Optimus, this is literally trying to help your side of an argument you took once. Instead of making up new rules for the ranger abilities (like switching favored terrains) just play the ability as written with a generous heart instead of activity choosing to nerf it.
That's not how the ability is written and honestly I have a completely different perspective on it if you just give them ALL terrains at level 1...that is completely different and changes how I perceive the ability.
That’s not exactly what I’m saying.
You expertise on proficient skills related to your favored terrain. That is my extremely generous take on an unrelated topic. Let’s stick to the point on hand.
I have a question for you. You you prefer the natural explorer ability worked everywhere all the time, stayed the same, or something else? I ask because we all know your preference is the Tasha’s replacement (hooray!), but what is your fix for the ability? You’ve said the ranger is either overpowered or useless depending on terrain, but also seem to see no value in the travel and exploration portion of the game to begin with.
I'm saying the ability would be a lot better if you had the option to swap terrain.
Like if you spent a day or so in the underdark you pick it up faster than most and could swap to underdark.
This fixes the "useless" part of it as you are adaptable and dynamic.
Granted it does not fix the "handwave" portion but that requires a much larger fix to the whole exploration system.
Got it.
How is that different than just having everything on all of the time, in your opinion?
Well everything all at once all the time means that you can benefit instantly in a new environment. While I do not think this is a bad thing overall it would make the feature a lot more powerful....and honestly I am OK with that.
Honestly if I was going to go that approach I would just do the following instead since it would just be easier:
Gain Expertise in two of the following: Nature, Perception, Survival, Animal Handling, or Investigation.
Pick two more of the above expertise at level 10.
And you don’t think that steps on the rogue’s toes? Expertise is is like 60% of what the rogue is as a class.
Optimus, this is literally trying to help your side of an argument you took once. Instead of making up new rules for the ranger abilities (like switching favored terrains) just play the ability as written with a generous heart instead of activity choosing to nerf it.
That's not how the ability is written and honestly I have a completely different perspective on it if you just give them ALL terrains at level 1...that is completely different and changes how I perceive the ability.
That’s not exactly what I’m saying.
You expertise on proficient skills related to your favored terrain. That is my extremely generous take on an unrelated topic. Let’s stick to the point on hand.
I have a question for you. You you prefer the natural explorer ability worked everywhere all the time, stayed the same, or something else? I ask because we all know your preference is the Tasha’s replacement (hooray!), but what is your fix for the ability? You’ve said the ranger is either overpowered or useless depending on terrain, but also seem to see no value in the travel and exploration portion of the game to begin with.
I'm saying the ability would be a lot better if you had the option to swap terrain.
Like if you spent a day or so in the underdark you pick it up faster than most and could swap to underdark.
This fixes the "useless" part of it as you are adaptable and dynamic.
Granted it does not fix the "handwave" portion but that requires a much larger fix to the whole exploration system.
Got it.
How is that different than just having everything on all of the time, in your opinion?
Well everything all at once all the time means that you can benefit instantly in a new environment. While I do not think this is a bad thing overall it would make the feature a lot more powerful....and honestly I am OK with that.
Honestly if I was going to go that approach I would just do the following instead since it would just be easier:
Gain Expertise in two of the following: Nature, Perception, Survival, Animal Handling, or Investigation.
Pick two more of the above expertise at level 10.
And you don’t think that steps on the rogue’s toes? Expertise is is like 60% of what the rogue is as a class.
Ranger already gets expertise in all WIS and INT related to checks to the terrain. If they are already prof in the skill.
If you are going to give them all terrain then it's effectively expertise for all WIS and INT checks all the time when it comes to the terrain.
You may as well give them general expertise and limit it to what they can pick.
Otherwise they have expertise in Perception, Insight, animal handling, medicine, survival, arcana, nature, history, investigation if they are already proficent in them
Granted a few of those likely won't relate to the terrain but a lot will.
Rogue gets a wider pick of expertise and already shares that with Bard so it's not stepping on much IMO
I'm saying the ability would be a lot better if you had the option to swap terrain.
That's the fix you want, but it sounds like the fix you need is to just talk to your DM; when you get a new Natural Explorer choice, just tell them what you're thinking of taking and why, and they can discuss with you if something else might be a better choice and how you can justify it.
You're only going to run into gaps in your coverage if you pick stuff and then your DM takes you places that none of them apply; so make sure that it's definitely a conscious choice that they have made when it happens, rather than you picking something without talking about it first.
Sure, it won't fix Adventurer's League, but that's an entirely different kettle of fish, as it's designed to be as inflexible as possible, even in cases where the format of AL itself is specifically the cause of the problems.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I'm saying the ability would be a lot better if you had the option to swap terrain.
That's the fix you want, but it sounds like the fix you need is to just talk to your DM; when you get a new Natural Explorer choice, just tell them what you're thinking of taking and why, and they can discuss with you if something else might be a better choice and how you can justify it.
You're only going to run into gaps in your coverage if you pick stuff and then your DM takes you places that none of them apply; so make sure that it's definitely a conscious choice that they have made when it happens, rather than you picking something without talking about it first.
Sure, it won't fix Adventurer's League, but that's an entirely different kettle of fish, as it's designed to be as inflexible as possible, even in cases where the format of AL itself is specifically the cause of the problems.
Well even in Faerun you can run into several different biomes. Chult is a great example as you are a relatively small space and randomness when it comes to what hex you start on and work your way into areas you might not expect...and maybe the DM doesn't want to spoil?
I just do not understand while swapping would be a big deal as you can still only have one going at a time until 6th level then 10th....would be cool to be swapping them out and would allow you do pick potentially crazier options like Feywild, plane of fire, etc... depending on where your travels take you.
Optimus, this is literally trying to help your side of an argument you took once. Instead of making up new rules for the ranger abilities (like switching favored terrains) just play the ability as written with a generous heart instead of activity choosing to nerf it.
That's not how the ability is written and honestly I have a completely different perspective on it if you just give them ALL terrains at level 1...that is completely different and changes how I perceive the ability.
That’s not exactly what I’m saying.
You expertise on proficient skills related to your favored terrain. That is my extremely generous take on an unrelated topic. Let’s stick to the point on hand.
I have a question for you. You you prefer the natural explorer ability worked everywhere all the time, stayed the same, or something else? I ask because we all know your preference is the Tasha’s replacement (hooray!), but what is your fix for the ability? You’ve said the ranger is either overpowered or useless depending on terrain, but also seem to see no value in the travel and exploration portion of the game to begin with.
I'm saying the ability would be a lot better if you had the option to swap terrain.
Like if you spent a day or so in the underdark you pick it up faster than most and could swap to underdark.
This fixes the "useless" part of it as you are adaptable and dynamic.
Granted it does not fix the "handwave" portion but that requires a much larger fix to the whole exploration system.
Got it.
How is that different than just having everything on all of the time, in your opinion?
Well everything all at once all the time means that you can benefit instantly in a new environment. While I do not think this is a bad thing overall it would make the feature a lot more powerful....and honestly I am OK with that.
Honestly if I was going to go that approach I would just do the following instead since it would just be easier:
Gain Expertise in two of the following: Nature, Perception, Survival, Animal Handling, or Investigation.
Pick two more of the above expertise at level 10.
And you don’t think that steps on the rogue’s toes? Expertise is is like 60% of what the rogue is as a class.
Ranger already gets expertise in all WIS and INT related to checks to the terrain. If they are already prof in the skill.
If you are going to give them all terrain then it's effectively expertise for all WIS and INT checks all the time when it comes to the terrain.
You may as well give them general expertise and limit it to what they can pick.
Otherwise they have expertise in Perception, Insight, animal handling, medicine, survival, arcana, nature, history, investigation if they are already proficent in them
Granted a few of those likely won't relate to the terrain but a lot will.
Rogue gets a wider pick of expertise and already shares that with Bard so it's not stepping on much IMO
Ok. And don’t you think the width of possible skill expertise in a come and go terrain is what balances against the rogue and bard? Doing what they do, in their element(s), a ranger can have lots of expertise.
This all comes together. You say exploration and travel needs to involve everyone in the party. The ranger having limitations allows for that. When in their terrain the ranger shines, but not all of the time every time.
Doesn’t that actually fit with most of what you’ve been talking about?
Optimus, this is literally trying to help your side of an argument you took once. Instead of making up new rules for the ranger abilities (like switching favored terrains) just play the ability as written with a generous heart instead of activity choosing to nerf it.
That's not how the ability is written and honestly I have a completely different perspective on it if you just give them ALL terrains at level 1...that is completely different and changes how I perceive the ability.
That’s not exactly what I’m saying.
You expertise on proficient skills related to your favored terrain. That is my extremely generous take on an unrelated topic. Let’s stick to the point on hand.
I have a question for you. You you prefer the natural explorer ability worked everywhere all the time, stayed the same, or something else? I ask because we all know your preference is the Tasha’s replacement (hooray!), but what is your fix for the ability? You’ve said the ranger is either overpowered or useless depending on terrain, but also seem to see no value in the travel and exploration portion of the game to begin with.
I'm saying the ability would be a lot better if you had the option to swap terrain.
Like if you spent a day or so in the underdark you pick it up faster than most and could swap to underdark.
This fixes the "useless" part of it as you are adaptable and dynamic.
Granted it does not fix the "handwave" portion but that requires a much larger fix to the whole exploration system.
Got it.
How is that different than just having everything on all of the time, in your opinion?
Well everything all at once all the time means that you can benefit instantly in a new environment. While I do not think this is a bad thing overall it would make the feature a lot more powerful....and honestly I am OK with that.
Honestly if I was going to go that approach I would just do the following instead since it would just be easier:
Gain Expertise in two of the following: Nature, Perception, Survival, Animal Handling, or Investigation.
Pick two more of the above expertise at level 10.
And you don’t think that steps on the rogue’s toes? Expertise is is like 60% of what the rogue is as a class.
Ranger already gets expertise in all WIS and INT related to checks to the terrain. If they are already prof in the skill.
If you are going to give them all terrain then it's effectively expertise for all WIS and INT checks all the time when it comes to the terrain.
You may as well give them general expertise and limit it to what they can pick.
Otherwise they have expertise in Perception, Insight, animal handling, medicine, survival, arcana, nature, history, investigation if they are already proficent in them
Granted a few of those likely won't relate to the terrain but a lot will.
Rogue gets a wider pick of expertise and already shares that with Bard so it's not stepping on much IMO
Ok. And don’t you think the width of possible skill expertise in a come and go terrain is what balances against the rogue and bard? Doing what they do, in their element(s), a ranger can have lots of expertise.
This all comes together. You say exploration and travel needs to involve everyone in the party. The ranger having limitations allows for that. When in their terrain the ranger shines, but not all of the time every time.
Doesn’t that actually fit with most of what you’ve been talking about?
No not really....since they are either:
1. Hard locked to one terrain until they can pick another
2. Unable to adapt on the fly to pick another.
Its just a rarity that you have a single biome that aligns enough to make it worth while MOST of the time in my experience. Rangers in my system would at least be able to swap to the new terrain after some time allowing the party to help them out as they got their bearings.
Maybe we just get to see more of the world in the setting we are in? We go from artic seas to plains to mountains etc....In fact thats the oddest thing about ranger.
They are not explorers....explorers go to places they do not know and learn about them. Adapt to their surroundings and make their mark on it.
Rangers are terrain experts. Once you start talking about a different terrain or actually go into another one you lose your edge.
At least the Tasha's stuff encourages you to actually explore NEW places.
Rangers in 5E are an expert of a land and creature.
Rogues in 5E are an expert of skills.
I hear how you want a ranger to be/play, but that is not the design intent. You need to look at these class abilities as part of the entire kit (spells included). All spokes of a wheel. This one feature cannot and is not designed to be the entire package of exploration and travel.
Rangers in 5E are an expert of a land and creature.
Rogues in 5E are an expert of skills.
I hear how you want a ranger to be/play, but that is not the design intent. You need to look at these class abilities as part of the entire kit (spells included). All spokes of a wheel. This one feature cannot and is not designed to be the entire package of exploration and travel.
I mean I would beg to differ....
Ranger gets 3 skill proficiencies compared to the 2 fighters, barbarians, paladins, and monks get.
Tasha's moved to giving them Expertise in one of the skills.
It definitely appears as if they had some intent in giving Rangers more skills/higher use of skills compared to MOST martials.
They are somewhere between rogues and the rest of the martials in skills....they also get a way to get ADV on skill checks (FE) and expertise (NE) so they are definitely intended to use said skills....they just gave them less chances to use it for some reason.
terrains overlap period. chult is a prime example.
even when not in your terrain the "main" boost of understanding your terrain does not go away. I played a desert ranger in a forest for the all ranger only game we play. I have already used PHB ranger skills much as any of the tasha's options. maybe more. a few people can confirm this.
terrains overlap period. chult is a prime example.
even when not in your terrain the "main" boost of understanding your terrain does not go away. I played a desert ranger in a forest for the all ranger only game we play. I have already used PHB ranger skills much as any of the tasha's options. maybe more. a few people can confirm this.
Still at least 5 separate different biomes exist so you are left with 1/5 most of the time.
Overlap occurs less often than one would think based on the hexes I can see...looking at the map now.
Also based on travel speed you could spend upwards of a week or more NOT in your terrain....its somewhat random so it could be a bad deal depending on where you start.
Rangers in 5E are an expert of a land and creature.
Rogues in 5E are an expert of skills.
I hear how you want a ranger to be/play, but that is not the design intent. You need to look at these class abilities as part of the entire kit (spells included). All spokes of a wheel. This one feature cannot and is not designed to be the entire package of exploration and travel.
I mean I would beg to differ....
Ranger gets 3 skill proficiencies compared to the 2 fighters, barbarians, paladins, and monks get.
Tasha's moved to giving them Expertise in one of the skills.
It definitely appears as if they had some intent in giving Rangers more skills/higher use of skills compared to MOST martials.
They are somewhere between rogues and the rest of the martials in skills....they also get a way to get ADV on skill checks (FE) and expertise (NE) so they are definitely intended to use said skills....they just gave them less chances to use it for some reason.
Well that only strengthens my point. Rangers are martial characters first and foremost. Not full spell casters. Not skill experts. They are meant to fight, but with flavor. Like a paladin, they have a side purpose, and that is nature and travel, versus the paladin’s protection snd healing. Compared to a paladin or fighter, rangers are off the charts in the skills and exploration department.
The PHB ranger has spells, FE x 3, NE x 3, PA, land’s stride, and HiPS, all to make them experts. All on top of beings top tier in combat, second in ranged martial combat only to high level fighter with the same focus. And that is how it should be. Fighters fight. That’s it. Rogues use skills. That’s it.
terrains overlap period. chult is a prime example.
even when not in your terrain the "main" boost of understanding your terrain does not go away. I played a desert ranger in a forest for the all ranger only game we play. I have already used PHB ranger skills much as any of the tasha's options. maybe more. a few people can confirm this.
Still at least 5 separate different biomes exist so you are left with 1/5 most of the time.
Overlap occurs less often than one would think based on the hexes I can see...looking at the map now.
Also based on travel speed you could spend upwards of a week or more NOT in your terrain....its somewhat random so it could be a bad deal depending on where you start.
you are no longer following the conversation and just repeating old misleading information. thanks for your opinion. good bye.
Rangers in 5E are an expert of a land and creature.
Rogues in 5E are an expert of skills.
I hear how you want a ranger to be/play, but that is not the design intent. You need to look at these class abilities as part of the entire kit (spells included). All spokes of a wheel. This one feature cannot and is not designed to be the entire package of exploration and travel.
I mean I would beg to differ....
Ranger gets 3 skill proficiencies compared to the 2 fighters, barbarians, paladins, and monks get.
Tasha's moved to giving them Expertise in one of the skills.
It definitely appears as if they had some intent in giving Rangers more skills/higher use of skills compared to MOST martials.
They are somewhere between rogues and the rest of the martials in skills....they also get a way to get ADV on skill checks (FE) and expertise (NE) so they are definitely intended to use said skills....they just gave them less chances to use it for some reason.
Well that only strengthens my point. Rangers are martial characters first and foremost. Not full spell casters. Not skill experts. They are meant to fight, but with flavor. Like a paladin, they have a side purpose, and that is nature and travel, versus the paladin’s protection snd healing. Compared to a paladin or fighter, rangers are off the charts in the skills and exploration department.
The PHB ranger has spells, FE x 3, NE x 3, PA, land’s stride, and HiPS, all to make them experts. All on top of beings top tier in combat, second in ranged martial combat only to high level fighter with the same focus. And that is how it should be. Fighters fight. That’s it. Rogues use skills. That’s it.
If they could reliably use the skills I would agree with that.
But since they are too limited in terrain I would disagree with that part. The rest i agree with though their damage from 11th on is mostly relying on conjure animals to remain competitive with fighter with feats but that's ok as most stuff ends by 10th level.
They can reliably use all the tools in the toolbox, skills being one of those. And often they have expertise in those skills.
Conjure animals doesn’t have to be the only way they deal damage. Ranger’s can take feats too. Their subclass provides damage bumps at levels 3 and 11.
If this conversation moves from ranger v rogue with skills to ranger v fighter with damage, it will have the same outcome.
The ranger does both, and them some, but each of those two other classes are purely and uniquely focused on doing that one thing they do. Let them. Rangers can do both things. Each of the others can’t do the other thing.
They can reliably use all the tools in the toolbox, skills being one of those. And often they have expertise in those skills.
Conjure animals doesn’t have to be the only way they deal damage. Ranger’s can take feats too. Their subclass provides damage bumps at levels 3 and 11.
If this conversation moves from ranger v rogue with skills to ranger v fighter with damage, it will have the same outcome.
The ranger does both, and them some, but each of those two other classes are purely and uniquely focused on doing that one thing they do. Let them. Rangers can do both things. Each of the others can’t do the other thing.
Rangers do rely on spells for damage at 11 most of the time.
But you are right we digress.
Overall I would like to see more changes for PHB ranger but that remains to be seen if they will.
Beast master got some changes so there is always hope
They can reliably use all the tools in the toolbox, skills being one of those. And often they have expertise in those skills.
Conjure animals doesn’t have to be the only way they deal damage. Ranger’s can take feats too. Their subclass provides damage bumps at levels 3 and 11.
If this conversation moves from ranger v rogue with skills to ranger v fighter with damage, it will have the same outcome.
The ranger does both, and them some, but each of those two other classes are purely and uniquely focused on doing that one thing they do. Let them. Rangers can do both things. Each of the others can’t do the other thing.
Rangers do rely on spells for damage at 11 most of the time.
But you are right we digress.
Overall I would like to see more changes for PHB ranger but that remains to be seen if they will.
Beast master got some changes so there is always hope
They sure do! Just like the paladin. And just like the fighters use their class abilities, as spells are a class ability for rangers and paladins. Beast masters, either, are the highest non-spell use damage dealer of the ranger subclasses however
There apparently some confusion and disagreement on how the commands work with the new optional primal beast and the level 7+ abilities. My money is on another minor errata to the language and function of the PHB beast master subclass abilities.
They can reliably use all the tools in the toolbox, skills being one of those. And often they have expertise in those skills.
Conjure animals doesn’t have to be the only way they deal damage. Ranger’s can take feats too. Their subclass provides damage bumps at levels 3 and 11.
If this conversation moves from ranger v rogue with skills to ranger v fighter with damage, it will have the same outcome.
The ranger does both, and them some, but each of those two other classes are purely and uniquely focused on doing that one thing they do. Let them. Rangers can do both things. Each of the others can’t do the other thing.
Rangers do rely on spells for damage at 11 most of the time.
But you are right we digress.
Overall I would like to see more changes for PHB ranger but that remains to be seen if they will.
Beast master got some changes so there is always hope
There apparently some confusion and disagreement on how the commands work with the new optional primal beast and the level 7+ abilities. My money is on another minor errata to the language and function of the PHB beast master subclass abilities.
And you don’t think that steps on the rogue’s toes? Expertise is is like 60% of what the rogue is as a class.
Ranger already gets expertise in all WIS and INT related to checks to the terrain. If they are already prof in the skill.
If you are going to give them all terrain then it's effectively expertise for all WIS and INT checks all the time when it comes to the terrain.
You may as well give them general expertise and limit it to what they can pick.
Otherwise they have expertise in Perception, Insight, animal handling, medicine, survival, arcana, nature, history, investigation if they are already proficent in them
Granted a few of those likely won't relate to the terrain but a lot will.
Rogue gets a wider pick of expertise and already shares that with Bard so it's not stepping on much IMO
That's the fix you want, but it sounds like the fix you need is to just talk to your DM; when you get a new Natural Explorer choice, just tell them what you're thinking of taking and why, and they can discuss with you if something else might be a better choice and how you can justify it.
You're only going to run into gaps in your coverage if you pick stuff and then your DM takes you places that none of them apply; so make sure that it's definitely a conscious choice that they have made when it happens, rather than you picking something without talking about it first.
Sure, it won't fix Adventurer's League, but that's an entirely different kettle of fish, as it's designed to be as inflexible as possible, even in cases where the format of AL itself is specifically the cause of the problems.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Well even in Faerun you can run into several different biomes. Chult is a great example as you are a relatively small space and randomness when it comes to what hex you start on and work your way into areas you might not expect...and maybe the DM doesn't want to spoil?
I just do not understand while swapping would be a big deal as you can still only have one going at a time until 6th level then 10th....would be cool to be swapping them out and would allow you do pick potentially crazier options like Feywild, plane of fire, etc... depending on where your travels take you.
Ok. And don’t you think the width of possible skill expertise in a come and go terrain is what balances against the rogue and bard? Doing what they do, in their element(s), a ranger can have lots of expertise.
This all comes together. You say exploration and travel needs to involve everyone in the party. The ranger having limitations allows for that. When in their terrain the ranger shines, but not all of the time every time.
Doesn’t that actually fit with most of what you’ve been talking about?
No not really....since they are either:
1. Hard locked to one terrain until they can pick another
2. Unable to adapt on the fly to pick another.
Its just a rarity that you have a single biome that aligns enough to make it worth while MOST of the time in my experience. Rangers in my system would at least be able to swap to the new terrain after some time allowing the party to help them out as they got their bearings.
Maybe we just get to see more of the world in the setting we are in? We go from artic seas to plains to mountains etc....In fact thats the oddest thing about ranger.
They are not explorers....explorers go to places they do not know and learn about them. Adapt to their surroundings and make their mark on it.
Rangers are terrain experts. Once you start talking about a different terrain or actually go into another one you lose your edge.
At least the Tasha's stuff encourages you to actually explore NEW places.
Rangers in 5E are an expert of a land and creature.
Rogues in 5E are an expert of skills.
I hear how you want a ranger to be/play, but that is not the design intent. You need to look at these class abilities as part of the entire kit (spells included). All spokes of a wheel. This one feature cannot and is not designed to be the entire package of exploration and travel.
I mean I would beg to differ....
Ranger gets 3 skill proficiencies compared to the 2 fighters, barbarians, paladins, and monks get.
Tasha's moved to giving them Expertise in one of the skills.
It definitely appears as if they had some intent in giving Rangers more skills/higher use of skills compared to MOST martials.
They are somewhere between rogues and the rest of the martials in skills....they also get a way to get ADV on skill checks (FE) and expertise (NE) so they are definitely intended to use said skills....they just gave them less chances to use it for some reason.
terrains overlap period. chult is a prime example.
even when not in your terrain the "main" boost of understanding your terrain does not go away. I played a desert ranger in a forest for the all ranger only game we play. I have already used PHB ranger skills much as any of the tasha's options. maybe more. a few people can confirm this.
Still at least 5 separate different biomes exist so you are left with 1/5 most of the time.
Overlap occurs less often than one would think based on the hexes I can see...looking at the map now.
Also based on travel speed you could spend upwards of a week or more NOT in your terrain....its somewhat random so it could be a bad deal depending on where you start.
Well that only strengthens my point. Rangers are martial characters first and foremost. Not full spell casters. Not skill experts. They are meant to fight, but with flavor. Like a paladin, they have a side purpose, and that is nature and travel, versus the paladin’s protection snd healing. Compared to a paladin or fighter, rangers are off the charts in the skills and exploration department.
The PHB ranger has spells, FE x 3, NE x 3, PA, land’s stride, and HiPS, all to make them experts. All on top of beings top tier in combat, second in ranged martial combat only to high level fighter with the same focus. And that is how it should be. Fighters fight. That’s it. Rogues use skills. That’s it.
you are no longer following the conversation and just repeating old misleading information. thanks for your opinion. good bye.
If they could reliably use the skills I would agree with that.
But since they are too limited in terrain I would disagree with that part. The rest i agree with though their damage from 11th on is mostly relying on conjure animals to remain competitive with fighter with feats but that's ok as most stuff ends by 10th level.
They can reliably use all the tools in the toolbox, skills being one of those. And often they have expertise in those skills.
Conjure animals doesn’t have to be the only way they deal damage. Ranger’s can take feats too. Their subclass provides damage bumps at levels 3 and 11.
If this conversation moves from ranger v rogue with skills to ranger v fighter with damage, it will have the same outcome.
The ranger does both, and them some, but each of those two other classes are purely and uniquely focused on doing that one thing they do. Let them. Rangers can do both things. Each of the others can’t do the other thing.
Rangers do rely on spells for damage at 11 most of the time.
But you are right we digress.
Overall I would like to see more changes for PHB ranger but that remains to be seen if they will.
Beast master got some changes so there is always hope
They sure do! Just like the paladin. And just like the fighters use their class abilities, as spells are a class ability for rangers and paladins. Beast masters, either, are the highest non-spell use damage dealer of the ranger subclasses however
There apparently some confusion and disagreement on how the commands work with the new optional primal beast and the level 7+ abilities. My money is on another minor errata to the language and function of the PHB beast master subclass abilities.
I would guess the same.
They’ll do something like move to a bonus action command for all/any action for the PHB beast master right at level 3.
I think that's a fair move. Really make that subclass pop.
Great!
Its settled!
Lets email Jeremy and tell him out decision.