The fact that you equate an optional spell with core class features says a lot about how important the spell is to ranger.... That's poor design if you have to take a spell to make the class feel complete....
its not a core feature but it is a choice the design team put in.
do you limit sharpshooter and great weapon master too? they cause more player discrepancy than any minion spells ever could.
The fact that you equate an optional spell with core class features says a lot about how important the spell is to ranger.... That's poor design if you have to take a spell to make the class feel complete....
its not a core feature but it is a choice the design team put in.
do you limit sharpshooter and great weapon master too? they cause more player discrepancy than any minion spells ever could.
They don't ... You can simply put in one enemy with AC 18+ and they don't matter.
Plus a ranger can use sharpshooter AND this spell so your point is completely moot.
Also this is "Whataboutism" and it's a logical fallacy
i thought you said the utility didn't matter(in the other thread)? did you change your mind?
Utility doesn't matter if that's all the spell offers in comparison to Conjure Animals. Conjure offers both damage and utility. The damage is very much top tier and the utility is also very good
It matters here then because it's extremely hard for a pure utility spell to overcome Conjure Animals because dead is almost always better than debuff..... It's just that this spell gives you both and it's yet another reason it's poorly balanced.
This is a honest question. At level 9, and especially beyond that, have you not found that non-magical damage (no matter how much damage), mediocre armor class, and hit points of 11 or less makes this spell more balanced than you’re making it out to be? 8 wolves does “math” out hard, but they are doing non-magical damage, have basically zero hit points, and their knockdown effect DC is almost nothing for all but the least threatening adversaries. Compared to several other spells available to other completely different classes, conjure animals could be considered wimpy. I’m looking at you, animate objects.
This is a honest question. At level 9, and especially beyond that, have you not found that non-magical damage (no matter how much damage), mediocre armor class, and hit points of 11 or less makes this spell more balanced than you’re making it out to be? 8 wolves does “math” out hard, but they are doing non-magical damage, have basically zero hit points, and their knockdown effect DC is almost nothing for all but the least threatening adversaries. Compared to several other spells available to other completely different classes, conjure animals could be considered wimpy. I’m looking at you, animate objects.
Only 25% of creatures have resistance to non-magical damage.
And half of a ton is still a half-ton. You get to control the creatures for free so it's action economy free damage on top of your normal turn.
So no that's not really a factor imo... It's less effective but it's still far and away the most effective option you have 90% of the time.
The 10% comes in when spacing might not let you get them all on the big bad of the encounter.... But even then if you get blood hawks it's mostly worth it.
Overall it's hard to find a commonly occuring scenario where conjure animals isn't your outright best option.
That plus the fact the spell does way more damage than other 3rd level options, causes turn bloat makes it one of the most unbalanced spells in the edition
its not a core feature but it is a choice the design team put in.
do you limit sharpshooter and great weapon master too? they cause more player discrepancy than any minion spells ever could.
They don't ... You can simply put in one enemy with AC 18+ and they don't matter.
Plus a ranger can use sharpshooter AND this spell so your point is completely moot.
Also this is "Whataboutism" and it's a logical fallacy
there are so many skills and abilities that also make high ac moot.
Also, a dm could just add a ranger with hail of thorns and conjure volley and completely make "summoners" moot.
We have also discussed several options for making tracking lots of saves, damage rolls, hp tracking, positioning and status effects moot.
Not even close in damage/utility so it's not a good comparison at all...
That's the problem. No other spell gets close
i thought you said the utility didn't matter(in the other thread)? did you change your mind?
Utility doesn't matter if that's all the spell offers in comparison to Conjure Animals. Conjure offers both damage and utility. The damage is very much top tier and the utility is also very good
It matters here then because it's extremely hard for a pure utility spell to overcome Conjure Animals because dead is almost always better than debuff..... It's just that this spell gives you both and it's yet another reason it's poorly balanced.
This is a honest question. At level 9, and especially beyond that, have you not found that non-magical damage (no matter how much damage), mediocre armor class, and hit points of 11 or less makes this spell more balanced than you’re making it out to be? 8 wolves does “math” out hard, but they are doing non-magical damage, have basically zero hit points, and their knockdown effect DC is almost nothing for all but the least threatening adversaries. Compared to several other spells available to other completely different classes, conjure animals could be considered wimpy. I’m looking at you, animate objects.
Only 25% of creatures have resistance to non-magical damage.
And half of a ton is still a half-ton. You get to control the creatures for free so it's action economy free damage on top of your normal turn.
So no that's not really a factor imo... It's less effective but it's still far and away the most effective option you have 90% of the time.
The 10% comes in when spacing might not let you get them all on the big bad of the encounter.... But even then if you get blood hawks it's mostly worth it.
Overall it's hard to find a commonly occuring scenario where conjure animals isn't your outright best option.
That plus the fact the spell does way more damage than other 3rd level options, causes turn bloat makes it one of the most unbalanced spells in the edition