Just like how some people only take crossbow expert for the third bullet point.
I cannot pass on the "related" check boons. Between tools and skills I get so much use out of it to make the whole feature worth it. And you don't have to be in the terrain to use it.
If the gm keeps what terrains you will be playing in secret you have to guess. If you play in only 1 terrain the 6th and 10th level additional terrain arent useful. Also dependent on how GM interprets "related to". If the adventure is supposed to be based around exploration and being lost this feature ruins the whole adventure just like goodberry also ruins survival adventures. If it is a city adventure doesn't do anything.
If you get a flexible gm with loose interpretation of relate to, then this can be good. Especially if the dm uses more than 1 terrain type and turns it off for you when they want some meaningful exploration issues. Because you can, in theory, get the expertise due to related while in a terrain you are not favored in. So it turns off the automatic stuff that could invalidate the adventure but still get the skills which enhance the adventure.
So you are saying the feature is bad because the dm made it bad. Then its not a bad feature its a bad dm.
No that is a dm dependent feature. Some people like reliability and don't want their abilities to based on whether they have a good or bad dm. (if you have a good dm, use it, abuse it. it is great. You will love having 2 terrains at 6. At 10 it will be harder for the dm to make the third relevant, but it may still be good).
So you are saying the feature is bad because the dm made it bad. Then its not a bad feature its a bad dm.
No that is a dm dependent feature. Some people like reliability and don't want their abilities to based on whether they have a good or bad dm. (if you have a good dm, use it, abuse it. it is great. You will love having 2 terrains at 6. At 10 it will be harder for the dm to make the third relevant, but it may still be good).
Since the main rule of 5e is DM Fiat every ability is dm dependent. so it Literally means a dm dependent feature cant be bad unless 5e as a whole is or DM fiat is.
all I know is if a dm starts Harassing a specific class you dump them.
Since I interacted with your other account recently I have little interest in responding to both. Have a nice day.
So you are saying the feature is bad because the dm made it bad. Then its not a bad feature its a bad dm.
No that is a dm dependent feature. Some people like reliability and don't want their abilities to based on whether they have a good or bad dm. (if you have a good dm, use it, abuse it. it is great. You will love having 2 terrains at 6. At 10 it will be harder for the dm to make the third relevant, but it may still be good).
Since the main rule of 5e is DM Fiat every ability is dm dependent. so it Literally means a dm dependent feature cant be bad unless 5e as a whole is or DM fiat is.
all I know is if a dm starts Harassing a specific class you dump them.
Since I interacted with your other account recently I have little interest in responding to both. Have a nice day.
I only have one account. Do you mean thread?
Edit: also not a great argument, it is a lot harder for a bad GM to mess up a feature that's rules are written clearly and concisely. I am not saying NE is bad, I am saying there are reasons to take DE over it.
The first part the expertise on "related skills" is wildly inconsistent from GM to GM, some players like consistency and to have an understanding of what they can do. Some GM's, especially newer GM's can also like more concrete answers rather than having to come up with it on the spot themselves. For example there are trees in a forest, and there are trees in a swamp, does this mean that I have expertise on nature checks for trees in the swamp because it is "related" to my favored terrain. Same with water and coast and a swamp. If I pick woods do I always have wood carvers tools expertise as long as you are using int or wisdom for it because it is "related" to my favored terrain? Me personally, no. It is all going to depend on what you are trying to do or what info you are trying to get and it is going to be almost character specific and more story based as to what is and isn't. It is going to kind of be like the optional rule in the DMG about "back story skills" where if it makes sense for your character to have the skill you have the skill, but ultimately talk to your gm. I do not feel like "talk to your GM" is bad advice when it comes to features like this.
The next parts I have gone over, but lets hit each of them again.
Difficult terrain doesn't slow your group's travel: This requires 3 things to be useful. 1 for you to be in your terrain (from level 1-3 probably 70%, of the time, 4-5 35-40% of the time, 6 when you get a second terrain, probably back up to 70% of the time, 10 when you get a third terrain probably 85% of the time). 2. it requires the terrain to be difficult (probably 85-90% of the time). and it requires the speed at which you travel to matter (probably 25 to 30% of the time.). which means at best this will make a difference about 23% of the time... which is meaningful. At worst it will still make a big difference 7% of the time. Not a lot of features can do this so great, but again adventure dependent... talk to your gm.
Group Can't be lost except by magical means: Requires 2 things to be useful. 1. be in your terrain (covered this) and 2. have the gm give you the risk of being lost. If this is useful, it is game breaking useful. That is not an endorsement of this ability. It is not fun for most to have an ability auto solve a problem without having to roleplay, roll dice, work as a team to come up with a solution or use group resources with clever spell usage to solve a problem. Just hand waving it away basically makes #2 only happen when the GM purposefully takes you out of your terrain and now you can't even use your cool expertise with skills to solve the problem unless the GM is being super generous. This entire sub-feature makes the first sub-feature less fun. I will actually talk to my ranger player usually about this and see if they are ok nixing this so they can roll play the exploration getting lost thing with expertise on survival checks, perception, insight, cartographer tools and everything else to have FUN solving the lost problem.
Even when you are engaged in another activity you remain active: again requires 3 things to be happening for it to see use, 1. Be in your terrain, 2. be doing something other than travel that distracts you, and at the same time as you are doing something else the gm has to attack the group. Will this happen? yes it absolutely will guaranteed eventually it will happen in your game. But it won't happen often. Still the couple times it could, this could be life or death.
If you are traveling alone, you can move stealthily at a normal pace: Again 3 conditions, 1. Your terrain, 2. Moving stealthily over a distance, 3. travelling along. This last one never happens. You are part of a party, you should never be moving at a pace alone. This is blank.
When you forage you find twice as much food as you normally do: this is good, and the larger the party the better. It is also unfortunate that this is replicated, but again this takes multiple conditions. 1. your terrain, 2. your characters need to forage for food, which again, most games, most adventures, this isn't going to matter, when it does it will be great. Talk to your GM.
When tracking, learn their number, size and how long ago they passed the area: again, terrain, and you need to be tracking something and not already know their numbers and size. And knowing these things has to be meaningful information to you.
As you level you get more terrain types, which, again, dependent on where your adventure takes place could or could not matter. As you level you are more likely to face more types of terrain, but if you are the only ranger in the group and you multi-class out it becomes more likely that your gm will throw you a bone and stick you in your favored terrain more often even though you only have 1. It still wont be as much as if you had 2, but it will still likely be more.
Deft Explorer Leve 1 Expertise in a skill. This is just consistent, 2 languages this is less consistent, but also thematic for someone that has travelled a lot. Level 6: 5 extra feet of movement, and a climb and swim speed. This doesn't just help with exploration, but it also helps with puzzles and keeping you out of reach or getting you into reach of enemies in combat, again consistent nothing muddy here about when it does and doesn't work. If you have to climb it works, if you have to swim it works, if you have to do neither 5 feet of movement is still more movement. Level 10. Take 1 action gain temporary hit points equal to 1d10+wis. Basically a Second wind light. It prevents damage rather than healing it and you can do it between combats throughout the day. The exhaustion recovery is good, but not always needed.
This is what it boils down to. 1 is very dependent on the GM's interpretation of it to function, can be inconsistent, and only helps with the exploration aspect of the game, which may or may not be the focus of the game. Depending on how it is the focus of the game, NE can be so good that it breaks the game, and breaking the game is no fun. The other is concrete in what it does, and helps in exploration and combat with combat being the thing most people are looking to survive and "win". Ultimately, which is best for your character is going to be both dependent on what you the player are looking for and on the adventure and interpretations of your GM. So talk to your GM about what it is you want. I can not believe that last statement is controversial to make.
Quote from kobold: " The same people who point and cry white room are in a whiter room. "
I say your arguments are all painted white with halogen lighting all designed to prove a point And Not for practical play.
Related is just as freeing as it is limiting that means you should take the average scenario not the edge case. {and a dm or player forcing edge casing is bad}.
Quote from kobold: " The same people who point and cry white room are in a whiter room. "
I say your arguments are all painted white with halogen lighting all designed to prove a point. Not for practical play.
Related is just as freeing as it is limiting that means you should take the average scenario not the edge case. {and a dm or player forcing edge casing is bad}.
This is very useful to the real world and not at all forcing your point of view on others or suggesting that another DM or players interpretations that aren't yours is bad rather than the norm and totally adds to conversation about this abilities real applications in a DnD 5e session. I hope you watched the second video as well.
Edit: in case you are wondering. I am saying both DM's that interpret it favorably and adventures where the scenarios exist that makes this feature amazing exist. But so do the others that don't make the useful features good or don't interpret it favorably so talk to your DM. That is called a real expectation of actual events and doesn't prescribe one or the other as bad, just a different way of playing. Because as long as you are playing and having fun it is valid. And it doesn't say "we must discuss the average between" rather than discussing each edge case because it is a rule that is openly vague, which can BOTH be good AND bad. Can't acknowledge either without the other. If you pretend that only the middle ground exists then you aren't talking about real scenarios. This feature, is written vague, just like the magic items. What is going to be a rare 501 gold item in one campaign is going to be a rare 5000 gold item in another. That is wildly different. Same with this feature. We can talk about the same book and the same rule and the same wording, but what does it give you expertise in? Depending on who you ask and what scenario you are going to get different answers because it is not defined.
Edit2: I just can't believe this Aquilontune suggests "Talk to your DM about this ability and do what works for you and your table between NE and DE" Roscoeivan "RAWR NO it is universally good and if your DM disagrees he is bad and you are bad for enjoying his game" and I am the unreasonable one.
DM's who don't want to play out the traveling parts of the game can award rangers with this trait extra downtime and gold to represent reduced travel, expenses, and salable forage. Less fun perhaps but this way you keep the trait relevant without straining the campaign style. I would also like to point out that you don't need to be following something specific to use tracking; it is also useful just to see what lives in the area.
Oh also I think everyone needs a small re-read of natural explorer, specifically the related to feature
Natural Explorer
You are particularly familiar with one type of natural environment and are adept at traveling and surviving in such regions. Choose one type of favored terrain: arctic, coast, desert, forest, grassland, mountain, swamp, or the Underdark. When you make an Intelligence or Wisdom check related to your favored terrain, your proficiency bonus is doubled if you are using a skill that you’re proficient in.
So no you do not get double proficiency on everything int and wisdom for your terrain. You only get it for SKILLS and you have to be PROFICIENT in it first and it has to be related to your terrain at the time. You do not get it for tools.
Edit: this actually could mean that it is thankfully slightly less vague AND you can do things to maximize this. By taking the skilled feat rather than skill expert or any race that gives you free extra skills you can build to maximize this feature.
DM's who don't want to play out the traveling parts of the game can award rangers with this trait extra downtime and gold to represent reduced travel, expenses, and salable forage. Less fun perhaps but this way you keep the trait relevant without straining the campaign style. I would also like to point out that you don't need to be following something specific to use tracking; it is also useful just to see what lives in the area.
I do this all the time. I can take my boons in less than a minute of time and move on to the interesting parts of the adventure. The extra activity is great value.
our math friend seems to forget these are not dependent probabilities but instead are Additive probabilities. All you need is one of the 7 natural explore options to be useful more frequently than Deft explorer's 7{depending how you separate them} Under the same conditions for it to be Better for your build.
We actually did a group analysis of how often the 5' movement, climb speed or swim speed. surprisingly even though its "always on" it came up once in a ranger only game. the temporary HP only helped once as the best tactic was to avoid damage. Situational expertise in every skill proficiency mathematically turns out better than one proficiency you "hope" to use. one of our guys used exhaustion removal several times but he was deliberately pushing it by skipping rests. {note: dms vary wildly on how much extra stuff causes exhaustion. but forced march is the main generation of it. }
being able to stealth alone at the same speed as the party is always an option and quite useful most of the time because you can travel within range of the party and start combat as a hidden participant.
Oh also I think everyone needs a small re-read of natural explorer, specifically the related to feature
Natural Explorer
You are particularly familiar with one type of natural environment and are adept at traveling and surviving in such regions. Choose one type of favored terrain: arctic, coast, desert, forest, grassland, mountain, swamp, or the Underdark. When you make an Intelligence or Wisdom check related to your favored terrain, your proficiency bonus is doubled if you are using a skill that you’re proficient in.
So no you do not get double proficiency on everything int and wisdom for your terrain. You only get it for SKILLS and you have to be PROFICIENT in it first and it has to be related to your terrain at the time. You do not get it for tools.
Edit: this actually could mean that it is thankfully slightly less vague AND you can do things to maximize this. By taking the skilled feat rather than skill expert or any race that gives you free extra skills you can build to maximize this feature.
wow..... your right I made a huge mistake..... that changes everything......... we will have to build from the ground up. Nothing I have said could be remotely valid.
because tools definitely cannot be used with skill checks. Like having a poisoners kit and Making a DC 20 nature check to harvest free damage. Or using a Navigators tools instead of a survival check. or using an herbalism kit to make a medicine check.
DM's who don't want to play out the traveling parts of the game can award rangers with this trait extra downtime and gold to represent reduced travel, expenses, and salable forage. Less fun perhaps but this way you keep the trait relevant without straining the campaign style. I would also like to point out that you don't need to be following something specific to use tracking; it is also useful just to see what lives in the area.
This is a perfect example of something you can talk to a dm about to make a feature more universally useful. In addition to this, the reduced travel time combined with the double foraging means you can also have your party use up 1/4 of their rations in a game that tracks these things. So now, not only does this feature matter in games where time is of the essence, it also matters in games where distance and supplies matter.
Oh also I think everyone needs a small re-read of natural explorer, specifically the related to feature
Natural Explorer
You are particularly familiar with one type of natural environment and are adept at traveling and surviving in such regions. Choose one type of favored terrain: arctic, coast, desert, forest, grassland, mountain, swamp, or the Underdark. When you make an Intelligence or Wisdom check related to your favored terrain, your proficiency bonus is doubled if you are using a skill that you’re proficient in.
So no you do not get double proficiency on everything int and wisdom for your terrain. You only get it for SKILLS and you have to be PROFICIENT in it first and it has to be related to your terrain at the time. You do not get it for tools.
Edit: this actually could mean that it is thankfully slightly less vague AND you can do things to maximize this. By taking the skilled feat rather than skill expert or any race that gives you free extra skills you can build to maximize this feature.
wow..... your right I made a huge mistake..... that changes everything......... we will have to build from the ground up. Nothing I have said could be remotely valid.
because tools definitely cannot be used with skill checks. Like having a poisoners kit and Making a DC 20 nature check to harvest free damage. Or using a Navigators tools instead of a survival check. or using an herbalism kit to make a medicine check.
Note: you actually haven't said much of anything in this thread other than to attack me, who is actually trying to have a conversation about pros and cons of one of the dominant features of the ranger class.
I mean, just look at the post you responded to. I am actively giving tips on ways to maximize this feature by taking things to give you the most amount of skills to make it trigger more often and you are still being a jerk about it.
Oh also I think everyone needs a small re-read of natural explorer, specifically the related to feature
Natural Explorer
You are particularly familiar with one type of natural environment and are adept at traveling and surviving in such regions. Choose one type of favored terrain: arctic, coast, desert, forest, grassland, mountain, swamp, or the Underdark. When you make an Intelligence or Wisdom check related to your favored terrain, your proficiency bonus is doubled if you are using a skill that you’re proficient in.
So no you do not get double proficiency on everything int and wisdom for your terrain. You only get it for SKILLS and you have to be PROFICIENT in it first and it has to be related to your terrain at the time. You do not get it for tools.
Edit: this actually could mean that it is thankfully slightly less vague AND you can do things to maximize this. By taking the skilled feat rather than skill expert or any race that gives you free extra skills you can build to maximize this feature.
wow..... your right I made a huge mistake..... that changes everything......... we will have to build from the ground up. Nothing I have said could be remotely valid.
because tools definitely cannot be used with skill checks. Like having a poisoners kit and Making a DC 20 nature check to harvest free damage. Or using a Navigators tools instead of a survival check. or using an herbalism kit to make a medicine check.
Note: you actually haven't said much of anything in this thread other than to attack me, who is actually trying to have a conversation about pros and cons of one of the dominant features of the ranger class.
I mean, just look at the post you responded to. I am actively giving tips on ways to maximize this feature by taking things to give you the most amount of skills to make it trigger more often and you are still being a jerk about it.
Yeah i noticed that as well. Really tiresome.
On topic: It's a great feature but requires the DM as well as the player to get more involved than with other features. Simple expertise is a lot more reliable and thus preferred by many. Personally I only ever took Deft Explorer on characters where I wasn't particularly interested in the usual Ranger fantasy so I valued the additional mobility more. Most of the time it's Natural Explorer for me though.
While I believe I gave accurate input and was fully within the bounds of the forum rules, it is no excuse for stooping to meet that level. I will refrain from Nit-picks, hyperbole and Inconsistency validifying.
I will say only 6 of the 7 Natural explorer benefits actually require the ranger to be in said terrain. The 6 that do Are only "situational" based on being in the terrain, otherwise Deft explorer needs to be measured the exact same "situational" way.
Now NE does require some form work from the ranger player. However, just because people use it wrong or take advantage of its features doesn't make it Poorly designed. Even games that only care about combat encounters can still take advantage of natural explorer. The fact that a ranger can start a traveling combat encounter hidden{bullet point 4. Traveling alone but at the same speed as the group 30' away is perfectly valid.}, with more resources/liquidatable assets alone effect combat performance. {Bullet points 3 and 5}
Oh also I think everyone needs a small re-read of natural explorer, specifically the related to feature
Natural Explorer
You are particularly familiar with one type of natural environment and are adept at traveling and surviving in such regions. Choose one type of favored terrain: arctic, coast, desert, forest, grassland, mountain, swamp, or the Underdark. When you make an Intelligence or Wisdom check related to your favored terrain, your proficiency bonus is doubled if you are using a skill that you’re proficient in.
So no you do not get double proficiency on everything int and wisdom for your terrain. You only get it for SKILLS and you have to be PROFICIENT in it first and it has to be related to your terrain at the time. You do not get it for tools.
Edit: this actually could mean that it is thankfully slightly less vague AND you can do things to maximize this. By taking the skilled feat rather than skill expert or any race that gives you free extra skills you can build to maximize this feature.
wow..... your right I made a huge mistake..... that changes everything......... we will have to build from the ground up. Nothing I have said could be remotely valid.
because tools definitely cannot be used with skill checks. Like having a poisoners kit and Making a DC 20 nature check to harvest free damage. Or using a Navigators tools instead of a survival check. or using an herbalism kit to make a medicine check.
Note: you actually haven't said much of anything in this thread other than to attack me, who is actually trying to have a conversation about pros and cons of one of the dominant features of the ranger class.
I mean, just look at the post you responded to. I am actively giving tips on ways to maximize this feature by taking things to give you the most amount of skills to make it trigger more often and you are still being a jerk about it.
Yeah i noticed that as well. Really tiresome.
On topic: It's a great feature but requires the DM as well as the player to get more involved than with other features. Simple expertise is a lot more reliable and thus preferred by many. Personally I only ever took Deft Explorer on characters where I wasn't particularly interested in the usual Ranger fantasy so I valued the additional mobility more. Most of the time it's Natural Explorer for me though.
While I believe I gave accurate input and was fully within the bounds of the forum rules, it is no excuse for stooping to meet that level. I will refrain from Nit-picks, hyperbole and Inconsistency validifying.
I will say only 6 of the 7 Natural explorer benefits actually require the ranger to be in said terrain. The 6 that do Are only "situational" based on being in the terrain, otherwise Deft explorer needs to be measured the exact same "situational" way.
Now NE does require some form work from the ranger player. However, just because people use it wrong or take advantage of its features doesn't make it Poorly designed. Even games that only care about combat encounters can still take advantage of natural explorer. The fact that a ranger can start a traveling combat encounter hidden{bullet point 4. Traveling alone but at the same speed as the group 30' away is perfectly valid.}, with more resources/liquidatable assets alone effect combat performance. {Bullet points 3 and 5}
Now I did want to talk about that bullet point 4. Because I had noticed you talk about it with the other person thankfully, but didn't want to get into it, if it was just going to be the back and forth it has been, but I am hoping things are a little more calmed down. Again this is a little GM dependent because, as a GM, if you are travelling alone, you are specifically not travelling with the group. Which means if they get in combat, you are not in combat with them. Also you need to be travelling with the group for the group to benefit from bullet point 2 and 3. Which means they can now get lost and they are hindered by difficult terrain. And since you need to travel in your terrain for 1 hour for this to take effect, if you were travelling alone, stealthy at normal pace not hindered by terrain and the rest of the party is hindered by terrain then at minimum, even if you have sending stones for them to contact you to come back and help, you are 30 minutes out. Also if they get lost, it is a good thing you have bullet 7 because now you have to track them down. This is why I do not put much stock in bullet point 4 because, in most situation, you are going to be travelling with the group, not travelling alone. Maybe if you are an elf where you can take a full rest in 4 hours and want to use the extra 4 hours of time the rest of the party is resting for to "scout ahead" there could be a benefit here, but definitely none of the GM's I play with or myself would define travelling alone as travelling with the group just off to the side.
This is where that first video/second video I was talking about with nonat1 really comes into play. vagueness of a feature can be great for experienced DM's and players, but sometimes things can be written TOO simply. and more specificity and consistency helps.
That is the tiny issue with your example earlier with the stress test with your group. It works, For your group. Your group rules the abilities specific ways and sets up their combat encounters a specific way. In a different group that is less kind to NE and sets up combat encounters where climbing and swimming is more common place or encounters that are more plentiful or harder for the group to be taking more unavoidable damage you are going to get different results.
Maybe you wanted to play ranger, but the GM has said this is mostly a city campaign. Some of the skills might matter, but it may not matter as much as having expertise in stealth, or slight of hand, or persuasion, or deception. Deft explorer is a way to get expertise with non-int and wisdom skills as well. And of course Languages are going to help in a seedy underworld of a city.
Anyway this has been a small rant. I hope it can remain more civil in the future.
Edit: maybe if they are traveling along a road, thus no difficult terrain and you are traveling like 600 feet out through your favored terrain. That would be in long bow range. It is a stretch, but I would probably allow it. Would feel more confident if 1000, sharpshooter would help with that though.
This ability does not work for tables that don't use an entire portion of the rules, exploration. Apparently some table don't. They just have some narrative description and then move on to the next combat. For every edition of the game the act of travel and exploration is a huge part of the game. Natural explorer works in tandem with the rules of the game extremely well, and is unbeatable by any other ability in the game. If someone has an experience or opinion about the ability that is along the lines of "...doesn't work...", "...isn't useful''", or "...very boring for a boring part of the game...", I'm very sorry, as you haven't played an entire chapter of the core rules and part of the game.
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A thread for a place to discuss and link to from other threads the ranger ability Natural Explorer.
Just like how some people only take crossbow expert for the third bullet point.
I cannot pass on the "related" check boons. Between tools and skills I get so much use out of it to make the whole feature worth it. And you don't have to be in the terrain to use it.
Depends on the GM and adventure.
If the gm keeps what terrains you will be playing in secret you have to guess. If you play in only 1 terrain the 6th and 10th level additional terrain arent useful. Also dependent on how GM interprets "related to". If the adventure is supposed to be based around exploration and being lost this feature ruins the whole adventure just like goodberry also ruins survival adventures. If it is a city adventure doesn't do anything.
If you get a flexible gm with loose interpretation of relate to, then this can be good. Especially if the dm uses more than 1 terrain type and turns it off for you when they want some meaningful exploration issues. Because you can, in theory, get the expertise due to related while in a terrain you are not favored in. So it turns off the automatic stuff that could invalidate the adventure but still get the skills which enhance the adventure.
So ya depends on your gm.
So you are saying the feature is bad because the dm made it bad. Then its not a bad feature its a bad dm.
The flexibility of the wording means a dm can take a nice middle ground between "ruining" the adventure and uselessness.
sounds like your using both "ends of the candle" in your argument.
Note: Favored terrain can give you boons to candle making.
No that is a dm dependent feature. Some people like reliability and don't want their abilities to based on whether they have a good or bad dm. (if you have a good dm, use it, abuse it. it is great. You will love having 2 terrains at 6. At 10 it will be harder for the dm to make the third relevant, but it may still be good).
Since the main rule of 5e is DM Fiat every ability is dm dependent. so it Literally means a dm dependent feature cant be bad unless 5e as a whole is or DM fiat is.
all I know is if a dm starts Harassing a specific class you dump them.
Since I interacted with your other account recently I have little interest in responding to both. Have a nice day.
I only have one account. Do you mean thread?
Edit: also not a great argument, it is a lot harder for a bad GM to mess up a feature that's rules are written clearly and concisely. I am not saying NE is bad, I am saying there are reasons to take DE over it.
I am just going to leave 2 videos here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpOeHIq-SA8, and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FLrMIVrioE. Both of these explain very well why the everything is DM fiat is a bad argument and deflects from the actual conversation. So to get back to the actual conversation.
The first part the expertise on "related skills" is wildly inconsistent from GM to GM, some players like consistency and to have an understanding of what they can do. Some GM's, especially newer GM's can also like more concrete answers rather than having to come up with it on the spot themselves. For example there are trees in a forest, and there are trees in a swamp, does this mean that I have expertise on nature checks for trees in the swamp because it is "related" to my favored terrain. Same with water and coast and a swamp. If I pick woods do I always have wood carvers tools expertise as long as you are using int or wisdom for it because it is "related" to my favored terrain? Me personally, no. It is all going to depend on what you are trying to do or what info you are trying to get and it is going to be almost character specific and more story based as to what is and isn't. It is going to kind of be like the optional rule in the DMG about "back story skills" where if it makes sense for your character to have the skill you have the skill, but ultimately talk to your gm. I do not feel like "talk to your GM" is bad advice when it comes to features like this.
The next parts I have gone over, but lets hit each of them again.
Difficult terrain doesn't slow your group's travel: This requires 3 things to be useful. 1 for you to be in your terrain (from level 1-3 probably 70%, of the time, 4-5 35-40% of the time, 6 when you get a second terrain, probably back up to 70% of the time, 10 when you get a third terrain probably 85% of the time). 2. it requires the terrain to be difficult (probably 85-90% of the time). and it requires the speed at which you travel to matter (probably 25 to 30% of the time.). which means at best this will make a difference about 23% of the time... which is meaningful. At worst it will still make a big difference 7% of the time. Not a lot of features can do this so great, but again adventure dependent... talk to your gm.
Group Can't be lost except by magical means: Requires 2 things to be useful. 1. be in your terrain (covered this) and 2. have the gm give you the risk of being lost. If this is useful, it is game breaking useful. That is not an endorsement of this ability. It is not fun for most to have an ability auto solve a problem without having to roleplay, roll dice, work as a team to come up with a solution or use group resources with clever spell usage to solve a problem. Just hand waving it away basically makes #2 only happen when the GM purposefully takes you out of your terrain and now you can't even use your cool expertise with skills to solve the problem unless the GM is being super generous. This entire sub-feature makes the first sub-feature less fun. I will actually talk to my ranger player usually about this and see if they are ok nixing this so they can roll play the exploration getting lost thing with expertise on survival checks, perception, insight, cartographer tools and everything else to have FUN solving the lost problem.
Even when you are engaged in another activity you remain active: again requires 3 things to be happening for it to see use, 1. Be in your terrain, 2. be doing something other than travel that distracts you, and at the same time as you are doing something else the gm has to attack the group. Will this happen? yes it absolutely will guaranteed eventually it will happen in your game. But it won't happen often. Still the couple times it could, this could be life or death.
If you are traveling alone, you can move stealthily at a normal pace: Again 3 conditions, 1. Your terrain, 2. Moving stealthily over a distance, 3. travelling along. This last one never happens. You are part of a party, you should never be moving at a pace alone. This is blank.
When you forage you find twice as much food as you normally do: this is good, and the larger the party the better. It is also unfortunate that this is replicated, but again this takes multiple conditions. 1. your terrain, 2. your characters need to forage for food, which again, most games, most adventures, this isn't going to matter, when it does it will be great. Talk to your GM.
When tracking, learn their number, size and how long ago they passed the area: again, terrain, and you need to be tracking something and not already know their numbers and size. And knowing these things has to be meaningful information to you.
As you level you get more terrain types, which, again, dependent on where your adventure takes place could or could not matter. As you level you are more likely to face more types of terrain, but if you are the only ranger in the group and you multi-class out it becomes more likely that your gm will throw you a bone and stick you in your favored terrain more often even though you only have 1. It still wont be as much as if you had 2, but it will still likely be more.
Deft Explorer Leve 1 Expertise in a skill. This is just consistent, 2 languages this is less consistent, but also thematic for someone that has travelled a lot. Level 6: 5 extra feet of movement, and a climb and swim speed. This doesn't just help with exploration, but it also helps with puzzles and keeping you out of reach or getting you into reach of enemies in combat, again consistent nothing muddy here about when it does and doesn't work. If you have to climb it works, if you have to swim it works, if you have to do neither 5 feet of movement is still more movement. Level 10. Take 1 action gain temporary hit points equal to 1d10+wis. Basically a Second wind light. It prevents damage rather than healing it and you can do it between combats throughout the day. The exhaustion recovery is good, but not always needed.
This is what it boils down to. 1 is very dependent on the GM's interpretation of it to function, can be inconsistent, and only helps with the exploration aspect of the game, which may or may not be the focus of the game. Depending on how it is the focus of the game, NE can be so good that it breaks the game, and breaking the game is no fun. The other is concrete in what it does, and helps in exploration and combat with combat being the thing most people are looking to survive and "win". Ultimately, which is best for your character is going to be both dependent on what you the player are looking for and on the adventure and interpretations of your GM. So talk to your GM about what it is you want. I can not believe that last statement is controversial to make.
I say your arguments are all painted white with halogen lighting all designed to prove a point And Not for practical play.
Related is just as freeing as it is limiting that means you should take the average scenario not the edge case. {and a dm or player forcing edge casing is bad}.
This is very useful to the real world and not at all forcing your point of view on others or suggesting that another DM or players interpretations that aren't yours is bad rather than the norm and totally adds to conversation about this abilities real applications in a DnD 5e session. I hope you watched the second video as well.
Edit: in case you are wondering. I am saying both DM's that interpret it favorably and adventures where the scenarios exist that makes this feature amazing exist. But so do the others that don't make the useful features good or don't interpret it favorably so talk to your DM. That is called a real expectation of actual events and doesn't prescribe one or the other as bad, just a different way of playing. Because as long as you are playing and having fun it is valid. And it doesn't say "we must discuss the average between" rather than discussing each edge case because it is a rule that is openly vague, which can BOTH be good AND bad. Can't acknowledge either without the other. If you pretend that only the middle ground exists then you aren't talking about real scenarios. This feature, is written vague, just like the magic items. What is going to be a rare 501 gold item in one campaign is going to be a rare 5000 gold item in another. That is wildly different. Same with this feature.
We can talk about the same book and the same rule and the same wording, but what does it give you expertise in? Depending on who you ask and what scenario you are going to get different answers because it is not defined.
Edit2: I just can't believe this Aquilontune suggests "Talk to your DM about this ability and do what works for you and your table between NE and DE" Roscoeivan "RAWR NO it is universally good and if your DM disagrees he is bad and you are bad for enjoying his game" and I am the unreasonable one.
DM's who don't want to play out the traveling parts of the game can award rangers with this trait extra downtime and gold to represent reduced travel, expenses, and salable forage. Less fun perhaps but this way you keep the trait relevant without straining the campaign style. I would also like to point out that you don't need to be following something specific to use tracking; it is also useful just to see what lives in the area.
Oh also I think everyone needs a small re-read of natural explorer, specifically the related to feature
Natural Explorer
You are particularly familiar with one type of natural environment and are adept at traveling and surviving in such regions. Choose one type of favored terrain: arctic, coast, desert, forest, grassland, mountain, swamp, or the Underdark. When you make an Intelligence or Wisdom check related to your favored terrain, your proficiency bonus is doubled if you are using a skill that you’re proficient in.
So no you do not get double proficiency on everything int and wisdom for your terrain. You only get it for SKILLS and you have to be PROFICIENT in it first and it has to be related to your terrain at the time. You do not get it for tools.
Edit: this actually could mean that it is thankfully slightly less vague AND you can do things to maximize this. By taking the skilled feat rather than skill expert or any race that gives you free extra skills you can build to maximize this feature.
I do this all the time. I can take my boons in less than a minute of time and move on to the interesting parts of the adventure. The extra activity is great value.
our math friend seems to forget these are not dependent probabilities but instead are Additive probabilities. All you need is one of the 7 natural explore options to be useful more frequently than Deft explorer's 7{depending how you separate them} Under the same conditions for it to be Better for your build.
We actually did a group analysis of how often the 5' movement, climb speed or swim speed. surprisingly even though its "always on" it came up once in a ranger only game. the temporary HP only helped once as the best tactic was to avoid damage. Situational expertise in every skill proficiency mathematically turns out better than one proficiency you "hope" to use. one of our guys used exhaustion removal several times but he was deliberately pushing it by skipping rests. {note: dms vary wildly on how much extra stuff causes exhaustion. but forced march is the main generation of it. }
being able to stealth alone at the same speed as the party is always an option and quite useful most of the time because you can travel within range of the party and start combat as a hidden participant.
wow..... your right I made a huge mistake..... that changes everything......... we will have to build from the ground up. Nothing I have said could be remotely valid.
because tools definitely cannot be used with skill checks. Like having a poisoners kit and Making a DC 20 nature check to harvest free damage. Or using a Navigators tools instead of a survival check. or using an herbalism kit to make a medicine check.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/xgte/dungeon-masters-tools#ToolsandSkillsTogether
This is a perfect example of something you can talk to a dm about to make a feature more universally useful. In addition to this, the reduced travel time combined with the double foraging means you can also have your party use up 1/4 of their rations in a game that tracks these things. So now, not only does this feature matter in games where time is of the essence, it also matters in games where distance and supplies matter.
Note: you actually haven't said much of anything in this thread other than to attack me, who is actually trying to have a conversation about pros and cons of one of the dominant features of the ranger class.
I mean, just look at the post you responded to. I am actively giving tips on ways to maximize this feature by taking things to give you the most amount of skills to make it trigger more often and you are still being a jerk about it.
While I believe I gave accurate input and was fully within the bounds of the forum rules, it is no excuse for stooping to meet that level. I will refrain from Nit-picks, hyperbole and Inconsistency validifying.
I will say only 6 of the 7 Natural explorer benefits actually require the ranger to be in said terrain. The 6 that do Are only "situational" based on being in the terrain, otherwise Deft explorer needs to be measured the exact same "situational" way.
Now NE does require some form work from the ranger player. However, just because people use it wrong or take advantage of its features doesn't make it Poorly designed. Even games that only care about combat encounters can still take advantage of natural explorer. The fact that a ranger can start a traveling combat encounter hidden{bullet point 4. Traveling alone but at the same speed as the group 30' away is perfectly valid.}, with more resources/liquidatable assets alone effect combat performance. {Bullet points 3 and 5}
Now I did want to talk about that bullet point 4. Because I had noticed you talk about it with the other person thankfully, but didn't want to get into it, if it was just going to be the back and forth it has been, but I am hoping things are a little more calmed down. Again this is a little GM dependent because, as a GM, if you are travelling alone, you are specifically not travelling with the group. Which means if they get in combat, you are not in combat with them. Also you need to be travelling with the group for the group to benefit from bullet point 2 and 3. Which means they can now get lost and they are hindered by difficult terrain. And since you need to travel in your terrain for 1 hour for this to take effect, if you were travelling alone, stealthy at normal pace not hindered by terrain and the rest of the party is hindered by terrain then at minimum, even if you have sending stones for them to contact you to come back and help, you are 30 minutes out. Also if they get lost, it is a good thing you have bullet 7 because now you have to track them down. This is why I do not put much stock in bullet point 4 because, in most situation, you are going to be travelling with the group, not travelling alone. Maybe if you are an elf where you can take a full rest in 4 hours and want to use the extra 4 hours of time the rest of the party is resting for to "scout ahead" there could be a benefit here, but definitely none of the GM's I play with or myself would define travelling alone as travelling with the group just off to the side.
This is where that first video/second video I was talking about with nonat1 really comes into play. vagueness of a feature can be great for experienced DM's and players, but sometimes things can be written TOO simply. and more specificity and consistency helps.
That is the tiny issue with your example earlier with the stress test with your group. It works, For your group. Your group rules the abilities specific ways and sets up their combat encounters a specific way. In a different group that is less kind to NE and sets up combat encounters where climbing and swimming is more common place or encounters that are more plentiful or harder for the group to be taking more unavoidable damage you are going to get different results.
Maybe you wanted to play ranger, but the GM has said this is mostly a city campaign. Some of the skills might matter, but it may not matter as much as having expertise in stealth, or slight of hand, or persuasion, or deception. Deft explorer is a way to get expertise with non-int and wisdom skills as well. And of course Languages are going to help in a seedy underworld of a city.
Anyway this has been a small rant. I hope it can remain more civil in the future.
Edit: maybe if they are traveling along a road, thus no difficult terrain and you are traveling like 600 feet out through your favored terrain. That would be in long bow range. It is a stretch, but I would probably allow it. Would feel more confident if 1000, sharpshooter would help with that though.
This ability does not work for tables that don't use an entire portion of the rules, exploration. Apparently some table don't. They just have some narrative description and then move on to the next combat. For every edition of the game the act of travel and exploration is a huge part of the game. Natural explorer works in tandem with the rules of the game extremely well, and is unbeatable by any other ability in the game. If someone has an experience or opinion about the ability that is along the lines of "...doesn't work...", "...isn't useful''", or "...very boring for a boring part of the game...", I'm very sorry, as you haven't played an entire chapter of the core rules and part of the game.