I know everyone lusts over the Gloomstalker and their 3 attacks and an extra d8 1st round at level 5. Yeah first round they do 4d8 and 3d6 so average 25 the opener. But it drops to 2d8 and 2d6 or 14/rd on average.
but the swarmkeeper is doing 1d8 on attack 1&2 plus 1d6 on attack 1&2 with hunters mark and another 1d6 with the swarm so if all hit an average of 17/rd.
from a damage output perspective seems pretty close no? Am I missing something? Some fun role play and tactical options with the swarm I think make up for the drop in first round damage and the darkness benefits.
You already know that they have free invisibility from creatures using darkvision to see in dark environments (so in dark domains without light or at night, your character could sneak past ordinary people quite effectively which has a lot of roleplay options)? The extra saving throw prof is nice, potentially putting you at four saving throw profs (and thus making you harder to take out of a fight) if you use a feat to gain another. The ability to also reroll a missed attack at higher levels is also nice.
Also, the Swarmkeeper only has their swarm attack "once per each of your turns". That said, the fact that your character can be moved by the swarm a short distance and not trigger AoO is pretty good. Flying speed is good too, even if it's only 10ft and lasts for a minute. Being able to teleport via your swarm is also pretty cool. It's really nice flavour and very fun to play.
That said, when I did build a character, I went Swarmkeeper rather than Gloomstalker.
I'd say both are good enough to make you want them.
Often we only do damage calculations but battle field control,utility, and damage control are just as important. The problem is those categories are hard to standardize for comparison and measurements.
I'd say take what's fun but don't be afraid of the others.
Because combats are (typically) short, Gloomstalkers are desirable because you front-load your damage and Dread Ambusher combos extremely well when multiclassing Fighter for Action Surge.
If I were playing a Swarmkeeper I probably wouldn't be playing purely for attacking every turn and would instead be looking to utilize area control spells like Web/Spike Growth and the ability to push things around with the swarm.
I've been playing a Swarmkeeper recently, and while the added damage is nice, the ability to shunt myself 5 feet is way more valuable in practice, especially as I'm using a glaive with Polearm Master, so being able to effectively Disengage for "free" and force an enemy to come to me (and trigger my reaction attack) is way more valuable than a little bit of extra damage most of the time.
Pushing an enemy or combining with thorn whip (from druidic warrior) for a long distance pull is also a great option.
The damage is nice, but it's the option I use when the other two can't help me more.
I also love getting mage hand for free; getting a free cantrip is an easy feature to overlook, but considering Rangers get a grand total of none as standard it's actually a pretty big deal, it's also a big reason why druidic warrior is a very tough option to pass up for the fighting style as every extra cantrip is a big deal to me. I regularly use it to carry a torch to overcome a lack of darkvision, without limiting my ability to fight (though I have to be wary of positioning if I need to move a lot), as well as access things I can't otherwise get at.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I believe Swarmkeeper main strength is their controlling capabilities as the folks said above. Web is one of the best spells ever, Spike Growth is also awesome and both pair really well with the ability of moving things around. Glook Stalker are the DPR kings.
I believe Swarmkeep is a mixed bag of abilities but can compete with the Gloom Stalker. Hear me out.
Gloom Stalker (GS): initiative bonus, extra attacks, movement (10ft), and extra damage at the start of combat, a means to gain advantage including means to impose disadvantage
Swarmkeeps (SK). Movement (5ft), extra damage, or control every turn, means to gain advantage (faerie fire), Utility cantrip.
Both at level 3. However, I believe that the versatility of the SK can exceed what the GS can produce. Damage? If the situation is correct pushing a foe 15ft off a cliff is +20D6 damage per foe. Giving your full team advantage? far better they just yourself (looking at you rogues), free disengage per hit vs invisability in darkness (conditional).
Long game the SK has more sustainment then the GS. At level 17, lets take the fall damage for example. both characters jump from a 60ft buring building. the gloom stakers takes the normal 20d6. The SK stabs themself with a knife (taking damage) around 25ft from the bottom, taking dagger damage/2 and moving an additional 30 ft not impacting the ground. Never mind the "free disengage" now give them a second shield (half cover =+2 AC and Dex) or that flight trivizes melee foes.
GS are built for raw damage. Fast, effective and ending fights before they begin. SK are there for versitlity and to debuff the enemies, and add extra damage through a variety of means.
I believe Swarmkeep is a mixed bag of abilities but can compete with the Gloom Stalker. Hear me out.
Gloom Stalker (GS): initiative bonus, extra attacks, movement (10ft), and extra damage at the start of combat, a means to gain advantage including means to impose disadvantage
Swarmkeeps (SK). Movement (5ft), extra damage, or control every turn, means to gain advantage (faerie fire), Utility cantrip.
Both at level 3. However, I believe that the versatility of the SK can exceed what the GS can produce. Damage? If the situation is correct pushing a foe 15ft off a cliff is +20D6 damage per foe. Giving your full team advantage? far better they just yourself (looking at you rogues), free disengage per hit vs invisability in darkness (conditional).
Long game the SK has more sustainment then the GS. At level 17, lets take the fall damage for example. both characters jump from a 60ft buring building. the gloom stakers takes the normal 20d6. The SK stabs themself with a knife (taking damage) around 25ft from the bottom, taking dagger damage/2 and moving an additional 30 ft not impacting the ground. Never mind the "free disengage" now give them a second shield (half cover =+2 AC and Dex) or that flight trivizes melee foes.
GS are built for raw damage. Fast, effective and ending fights before they begin. SK are there for versitlity and to debuff the enemies, and add extra damage through a variety of means.
Using Xanathar's Guide to Everything you fall 500 feet per round . Given that rate of falling is it possible to damage your self when you less then 30 feet above the ground ?
Even though original post was specifically about the damage component (and considering it was posted months ago so it's kinda pointless to add now), for me personally the swarmkeeper option has been generally more fun. Specifically deciding what the swarm is comprised of. Options are practically unlimited. I've done the usual (bees and such) but I've also had a swarm created from emotional anger my character was feeling at the time. Also a time I took the "spirit of each of my party's best qualities" and combined them for my swarm. Current campaign will go for another year or so and I'm looking forward to what I can come up with.
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I know everyone lusts over the Gloomstalker and their 3 attacks and an extra d8 1st round at level 5. Yeah first round they do 4d8 and 3d6 so average 25 the opener. But it drops to 2d8 and 2d6 or 14/rd on average.
but the swarmkeeper is doing 1d8 on attack 1&2 plus 1d6 on attack 1&2 with hunters mark and another 1d6 with the swarm so if all hit an average of 17/rd.
from a damage output perspective seems pretty close no? Am I missing something? Some fun role play and tactical options with the swarm I think make up for the drop in first round damage and the darkness benefits.
thoughts?
You already know that they have free invisibility from creatures using darkvision to see in dark environments (so in dark domains without light or at night, your character could sneak past ordinary people quite effectively which has a lot of roleplay options)? The extra saving throw prof is nice, potentially putting you at four saving throw profs (and thus making you harder to take out of a fight) if you use a feat to gain another. The ability to also reroll a missed attack at higher levels is also nice.
Also, the Swarmkeeper only has their swarm attack "once per each of your turns". That said, the fact that your character can be moved by the swarm a short distance and not trigger AoO is pretty good. Flying speed is good too, even if it's only 10ft and lasts for a minute. Being able to teleport via your swarm is also pretty cool. It's really nice flavour and very fun to play.
That said, when I did build a character, I went Swarmkeeper rather than Gloomstalker.
spike growth pairs pretty well with swarmkeeper. If you can hit a shot and move the target 15 feet, that's guaranteed damage.
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Swarm keepers are great. So much flavor and rp potential. And as you stated the damage out put is fair for the class.
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I'd say both are good enough to make you want them.
Often we only do damage calculations but battle field control,utility, and damage control are just as important. The problem is those categories are hard to standardize for comparison and measurements.
I'd say take what's fun but don't be afraid of the others.
Because combats are (typically) short, Gloomstalkers are desirable because you front-load your damage and Dread Ambusher combos extremely well when multiclassing Fighter for Action Surge.
If I were playing a Swarmkeeper I probably wouldn't be playing purely for attacking every turn and would instead be looking to utilize area control spells like Web/Spike Growth and the ability to push things around with the swarm.
I've been playing a Swarmkeeper recently, and while the added damage is nice, the ability to shunt myself 5 feet is way more valuable in practice, especially as I'm using a glaive with Polearm Master, so being able to effectively Disengage for "free" and force an enemy to come to me (and trigger my reaction attack) is way more valuable than a little bit of extra damage most of the time.
Pushing an enemy or combining with thorn whip (from druidic warrior) for a long distance pull is also a great option.
The damage is nice, but it's the option I use when the other two can't help me more.
I also love getting mage hand for free; getting a free cantrip is an easy feature to overlook, but considering Rangers get a grand total of none as standard it's actually a pretty big deal, it's also a big reason why druidic warrior is a very tough option to pass up for the fighting style as every extra cantrip is a big deal to me. I regularly use it to carry a torch to overcome a lack of darkvision, without limiting my ability to fight (though I have to be wary of positioning if I need to move a lot), as well as access things I can't otherwise get at.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I believe Swarmkeeper main strength is their controlling capabilities as the folks said above. Web is one of the best spells ever, Spike Growth is also awesome and both pair really well with the ability of moving things around. Glook Stalker are the DPR kings.
I believe Swarmkeep is a mixed bag of abilities but can compete with the Gloom Stalker. Hear me out.
Gloom Stalker (GS): initiative bonus, extra attacks, movement (10ft), and extra damage at the start of combat, a means to gain advantage including means to impose disadvantage
Swarmkeeps (SK). Movement (5ft), extra damage, or control every turn, means to gain advantage (faerie fire), Utility cantrip.
Both at level 3. However, I believe that the versatility of the SK can exceed what the GS can produce. Damage? If the situation is correct pushing a foe 15ft off a cliff is +20D6 damage per foe. Giving your full team advantage? far better they just yourself (looking at you rogues), free disengage per hit vs invisability in darkness (conditional).
Long game the SK has more sustainment then the GS. At level 17, lets take the fall damage for example. both characters jump from a 60ft buring building. the gloom stakers takes the normal 20d6. The SK stabs themself with a knife (taking damage) around 25ft from the bottom, taking dagger damage/2 and moving an additional 30 ft not impacting the ground. Never mind the "free disengage" now give them a second shield (half cover =+2 AC and Dex) or that flight trivizes melee foes.
GS are built for raw damage. Fast, effective and ending fights before they begin. SK are there for versitlity and to debuff the enemies, and add extra damage through a variety of means.
Using Xanathar's Guide to Everything you fall 500 feet per round . Given that rate of falling is it possible to damage your self when you less then 30 feet above the ground ?
Lol.. I was drunk when I wrote that but I guess with inspiration, Nat 20 and a willing DM, why not??🤔
Even though original post was specifically about the damage component (and considering it was posted months ago so it's kinda pointless to add now), for me personally the swarmkeeper option has been generally more fun. Specifically deciding what the swarm is comprised of. Options are practically unlimited. I've done the usual (bees and such) but I've also had a swarm created from emotional anger my character was feeling at the time. Also a time I took the "spirit of each of my party's best qualities" and combined them for my swarm. Current campaign will go for another year or so and I'm looking forward to what I can come up with.