With the new edition well on its way, what would anyone think would be good changes to the beast master? Let’s get the ball rolling early since from what I understand this is one of the least liked subclasses in the game.
I think for one the size of your beast should increase based on your level like the Drakewarden. There was even the primeval Druid that was supposed to come out that went all the way to huge. I would also think it would be good if the beast master could summon more creatures as your level goes up so you can actually feel like a beast master.
my idea would be commanding the beast without spending an action and removing the size limit, maybe an option would be to use the same cr table as circle of the moon druid
my idea would be commanding the beast without spending an action and removing the size limit, maybe an option would be to use the same cr table as circle of the moon druid
That’s been the general consensus from what I’ve gathered.
The truth is the beasmaster is Good (both tashas and PHB by power and appeal to their specific playstyles)....... However, the immediate benefits of the PHB beast master are Obfuscated or have two step benefits (meaning the benefits are hidden in other rules). Tashas solves the action economy complaints meanwhile the PHB gives a huge trade off for good benefits at a cost.
Here are some PHB benefit examples:
1. chance at poison harvesting. per the dmg it takes 1d6 Min to attempt a harvest DC20 Poison or nature (with a risk under 15). This means in the hour that a wizard is preparing their spells for the day a ranger could get roughly 20 attempts at poison harvesting. (Favored terrain and enemies can apply)
2. extra body benefits. Attunement, concentration, field positioning, Back up actions at 0 HP, Two (or more) statblocks making skills often only needed by one(A ranger can dump wisdom Because the wolf Has PP of 21),
3. Unique traits accessed early. blind sight, burrow or flight speeds, A diseased giant rat can be a one bite death sentence for regeneration enemies.
There is one big mistake/loophole wotc made and through an accident in wording allowed you to bypass it. I would rather just have that fixed. The one big mistake was "not allowing a beasmaster to release their pet To change it out." Now because it can't be released, If it dies and is resurrected you now have two viable options. The action economy prevents a Ranger from really using 2 companions so it functionally becomes a per combat choice. The costs involved roughly match getting a magic item such as a bag of tricks or figurine of wondrous power so its not outside game play power scope.
Another minor thing wotc could have done for the game in general was better beast specific Resurrection spells (assuming the above "Loophole" was fixed). this would be useful for Lots of characters not just rangers. paladins, druids, fighters with favorite horses etc. A cheaper well written beast resurrection option would go a long way.
I think the (Tasha's) Ranger is fine. While Gloomstalker is the most powerful Rangewr subclass, Beastmaster is at least the equal of other subclasses. Summoning more creatures would be messy, making them the same power as the current beast would be way OP and several weak creatures really slows down combat, (which is why conjure animals will not make ONE D&D final release). Having the option to be large would be OK at a later stage but not necessary, and because it is in fixed form all day if in the middle of the day you unexpectedly need to investigate an indoor area you might find your beast can not come along. Few campagnes get to the level where the drakewarden can have a large drake anyway.
I think the (Tasha's) Ranger is fine. While Gloomstalker is the most powerful Rangewr subclass, Beastmaster is at least the equal of other subclasses. Summoning more creatures would be messy, making them the same power as the current beast would be way OP and several weak creatures really slows down combat, (which is why conjure animals will not make ONE D&D final release). Having the option to be large would be OK at a later stage but not necessary, and because it is in fixed form all day if in the middle of the day you unexpectedly need to investigate an indoor area you might find your beast can not come along. Few campagnes get to the level where the drakewarden can have a large drake anyway.
Well, what I was thinking was that as you level up your beast can also level up to get bigger or you could break it down into several smaller beasts. As for going indoors, you could just resummon the beast as a smaller creature. I just always think of beast master being more epic than a medium sized creature or even a large. I think of how to train your pet dragon or Pokémon or Danerys from Game of Thrones or other things where a character has a beast. Danerys is probably the best example as you see her dragons leveling up until they are super epic in the last season.
There's potential for turning spells like conjure animals into a mob/swarm stat block but if they don't also add unique traits by choice it probably wouldn't be accepted.
Wotc is also very controlled on size rules because it breaks certain standards they try to keep tight reigns on. (Area of op attack reach, grappling, restraining, speed/movement stacks, ect)
There's potential for turning spells like conjure animals into a mob/swarm stat block but if they don't also add unique traits by choice it probably wouldn't be accepted.
Wotc is also very controlled on size rules because it breaks certain standards they try to keep tight reigns on. (Area of op attack reach, grappling, restraining, speed/movement stacks, ect)
Did you see the test play for the giant subclasses?
First of all, I think that with Tasha's, Beast Master is allready good. But, to tweak it a little bit so it conforms to the new subclass feature distribution and answer some of the issues people still have with it:
At 3rd level - use Tasha's action economy and resurrection rules, change the speeds of Beast of the Sea to something like 25 walking/45 swimming so it is useful in non-aquatic campaigns without resorting to some Pokeball-like magic item that lets you carry it between encounters and plop out beside an enemy when it's time for grappling; people seem to want more options than the three, but WotC is moving more into statblocks to reskin yourself rather than consulting the Monster's Manual for summons etc., so maybe add a 4th stat block, maybe something like small size Beast of the Dark with burrowing speed and additional poison damage and/or "target can't regain hit points" rider?
6th level - the first half of Exceptional Training is redundant with Tasha's action economy (well, it's even inferior to it, but that's not the topic), so we're left with the part saying our companion's attacks count as magical. Maybe throw in a rule that our attacks also count as magical while we're in some proximity (10ft? 30ft?) of the companion?
10th level - extra attack of the companion stays, plus maybe the size of companion can become one larger or if it's too early for that, you can mount a medium beast if you're medium?
14th level - sharing spells stays, plus, if it's not implemented at 10th level, size increase for the companion?
There's potential for turning spells like conjure animals into a mob/swarm stat block but if they don't also add unique traits by choice it probably wouldn't be accepted.
Wotc is also very controlled on size rules because it breaks certain standards they try to keep tight reigns on. (Area of op attack reach, grappling, restraining, speed/movement stacks, ect)
Did you see the test play for the giant subclasses?
One example ( or a few) doesn't prove or disprove a general principle. Anecdotes are the bane of rangers. Data gives the real story.
Just because they experimented it doesn't mean they aren't trying to keep it in check. Especially since most versions of such features never made it to print. Still if you compare recent experiments with the past wotc seems more open to size changes. They have re-evaluated the impact but it's still a power boost or part of the "power budget" that needs to stay in scope.
It's hard to say what they will do its all just educated guessing. However, I would rather they just cleared up "beast of burden" to allow carrying same size creatures under mounted rules. That way people that want get to choose it but people that don't will not have it taken from their "power budget."
I have seen some theorycrafts around WIS-based Shillelagh Rangers Beastmasters. Since you max Wisdom, your save DC and spell attack will be great so you can explore controlling spells like Entangle and also invest big time in the minionmancy game through Summon Beast.
Never played, never saw one in action, but it sounds a really cool, fun and effective build.
I have seen some theorycrafts around WIS-based Shillelagh Rangers Beastmasters. Since you max Wisdom, your save DC and spell attack will be great so you can explore controlling spells like Entangle and also invest big time in the minionmancy game through Summon Beast.
Never played, never saw one in action, but it sounds a really cool, fun and effective build.
It's certainly viable, probably the biggest drawback is as you are casting Shillelagh the beast does nothing (other than move and dodge) on the first turn in combat. It might not matter too much for very long fights but if most of your combats are 3 or 4 rounds that is a big drawback. It also means you can't get the damage benefits of sharpshooter or GWM meaning those feats are not worth taking.
I have seen some theorycrafts around WIS-based Shillelagh Rangers Beastmasters. Since you max Wisdom, your save DC and spell attack will be great so you can explore controlling spells like Entangle and also invest big time in the minionmancy game through Summon Beast.
Never played, never saw one in action, but it sounds a really cool, fun and effective build.
It's certainly viable, probably the biggest drawback is as you are casting Shillelagh the beast does nothing (other than move and dodge) on the first turn in combat. It might not matter too much for very long fights but if most of your combats are 3 or 4 rounds that is a big drawback. It also means you can't get the damage benefits of sharpshooter or GWM meaning those feats are not worth taking.
A phb ranger could still attack with shillelagh and get some attacks off but that requires advanced tactics. I find thornwhip to usually be the easier choice for such turns. And If you can position yourself right you might still get "extra damage" on someone else's turn.
If you take a poison pet and harvest even on the turns it doesn't attack you can still get damage but then you need a weapon or ammo that does piercing or slash damage. (So not a wisdom build)
I have seen some theorycrafts around WIS-based Shillelagh Rangers Beastmasters. Since you max Wisdom, your save DC and spell attack will be great so you can explore controlling spells like Entangle and also invest big time in the minionmancy game through Summon Beast.
Never played, never saw one in action, but it sounds a really cool, fun and effective build.
It's certainly viable, probably the biggest drawback is as you are casting Shillelagh the beast does nothing (other than move and dodge) on the first turn in combat. It might not matter too much for very long fights but if most of your combats are 3 or 4 rounds that is a big drawback. It also means you can't get the damage benefits of sharpshooter or GWM meaning those feats are not worth taking.
A phb ranger could still attack with shillelagh and get some attacks off but that requires advanced tactics. I find thornwhip to usually be the easier choice for such turns. And If you can position yourself right you might still get "extra damage" on someone else's turn.
If you take a poison pet and harvest even on the turns it doesn't attack you can still get damage but then you need a weapon or ammo that does piercing or slash damage. (So not a wisdom build)
A PHB ranger does not have access to shillelagh. They could take a level in Druid but that is quite a price (and an optional rule).
The rules for extracting poison are also very vague so you would need to agree things with your DM regarding the nature of the poison and how often you can extract it (this could be anything from extracting the poison removes the poison gland so can only be done once to every 1d6 minutes)
I have seen some theorycrafts around WIS-based Shillelagh Rangers Beastmasters. Since you max Wisdom, your save DC and spell attack will be great so you can explore controlling spells like Entangle and also invest big time in the minionmancy game through Summon Beast.
Never played, never saw one in action, but it sounds a really cool, fun and effective build.
It's certainly viable, probably the biggest drawback is as you are casting Shillelagh the beast does nothing (other than move and dodge) on the first turn in combat. It might not matter too much for very long fights but if most of your combats are 3 or 4 rounds that is a big drawback. It also means you can't get the damage benefits of sharpshooter or GWM meaning those feats are not worth taking.
A phb ranger could still attack with shillelagh and get some attacks off but that requires advanced tactics. I find thornwhip to usually be the easier choice for such turns. And If you can position yourself right you might still get "extra damage" on someone else's turn.
If you take a poison pet and harvest even on the turns it doesn't attack you can still get damage but then you need a weapon or ammo that does piercing or slash damage. (So not a wisdom build)
A PHB ranger does not have access to shillelagh. They could take a level in Druid but that is quite a price (and an optional rule).
The rules for extracting poison are also very vague so you would need to agree things with your DM regarding the nature of the poison and how often you can extract it (this could be anything from extracting the poison removes the poison gland so can only be done once to every 1d6 minutes)
Phb beastmaster can still use the druidic warrior fighting style.(or take feats or multiclass)
And as for harvesting. it would at least break the established standards to limit it because any activity is repeatable by default like stabilize(the time also implies a refresh rate). Features that maintain their prerequisites remain repeatable (poisonous creature that is unconscious(asleep) for poison "not stable" for stabilize). some common examples stabilize, special attacks, dashing etc. Most dms will at least allow once a day/long rest. So it's still a "save able" resource so it's a unique benefit that can be reserved for taking advantage of opportunities with the most effective use.
Now whether or not it was intended to be a limited feature is a different story and I hope one dnd(5er) will at least make it clear. I actually think wotc realized their mistake with live creatures. I have asked the team every time they had open questions but never got a response. It's my belief that they realized it had huge "Potential Power" but it also was a boost for the subclass that needed it most. Hence, deliberately allowing it to stay semi-vague.
I have seen some theorycrafts around WIS-based Shillelagh Rangers Beastmasters. Since you max Wisdom, your save DC and spell attack will be great so you can explore controlling spells like Entangle and also invest big time in the minionmancy game through Summon Beast.
Never played, never saw one in action, but it sounds a really cool, fun and effective build.
It's certainly viable, probably the biggest drawback is as you are casting Shillelagh the beast does nothing (other than move and dodge) on the first turn in combat. It might not matter too much for very long fights but if most of your combats are 3 or 4 rounds that is a big drawback. It also means you can't get the damage benefits of sharpshooter or GWM meaning those feats are not worth taking.
A phb ranger could still attack with shillelagh and get some attacks off but that requires advanced tactics. I find thornwhip to usually be the easier choice for such turns. And If you can position yourself right you might still get "extra damage" on someone else's turn.
If you take a poison pet and harvest even on the turns it doesn't attack you can still get damage but then you need a weapon or ammo that does piercing or slash damage. (So not a wisdom build)
A PHB ranger does not have access to shillelagh. They could take a level in Druid but that is quite a price (and an optional rule).
The rules for extracting poison are also very vague so you would need to agree things with your DM regarding the nature of the poison and how often you can extract it (this could be anything from extracting the poison removes the poison gland so can only be done once to every 1d6 minutes)
Phb beastmaster can still use the druidic warrior fighting style.
And as for harvesting. it would at least break the established standards because any activity is repeatable by default like stableize(the time also implies a refresh rate). Most dms will at least allow once a day/long rest. So it's still a "save able" resource so it's a unique benefit that can be reserved for taking advantage of opportunities with the most effective use.
If you pick variant human Magic Initiate Druid is another way to get shillelagh and perhaps get dueling at 2nd and perhaps PAM at a higher level
Like all rangers, with the possible exception of the gloomstalker, the beastmaster is not a straight combat character nor a straight casting character. This makes it harder to play which made a number of folks think it was a weaker character. It wasn’t and isn’t, it is a very strong character but it’s a very tactical character calling for something more than straight hack and slash or castings. The PHB ranger has no access to spells like shillelagh or booming blade etc as they and their access routes come in later books. So too did the other more combat oriented alternative abilities. The beastmaster with his beast was perhaps the most nature/exploration oriented PC in the game but if you are going to cinematic the travel and exploration leg to focus on the social and combat legs then obviously your cutting the subclass off at the knees. But then the same is true for pretty much any class, go low magic with little access to spells and the mage is going to be limited, go exploration- combat and the bard gets cut off,, go social and exploration with little to no combat and the fighter, Paladin, barbarian are all powerless or nearly so. The beastmaster doesn’t need a power boost, it needs the third leg of the game brought back into balance - guidelines for tracking, finding food, avoiding potential foes, dealing with wild animals (including monstrosities like the owlbear), getting lost etc.
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Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
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With the new edition well on its way, what would anyone think would be good changes to the beast master? Let’s get the ball rolling early since from what I understand this is one of the least liked subclasses in the game.
I think for one the size of your beast should increase based on your level like the Drakewarden. There was even the primeval Druid that was supposed to come out that went all the way to huge. I would also think it would be good if the beast master could summon more creatures as your level goes up so you can actually feel like a beast master.
What does everyone think?
my idea would be commanding the beast without spending an action and removing the size limit, maybe an option would be to use the same cr table as circle of the moon druid
That’s been the general consensus from what I’ve gathered.
The truth is the beasmaster is Good (both tashas and PHB by power and appeal to their specific playstyles)....... However, the immediate benefits of the PHB beast master are Obfuscated or have two step benefits (meaning the benefits are hidden in other rules). Tashas solves the action economy complaints meanwhile the PHB gives a huge trade off for good benefits at a cost.
Here are some PHB benefit examples:
1. chance at poison harvesting. per the dmg it takes 1d6 Min to attempt a harvest DC20 Poison or nature (with a risk under 15). This means in the hour that a wizard is preparing their spells for the day a ranger could get roughly 20 attempts at poison harvesting. (Favored terrain and enemies can apply)
2. extra body benefits. Attunement, concentration, field positioning, Back up actions at 0 HP, Two (or more) statblocks making skills often only needed by one(A ranger can dump wisdom Because the wolf Has PP of 21),
3. Unique traits accessed early. blind sight, burrow or flight speeds, A diseased giant rat can be a one bite death sentence for regeneration enemies.
There is one big mistake/loophole wotc made and through an accident in wording allowed you to bypass it. I would rather just have that fixed. The one big mistake was "not allowing a beasmaster to release their pet To change it out." Now because it can't be released, If it dies and is resurrected you now have two viable options. The action economy prevents a Ranger from really using 2 companions so it functionally becomes a per combat choice. The costs involved roughly match getting a magic item such as a bag of tricks or figurine of wondrous power so its not outside game play power scope.
Another minor thing wotc could have done for the game in general was better beast specific Resurrection spells (assuming the above "Loophole" was fixed). this would be useful for Lots of characters not just rangers. paladins, druids, fighters with favorite horses etc. A cheaper well written beast resurrection option would go a long way.
I think the (Tasha's) Ranger is fine. While Gloomstalker is the most powerful Rangewr subclass, Beastmaster is at least the equal of other subclasses. Summoning more creatures would be messy, making them the same power as the current beast would be way OP and several weak creatures really slows down combat, (which is why conjure animals will not make ONE D&D final release). Having the option to be large would be OK at a later stage but not necessary, and because it is in fixed form all day if in the middle of the day you unexpectedly need to investigate an indoor area you might find your beast can not come along. Few campagnes get to the level where the drakewarden can have a large drake anyway.
Well, what I was thinking was that as you level up your beast can also level up to get bigger or you could break it down into several smaller beasts. As for going indoors, you could just resummon the beast as a smaller creature. I just always think of beast master being more epic than a medium sized creature or even a large. I think of how to train your pet dragon or Pokémon or Danerys from Game of Thrones or other things where a character has a beast. Danerys is probably the best example as you see her dragons leveling up until they are super epic in the last season.
There's potential for turning spells like conjure animals into a mob/swarm stat block but if they don't also add unique traits by choice it probably wouldn't be accepted.
Wotc is also very controlled on size rules because it breaks certain standards they try to keep tight reigns on. (Area of op attack reach, grappling, restraining, speed/movement stacks, ect)
Did you see the test play for the giant subclasses?
First of all, I think that with Tasha's, Beast Master is allready good. But, to tweak it a little bit so it conforms to the new subclass feature distribution and answer some of the issues people still have with it:
One example ( or a few) doesn't prove or disprove a general principle. Anecdotes are the bane of rangers. Data gives the real story.
Just because they experimented it doesn't mean they aren't trying to keep it in check. Especially since most versions of such features never made it to print. Still if you compare recent experiments with the past wotc seems more open to size changes. They have re-evaluated the impact but it's still a power boost or part of the "power budget" that needs to stay in scope.
It's hard to say what they will do its all just educated guessing. However, I would rather they just cleared up "beast of burden" to allow carrying same size creatures under mounted rules. That way people that want get to choose it but people that don't will not have it taken from their "power budget."
I have seen some theorycrafts around WIS-based Shillelagh Rangers Beastmasters. Since you max Wisdom, your save DC and spell attack will be great so you can explore controlling spells like Entangle and also invest big time in the minionmancy game through Summon Beast.
Never played, never saw one in action, but it sounds a really cool, fun and effective build.
It's certainly viable, probably the biggest drawback is as you are casting Shillelagh the beast does nothing (other than move and dodge) on the first turn in combat. It might not matter too much for very long fights but if most of your combats are 3 or 4 rounds that is a big drawback. It also means you can't get the damage benefits of sharpshooter or GWM meaning those feats are not worth taking.
A phb ranger could still attack with shillelagh and get some attacks off but that requires advanced tactics. I find thornwhip to usually be the easier choice for such turns. And If you can position yourself right you might still get "extra damage" on someone else's turn.
If you take a poison pet and harvest even on the turns it doesn't attack you can still get damage but then you need a weapon or ammo that does piercing or slash damage. (So not a wisdom build)
A PHB ranger does not have access to shillelagh. They could take a level in Druid but that is quite a price (and an optional rule).
The rules for extracting poison are also very vague so you would need to agree things with your DM regarding the nature of the poison and how often you can extract it (this could be anything from extracting the poison removes the poison gland so can only be done once to every 1d6 minutes)
Phb beastmaster can still use the druidic warrior fighting style.(or take feats or multiclass)
And as for harvesting. it would at least break the established standards to limit it because any activity is repeatable by default like stabilize(the time also implies a refresh rate). Features that maintain their prerequisites remain repeatable (poisonous creature that is unconscious(asleep) for poison "not stable" for stabilize). some common examples stabilize, special attacks, dashing etc. Most dms will at least allow once a day/long rest. So it's still a "save able" resource so it's a unique benefit that can be reserved for taking advantage of opportunities with the most effective use.
Now whether or not it was intended to be a limited feature is a different story and I hope one dnd(5er) will at least make it clear. I actually think wotc realized their mistake with live creatures. I have asked the team every time they had open questions but never got a response. It's my belief that they realized it had huge "Potential Power" but it also was a boost for the subclass that needed it most. Hence, deliberately allowing it to stay semi-vague.
If you pick variant human Magic Initiate Druid is another way to get shillelagh and perhaps get dueling at 2nd and perhaps PAM at a higher level
Like all rangers, with the possible exception of the gloomstalker, the beastmaster is not a straight combat character nor a straight casting character. This makes it harder to play which made a number of folks think it was a weaker character. It wasn’t and isn’t, it is a very strong character but it’s a very tactical character calling for something more than straight hack and slash or castings. The PHB ranger has no access to spells like shillelagh or booming blade etc as they and their access routes come in later books. So too did the other more combat oriented alternative abilities. The beastmaster with his beast was perhaps the most nature/exploration oriented PC in the game but if you are going to cinematic the travel and exploration leg to focus on the social and combat legs then obviously your cutting the subclass off at the knees. But then the same is true for pretty much any class, go low magic with little access to spells and the mage is going to be limited, go exploration- combat and the bard gets cut off,, go social and exploration with little to no combat and the fighter, Paladin, barbarian are all powerless or nearly so. The beastmaster doesn’t need a power boost, it needs the third leg of the game brought back into balance - guidelines for tracking, finding food, avoiding potential foes, dealing with wild animals (including monstrosities like the owlbear), getting lost etc.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.