Makes sense the reasoning behind ditching Goodberry. Imagine PwT being extended to your entire party + the 8 wolf pack conjured by your Druid ally.
I agree sometimes I wished Rangers had more known spells. They don’t even needed to be prepared casters. If we followed same logic as Paladins, half level + WIS mod, a level 8 Ranger would have average 6 to 7 known spells. More room to accommodate Goodberry, Aid and other overall utility options.
With the Tasha's subclasses and Primal Awareness Rangers can have a ton of spells known. For example a 9th level Fey Wanderer has 12 spells known (3 from Primal Awareness, 3 from Fey Wanderer and 6 they choose). A 9th level basic sorcerer only has 10.
I used AE all the time in the most recent game I played with a Ranger. I would argue it wasmy second most important 1st level spell (after goodberry) and probably 4th overall not counting spells I got through feats.
I won't argue with the logic. But if you are doing this, do you make a caster have a feather in their hand to cast feather fall?
Yes. Or a spellcasting focus.
Realistically what is the diffrence between a focus and a component pouch? there are few spots where the diffrence actually matters. Mostly weapons or shields that can be used as a focus I think. so many of the ranger spells just require weapons as the component anyway.
I won't argue with the logic. But if you are doing this, do you make a caster have a feather in their hand to cast feather fall?
Yes. Or a spellcasting focus.
Realistically what is the diffrence between a focus and a component pouch? there are few spots where the diffrence actually matters. Mostly weapons or shields that can be used as a focus I think. so many of the ranger spells just require weapons as the component anyway.
For me, a spell component pouch would require even more time to use when casting a spell then it would to use a hand on a weapon while fighting with it. As a DM, I don’t allow component pouches for reaction cast spells
This is all for the sake of game balance and avoiding player character singularity.
It’s in the rules. It matters. And has been further reinforced and supported with Tasha’s via the artificer.
Ranger spell components are designed the way they are for a reason. Clerics and paladins able to use their holy symbol on a shield was designed for a reason.
I was planning to run a Dragonborn Conquest Paladin in my next campaign and friend already showed interest to run a Ranger. I will ask him to take a look at Fey Wanderer.
I won't argue with the logic. But if you are doing this, do you make a caster have a feather in their hand to cast feather fall?
Yes. Or a spellcasting focus.
Realistically what is the diffrence between a focus and a component pouch? there are few spots where the diffrence actually matters. Mostly weapons or shields that can be used as a focus I think. so many of the ranger spells just require weapons as the component anyway.
Not as many as you would think are weapons/equipment something around three from the player's handbook (and one afterward) and then the design focused changed a bit in post player's handbooks ranger spell are V,S or V with the especision of the newer summons that require a expensive material component.
I finished a full campaign and have played a Ranger twice now, 1-16.
Hunter's Mark is great... for the first five or so levels. After a while it falls off and doesn't hold up towards the end game. Rangers get a lot of strong concentration spells, especially the Horizon Walker. Once I had access to Haste, I basically stopped using Hunter's Mark entirely. Whether I was Hasting myself or an Ally, I usually kept that spell up. PwT also got used a TON in our campaign and was the saving grace every time I busted it out. But the late game spell I ended up rely on the most was Guardian of Nature to give my ranged attacks advantage and make use of my Sharpshooter feat on every attack for close to a near 10-20 extra damage a turn. Turn bosses into chunks or give them high concentration DCs.
Honestly Planar Warrior scaled better and it only goes up to about 2d8 once you hit level 11, but the consistent Force damage scaled so well.
I’ll always stump for Zephyrs Strike. No AoO while you’re concentrating, and a ribbon effect as well that doesn’t end the spell when it’s used? I’ll use that constantly whether I’m melee or ranged, because my DM plus the monsters pretty smart and always goes for the “squishy ranged” ones.
I can’t say Ensnaring or Entangle ever hit my list *unless* I have high wisdom. It just doesn’t scale well. But if I take Druidic Warrior… definitely have those on the list.
My current one is a Druidic Warrior and high Concentration Saves, which gets me into Heroism (Fey Touched), and Guardian of Nature/Steel Wind Strike at the higher levels (great in combination by the way!)
WIS 14: Fog Cloud WIS 16: Ensnaring Strike or Entangle
I see a lot of value in Entangle for Beastmasters. You can restrain some foes and command your companion to attack in the first round and then follow-up with full attack routine from second round onwards.
Other Rangers, specially archers, I usually go with Ensnaring Strike for better bonus action economy. STR is a bad save to target, but you can predict who are the “agile” enemies and try to look for more effectiveness in that.
I really want to love ensnaring strike. When it lands it’s super fun! It is such a tough spell to make happen for me it seems. I with it did a little something more. Maybe the spell damage in the initial bit as well, or no advantage in the saving throw for large creatures. It’s the ranger’s save-or-suck spell, which they don’t have many of.
Fog cloud is so nice! Stealth, anti mage (the most devastating spells require the caster to see the target, same with beholder eye rays!), anti AoO, any time the tables are not in the party’s favor, fog cloud ftw.
I really want to love ensnaring strike. When it lands it’s super fun! It is such a tough spell to make happen for me it seems. I with it did a little something more. Maybe the spell damage in the initial bit as well, or no advantage in the saving throw for large creatures. It’s the ranger’s save-or-suck spell, which they don’t have many of
I hear you! The last Ranger I played was fighting three adult dragons (Green, White and Blue) from a flying castle and kept using ensnaring strike. The idea was to restrain them so they would plummet to their death miles below. They got advantage for being large and have a high strength to boot so it never landed. I burned through all my first and most of my 2nd level slots trying to land it nd never did.
How epic it would have been if they failed a save.
I get that restraining a enemy is huge, and is basically a 1st level spell slot, but after about level 7 enemies either have resistance to magic or are large or bigger much of the time. (sigh)
Dragons are tough. Maybe Entangle would be more effective, but I don’t know. Dragons also have Blindsense, so even Fog Cloud would not help at all as well. Heheh, this is a scenario where Hunter’s Mark would shine for sure.
That is the main reason Ranger is my favorite class. Different from full casters who are totally lost when fighting magic resistant creatures or Paladins who are screwed against flying monsters, Rangers always have the reliable choice to get their crossbow and shoot the hell out of their enemies.
Dragons are tough. Maybe Entangle would be more effective, but I don’t know. Dragons also have Blindsense, so even Fog Cloud would not help at all as well. Heheh, this is a scenario where Hunter’s Mark would shine for sure.
That is the main reason Ranger is my favorite class. Different from full casters who are totally lost when fighting magic resistant creatures or Paladins who are screwed against flying monsters, Rangers always have the reliable choice to get their crossbow and shoot the hell out of their enemies.
They were flying, so I don't think entangle would work as there is no ground to sprout from.
Also I was firing arrows at them the entire time, so I was still heavily damaging them, even though the ensnaring strikes were saved against repeatedly Using actions would have meant I would not have been damaging them at all.
I used to really think that hunter's mark was mostly mandatory, but playing a warlock a bit with a very similar spell in Hex, I found myself often wanting to do other things with that slot, or with that bonus action. Now, I tend to view it more as a fine low level spell, but generally later on, I am looking to do a bit more with my resources.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I found Goodberry to be incredible useful, before a long rest at night I use all my remaining spell slots to cast it. As the last for 24 hours the party uses them for healing after any fights I have mix feelings about Hunters mark. Against BBEG I like it but I been in many fights where I didn't really need it
I used to really think that hunter's mark was mostly mandatory, but playing a warlock a bit with a very similar spell in Hex, I found myself often wanting to do other things with that slot, or with that bonus action. Now, I tend to view it more as a fine low level spell, but generally later on, I am looking to do a bit more with my resources.
I think Hex is a great spell, as some have pointed out the material and somatic component make it somewhat more difficult for a two-weapon fighter or sword and board, but overall it is a much better spell than Hunters Mark. Hex does not scale very well though, so on a warlock where you lose 1st level slots at 3rd level it can be a downer.
Hex has a lot of utility out of combat, especially at higher levels and the disadvantage in combat can be combined with shove, grapple or hide actions.
Hunters Mark is not worth getting in my opinion, but Hex is something I would seriously consider picking up with Fey Touched on a Ranger, or really any character who I want to boost an odd Wisdom, Intelligence or Charisma on.
Before moving ahead, I’m not necessarily saying that you shouldn’t pick Hunter’s Mark. It’s an ok spell, but it was wrongly sold as the Ranger bread & butter, their only hope to increase damage — and this is a big misconception. The thing is that once you factor your to hit chance (let’s say an average of 65%), one extra d6 of damage represents something like ~1.5 in DPR increase. This is really poor for a level 1 spell slot who also compromises your bonus action.
But once you take a careful look into Rangers spell list, you can find premium choices usually drawn from the Druid list with some exclusive hidden gems, specially after TCoE improvements.
So let’s deep dive into it a little bit. A small sidenote: you’ll probably spend most of your Rangers career between low and mid tiers. It is already a common ground that Conjure Animals is a level 3 DPR king spell, so I’ll focus on spells from levels 1 and 2, and then I’ll give you my recommended selection assuming a level 8 Ranger.
Level 1: - Absorb Elements * - Ensnaring Strike - Entangle - Fog Cloud - Goodberry *
Level 2: - Aid - Pass Without a Trace * - Silence - Spike Growth
As a level 8 Ranger: - You know only five spells (shame on you WotC) - You have four level 1 and three level 2 spell slots
* Must have spells: Absorb Elements, Goodberry, Pass Without a Trace. These spells are ALWAYS in my list regardless the build, since they are universally useful and versatile.
- Absorb Elements coupled with DEX save prof can turn dragons breaths and fireballs into warm breezes.
- Goodberry is one of the most effective rest-cast spells thanks to their 24h duration and can nearly turn healing potions obsolete if used in the right way. Huge potential if your party has easy access to minion actions like Familiars, Unseen Servants, Tiny Servants and etc.
- Pass Without a Trace is the most underrated spell in the game. Just read the Surprise rules. Then remember all the time you have tried to sneak in and ambush your enemies, but your pesky Paladin ruined any Stealth check attempt. Now your entire group has a +10 bonus. Read the Surprise rules again. Yes, it’s exactly that. This spell has the potential to give you an entire extra round. It’s too good to be true. And all those years we were thinking Hunters Mark was the Ranger signature spell -- Pass Without a Trace should earn this position by a mile! And they say Rogues are the best ambushers.
Other level 1 options: - If you manage to have WIS 16 or some sort of spell DC booster (like a Moon Sickle), go with Ensnaring Strike or Entangle. I usually go Ensnaring Strike if I’m playing an archer or Entangle if I’m playing melee or Beastmaster. Restraining is a powerful condition and although Strength is not the best save to target, you can still lockdown agile enemies effectively or try a luck shot against melee brutes. Either way, both spells can turn the tides of battle for sure.
- Otherwise go with Fog Cloud, which a is great spell to avoid ambushes, setup retreats and equalize unfavorable encounters (like against creatures with Pack Tactics). Fog Cloud once avoided a certain TPK against a pair of Basilisks my party faced. If you manage to get some sort of Blindsight, like multiclassing into Fighter and getting the Blind Fighting style, then Fog Cloud becomes a huge tactical advantage in the shape of the infamous Warlock combo of Devil’s Sight + Darkness. Cast Fog Cloud behind yourself, usually far from enemies, stay 10 feet inside to leverage always-on advantage and instruct your non-melee allies to do the same. They can go out the fog, do their things that require sight and then step back looking for protection. If you have seasoned spellcasters, they can even use your Fog Cloud to avoid being counterspelled
Other level 2 options: - If your party doesn’t have a dedicated healer, I usually go with Aid, which is a great rest-cast spell and can also function as a poor man Healing Word in dangerous situation.
- If you face lots of spellcasters, Silence is a must have. It’s important to say that this spell is only available to Bards, Clerics, Rangers and some bad sub-classes of Druid and Warlock. Full casters usually have much better options to concentrate on, like Hypnotic Pattern or Spirits Guardian, Rangers don’t. So you are the most suited class to make use of this spell and completely neutralize your DMs main villain easily, just make sure to cast it at least 65 ft away from the target to avoid Counterspell.
- Spike Growth is a staple spell and can be devastating with teamwork dedication. Any sort of forced movement is a huge force multiplier alongside this spell. Warlocks with Repelling Blast, Thorn Whipers, Telekinetic, etc.
Well, sorry for the long thread. I hope this could be useful to some of you. Once again, I don’t think Hunter’s Mark is a bad spell. I can see some value from a level 5+ Gloomstalker attacking 3x with Dread Ambusher. But assume it’s the only way to go and ignore all other option is a lazy approach, to say in better terms.
Merry Xmas to all!
Has anyone else got anything to add that's actually relevant to this initial post?
He's not wrong. There's nothing else to say. Hunter's Mark isn't that good.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
With the Tasha's subclasses and Primal Awareness Rangers can have a ton of spells known. For example a 9th level Fey Wanderer has 12 spells known (3 from Primal Awareness, 3 from Fey Wanderer and 6 they choose). A 9th level basic sorcerer only has 10.
Omg... :)
LOL!
It seems terrible, I’m sure. But it’s not really a big deal.
I was planning to run a Dragonborn Conquest Paladin in my next campaign and friend already showed interest to run a Ranger. I will ask him to take a look at Fey Wanderer.
We will be the Fear Dynamite duo.
Not as many as you would think are weapons/equipment something around three from the player's handbook (and one afterward) and then the design focused changed a bit in post player's handbooks ranger spell are V,S or V with the especision of the newer summons that require a expensive material component.
I finished a full campaign and have played a Ranger twice now, 1-16.
Hunter's Mark is great... for the first five or so levels. After a while it falls off and doesn't hold up towards the end game. Rangers get a lot of strong concentration spells, especially the Horizon Walker. Once I had access to Haste, I basically stopped using Hunter's Mark entirely. Whether I was Hasting myself or an Ally, I usually kept that spell up. PwT also got used a TON in our campaign and was the saving grace every time I busted it out. But the late game spell I ended up rely on the most was Guardian of Nature to give my ranged attacks advantage and make use of my Sharpshooter feat on every attack for close to a near 10-20 extra damage a turn. Turn bosses into chunks or give them high concentration DCs.
Honestly Planar Warrior scaled better and it only goes up to about 2d8 once you hit level 11, but the consistent Force damage scaled so well.
I’ll always stump for Zephyrs Strike. No AoO while you’re concentrating, and a ribbon effect as well that doesn’t end the spell when it’s used? I’ll use that constantly whether I’m melee or ranged, because my DM plus the monsters pretty smart and always goes for the “squishy ranged” ones.
I can’t say Ensnaring or Entangle ever hit my list *unless* I have high wisdom. It just doesn’t scale well. But if I take Druidic Warrior… definitely have those on the list.
My current one is a Druidic Warrior and high Concentration Saves, which gets me into Heroism (Fey Touched), and Guardian of Nature/Steel Wind Strike at the higher levels (great in combination by the way!)
My general rule of thumb for level 1 spells:
WIS 14: Fog Cloud
WIS 16: Ensnaring Strike or Entangle
I see a lot of value in Entangle for Beastmasters. You can restrain some foes and command your companion to attack in the first round and then follow-up with full attack routine from second round onwards.
Other Rangers, specially archers, I usually go with Ensnaring Strike for better bonus action economy. STR is a bad save to target, but you can predict who are the “agile” enemies and try to look for more effectiveness in that.
I really want to love ensnaring strike. When it lands it’s super fun! It is such a tough spell to make happen for me it seems. I with it did a little something more. Maybe the spell damage in the initial bit as well, or no advantage in the saving throw for large creatures. It’s the ranger’s save-or-suck spell, which they don’t have many of.
Fog cloud is so nice! Stealth, anti mage (the most devastating spells require the caster to see the target, same with beholder eye rays!), anti AoO, any time the tables are not in the party’s favor, fog cloud ftw.
I hear you! The last Ranger I played was fighting three adult dragons (Green, White and Blue) from a flying castle and kept using ensnaring strike. The idea was to restrain them so they would plummet to their death miles below. They got advantage for being large and have a high strength to boot so it never landed. I burned through all my first and most of my 2nd level slots trying to land it nd never did.
How epic it would have been if they failed a save.
I get that restraining a enemy is huge, and is basically a 1st level spell slot, but after about level 7 enemies either have resistance to magic or are large or bigger much of the time. (sigh)
Dragons are tough. Maybe Entangle would be more effective, but I don’t know. Dragons also have Blindsense, so even Fog Cloud would not help at all as well. Heheh, this is a scenario where Hunter’s Mark would shine for sure.
That is the main reason Ranger is my favorite class. Different from full casters who are totally lost when fighting magic resistant creatures or Paladins who are screwed against flying monsters, Rangers always have the reliable choice to get their crossbow and shoot the hell out of their enemies.
They were flying, so I don't think entangle would work as there is no ground to sprout from.
Also I was firing arrows at them the entire time, so I was still heavily damaging them, even though the ensnaring strikes were saved against repeatedly Using actions would have meant I would not have been damaging them at all.
I used to really think that hunter's mark was mostly mandatory, but playing a warlock a bit with a very similar spell in Hex, I found myself often wanting to do other things with that slot, or with that bonus action. Now, I tend to view it more as a fine low level spell, but generally later on, I am looking to do a bit more with my resources.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I found Goodberry to be incredible useful, before a long rest at night I use all my remaining spell slots to cast it. As the last for 24 hours the party uses them for healing after any fights I have mix feelings about Hunters mark. Against BBEG I like it but I been in many fights where I didn't really need it
I think Hex is a great spell, as some have pointed out the material and somatic component make it somewhat more difficult for a two-weapon fighter or sword and board, but overall it is a much better spell than Hunters Mark. Hex does not scale very well though, so on a warlock where you lose 1st level slots at 3rd level it can be a downer.
Hex has a lot of utility out of combat, especially at higher levels and the disadvantage in combat can be combined with shove, grapple or hide actions.
Hunters Mark is not worth getting in my opinion, but Hex is something I would seriously consider picking up with Fey Touched on a Ranger, or really any character who I want to boost an odd Wisdom, Intelligence or Charisma on.
Has anyone else got anything to add that's actually relevant to this initial post?
Level 8 Gloomstalker ranger, with 9 levels echo knight. (wisdom 18)
Do I go ensnaring /entangle; or zephyr strike; or stick with hunters mark?
He's not wrong. There's nothing else to say. Hunter's Mark isn't that good.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I don't know. From only a combat damage perspective, an additional 2d6 per round is pretty good from levels 5-10. Cheap too.