Hopefully Joining a semi-casual table, some optimization expected - but not munchkining/hyper optimizing. Starting at level 10, doing some grand Forgotten Realms book style dungeon crawl adventure. (I think it is based of the FR books, basic known plot points sound like a few different books stitched together.) I don't know what the other 3 players will be playing, but it will be a mix of good, and non-evil alignments. (no murder hobos.) And it will be mostly core rulesets.
I'm going with a V-Human (History, Elvish, Sharpshooter) Haunted One (Arcana and Survival, Undercommon, and Draconic, I guess) starting off as Rogue/Fighter [Scout-Village Guard] in his background, who spent time tracking and hunting (gaining Gloom Stalker) down some monsters that killed most of his village. Then later on picked up a bit of divine commitment at the closing of his hunt (and frankly, because I can't live without Ritual Detect Magic, and Guidance.)
Rogue : Proficiencies taking Stealth, Perception, Investigation, and Sleight of Hand; with Expertise in the first two (because .... you know.)
Battle Master : Grabbing Superior Technique (/w Tactical Assessment) fighting style; as well as Ambuhs, Trip Attack, and Precision Attack for maneuvers. And +Dex/+Dex for ASI at lvl 4.
Gloom Stalker : Taking Archery, and Monstrosities for favored enemy, Sylvan (or maybe Primordial???) and Forest. Not that any of that except Archery will matter much. Spells: Fog Cloud, Speak with Animals, and Zephyr Strike (which will get replaced with Cunning Action in 3 ish levels, and will be switched out for ... ? Alarm? Hail of Thorns?)
Twilight : Spells: Guidance, Sacred Flame, and Thaumaturgy cantrips. With Bless, Detect Magic, and Healing Word for 1st level.
And any subsequent levels going Fighter (ASI 6th lvl), Ranger (ASI 4th lvl) , Rogue (Cunning Action), then the rest into Fighter most likely. I don't know the actual progression rate that the DM is planning.
And then 2 common, 2 uncommon, and 1 rare item. NO attunement items allowed tho - so I'm thinking:
- Cloak of Many Fashions and see if I can convince the DM to let me change it to various camouflaging patterns for hide bonus? - Clockwork Amulet
- Bag of Tricks (not sure which.) - Bag of Holding (since I'll have lower strength score and I do not want to have other people carry my stuff for me...)
- +2 Longbow
Does that feel munchkin at all? Any other suggestions for magic item options, or in general?
Generally, most people consider builds with more than 2 multiclasses to be "munchkin/hyper-optimized", but that might be fine depending on how your own DM defines those terms.
Assuming that's not an issue however,
Your build seems very optimized as is. Bless + Archery + Precision Shot + Sharpshooter has been well-attested to be good. Really the only thing you don't have offensively is Elven Accuracy, which with the right race you could get as soon as next level. Although that's probably overkill.
I might instead consider looking at your defenses, AC 16 means you're more likely to get hit than not at level 10, and +2 CON saves means you're likely to drop bless if the DM targets your character with multiple attacks. Your main defense right now is Umbral Sight (invisibility) from Gloom Stalker which only works in darkness, and outside of that you seem pretty vulnerable to ranged attacks. Depending on your party and the enemies you fight this might be more or less of an issue.
But again, first and foremost, I'd check with your DM. I don't know what your table defines as hyper-optimized, but you are, after all, playing 4-classes, 2 of which are level 1 dips, which includes twilight cleric, and all of your magic items seems to be more practical than story.
edit: I realize this post was made a week ago, so this post is probably too late. Oops, I still hope I provided some useful insights anyways.
1. I believe you are limited to 3 classes when you multiclass. I could be wrong about that.
2. I would strongly recommend quick toss as one of your battlemaster maneuvers for three reasons. First you can use quick toss to toss a net (no disadvantage or cover due to sharpshooter) then that gives you advantage on your follow up shots with your bow and all your allies get advantage until the enemy does slashing damage or burns an action to remove it. This is strictly better than precision unless your target is too big for a net. Second, quick toss will allow you to cast a spell and get in a sneak attack on the same turn. Finally you can use darts with quicktoss and get the -5/+10 from sharpshooter which is basically a 3rd +10 damage attack in a turn. Add this to action surge and dread ambusher and you could pump out 7 attacks in a Nova round doing 1d4+9d8+1d6+70+dexX7 total damage (assuming all hit). You can do this at 10th level using only one of your battlemaster dice.
3. I would consider canning the cleric all together and going to Ranger level 4 with Druidic Warrior as your fighting style and pick up guidance that way. Then you can also start with another feat, which you could do Fey Touched with bless if you really think you need bless, while also boosting wisdom.
4. Speaking of Bless, I don't particularly like it on this build. Dread Ambusher only works on the first round of combat and bless is most effective when cast on the first round of combat. You could action surge to get in both bless and Dread Ambusher in, but that is once per short rest and you are giving up 3 attacks you would get if you attacked with it instead.
5. If you are taking superior technique I would consider Arcane Archer instead of Battlemaster. Grasping Arrow is no save and is generally more powerful than the battlemaster maneuvers. Also the 7th level feature is going to help a lot with sharpshooter. If you did this though I would consider the martial adept feat as well to get 2 dice and 3 maneuvers per short rest.
5. Gauntlets of Ogre Power are uncommon and work really well on an 8 strength character.
6. I would not use trip attack on an Archer. Proning an enemy will give you disadvantage. Get menacing attack instead as that will prevent the enemy from closing into melee range with you.
"Generally, most people consider builds with more than 2 multiclasses to be "munchkin/hyper-optimized", but that might be fine depending on how your own DM defines those terms."
I've seen people do the whole coffeelock, and Sorcadin/Palalock enough that I didn't think anything beyond 2 (maybe 3) classes would be munchkining....I just wanted a well-rounded character with some potential to do lots of different things - maybe not great at all of them, but good enough to just not ever be useless. Maybe that's one definition of munchkin/optimizing?
"Your build seems very optimized as is. Bless + Archery + Precision Shot + Sharpshooter has been well-attested to be good. Really the only thing you don't have offensively is Elven Accuracy, which with the right race you could get as soon as next level. Although that's probably overkill."
Well, maybe it is a little bit. Yea, I could have taken elf/half-elf and Elven Accuracy - but it felt a little....self-serving at that point. With regards to Sharpshooter, not many other options to really take? Alert? I guess just going into Half-Elf would be ok and ignore the feat to 'de-' optimize a little? I don't want to be weak though.
"I might instead consider looking at your defenses, AC 16 means you're more likely to get hit than not at level 10, and +2 CON saves means you're likely to drop bless if the DM targets your character with multiple attacks. Your main defense right now is Umbral Sight (invisibility) from Gloom Stalker which only works in darkness, and outside of that you seem pretty vulnerable to ranged attacks. Depending on your party and the enemies you fight this might be more or less of an issue."
Well, I hope my party brings a tank or two :D ; so there's a non-optimized point for me right there!
"But again, first and foremost, I'd check with your DM. I don't know what your table defines as hyper-optimized, but you are, after all, playing 4-classes, 2 of which are level 1 dips, which includes twilight cleric, and all of your magic items seems to be more practical than story."
I'm not that great at the actual RP part of it...so I'm gonna be a little bit more practical, in general. Knowing two of the other players already, I already expect them to bring actual munchkins, and I'm sure one is going Hexsorc, or Palalock, ; or similar and the other probably is going to Wizard it. The 4th player is a little newer, and from briefly talking with them seems focused on being a front-line tanking cleric of some sort.
"edit: I realize this post was made a week ago, so this post is probably too late. Oops, I still hope I provided some useful insights anyways."
Got two weeks to go still, till session 0.5... if ...we all show up. *crosses fingers*.
"1. I believe you are limited to 3 classes when you multiclass. I could be wrong about that."
AFAIK (and googling it,) I don't believe there is a limit. Expecially since DNDBeyond lets you do allllll the classes if you want and it's pretty hard on the rules for those things.
"2. I would strongly recommend quick toss as one of your battlemaster maneuvers for three reasons. First you can use quick toss to toss a net (no disadvantage or cover due to sharpshooter) then that gives you advantage on your follow up shots with your bow and all your allies get advantage until the enemy does slashing damage or burns an action to remove it. This is strictly better than precision unless your target is too big for a net. Second, quick toss will allow you to cast a spell and get in a sneak attack on the same turn. Finally you can use darts with quicktoss and get the -5/+10 from sharpshooter which is basically a 3rd +10 damage attack in a turn. Add this to action surge and dread ambusher and you could pump out 7 attacks in a Nova round doing 1d4+9d8+1d6+70+dexX7 total damage (assuming all hit). You can do this at 10th level using only one of your battlemaster dice."
"6. I would not use trip attack on an Archer. Proning an enemy will give you disadvantage. Get menacing attack instead as that will prevent the enemy from closing into melee range with you."
Hmmm, I've never considered that method before. That's pretty damn good actually, for Bonus Action use (which would otherwise be limited uses of Z-strike and Healing Word.) The 15ft is a bit of a problem though, but the Darts part seems really good. Not sure how that compares to Zephyr Strike. But when you run out of spells, at least the option is there for quick toss. I'll keep that in mind. I guess dropping Trip Attack is the right choice there - while it could help my teammates, I do like the added extra bonus action option. Done and done. Menacing attack, I would like to pick that up for sure at 7th (if...)
"3. I would consider canning the cleric all together and going to Ranger level 4 with Druidic Warrior as your fighting style and pick up guidance that way. Then you can also start with another feat, which you could do Fey Touched with bless if you really think you need bless, while also boosting wisdom."
Twilight 1 is just, I think, to front loaded to not have. You get the advantage on initiative for basically every encounter; plus cantrips and some 1st level spells (did I mention they are all pretty good spells? Especially being able to Ritual Detect Magic, which in previous campaigns, I've found to be a very powerful too. However, maybe dropping Cleric for another level in Ranger to get that Fey or Shadow Touch (ooh, Invisibility?!?) isn't an awful idea? But... I think TC1 outweighs that pretty heavily. And the extra darkvision range.
"4. Speaking of Bless, I don't particularly like it on this build. Dread Ambusher only works on the first round of combat and bless is most effective when cast on the first round of combat. You could action surge to get in both bless and Dread Ambusher in, but that is once per short rest and you are giving up 3 attacks you would get if you attacked with it instead."
Bless is just the old stand-in, not sure what to otherwise take. Shield of Faith maybe? Or I would use it after the first round , though I'll have to see how the DM likes to handle encounters, and how long they may last.
"5. If you are taking superior technique I would consider Arcane Archer instead of Battlemaster. Grasping Arrow is no save and is generally more powerful than the battlemaster maneuvers. Also the 7th level feature is going to help a lot with sharpshooter. If you did this though I would consider the martial adept feat as well to get 2 dice and 3 maneuvers per short rest."
Arcane Archer feels a little bit odd to me. I'd rather just keep the Battlemaster, I really like Ambush, and Precision Shot options when going for ambushes.
"5. Gauntlets of Ogre Power are uncommon and work really well on an 8 strength character."
I hope I get a pair, but it's an attuned item, and we aren't allowed to start with those. But maybe I will switch str and dex. Seems weird for my character to be physically weaker than average given their backstory?
"3. I would consider canning the cleric all together and going to Ranger level 4 with Druidic Warrior as your fighting style and pick up guidance that way. Then you can also start with another feat, which you could do Fey Touched with bless if you really think you need bless, while also boosting wisdom."
Twilight 1 is just, I think, to front loaded to not have. You get the advantage on initiative for basically every encounter; plus cantrips and some 1st level spells (did I mention they are all pretty good spells? Especially being able to Ritual Detect Magic, which in previous campaigns, I've found to be a very powerful too. However, maybe dropping Cleric for another level in Ranger to get that Fey or Shadow Touch (ooh, Invisibility?!?) isn't an awful idea? But... I think TC1 outweighs that pretty heavily. And the extra darkvision range. "
This just sounds like hyper optimization which is what you were trying to avoid. Taking a one or two level dip into TC because of how front loaded is the definition of a hyper optimized build. The tri classed BM/Gloom/Rogue as an archer is already a hyper optimized build. If that is what you are trying to avoid then as a DM I would say you aren't succeeding. My recommendation is to knock it down to a dual class.
One thing to help play nice at the table, consider with battlemaster taking commander's strike. In parcticular if you have a rogue in the party.
I think the worst part here is that you have taken 3 of the more powerful and fun subclasses off the board (BM, GS, TC). Each of these is powerful enough in its own right, but if someone else wants to play them then you will be stepping on their toes.
Eh I wouldn't worry too much about "taking the best subclasses". It seems like most of your party already knows what they're playing and it's not like you can only have 1 person of the same subclass.
From the looks of it it looks like you all choose your classes and stuff independently anyways.
Even if the other cleric player went Twilight Cleric, they would only be losing out on the value of Eyes of Night (since you can't benefit from two darkvisions), which is probably the least important part of Twilight Cleric.
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if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
Twilight 1 is just, I think, to front loaded to not have. You get the advantage on initiative for basically every encounter; plus cantrips and some 1st level spells (did I mention they are all pretty good spells? Especially being able to Ritual Detect Magic, which in previous campaigns, I've found to be a very powerful too. However, maybe dropping Cleric for another level in Ranger to get that Fey or Shadow Touch (ooh, Invisibility?!?) isn't an awful idea? But... I think TC1 outweighs that pretty heavily. And the extra darkvision range.
If it is a 1-level dip with a 13 Wisdom then you only get 2 spells prepared plus sleep and Faerie Fire. Your Wisdom sucks so Faerie Fire will be a lot less powerful than on most casters and generally will not be worth giving up attacks for. Sleep is not very good at the levels you are starting at. If you want to cast detect magic as a ritual, then that needs to be one of the spells prepared leaving only one other spell prepared. I would take healing word over bless as the other spell but there are not a lot of good options.
I think Misty Step with one free casting plus being known is going to be better than what you get from a 1-level cleric dip, even a twilight cleric dip. If I am the DM I am probably grappling you, and that gives you a bunch of bad options - waste an entire action to TRY to break the grapple, switch to melee and do far less damage or make a ranged attack with disadvantage. The action economy puts this in the enemies favor since they can grapple just by using an attack, while you need to use an entire action to TRY to break the grapple. Misty Step gives you a bonus action to get out of that automatically, plus you can use it to disengage when enemies are just in melee range as well as a slew of out of combat uses.
It's a 14 WIS so it's Bless, Healing Word, and then Detect Magic.
Misty Step is a great spell, I have no argument against that. It is worth noting for grapples you can also break them by just pushing your enemy out of reach of the grapple (like with a shove) and I think this still ties back into your character having weak defenses.
Speaking of grappling, due to multiclassing rules you gain a skill proficiency when you multiclass into ranger. I'd probably advise to find a way to put it in either acrobatics or athletics. If you haven't already you can also look at the TCoE alternate ranger features.
Either way do whatever you think is best for you Cleric - Bless, Healing Word, Detect Magic, Sleep (ranged nonlethal damage, very niche ngl), adv on initiative, greater darkvision for whole party, additional spell slots.
Ranger - Additional feat (Fey Touched means you can reallocate more point buy points towards STR, Misty Step + Bless), +1 hp, overall, more elegant.
It's a 14 WIS so it's Bless, Healing Word, and then Detect Magic.
At the level he is at I would probably take protection from evil and good over bless.
Misty Step is a great spell, I have no argument against that. It is worth noting for grapples you can also break them by just pushing your enemy out of reach of the grapple (like with a shove) and I think this still ties back into your character having weak defenses.
But he is running an 8 strength, so unless he puts expertise in athletics, he is usually going to lose that contest.
Speaking of grappling, due to multiclassing rules you gain a skill proficiency when you multiclass into ranger. I'd probably advise to find a way to put it in either acrobatics or athletics. If you haven't already you can also look at the TCoE alternate ranger features.
Acrobatics would be better IMO, unless he also puts expertise there. Regular proficiency is not going to be enough to reliably beat grapples with strength.
This build is a little cheesey. Gloom stalker with action surge, with sharp shooter and archery fighting style and precision attack means this build has one hell of a round 1.
With expertise from rogue and possibly deft explorer, this build is really good from a skill monkey point of view.
Then the Twilight cleric is just overkill. Bro, you're gonna crush it already with the aforementioned, you can step off the gas.
Talked to my DM, he's open to me adjusting my character to fit with what the other players are going with, so it might go up, it might go down.
I can always build optimized, and play un-optimized. I suck at puzzles anyway, and I know this DM likes to put in puzzles...so I'm a nerf dart already.
One day, I will play D&D again....it just isn't...this day, or the next, or .... in the near future it seems until I a but ash and dust, and roll dice in the next life....
One day, I will play D&D again....it just isn't...this day, or the next, or .... in the near future it seems until I a but ash and dust, and roll dice in the next life....
Such is life. This here is real DnD. Few are the campaigns that go the distance and actually see an ending.
One day, I will play D&D again....it just isn't...this day, or the next, or .... in the near future it seems until I a but ash and dust, and roll dice in the next life....
Such is life. This here is real DnD. Few are the campaigns that go the distance and actually see an ending.
One day, I will play D&D again....it just isn't...this day, or the next, or .... in the near future it seems until I a but ash and dust, and roll dice in the next life....
Such is life. This here is real DnD. Few are the campaigns that go the distance and actually see an ending.
You should look into online AL play.
Totally been trying to find any online or in person dnd .... at this point, I'm tempted to replay baldurs gate for the (checks notes) .... way too manyeth time.
Totally been trying to find any online or in person dnd .... at this point, I'm tempted to replay baldurs gate for the (checks notes) .... way too manyeth time.
After playing many games that either were awful or where players did not show up or whatever, I decided to do paid games. IME paid games are worth what you pay because you only get other players that want to play and the cost is pretty small. The DMs also generally pay for all the books you need. Everyone has skin in the game.
startplayinggames.com is where I went to find games, it makes the payment process really easy.
I was intimidated the first time, but I made an account found a DM with good reviews and a game and theme at a time I wanted and messaged them.
One day, I will play D&D again....it just isn't...this day, or the next, or .... in the near future it seems until I a but ash and dust, and roll dice in the next life....
Sorry to hear that. Its always disappointing when these things don't make it.
Totally been trying to find any online or in person dnd .... at this point, I'm tempted to replay baldurs gate for the (checks notes) .... way too manyeth time.
After playing many games that either were awful or where players did not show up or whatever, I decided to do paid games. IME paid games are worth what you pay because you only get other players that want to play and the cost is pretty small. The DMs also generally pay for all the books you need. Everyone has skin in the game.
startplayinggames.com is where I went to find games, it makes the payment process really easy.
I was intimidated the first time, but I made an account found a DM with good reviews and a game and theme at a time I wanted and messaged them.
I will look into that, thank you.
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2014 5E mostly
3.5 maybe.
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Hopefully Joining a semi-casual table, some optimization expected - but not munchkining/hyper optimizing. Starting at level 10, doing some grand Forgotten Realms book style dungeon crawl adventure. (I think it is based of the FR books, basic known plot points sound like a few different books stitched together.) I don't know what the other 3 players will be playing, but it will be a mix of good, and non-evil alignments. (no murder hobos.) And it will be mostly core rulesets.
I'm going with a V-Human (History, Elvish, Sharpshooter) Haunted One (Arcana and Survival, Undercommon, and Draconic, I guess) starting off as Rogue/Fighter [Scout-Village Guard] in his background, who spent time tracking and hunting (gaining Gloom Stalker) down some monsters that killed most of his village. Then later on picked up a bit of divine commitment at the closing of his hunt (and frankly, because I can't live without Ritual Detect Magic, and Guidance.)
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Rogue : Proficiencies taking Stealth, Perception, Investigation, and Sleight of Hand; with Expertise in the first two (because .... you know.)
Battle Master : Grabbing Superior Technique (/w Tactical Assessment) fighting style; as well as Ambuhs, Trip Attack, and Precision Attack for maneuvers. And +Dex/+Dex for ASI at lvl 4.
Gloom Stalker : Taking Archery, and Monstrosities for favored enemy, Sylvan (or maybe Primordial???) and Forest. Not that any of that except Archery will matter much. Spells: Fog Cloud, Speak with Animals, and Zephyr Strike (which will get replaced with Cunning Action in 3 ish levels, and will be switched out for ... ? Alarm? Hail of Thorns?)
Twilight : Spells: Guidance, Sacred Flame, and Thaumaturgy cantrips. With Bless, Detect Magic, and Healing Word for 1st level.
And any subsequent levels going Fighter (ASI 6th lvl), Ranger (ASI 4th lvl) , Rogue (Cunning Action), then the rest into Fighter most likely. I don't know the actual progression rate that the DM is planning.
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Starting off with standard array at 8/15/14/12/13/10 ; and going to 8/18/14/12/14/10 after ASIs. Altho, I'm thinking of switching Str and Cha around.
Basic gear, Studded Leather, Shield, Rapier,
Longbow, daggers. And basic trail gear, rope, pitons, lockpicks, etc...And then 2 common, 2 uncommon, and 1 rare item. NO attunement items allowed tho - so I'm thinking:
- Cloak of Many Fashions and see if I can convince the DM to let me change it to various camouflaging patterns for hide bonus?
- Clockwork Amulet
- Bag of Tricks (not sure which.)
- Bag of Holding (since I'll have lower strength score and I do not want to have other people carry my stuff for me...)
- +2 Longbow
Does that feel munchkin at all? Any other suggestions for magic item options, or in general?
2014 5E mostly
3.5 maybe.
Generally, most people consider builds with more than 2 multiclasses to be "munchkin/hyper-optimized", but that might be fine depending on how your own DM defines those terms.
Assuming that's not an issue however,
Your build seems very optimized as is. Bless + Archery + Precision Shot + Sharpshooter has been well-attested to be good. Really the only thing you don't have offensively is Elven Accuracy, which with the right race you could get as soon as next level. Although that's probably overkill.
I might instead consider looking at your defenses, AC 16 means you're more likely to get hit than not at level 10, and +2 CON saves means you're likely to drop bless if the DM targets your character with multiple attacks. Your main defense right now is Umbral Sight (invisibility) from Gloom Stalker which only works in darkness, and outside of that you seem pretty vulnerable to ranged attacks.
Depending on your party and the enemies you fight this might be more or less of an issue.
But again, first and foremost, I'd check with your DM. I don't know what your table defines as hyper-optimized, but you are, after all, playing 4-classes, 2 of which are level 1 dips, which includes twilight cleric, and all of your magic items seems to be more practical than story.
edit: I realize this post was made a week ago, so this post is probably too late. Oops, I still hope I provided some useful insights anyways.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
Here are some comments:
1. I believe you are limited to 3 classes when you multiclass. I could be wrong about that.
2. I would strongly recommend quick toss as one of your battlemaster maneuvers for three reasons. First you can use quick toss to toss a net (no disadvantage or cover due to sharpshooter) then that gives you advantage on your follow up shots with your bow and all your allies get advantage until the enemy does slashing damage or burns an action to remove it. This is strictly better than precision unless your target is too big for a net. Second, quick toss will allow you to cast a spell and get in a sneak attack on the same turn. Finally you can use darts with quicktoss and get the -5/+10 from sharpshooter which is basically a 3rd +10 damage attack in a turn. Add this to action surge and dread ambusher and you could pump out 7 attacks in a Nova round doing 1d4+9d8+1d6+70+dexX7 total damage (assuming all hit). You can do this at 10th level using only one of your battlemaster dice.
3. I would consider canning the cleric all together and going to Ranger level 4 with Druidic Warrior as your fighting style and pick up guidance that way. Then you can also start with another feat, which you could do Fey Touched with bless if you really think you need bless, while also boosting wisdom.
4. Speaking of Bless, I don't particularly like it on this build. Dread Ambusher only works on the first round of combat and bless is most effective when cast on the first round of combat. You could action surge to get in both bless and Dread Ambusher in, but that is once per short rest and you are giving up 3 attacks you would get if you attacked with it instead.
5. If you are taking superior technique I would consider Arcane Archer instead of Battlemaster. Grasping Arrow is no save and is generally more powerful than the battlemaster maneuvers. Also the 7th level feature is going to help a lot with sharpshooter. If you did this though I would consider the martial adept feat as well to get 2 dice and 3 maneuvers per short rest.
5. Gauntlets of Ogre Power are uncommon and work really well on an 8 strength character.
6. I would not use trip attack on an Archer. Proning an enemy will give you disadvantage. Get menacing attack instead as that will prevent the enemy from closing into melee range with you.
Some info to digest - thanks for the comments.
"Generally, most people consider builds with more than 2 multiclasses to be "munchkin/hyper-optimized", but that might be fine depending on how your own DM defines those terms."
I've seen people do the whole coffeelock, and Sorcadin/Palalock enough that I didn't think anything beyond 2 (maybe 3) classes would be munchkining....I just wanted a well-rounded character with some potential to do lots of different things - maybe not great at all of them, but good enough to just not ever be useless. Maybe that's one definition of munchkin/optimizing?
"Your build seems very optimized as is. Bless + Archery + Precision Shot + Sharpshooter has been well-attested to be good. Really the only thing you don't have offensively is Elven Accuracy, which with the right race you could get as soon as next level. Although that's probably overkill."
Well, maybe it is a little bit. Yea, I could have taken elf/half-elf and Elven Accuracy - but it felt a little....self-serving at that point. With regards to Sharpshooter, not many other options to really take? Alert? I guess just going into Half-Elf would be ok and ignore the feat to 'de-' optimize a little? I don't want to be weak though.
"I might instead consider looking at your defenses, AC 16 means you're more likely to get hit than not at level 10, and +2 CON saves means you're likely to drop bless if the DM targets your character with multiple attacks. Your main defense right now is Umbral Sight (invisibility) from Gloom Stalker which only works in darkness, and outside of that you seem pretty vulnerable to ranged attacks.
Depending on your party and the enemies you fight this might be more or less of an issue."
Well, I hope my party brings a tank or two :D ; so there's a non-optimized point for me right there!
"But again, first and foremost, I'd check with your DM. I don't know what your table defines as hyper-optimized, but you are, after all, playing 4-classes, 2 of which are level 1 dips, which includes twilight cleric, and all of your magic items seems to be more practical than story."
I'm not that great at the actual RP part of it...so I'm gonna be a little bit more practical, in general. Knowing two of the other players already, I already expect them to bring actual munchkins, and I'm sure one is going Hexsorc, or Palalock, ; or similar and the other probably is going to Wizard it. The 4th player is a little newer, and from briefly talking with them seems focused on being a front-line tanking cleric of some sort.
"edit: I realize this post was made a week ago, so this post is probably too late. Oops, I still hope I provided some useful insights anyways."
Got two weeks to go still, till session 0.5... if ...we all show up. *crosses fingers*.
"1. I believe you are limited to 3 classes when you multiclass. I could be wrong about that."
AFAIK (and googling it,) I don't believe there is a limit. Expecially since DNDBeyond lets you do allllll the classes if you want and it's pretty hard on the rules for those things.
"2. I would strongly recommend quick toss as one of your battlemaster maneuvers for three reasons. First you can use quick toss to toss a net (no disadvantage or cover due to sharpshooter) then that gives you advantage on your follow up shots with your bow and all your allies get advantage until the enemy does slashing damage or burns an action to remove it. This is strictly better than precision unless your target is too big for a net. Second, quick toss will allow you to cast a spell and get in a sneak attack on the same turn. Finally you can use darts with quicktoss and get the -5/+10 from sharpshooter which is basically a 3rd +10 damage attack in a turn. Add this to action surge and dread ambusher and you could pump out 7 attacks in a Nova round doing 1d4+9d8+1d6+70+dexX7 total damage (assuming all hit). You can do this at 10th level using only one of your battlemaster dice."
"6. I would not use trip attack on an Archer. Proning an enemy will give you disadvantage. Get menacing attack instead as that will prevent the enemy from closing into melee range with you."
Hmmm, I've never considered that method before. That's pretty damn good actually, for Bonus Action use (which would otherwise be limited uses of Z-strike and Healing Word.) The 15ft is a bit of a problem though, but the Darts part seems really good. Not sure how that compares to Zephyr Strike. But when you run out of spells, at least the option is there for quick toss. I'll keep that in mind. I guess dropping Trip Attack is the right choice there - while it could help my teammates, I do like the added extra bonus action option. Done and done. Menacing attack, I would like to pick that up for sure at 7th (if...)
"3. I would consider canning the cleric all together and going to Ranger level 4 with Druidic Warrior as your fighting style and pick up guidance that way. Then you can also start with another feat, which you could do Fey Touched with bless if you really think you need bless, while also boosting wisdom."
Twilight 1 is just, I think, to front loaded to not have. You get the advantage on initiative for basically every encounter; plus cantrips and some 1st level spells (did I mention they are all pretty good spells? Especially being able to Ritual Detect Magic, which in previous campaigns, I've found to be a very powerful too. However, maybe dropping Cleric for another level in Ranger to get that Fey or Shadow Touch (ooh, Invisibility?!?) isn't an awful idea? But... I think TC1 outweighs that pretty heavily. And the extra darkvision range.
"4. Speaking of Bless, I don't particularly like it on this build. Dread Ambusher only works on the first round of combat and bless is most effective when cast on the first round of combat. You could action surge to get in both bless and Dread Ambusher in, but that is once per short rest and you are giving up 3 attacks you would get if you attacked with it instead."
Bless is just the old stand-in, not sure what to otherwise take. Shield of Faith maybe? Or I would use it after the first round , though I'll have to see how the DM likes to handle encounters, and how long they may last.
"5. If you are taking superior technique I would consider Arcane Archer instead of Battlemaster. Grasping Arrow is no save and is generally more powerful than the battlemaster maneuvers. Also the 7th level feature is going to help a lot with sharpshooter. If you did this though I would consider the martial adept feat as well to get 2 dice and 3 maneuvers per short rest."
Arcane Archer feels a little bit odd to me. I'd rather just keep the Battlemaster, I really like Ambush, and Precision Shot options when going for ambushes.
"5. Gauntlets of Ogre Power are uncommon and work really well on an 8 strength character."
I hope I get a pair, but it's an attuned item, and we aren't allowed to start with those. But maybe I will switch str and dex. Seems weird for my character to be physically weaker than average given their backstory?
2014 5E mostly
3.5 maybe.
"3. I would consider canning the cleric all together and going to Ranger level 4 with Druidic Warrior as your fighting style and pick up guidance that way. Then you can also start with another feat, which you could do Fey Touched with bless if you really think you need bless, while also boosting wisdom."
Twilight 1 is just, I think, to front loaded to not have. You get the advantage on initiative for basically every encounter; plus cantrips and some 1st level spells (did I mention they are all pretty good spells? Especially being able to Ritual Detect Magic, which in previous campaigns, I've found to be a very powerful too. However, maybe dropping Cleric for another level in Ranger to get that Fey or Shadow Touch (ooh, Invisibility?!?) isn't an awful idea? But... I think TC1 outweighs that pretty heavily. And the extra darkvision range. "
This just sounds like hyper optimization which is what you were trying to avoid. Taking a one or two level dip into TC because of how front loaded is the definition of a hyper optimized build. The tri classed BM/Gloom/Rogue as an archer is already a hyper optimized build. If that is what you are trying to avoid then as a DM I would say you aren't succeeding. My recommendation is to knock it down to a dual class.
One thing to help play nice at the table, consider with battlemaster taking commander's strike. In parcticular if you have a rogue in the party.
I think the worst part here is that you have taken 3 of the more powerful and fun subclasses off the board (BM, GS, TC). Each of these is powerful enough in its own right, but if someone else wants to play them then you will be stepping on their toes.
This is why you should session zero.
Well, I did think they where fun --- oops?
Man, now i just feel bad about my whole decision tree....
2014 5E mostly
3.5 maybe.
Eh I wouldn't worry too much about "taking the best subclasses". It seems like most of your party already knows what they're playing and it's not like you can only have 1 person of the same subclass.
From the looks of it it looks like you all choose your classes and stuff independently anyways.
Even if the other cleric player went Twilight Cleric, they would only be losing out on the value of Eyes of Night (since you can't benefit from two darkvisions), which is probably the least important part of Twilight Cleric.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
If it is a 1-level dip with a 13 Wisdom then you only get 2 spells prepared plus sleep and Faerie Fire. Your Wisdom sucks so Faerie Fire will be a lot less powerful than on most casters and generally will not be worth giving up attacks for. Sleep is not very good at the levels you are starting at. If you want to cast detect magic as a ritual, then that needs to be one of the spells prepared leaving only one other spell prepared. I would take healing word over bless as the other spell but there are not a lot of good options.
I think Misty Step with one free casting plus being known is going to be better than what you get from a 1-level cleric dip, even a twilight cleric dip. If I am the DM I am probably grappling you, and that gives you a bunch of bad options - waste an entire action to TRY to break the grapple, switch to melee and do far less damage or make a ranged attack with disadvantage. The action economy puts this in the enemies favor since they can grapple just by using an attack, while you need to use an entire action to TRY to break the grapple. Misty Step gives you a bonus action to get out of that automatically, plus you can use it to disengage when enemies are just in melee range as well as a slew of out of combat uses.
It's a 14 WIS so it's Bless, Healing Word, and then Detect Magic.
Misty Step is a great spell, I have no argument against that. It is worth noting for grapples you can also break them by just pushing your enemy out of reach of the grapple (like with a shove) and I think this still ties back into your character having weak defenses.
Speaking of grappling, due to multiclassing rules you gain a skill proficiency when you multiclass into ranger. I'd probably advise to find a way to put it in either acrobatics or athletics. If you haven't already you can also look at the TCoE alternate ranger features.
Either way do whatever you think is best for you
Cleric - Bless, Healing Word, Detect Magic, Sleep (ranged nonlethal damage, very niche ngl), adv on initiative, greater darkvision for whole party, additional spell slots.
Ranger - Additional feat (Fey Touched means you can reallocate more point buy points towards STR, Misty Step + Bless), +1 hp, overall, more elegant.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
At the level he is at I would probably take protection from evil and good over bless.
But he is running an 8 strength, so unless he puts expertise in athletics, he is usually going to lose that contest.
Acrobatics would be better IMO, unless he also puts expertise there. Regular proficiency is not going to be enough to reliably beat grapples with strength.
This build is a little cheesey. Gloom stalker with action surge, with sharp shooter and archery fighting style and precision attack means this build has one hell of a round 1.
With expertise from rogue and possibly deft explorer, this build is really good from a skill monkey point of view.
Then the Twilight cleric is just overkill. Bro, you're gonna crush it already with the aforementioned, you can step off the gas.
OK...noted. I will drop TC, pick up 4th level in Ranger, and think about how to go with that.
rip ritual detect magic - finding all the magic items never was so easy...
2014 5E mostly
3.5 maybe.
Talked to my DM, he's open to me adjusting my character to fit with what the other players are going with, so it might go up, it might go down.
I can always build optimized, and play un-optimized. I suck at puzzles anyway, and I know this DM likes to put in puzzles...so I'm a nerf dart already.
2014 5E mostly
3.5 maybe.
Well....
That campaign died already.
One day, I will play D&D again....it just isn't...this day, or the next, or .... in the near future it seems until I a but ash and dust, and roll dice in the next life....
2014 5E mostly
3.5 maybe.
Such is life. This here is real DnD. Few are the campaigns that go the distance and actually see an ending.
You should look into online AL play.
Totally been trying to find any online or in person dnd .... at this point, I'm tempted to replay baldurs gate for the (checks notes) .... way too manyeth time.
2014 5E mostly
3.5 maybe.
After playing many games that either were awful or where players did not show up or whatever, I decided to do paid games. IME paid games are worth what you pay because you only get other players that want to play and the cost is pretty small. The DMs also generally pay for all the books you need. Everyone has skin in the game.
startplayinggames.com is where I went to find games, it makes the payment process really easy.
I was intimidated the first time, but I made an account found a DM with good reviews and a game and theme at a time I wanted and messaged them.
Sorry to hear that. Its always disappointing when these things don't make it.
I will look into that, thank you.
2014 5E mostly
3.5 maybe.