off the top of my head, I can think of a plant-based Ranger. The Primeval Guardian would've filled this role, if it had made it beyond playtest. But as it stands, we're sorely missing a flora counterpart to the Beast Master's fauna.
Anything else?
we also don't really have a water based subclass, yes you can take swamps and coastal as favored terrain but the closest you can really get is a water Genasi ranger.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I definitely think there should be a trap master subclass. something that rewards positioning and traps. The thief rogue has bonus action caltrops and such which might fill some of the role but its not quite sufficient IMO. even then there should be a ranger flavored one.
I think it should be both combat oriented and ambush oriented to keep up with alot of 5e players styles. Maybe allow Hunters mark to work with caltrops or bear traps. it should give some of the trap spells Known for free or allow mundane versions(like a battle master maneuver or arcane archers custom arrows). possibly even free castings for specific spells each day.
100% this.
I would love a ranger who could build snares/traps.
My hope it would be part of a larger crafting book.
3.5 had Urban Rangers and Arcane rangers, both of which I thought were really cool. I'm not sure you could do those with just a subclass though.
The Tasha’s class feature variants are the urban ranger.
There's actually a semi-official Ranger subclass in 5E called the Rat King, which is an Urban Ranger. Xanathar's Lost Notes to Everything Else had a homebrew Burghal Explorer is also an Urban Ranger, so it can be done.
As someone who's favorite element is Water, I fully agree with Wi1dBi11. I would love a water-themed Ranger. A seafaring explorer that sails the seven seas hunting down the greatest monsters from within the deep could be hella cool. And pair well with the Swashbuckler Rogue.
Open Water Ranger would be cool.
Trident + Shield
I'm sorry but both of those are just too vague. everyone I've asked (who wants an urban ranger subclass) can't quantify what abilities an urban ranger should have that a regular ranger does. it made a bit more sense with the assumption(a wrong one) that ranger FE and NE were unusable in a urban environment but now we have "tasha's" that basically removes that problem. so I no longer see a need. can you describe a feature or something that fits?
same with arcane rangers? what would they do that other rangers couldn't or that arcane archer does?
What features and spells would folks suggest for plant based, water based, urban or arcane rangers?
L3: an extra damage feature, a themed extra spell list, a sensory improvement:
L7: a movement improvement:
L11: an extra attack method, an improved extra damage feature:
L15: a defensive improvement:
here are mine for a water based ranger: (obviously open for discussion)
L3: A) Boiling Blade - each time you hit with a weapon the weapon does normal damage + 1D4 heat damage. If out of the water this damage has a chance to ignite dry flammable objects. B) Sonar - PB times / LR you are able to activate an extended hearing sense granting you the ability to echo locate and perceive objects and beings in even the murkiest and darkest waters by sounds you or they make and their echos. This ability lasts 1 hour + 1 hour for each spell level of spell used to extend its duration. ( if no spells are expended it lasts 1 hour) and has a radius of effect of 30’. C) sea farer’s spells: TBDL
L7: water breathing - you gain the ability to caste the water breathing spell once per 24 hours.
L11: Song of the sea- you gain the summon beasts spell and can cast it once/ long rest. This spell does not count against the spells you know and you may cast it using a regular spell slot.
L15: Swirling Seas: PB times per long rest you are able to churn the waters around you so they deflect missiles and other weapons granting you a +2 to armor class for up to 1 minute as long as you maintain your concentration on this effect.
the preferred weapons of a marine ranger are the trident, crossbow and lance (harpoon).
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
What's missing for me is a strongly earth themed Ranger, likely with a tinge of construct theming, since those tend to be connected. The ultimate version of an Urban Ranger in comic books is the DC superhero John Hawksmoor, and his powerset is heavily based on controlling city objects, especially buildings and streets. Here's a picture of John wearing Tokyo like a suit of powered armor:
You'd want abilities like a Dao's Earth Glide, but for worked earth and stone. Ideally, the less wild and more settled a location is, the more powerful an Urban Ranger gets. E.g. you know how everyone expects Rangers to be good at wrangling animals and plants, and so of course they do get abilities (and spells) to do exactly that? An Urban Ranger should be good at wrangling buildings, doing things like asking a street what happened on it earlier today, and telling a lamp-post to go out because the Ranger needs darkness right now. Imagine Animate Objects dialed up way past 11. Or, actually, just imagine a Ranger equivalent of a Creation Bard.
So, example ability: just as Swarmkeepers get a fly speed, give Urban Rangers a burrow speed that doesn't leave a tunnel (like a Daro's Earth Glide) with tremorsense.
So kind of like the City Domain Cleric from the old Modern Magic UA?