I did a big analysis in the other topic comparing Fighter and Gloomstalker. It was quite clear that a Ranger is superior all the time. Fighters are slightly better at level 1 because they get fighting style earlier and maybe at level 6 because of the ASI, but overall Rangers can match/surpass Fighters damage capabilities and also contribute big time with the party through spells and class abilities.
Maybe only Paladins or Ancestral Guardians can be better contributors to the party, but Rangers are nothing to sneeze at.
The original 5E ranger was weak. But most of the subclasses since then have been an improvement. Also the Tasha’s cauldron provided a big fix to the base class and the beast master
ya now monk could use this treatment. But ya rangers are pretty good now.
If you are using the Tasha's abilities they do not suck. With the right subclass and other selections, they are probably the most powerful so called "martial" at tier 2+. I would put Fey Wanderer and Gloomstalker with right feat selections up against any other "martial" at any level from 6+.
With Favored Foe Rangers have a way to bump damage to put them among the highest damage dealers at level 1. While this falls off quickly as level goes up, it uses no spell slots or actions and therefore remains a useful damage boost they have multiple times a day at all levels. Further, when it has fallen off in DPR you can still spam it for Damage in one turn. For example, at 6th level a Ranger using two weapon fighting and spamming favored foe can do an extra 3d6 damage to a creature in one turn and do another 1d6 per turn to that creature every turn after that as long as he maintains concentration and can do that without using any spell slots or sacrificing other features.
Fog Cloud, Goodberry, Spike Growth, Pass Without Trace are among the best 1st and 2nd level spells in the game, are available at level 5 and remain relevant at all levels.
Favored Foe, Nature's Veil and Roving are among the best class abilities at the level you get them and remain relevant for the entire game.
Gloomstalker makes for probably the best martial in the game in tier 2 and early tier 3 and Fey Wander is probably the best "martial" in late tier 3 and tier 4. I have Martial in quotes for Fey Wanderer because it is really Beguiling Twist and Fey Reinforcements that make the subclass so powerful.
Due to concentration-free Summon Fey and beguiling Twist, A Fey Wanderer has control options near equal to Wizards of the same level with the additional ability to use extra attack and deal significant damage while maintaining concentration on either Favored Foe or another DPR spell.
This is in addition to a bunch of non-combat features, social skills or ribbons you get from both the class and the subclasses.
I think subclasses have made rangers a lot better since 5e began. But they do suffer from a lack of meaningful main class features though, especially compared to Paladins who were their half caster reflection when both came out.
Paladins get smite and lay on hands in the first two levels, while Ranger gets favored enemy and natural explorer. When Paladin gets their powerful aura ability at 6, Ranger gets upgrades to those first two flavor abilities. When Paladins get another buff to their aura at level ten, Rangers get the ability to replicate a nerfed version of Pass Without Trace solely on themselves that only works when they don't move.
I think Artificers even get a lot more pound for pound in abilities, and it just leaves rangers feeling a little empty. They are a martial with half casting, but they don't have a strong set of features like smite and auras or artificer infusions.
Ranger spells are unique, but the list is a bit limited to traps and niche spells. Even the damaging spells are a bit underpowered, like Swift Quiver (blow a 5th level spell slot just to shoot as many times as a Fighter archer of the same level? For one minute? And not even the round to use it on?)
Paladins get smite and lay on hands in the first two levels, while Ranger gets favored enemy and natural explorer. When Paladin gets their powerful aura ability at 6, Ranger gets upgrades to those first two flavor abilities. When Paladins get another buff to their aura at level ten, Rangers get the ability to replicate a nerfed version of Pass Without Trace solely on themselves that only works when they don't move.
If you don't use the Tasha's upgraded replacements for those abilities you are right, but the versions in Tasha's change that a lot, especially at levels 6 (Roving) and 10 (Nature's Veil).
Paladins get smite and lay on hands in the first two levels, while Ranger gets favored enemy and natural explorer. When Paladin gets their powerful aura ability at 6, Ranger gets upgrades to those first two flavor abilities. When Paladins get another buff to their aura at level ten, Rangers get the ability to replicate a nerfed version of Pass Without Trace solely on themselves that only works when they don't move.
If you don't use the Tasha's upgraded replacements for those abilities you are right, but the versions in Tasha's change that a lot, especially at levels 6 (Roving) and 10 (Nature's Veil).
Yeah. I took another look at the Ranger features and some of them are kind of underwhelming except for very specific circumstances. But Tasha’s Cauldron definitely fixes those.
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The optional rules help, but do all of them put together equate to something as interesting or powerful as what other half-caster get with 2 levels?
A worse version of hunter's mark, 5ft of movement speed and a climb speed, a few Druid spells, a pseudo channel divinity, and a bonus action invisibility and 1d8 +wis temp hit points per proficiency bonus times per day?
That is iffy, and those are the optional rules for levels 1-10.
But even without TCoE, folks, a plain vanilla PHB Ranger has outstanding spells that offer same level of versatility, protection and damage boost compared to Paladins. Main difference is Smite. I have played both Paladins and Rangers, and all the time I cast a spell as a Paladin, I had the bittersweet taste that I should probably save that slot for Smite. Rangers don’t need to worry about that. Just cast their spells and be happy. Paladins burn their slots quickly. Rangers cast a powerful spell that can be useful throughout 2+ encounters. It’s all about efficiency.
It’s not a coincidence that several Ranger spells have a long duration. Hunter’s Mark, Fog Cloud and Longstrider lasts for 1 hour. Goodberry is one of the best rest cast spells, and it lasts for 24 hours.
If you are able to keep your concentration making your Hunter’s Mark / Pass Without Trace / Summon Beast active for at least 2+ encounters, you already made the most of your spell slot. Other great spells that have potential to last more than one encounter are Protection from Poison (1 hour), Spike Growth and Silence (both 10 minutes).
Paladins have Smite to boost damage and Lay on Hands to cure at level 2. Rangers have Hunters Mark/Ensnaring Strike/Zephyr’s Strike to boost damage (and battlefield control) and Goodberry for sustained cure.
As I have been claiming in other posts, spells are the main competitive edge for Rangers. They don’t have a big list and they are not even prepared casters, but if you play your cards right and manage your slots with efficiency, you’ll be a martial powerhouse.
You don’t need to be a veteran to shine as a Paladin, Fighter or Barbarian. Rangers are not ideal for newcomers. But in the hands of a seasoned player, a Ranger can feel exactly as their original inspiration came from: Aragorn, the badass Explorer who know hot solve everything and kick butts like no one.
I really don't think its that clear a case that Rangers have better spells than other half-casters. And if that really is their edge, that is still a problem: they have to depend even more on that limited resource compared to other half casters who have other features.
But even without TCoE, folks, a plain vanilla PHB Ranger has outstanding spells that offer same level of versatility, protection and damage boost compared to Paladins. Main difference is Smite. I have played both Paladins and Rangers, and all the time I cast a spell as a Paladin, I had the bittersweet taste that I should probably save that slot for Smite. Rangers don’t need to worry about that. Just cast their spells and be happy. Paladins burn their slots quickly. Rangers cast a powerful spell that can be useful throughout 2+ encounters. It’s all about efficiency.
It’s not a coincidence that several Ranger spells have a long duration. Hunter’s Mark, Fog Cloud and Longstrider lasts for 1 hour. Goodberry is one of the best rest cast spells, and it lasts for 24 hours.
If you are able to keep your concentration making your Hunter’s Mark / Pass Without Trace / Summon Beast active for at least 2+ encounters, you already made the most of your spell slot. Other great spells that have potential to last more than one encounter are Protection from Poison (1 hour), Spike Growth and Silence (both 10 minutes).
Paladins have Smite to boost damage and Lay on Hands to cure at level 2. Rangers have Hunters Mark/Ensnaring Strike/Zephyr’s Strike to boost damage (and battlefield control) and Goodberry for sustained cure.
As I have been claiming in other posts, spells are the main competitive edge for Rangers. They don’t have a big list and they are not even prepared casters, but if you play your cards right and manage your slots with efficiency, you’ll be a martial powerhouse.
You don’t need to be a veteran to shine as a Paladin, Fighter or Barbarian. Rangers are not ideal for newcomers. But in the hands of a seasoned player, a Ranger can feel exactly as their original inspiration came from: Aragorn, the badass Explorer who know hot solve everything and kick butts like no one.
Lay on hands is actually level one, but yes.
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I really don't think its that clear a case that Rangers have better spells than other half-casters. And if that really is their edge, that is still a problem: they have to depend even more on that limited resource compared to other half casters who have other features.
I agree with you. Now I’ll play devil’s advocate against myself. To be honest, “better” can be subjective. If you take a look at the Paladin spell list, you’ll see amazing things like Bless, Command, Wrathful Smite, Find Steed (!). And Paladins are prepared casters, Rangers are known. A cold analysis would state very clear that Paladins are better spellcasters than Rangers.
However, as I have explained in my first reply in this topic, the opportunity cost to cast a spell instead of Smite the ass of an enemy is always… bittersweet.
In terms of spell slot efficiency (for the lack of a better measurement therm), I believe Rangers have a superior spell list if we analyze action economy + spell duration + concentration.
Paladins are a burst of radiant power. It’s all in. Quick & dirty.
Rangers are consistent multiple strikes from a swift sting. Precise & lethal, no trails.
The optional rules help, but do all of them put together equate to something as interesting or powerful as what other half-caster get with 2 levels?
A worse version of hunter's mark, 5ft of movement speed and a climb speed, a few Druid spells, a pseudo channel divinity, and a bonus action invisibility and 1d8 +wis temp hit points per proficiency bonus times per day?
That is iffy, and those are the optional rules for levels 1-10.
The optional rules help, but do all of them put together equate to something as interesting or powerful as what other half-caster get with 2 levels?
A worse version of hunter's mark, 5ft of movement speed and a climb speed, a few Druid spells, a pseudo channel divinity, and a bonus action invisibility and 1d8 +wis temp hit points per proficiency bonus times per day?
That is iffy, and those are the optional rules for levels 1-10.
The optional rules help, but do all of them put together equate to something as interesting or powerful as what other half-caster get with 2 levels?
A worse version of hunter's mark, 5ft of movement speed and a climb speed, a few Druid spells, a pseudo channel divinity, and a bonus action invisibility and 1d8 +wis temp hit points per proficiency bonus times per day?
That is iffy, and those are the optional rules for levels 1-10.
The optional rules help, but do all of them put together equate to something as interesting or powerful as what other half-caster get with 2 levels?
A worse version of hunter's mark, 5ft of movement speed and a climb speed, a few Druid spells, a pseudo channel divinity, and a bonus action invisibility and 1d8 +wis temp hit points per proficiency bonus times per day?
That is iffy, and those are the optional rules for levels 1-10.
Define interesting please?
Saturday night I cast speak with animals and convinced an old horse to get the other horses in a stable to act up. Kick the stalls, lunge like they were biting the stable hands etc... Told the owner they were not worth half of what he was asking. He ended up giving us the horses for 60% off his asking price. I used animal handling and the horses followed me out as the previous owner became enraged at his loss. Ten i used Hunters mark to follow a dragon's minion back to its lair and Pass with out trace to sneak our party into the lair to loot and escape. Mad experiance for not confronting a dragon at level 5 and for finding the item needed to save the kingdom. I also out damaged the paladin in our party in a fight against a dark knight, controlled the knights underlings with entangle, peppered them with arrows, and feed the party, which was out of rations using survival. Not only useful but created interesting encounters.
The optional rules help, but do all of them put together equate to something as interesting or powerful as what other half-caster get with 2 levels?
Yes I think they are better at 2nd level. Mostly because Favored Foe does not use spell slots.
Comparing a Ranger at level 2 to an Artificer and a Paladin:
Ranger:
Favored foe which is 1d4 to an enemy every turn he hits him twice a day without using any spell slots.
An extra skill and expertise in a skill
2 spells a day
Fighting Style
Martial Weapons
2 extra languages
Artificer:
2 cantrips
Firearm proficiency
2 infused items
2 spells per day
Paladin
Lay on Hands 10hps
2 Smites a day OR 2 spells a day
Martial Weapons
Fighting Style
Heavy Armor
Divine Sense
I think looking at Ranger and Paladin what makes Ranger better at level 2 is she gets Favored Foe without using any spell slots. I think this compares very well to Divine Smite. A Paladin Divine Smite is generally 4d8 total if he uses his spell slots. If you compare this to a Ranger, the Ranger gets 1d4 a turn against 2 foes a day until they are dead or she loses concentration and then she gets to cast 2 spells on top of that.
A worse version of hunter's mark, 5ft of movement speed and a climb speed, a few Druid spells, a pseudo channel divinity, and a bonus action invisibility and 1d8 +wis temp hit points per proficiency bonus times per day?
That is iffy, and those are the optional rules for levels 1-10.
IMO It is actually closer at lower levels than it is when you get to tier 3. You also missed that not only does he get a speed boost, he also ignores difficult terrain and has both a swim speed and a climb speed. If your DM hand waves difficult terrain then that is not as big a deal, but it is huge if you play with difficult terrain.
Having a swim speed also means he can swing any melee weapon in the water without disadvantage, while all other classes are limited to spears, javelins, shortswords, Tridents and daggers.
The worse version of Hunters Mark uses no spell slots, so it is just a flat damage boost, and you can spam it to get it on multiple hits per turn. At 6th level using Two Weapon Fighting a Ranger can use FF 3 times for 3d6 damage in a single turn. That is more than a Paladin will do burning 1st level slot on Smiting and he still has all his slots left and continues to do 1d6 to the target on future turns.
Bonus action invisibility is awesome. It will generally give you advantage and enemies disadvantage for an entire turn and also eliminates opportunity attacks by enemies. Not always, because some enemies have blindsight, but usually. That it is not concentration, is a bonus action and is not canceled by attacking only makes it better. Stack this with GWM or Sharpshooter and it is a serious boost.
1d8+wis temp hit points 4 times a day is going to be about 35 temp hps which is over half what a Paladin gets in LOH and he has the ribbon ability to cancel exhaustion with a short rest on top of that.
A Ranger has all this plus more skills, expertise in a skill and more languages.
Finally there is value in being a dex-based class because high dexterity is better in game than high strength. Dex saves and dex skills are generally more important than strength saves and Athletics. You can build a dex-based Paladin, but the Paladin abilities and fighting styles do not compliment dexterity as well as the Ranger abilities and fighting styles do.
You forgot paladins get a fighting style at level 2.
They also get the best class ability in the game at level 6 as far as I’m concerned. It’s very hard to measure up to Aura of Protection. That said, I like rangers since TCoE just fine. They’re good in their own way.
Paladins and rangers play quite differently. I’d even say rather incomparably.
I really don't think its that clear a case that Rangers have better spells than other half-casters. And if that really is their edge, that is still a problem: they have to depend even more on that limited resource compared to other half casters who have other features.
Rangers actually have both more spells and more non-spell features than other half casters (except Artificers at level 1) because they get free spells that don't use slots through Primal Awareness.
I think you're falling into a bit of a trap with favored foe. It takes a bonus action to activate (so no two weapon wielding that turn) and its just an average of 2 extra damage per hit. If the fight isn't guarantied to go more than 3 rounds, you're better off not using it at all, unless you are just doing ranged fighting.
To use the Paladin comparison, they get a similar damage boost by using the dueling fighting style all the time without using their bonus action. And dueling is considered a so so fighting style, not some amazing class defining trait. They can even abuse it on a bonus action with pole arm master with a one handed quarter staff the same as duel wielding. If you told me a defining feature of my class was getting the dueling fighting style on one target twice a day with no scaling in damage from level 2 to 20... I would not be impressed.
Bonus action invisibility gets less useful later in levels, when more enemies have true sight, blind sight, tremor sense, etc. Even generating advantage is pretty easy by then, and I probably need my bonus action for favored foe or two weapon fighting.
Dex is strong in 5e, but lets not oversell it.
Ranger just lacks a a good unifying mechanic or theme. Unless its a specific campaign that is survival heavy, then their abilities are meaningful.
I think you're falling into a bit of a trap with favored foe. It takes a bonus action to activate (so no two weapon wielding that turn) and its just an average of 2 extra damage per hit. If the fight isn't guarantied to go more than 3 rounds, you're better off not using it at all, unless you are just doing ranged fighting.
Favored Foe does NOT take a bonus action to activate. It is a flat increase and it activates on a hit, that is the point.
The trap you refer to is with Hunters Mark and that is why I would not get HM at all on a TWF build. I also would not keep HM past 4th level on a sharpshooter or GWM build.
Favored Foe:
This 1st-level feature replaces the Favored Enemy feature and works with the Foe Slayer feature. You gain no benefit from the replaced feature and don't qualify for anything in the game that requires it.
When you hit a creature with an attack roll,you can call on your mystical bond with nature to mark the target as your favored enemy for 1 minute or until you lose your concentration (as if you were concentrating on a spell).
The first time on each of your turns that you hit the favored enemy and deal damage to it, including when you mark it, you increase that damage by 1d4.
You can use this feature to mark a favored enemy a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus, and you regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.
This feature's extra damage increases when you reach certain levels in this class: to 1d6 at 6th level and to 1d8 at 14th level.
To use the Paladin comparison, they get a similar damage boost by using the dueling fighting style all the time without using their bonus action.
Not really a level 2 Paladin using Dueling is doing 6.5+strength or dex bonus
A Ranger with Defense Fighting Style using Two weapon Fighting is doing 8+strength or dex bonus
A Ranger with Two-Weapon Fighting Style using Two weapon fighting is doing 8+ two times strength or dex bonus
A Ranger with Dueling is doing the same 6.5+strength or dex bonus
That is before any bonuses from Favored Foe or anything else, favored foe would just add to this.
And dueling is considered a so so fighting style, not some amazing class defining trait. They can even abuse it on a bonus action with pole arm master with a one handed quarter staff the same as duel wielding. If you told me a defining feature of my class was getting the dueling fighting style on one target twice a day with no scaling in damage from level 2 to 20... I would not be impressed.
Dueling is also available to a Ranger, so they can do this too if they want, although I will point out that at level 2 you can not get PAM unless you have it from a Race or are playing in a Dragonlance campaign.
Further almost every subclass of Ranger gets a boost to damage and while we are comparing class features, subclasses bring things to the game. The Paladin gets improved Smite at level 11, but Rangers have generally been doing close to that with subclass features for 8 levels by that point.
Paladin sublcasses bring things to the table as well but Paladin subclasses are generally less of their total kit than the Ranger's are.
Bonus action invisibility gets less useful later in levels, when more enemies have true sight, blind sight, tremor sense, etc. Even generating advantage is pretty easy by then, and I probably need my bonus action for favored foe or two weapon fighting.
As I said FF and TWF do not conflict with each other and whether you are using TWF depends entirely on your build. At high level you are not using Favored Foe a whole lot. As I alluded to Nature's Veil works best when you are using Great Weapon Master or Sharpshooter
Bonus action invisibility is less useful against enemies that don't need to see you, but a lot of enemies do not have those things even at 20th level.
There is no Paladin class feature I know of that lets you get advantage at 11th level. You can use the Vengence Paladin's Subclass Channel Divinity for that if you chose that subclass, but that is only against 1 enemy per rest, you lose out on a smite or spell slot if you use it and it does not confer the other improvements invisibility provides (disadvantage to enemy attacks immune to AOOs). So I would say those limitations even make that subclass feature as situational as Nature's Veil.
Ranger just lacks a a good unifying mechanic or theme. Unless its a specific campaign that is survival heavy, then their abilities are meaningful.
I will agree with you on theme, but not on mechanics. IME the class name is mostly just a name and a set of mechanics, the player makes the thematics for the most part.
Most of the Rangers I play are high wisdom Gish-type characters that get more spells with feats and they are super at this. With a Fey Wanderer you can be the best face in the game beating out a Bard with expertise even. With a Gloom Stalker you are the ultimate scout, act first most combats and bring a powerful first turn to the table without blowing any resources.
Most Rangers I play don't even have proficiency in survival or nature and while they have a good wisdom, most of them are not any better than Clerics in the wild. Not always but usually. My Rangers are usually concentrating skills on Acrobatics, Athletics, Stealth, Slight of Hand, Perception and Inviestigation. They usually have a background that gets them theives tools - Urban Bounty Hunter, Urchin or Criminal, unles they are a Fey Wanderer in which case they usually have a face-oriented background.
Sure if you take certain skills and natural explorer you can be dominating in survival and the exploration pillar, but most campaigns are not heavily focused on that and you are gimping your Ranger in other areas to do that.
I really don't think its that clear a case that Rangers have better spells than other half-casters. And if that really is their edge, that is still a problem: they have to depend even more on that limited resource compared to other half casters who have other features.
I agree with you. Now I’ll play devil’s advocate against myself. To be honest, “better” can be subjective. If you take a look at the Paladin spell list, you’ll see amazing things like Bless, Command, Wrathful Smite, Find Steed (!). And Paladins are prepared casters, Rangers are known. A cold analysis would state very clear that Paladins are better spellcasters than Rangers.
However, as I have explained in my first reply in this topic, the opportunity cost to cast a spell instead of Smite the ass of an enemy is always… bittersweet.
In terms of spell slot efficiency (for the lack of a better measurement therm), I believe Rangers have a superior spell list if we analyze action economy + spell duration + concentration.
Paladins are a burst of radiant power. It’s all in. Quick & dirty.
Rangers are consistent multiple strikes from a swift sting. Precise & lethal, no trails.
To add on to this: Some of the "better" ranger spells, Pass without a trace, Hunter's Mark. (Not including plant growth, wrath of Nature, Tree Stride, Grasping Vine, Nondetection- which.. pairs well with pass without a trace.
Have good lengthy durations, Rangers aren't usually breaking concentration easily either. Pass Without a Trace makes everyone as good or better at sneaking as a rogue, unless your DM plays "there are critical fails to skill checks" as their homebrew rule.
Hunter's Mark: Common misconception is that its only useful in battle: This is the biggest issue with Hunter's mark, is many people ONLY use it for the bonus damage in battle, and don't use it for all of its other purposes. Want to follow a NPC but they're quite alert to you or your party is not as sneaky as you'd hoped? Hunter's mark them. Track them from afar. figure out everywhere they went over the stretch of up to 24 HOURS. You Can upcast this spell on a "shifty" court advisor you're SUS of. Have a long rest. Then track down everywhere he went during the night provided you don't roll crap on your survival with advantage. ALTERNATE SCENARIO: You know there's a problem with goblins/orcs/insert thing here raiding a village, you get ambushed. The whole interrogation and kill thing is overdone and boring and feels like "are we the baddies" BUT, if you have your hunter's mark on them... You can track them as the wounded one that runs away leads you completely back to basecamp. ALTERNATE SCENARIO: Want to set up a "bait" scenario where someone gets captured intentionally in some elaborate scooby doo "unmask the villains" thing? Have the "bait" put on some perfume, and Hunter's mark them.
Point being: Hunter's mark is not ONLY for dealing damage, which is how 99% (possible exaggeration? but probably not) of people play it/use it.
To the paladin's point: Few of the spells deal damage/impact better than the smite would for their damage dealing spells. the Find Steed and find greater steed kinda carry their list of useful spells.
Circle of Power used to be the big "trump card" spell for Paladins. Until Twilight clerics got access to it 8 levels earlier. granted circle of power alone, with paladins, is..... yeah.
A paladin can serve two purposes without doing some MADness. Damage, Healing. Its hard for a paladin to provide a utility/support role. Nor is it the most economic or useful way to be a paladin.
A Ranger can play *almost* any role out there. (Cannot play a full caster role). Rangers, if you take all humanoids as your favored enemies, can even be pretty successful face characters with minimal effort.
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I did a big analysis in the other topic comparing Fighter and Gloomstalker. It was quite clear that a Ranger is superior all the time. Fighters are slightly better at level 1 because they get fighting style earlier and maybe at level 6 because of the ASI, but overall Rangers can match/surpass Fighters damage capabilities and also contribute big time with the party through spells and class abilities.
Maybe only Paladins or Ancestral Guardians can be better contributors to the party, but Rangers are nothing to sneeze at.
ya now monk could use this treatment. But ya rangers are pretty good now.
If you are using the Tasha's abilities they do not suck. With the right subclass and other selections, they are probably the most powerful so called "martial" at tier 2+. I would put Fey Wanderer and Gloomstalker with right feat selections up against any other "martial" at any level from 6+.
With Favored Foe Rangers have a way to bump damage to put them among the highest damage dealers at level 1. While this falls off quickly as level goes up, it uses no spell slots or actions and therefore remains a useful damage boost they have multiple times a day at all levels. Further, when it has fallen off in DPR you can still spam it for Damage in one turn. For example, at 6th level a Ranger using two weapon fighting and spamming favored foe can do an extra 3d6 damage to a creature in one turn and do another 1d6 per turn to that creature every turn after that as long as he maintains concentration and can do that without using any spell slots or sacrificing other features.
Fog Cloud, Goodberry, Spike Growth, Pass Without Trace are among the best 1st and 2nd level spells in the game, are available at level 5 and remain relevant at all levels.
Favored Foe, Nature's Veil and Roving are among the best class abilities at the level you get them and remain relevant for the entire game.
Gloomstalker makes for probably the best martial in the game in tier 2 and early tier 3 and Fey Wander is probably the best "martial" in late tier 3 and tier 4. I have Martial in quotes for Fey Wanderer because it is really Beguiling Twist and Fey Reinforcements that make the subclass so powerful.
Due to concentration-free Summon Fey and beguiling Twist, A Fey Wanderer has control options near equal to Wizards of the same level with the additional ability to use extra attack and deal significant damage while maintaining concentration on either Favored Foe or another DPR spell.
This is in addition to a bunch of non-combat features, social skills or ribbons you get from both the class and the subclasses.
I think subclasses have made rangers a lot better since 5e began. But they do suffer from a lack of meaningful main class features though, especially compared to Paladins who were their half caster reflection when both came out.
Paladins get smite and lay on hands in the first two levels, while Ranger gets favored enemy and natural explorer. When Paladin gets their powerful aura ability at 6, Ranger gets upgrades to those first two flavor abilities. When Paladins get another buff to their aura at level ten, Rangers get the ability to replicate a nerfed version of Pass Without Trace solely on themselves that only works when they don't move.
I think Artificers even get a lot more pound for pound in abilities, and it just leaves rangers feeling a little empty. They are a martial with half casting, but they don't have a strong set of features like smite and auras or artificer infusions.
Ranger spells are unique, but the list is a bit limited to traps and niche spells. Even the damaging spells are a bit underpowered, like Swift Quiver (blow a 5th level spell slot just to shoot as many times as a Fighter archer of the same level? For one minute? And not even the round to use it on?)
If you don't use the Tasha's upgraded replacements for those abilities you are right, but the versions in Tasha's change that a lot, especially at levels 6 (Roving) and 10 (Nature's Veil).
Yeah. I took another look at the Ranger features and some of them are kind of underwhelming except for very specific circumstances. But Tasha’s Cauldron definitely fixes those.
If I haven’t offended you, don’t worry. I’m sure I’ll get to you eventually.
The optional rules help, but do all of them put together equate to something as interesting or powerful as what other half-caster get with 2 levels?
A worse version of hunter's mark, 5ft of movement speed and a climb speed, a few Druid spells, a pseudo channel divinity, and a bonus action invisibility and 1d8 +wis temp hit points per proficiency bonus times per day?
That is iffy, and those are the optional rules for levels 1-10.
Yeah. I know that other classes can and do have better things, but the Ranger, if used properly, can still be good.
If I haven’t offended you, don’t worry. I’m sure I’ll get to you eventually.
But even without TCoE, folks, a plain vanilla PHB Ranger has outstanding spells that offer same level of versatility, protection and damage boost compared to Paladins. Main difference is Smite. I have played both Paladins and Rangers, and all the time I cast a spell as a Paladin, I had the bittersweet taste that I should probably save that slot for Smite. Rangers don’t need to worry about that. Just cast their spells and be happy. Paladins burn their slots quickly. Rangers cast a powerful spell that can be useful throughout 2+ encounters. It’s all about efficiency.
It’s not a coincidence that several Ranger spells have a long duration. Hunter’s Mark, Fog Cloud and Longstrider lasts for 1 hour. Goodberry is one of the best rest cast spells, and it lasts for 24 hours.
If you are able to keep your concentration making your Hunter’s Mark / Pass Without Trace / Summon Beast active for at least 2+ encounters, you already made the most of your spell slot. Other great spells that have potential to last more than one encounter are Protection from Poison (1 hour), Spike Growth and Silence (both 10 minutes).
Paladins have Smite to boost damage and Lay on Hands to cure at level 2. Rangers have Hunters Mark/Ensnaring Strike/Zephyr’s Strike to boost damage (and battlefield control) and Goodberry for sustained cure.
As I have been claiming in other posts, spells are the main competitive edge for Rangers. They don’t have a big list and they are not even prepared casters, but if you play your cards right and manage your slots with efficiency, you’ll be a martial powerhouse.
You don’t need to be a veteran to shine as a Paladin, Fighter or Barbarian. Rangers are not ideal for newcomers. But in the hands of a seasoned player, a Ranger can feel exactly as their original inspiration came from: Aragorn, the badass Explorer who know hot solve everything and kick butts like no one.
I really don't think its that clear a case that Rangers have better spells than other half-casters. And if that really is their edge, that is still a problem: they have to depend even more on that limited resource compared to other half casters who have other features.
Lay on hands is actually level one, but yes.
If I haven’t offended you, don’t worry. I’m sure I’ll get to you eventually.
I agree with you. Now I’ll play devil’s advocate against myself. To be honest, “better” can be subjective. If you take a look at the Paladin spell list, you’ll see amazing things like Bless, Command, Wrathful Smite, Find Steed (!). And Paladins are prepared casters, Rangers are known. A cold analysis would state very clear that Paladins are better spellcasters than Rangers.
However, as I have explained in my first reply in this topic, the opportunity cost to cast a spell instead of Smite the ass of an enemy is always… bittersweet.
In terms of spell slot efficiency (for the lack of a better measurement therm), I believe Rangers have a superior spell list if we analyze action economy + spell duration + concentration.
Paladins are a burst of radiant power. It’s all in. Quick & dirty.
Rangers are consistent multiple strikes from a swift sting. Precise & lethal, no trails.
Define interesting please?
Saturday night I cast speak with animals and convinced an old horse to get the other horses in a stable to act up. Kick the stalls, lunge like they were biting the stable hands etc... Told the owner they were not worth half of what he was asking. He ended up giving us the horses for 60% off his asking price. I used animal handling and the horses followed me out as the previous owner became enraged at his loss. Ten i used Hunters mark to follow a dragon's minion back to its lair and Pass with out trace to sneak our party into the lair to loot and escape. Mad experiance for not confronting a dragon at level 5 and for finding the item needed to save the kingdom. I also out damaged the paladin in our party in a fight against a dark knight, controlled the knights underlings with entangle, peppered them with arrows, and feed the party, which was out of rations using survival. Not only useful but created interesting encounters.
Yes I think they are better at 2nd level. Mostly because Favored Foe does not use spell slots.
Comparing a Ranger at level 2 to an Artificer and a Paladin:
Ranger:
Favored foe which is 1d4 to an enemy every turn he hits him twice a day without using any spell slots.
An extra skill and expertise in a skill
2 spells a day
Fighting Style
Martial Weapons
2 extra languages
Artificer:
2 cantrips
Firearm proficiency
2 infused items
2 spells per day
Paladin
Lay on Hands 10hps
2 Smites a day OR 2 spells a day
Martial Weapons
Fighting Style
Heavy Armor
Divine Sense
I think looking at Ranger and Paladin what makes Ranger better at level 2 is she gets Favored Foe without using any spell slots. I think this compares very well to Divine Smite. A Paladin Divine Smite is generally 4d8 total if he uses his spell slots. If you compare this to a Ranger, the Ranger gets 1d4 a turn against 2 foes a day until they are dead or she loses concentration and then she gets to cast 2 spells on top of that.
IMO It is actually closer at lower levels than it is when you get to tier 3. You also missed that not only does he get a speed boost, he also ignores difficult terrain and has both a swim speed and a climb speed. If your DM hand waves difficult terrain then that is not as big a deal, but it is huge if you play with difficult terrain.
Having a swim speed also means he can swing any melee weapon in the water without disadvantage, while all other classes are limited to spears, javelins, shortswords, Tridents and daggers.
The worse version of Hunters Mark uses no spell slots, so it is just a flat damage boost, and you can spam it to get it on multiple hits per turn. At 6th level using Two Weapon Fighting a Ranger can use FF 3 times for 3d6 damage in a single turn. That is more than a Paladin will do burning 1st level slot on Smiting and he still has all his slots left and continues to do 1d6 to the target on future turns.
Bonus action invisibility is awesome. It will generally give you advantage and enemies disadvantage for an entire turn and also eliminates opportunity attacks by enemies. Not always, because some enemies have blindsight, but usually. That it is not concentration, is a bonus action and is not canceled by attacking only makes it better. Stack this with GWM or Sharpshooter and it is a serious boost.
1d8+wis temp hit points 4 times a day is going to be about 35 temp hps which is over half what a Paladin gets in LOH and he has the ribbon ability to cancel exhaustion with a short rest on top of that.
A Ranger has all this plus more skills, expertise in a skill and more languages.
Finally there is value in being a dex-based class because high dexterity is better in game than high strength. Dex saves and dex skills are generally more important than strength saves and Athletics. You can build a dex-based Paladin, but the Paladin abilities and fighting styles do not compliment dexterity as well as the Ranger abilities and fighting styles do.
You forgot paladins get a fighting style at level 2.
They also get the best class ability in the game at level 6 as far as I’m concerned. It’s very hard to measure up to Aura of Protection. That said, I like rangers since TCoE just fine. They’re good in their own way.
Paladins and rangers play quite differently. I’d even say rather incomparably.
Absolutely.
If I haven’t offended you, don’t worry. I’m sure I’ll get to you eventually.
Rangers actually have both more spells and more non-spell features than other half casters (except Artificers at level 1) because they get free spells that don't use slots through Primal Awareness.
I think you're falling into a bit of a trap with favored foe. It takes a bonus action to activate (so no two weapon wielding that turn) and its just an average of 2 extra damage per hit. If the fight isn't guarantied to go more than 3 rounds, you're better off not using it at all, unless you are just doing ranged fighting.
To use the Paladin comparison, they get a similar damage boost by using the dueling fighting style all the time without using their bonus action. And dueling is considered a so so fighting style, not some amazing class defining trait. They can even abuse it on a bonus action with pole arm master with a one handed quarter staff the same as duel wielding. If you told me a defining feature of my class was getting the dueling fighting style on one target twice a day with no scaling in damage from level 2 to 20... I would not be impressed.
Bonus action invisibility gets less useful later in levels, when more enemies have true sight, blind sight, tremor sense, etc. Even generating advantage is pretty easy by then, and I probably need my bonus action for favored foe or two weapon fighting.
Dex is strong in 5e, but lets not oversell it.
Ranger just lacks a a good unifying mechanic or theme. Unless its a specific campaign that is survival heavy, then their abilities are meaningful.
Favored Foe does NOT take a bonus action to activate. It is a flat increase and it activates on a hit, that is the point.
The trap you refer to is with Hunters Mark and that is why I would not get HM at all on a TWF build. I also would not keep HM past 4th level on a sharpshooter or GWM build.
Favored Foe:
This 1st-level feature replaces the Favored Enemy feature and works with the Foe Slayer feature. You gain no benefit from the replaced feature and don't qualify for anything in the game that requires it.
When you hit a creature with an attack roll, you can call on your mystical bond with nature to mark the target as your favored enemy for 1 minute or until you lose your concentration (as if you were concentrating on a spell).
The first time on each of your turns that you hit the favored enemy and deal damage to it, including when you mark it, you increase that damage by 1d4.
You can use this feature to mark a favored enemy a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus, and you regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.
This feature's extra damage increases when you reach certain levels in this class: to 1d6 at 6th level and to 1d8 at 14th level.
Not really a level 2 Paladin using Dueling is doing 6.5+strength or dex bonus
A Ranger with Defense Fighting Style using Two weapon Fighting is doing 8+strength or dex bonus
A Ranger with Two-Weapon Fighting Style using Two weapon fighting is doing 8+ two times strength or dex bonus
A Ranger with Dueling is doing the same 6.5+strength or dex bonus
That is before any bonuses from Favored Foe or anything else, favored foe would just add to this.
Dueling is also available to a Ranger, so they can do this too if they want, although I will point out that at level 2 you can not get PAM unless you have it from a Race or are playing in a Dragonlance campaign.
Further almost every subclass of Ranger gets a boost to damage and while we are comparing class features, subclasses bring things to the game. The Paladin gets improved Smite at level 11, but Rangers have generally been doing close to that with subclass features for 8 levels by that point.
Paladin sublcasses bring things to the table as well but Paladin subclasses are generally less of their total kit than the Ranger's are.
As I said FF and TWF do not conflict with each other and whether you are using TWF depends entirely on your build. At high level you are not using Favored Foe a whole lot. As I alluded to Nature's Veil works best when you are using Great Weapon Master or Sharpshooter
Bonus action invisibility is less useful against enemies that don't need to see you, but a lot of enemies do not have those things even at 20th level.
There is no Paladin class feature I know of that lets you get advantage at 11th level. You can use the Vengence Paladin's Subclass Channel Divinity for that if you chose that subclass, but that is only against 1 enemy per rest, you lose out on a smite or spell slot if you use it and it does not confer the other improvements invisibility provides (disadvantage to enemy attacks immune to AOOs). So I would say those limitations even make that subclass feature as situational as Nature's Veil.
I will agree with you on theme, but not on mechanics. IME the class name is mostly just a name and a set of mechanics, the player makes the thematics for the most part.
Most of the Rangers I play are high wisdom Gish-type characters that get more spells with feats and they are super at this. With a Fey Wanderer you can be the best face in the game beating out a Bard with expertise even. With a Gloom Stalker you are the ultimate scout, act first most combats and bring a powerful first turn to the table without blowing any resources.
Most Rangers I play don't even have proficiency in survival or nature and while they have a good wisdom, most of them are not any better than Clerics in the wild. Not always but usually. My Rangers are usually concentrating skills on Acrobatics, Athletics, Stealth, Slight of Hand, Perception and Inviestigation. They usually have a background that gets them theives tools - Urban Bounty Hunter, Urchin or Criminal, unles they are a Fey Wanderer in which case they usually have a face-oriented background.
Sure if you take certain skills and natural explorer you can be dominating in survival and the exploration pillar, but most campaigns are not heavily focused on that and you are gimping your Ranger in other areas to do that.
To add on to this: Some of the "better" ranger spells, Pass without a trace, Hunter's Mark. (Not including plant growth, wrath of Nature, Tree Stride, Grasping Vine, Nondetection- which.. pairs well with pass without a trace.
Have good lengthy durations, Rangers aren't usually breaking concentration easily either. Pass Without a Trace makes everyone as good or better at sneaking as a rogue, unless your DM plays "there are critical fails to skill checks" as their homebrew rule.
Hunter's Mark: Common misconception is that its only useful in battle: This is the biggest issue with Hunter's mark, is many people ONLY use it for the bonus damage in battle, and don't use it for all of its other purposes. Want to follow a NPC but they're quite alert to you or your party is not as sneaky as you'd hoped? Hunter's mark them. Track them from afar. figure out everywhere they went over the stretch of up to 24 HOURS. You Can upcast this spell on a "shifty" court advisor you're SUS of. Have a long rest. Then track down everywhere he went during the night provided you don't roll crap on your survival with advantage. ALTERNATE SCENARIO: You know there's a problem with goblins/orcs/insert thing here raiding a village, you get ambushed. The whole interrogation and kill thing is overdone and boring and feels like "are we the baddies" BUT, if you have your hunter's mark on them... You can track them as the wounded one that runs away leads you completely back to basecamp. ALTERNATE SCENARIO: Want to set up a "bait" scenario where someone gets captured intentionally in some elaborate scooby doo "unmask the villains" thing? Have the "bait" put on some perfume, and Hunter's mark them.
Point being: Hunter's mark is not ONLY for dealing damage, which is how 99% (possible exaggeration? but probably not) of people play it/use it.
To the paladin's point: Few of the spells deal damage/impact better than the smite would for their damage dealing spells. the Find Steed and find greater steed kinda carry their list of useful spells.
Circle of Power used to be the big "trump card" spell for Paladins. Until Twilight clerics got access to it 8 levels earlier. granted circle of power alone, with paladins, is..... yeah.
A paladin can serve two purposes without doing some MADness. Damage, Healing. Its hard for a paladin to provide a utility/support role. Nor is it the most economic or useful way to be a paladin.
A Ranger can play *almost* any role out there. (Cannot play a full caster role). Rangers, if you take all humanoids as your favored enemies, can even be pretty successful face characters with minimal effort.
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