Am i the only one realising that heavy crossbows cannot be dual wielded. Thus making hand crossbows better since you can make 3 attack ? Even better with artificer repeating shot droping the need for reloading hands.
You can not dual wield Hand Crossbows RAW. The repeating shot infusion and the crossbow expert feat both allow you to ignore the loading property but they do not allow you to ignore the ammunition property. Even though the repeating shot weapon makes its own ammo, it does not say it loads its own ammo or that you can ignore the free hand requirement of the ammunition property.
With the Crossbow expert feat you can make 3 attacks with a single hand crossbow if you have extra attack:
When you use the Attack action and attack with a one handed weapon, you can use a bonus action to attack with a hand crossbow you are holding.
Start off holding one hand crossbow with the other hand empty.
Action: Attack with hand crossbow, Attack again with hand crossbow (ignoring loading)
Now you have used the attack action and attacked with a one handed weapon (the crossbow you attacked with) so you can use a bonus action to attack with a hand crossbow you are holding (the same one you just attacked with).
So you make all 3 attacks with the SAME hand crossbow. Dual wielding them would mean you could only make 2 attacks (unless you dropped one).
Sorry but with hunters mark the hand crossbows 3 attacks at level 7... 2 artificer and 5 rangers would literally outrun your 2 attacks with heavy crossbows. With literally 1 more attack chances and literally 1d6+1d6
The artificer levels are irrelevant because repeating shot does not do anything. As for 3 hand crossbow attacks with hunters mark vs 2 heavy crossbow with hunters mark It depends on how many hit points the foes have and how long the combat is because hunters mark requires a bonus action to cast and a bonus action to move. Assuming a 16 Dexterity:
Round 1:
HM+Heavy crossbowX2 = 25 damage average
HM+Hand crossbowx2 = 21 damage
Round 2
Heavy Crossbowx2 = 25 damage (50 total)
Hand Crossbowx3= 31 damage (52 total)
So after 2 turns the hand crossbow man is ahead and he will get further ahead every round he does not have to move the Hunters Mark, however the Hunters Mark will rarely stay on one enemy for 3 rounds and if he has to move it on round 3 he is behind again:
Round 3 (Moving HM)
HM+Heavy Crossbowx2 = 25 damage (75 total)
HM + Hand Crossbowx2 =21 damage (73 total)
When you consider needing to recast due to concentration and moving it because an enemy dies or flees you will not pull much if any ahead of heavy crossbow guy and that is using all of your bonus actions while Heavy guy has some bonus actions for other things. Given this and the better range, I think Heavy Crossbow+HM will generally be more effective than Hand Crossbow+HM as a basic combat tactic.
If you load no ammunition in the weapon, it produces its own, automatically creating one piece of magic ammunition when you make a ranged attack with it. The ammunition created by the weapon vanishes the instant after it hits or misses a target.
this section that i set in bold and underlines shows that the weapon itself produces the ammunition. the weapon wouldn't produce the ammunition in your hand. it would produce it into itself.
also... jeremy crawford in Dragon+ magasin said the artificer repeating shot made the ammunition load itself. hence it ignores the loading property and do not require a free hand to load the weapon. because the ammunition appears set in the weapon itself. can't find the dragon+ magasin but its on sageadvice.eu
secondly... hand crossbows are light weapons, thus can be dual wielded.
along with repeating shots, both hand crossbows becomes automatic loading weapons that can be both fired every rounds. allowing you to have 3 attacks per rounds.
i'll say... always playing per RAW, you miss on a lot of good interactions that were meant to be. you also inadvertedly, start "Interpretting" your own version of it. because some words rings different for one then to another. thus there is no real RAW. there is always RAI per people reading the ability. aka why there are still DMs in this game, because each DMs interprets the rules differently. so are each players. reinforcing the need for DMs to manage the players.
by RAW... i'd say the repeating shot actually loads the weapons itself if you dont give it ammunition. for the text itself refers to the weapon by saying "IT" produce its own ammunition.
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If you load no ammunition in the weapon, it produces its own, automatically creating one piece of magic ammunition when you make a ranged attack with it. The ammunition created by the weapon vanishes the instant after it hits or misses a target.
this section that i set in bold and underlines shows that the weapon itself produces the ammunition. the weapon wouldn't produce the ammunition in your hand. it would produce it into itself.
I understand your logic and it is reasonable to rule this way, but the repeating shot does not say it lets you ignore the ammunition property. By strict application of RAW you need a hand free.
also... jeremy crawford in Dragon+ magasin said the artificer repeating shot made the ammunition load itself. hence it ignores the loading property and do not require a free hand to load the weapon.
The loading property and the ammunition property are two different things. A repeating crossbow does ignore the loading property (as does any crossbow when the user has crossbow expert).
secondly... hand crossbows are light weapons, thus can be dual wielded.
The rules for two weapon fighting state the weapons need to be light melee weapons. You can throw them (if they have the thrown property) but it does not work with ranged weapons.
Specific rules: When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand. You don’t add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative. If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack with it.
To fire a hand crossbow as a bonus action you need to have the crossbow expert feat. If you have the crossbow expert feat you do not need repeating crossbows, you only need one crossbow.
along with repeating shots, both hand crossbows becomes automatic loading weapons that can be both fired every rounds. allowing you to have 3 attacks per rounds.
All you need is the crossbow expert feat (and extra attack) to fire three rounds in a turn with ONE hand crossbow. You do not need to dual wield.
RAW one hand crossbow with the crossbow expert feat and you can fire twice as an action and once as a bonus action. You do not need a repeating crossbow for that, you can use a normal non-magical crossbow and anyone with the feat can do it.
If you accept your interpretaion/houserule for the repeating crossbow not requiring a free hand you could do it while holding a shield or a spell focus or anything else but you would not need 2 crossbows to do this, and 2 crossbows would be a waste even with that interpretation as anyone with the crossbow expert feat and extra attack can get 3 attacks without dual wielding.
The ammunition property does not state that you need a free hand to fire a a weapon with the property. It states:
Ammunition. You can use a weapon that has the ammunition property to make a ranged attack only if you have ammunition to fire from the weapon. Each time you attack with the weapon, you expend one piece of ammunition. Drawing the ammunition from a quiver, case, or other container is part of the attack (you need a free hand to load a one-handed weapon). At the end of the battle, you can recover half your expended ammunition by taking a minute to search the battlefield.
The property only requires you use ammunition and provides you can draw and load it as part of the attack with a free hand. In any instance which you do not need to manually replenish the ammunition it follows you do not need a free hand. The only requirement is that you spend one piece of ammunition per attack.
But you don’t need to wield two hand crossbow to attack 3x times at level 5. CBE feat circumvent the whole loading problem. Which means you can attack as much as you can by the actions you have available. For instance, if you are a Fighter with Action Surge, you can attack 4x times with a crossbow. Plus if you are wielding a hand crossbow, you can also attack with your bonus action.
The ammunition property does not state that you need a free hand to fire a a weapon with the property. It states:
Ammunition. You can use a weapon that has the ammunition property to make a ranged attack only if you have ammunition to fire from the weapon. Each time you attack with the weapon, you expend one piece of ammunition. Drawing the ammunition from a quiver, case, or other container is part of the attack (you need a free handto load a one-handed weapon). At the end of the battle, you can recover half your expended ammunition by taking a minute to search the battlefield.
The property only requires you use ammunition and provides you can draw and load it as part of the attack with a free hand. In any instance which you do not need to manually replenish the ammunition it follows you do not need a free hand. The only requirement is that you spend one piece of ammunition per attack.
look at the bolded and underlined part from your post above.
You can not dual wield Hand Crossbows RAW. The repeating shot infusion and the crossbow expert feat both allow you to ignore the loading property but they do not allow you to ignore the ammunition property. Even though the repeating shot weapon makes its own ammo, it does not say it loads its own ammo or that you can ignore the free hand requirement of the ammunition property.
With the Crossbow expert feat you can make 3 attacks with a single hand crossbow if you have extra attack:
Start off holding one hand crossbow with the other hand empty.
Action: Attack with hand crossbow, Attack again with hand crossbow (ignoring loading)
Now you have used the attack action and attacked with a one handed weapon (the crossbow you attacked with) so you can use a bonus action to attack with a hand crossbow you are holding (the same one you just attacked with).
So you make all 3 attacks with the SAME hand crossbow. Dual wielding them would mean you could only make 2 attacks (unless you dropped one).
The artificer levels are irrelevant because repeating shot does not do anything. As for 3 hand crossbow attacks with hunters mark vs 2 heavy crossbow with hunters mark It depends on how many hit points the foes have and how long the combat is because hunters mark requires a bonus action to cast and a bonus action to move. Assuming a 16 Dexterity:
Round 1:
HM+Heavy crossbowX2 = 25 damage average
HM+Hand crossbowx2 = 21 damage
Round 2
Heavy Crossbowx2 = 25 damage (50 total)
Hand Crossbowx3= 31 damage (52 total)
So after 2 turns the hand crossbow man is ahead and he will get further ahead every round he does not have to move the Hunters Mark, however the Hunters Mark will rarely stay on one enemy for 3 rounds and if he has to move it on round 3 he is behind again:
Round 3 (Moving HM)
HM+Heavy Crossbowx2 = 25 damage (75 total)
HM + Hand Crossbowx2 =21 damage (73 total)
When you consider needing to recast due to concentration and moving it because an enemy dies or flees you will not pull much if any ahead of heavy crossbow guy and that is using all of your bonus actions while Heavy guy has some bonus actions for other things. Given this and the better range, I think Heavy Crossbow+HM will generally be more effective than Hand Crossbow+HM as a basic combat tactic.
heres a few things to consider...
from repeating shot
this section that i set in bold and underlines shows that the weapon itself produces the ammunition. the weapon wouldn't produce the ammunition in your hand. it would produce it into itself.
also... jeremy crawford in Dragon+ magasin said the artificer repeating shot made the ammunition load itself. hence it ignores the loading property and do not require a free hand to load the weapon. because the ammunition appears set in the weapon itself. can't find the dragon+ magasin but its on sageadvice.eu
secondly...
hand crossbows are light weapons, thus can be dual wielded.
along with repeating shots, both hand crossbows becomes automatic loading weapons that can be both fired every rounds. allowing you to have 3 attacks per rounds.
i'll say... always playing per RAW, you miss on a lot of good interactions that were meant to be.
you also inadvertedly, start "Interpretting" your own version of it. because some words rings different for one then to another. thus there is no real RAW.
there is always RAI per people reading the ability. aka why there are still DMs in this game, because each DMs interprets the rules differently. so are each players. reinforcing the need for DMs to manage the players.
by RAW... i'd say the repeating shot actually loads the weapons itself if you dont give it ammunition. for the text itself refers to the weapon by saying "IT" produce its own ammunition.
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games
--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
The rules for two weapon fighting state the weapons need to be light melee weapons. You can throw them (if they have the thrown property) but it does not work with ranged weapons.
Specific rules: When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand. You don’t add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative. If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack with it.
To fire a hand crossbow as a bonus action you need to have the crossbow expert feat. If you have the crossbow expert feat you do not need repeating crossbows, you only need one crossbow.
All you need is the crossbow expert feat (and extra attack) to fire three rounds in a turn with ONE hand crossbow. You do not need to dual wield.
RAW one hand crossbow with the crossbow expert feat and you can fire twice as an action and once as a bonus action. You do not need a repeating crossbow for that, you can use a normal non-magical crossbow and anyone with the feat can do it.
If you accept your interpretaion/houserule for the repeating crossbow not requiring a free hand you could do it while holding a shield or a spell focus or anything else but you would not need 2 crossbows to do this, and 2 crossbows would be a waste even with that interpretation as anyone with the crossbow expert feat and extra attack can get 3 attacks without dual wielding.
The ammunition property does not state that you need a free hand to fire a a weapon with the property. It states:
Ammunition. You can use a weapon that has the ammunition property to make a ranged attack only if you have ammunition to fire from the weapon. Each time you attack with the weapon, you expend one piece of ammunition. Drawing the ammunition from a quiver, case, or other container is part of the attack (you need a free hand to load a one-handed weapon). At the end of the battle, you can recover half your expended ammunition by taking a minute to search the battlefield.
The property only requires you use ammunition and provides you can draw and load it as part of the attack with a free hand. In any instance which you do not need to manually replenish the ammunition it follows you do not need a free hand. The only requirement is that you spend one piece of ammunition per attack.
But you don’t need to wield two hand crossbow to attack 3x times at level 5. CBE feat circumvent the whole loading problem. Which means you can attack as much as you can by the actions you have available. For instance, if you are a Fighter with Action Surge, you can attack 4x times with a crossbow. Plus if you are wielding a hand crossbow, you can also attack with your bonus action.
look at the bolded and underlined part from your post above.