That seems overly complicated, and keeping HM as concentration is the main problem have with it. I would bet that 6e HM is just going to be something Rangers get, like the Rogue sneak attack, but it triggers every attack, starts as a d4, goes up a dice to a d6 at 5, d8 at 11 and a d10 at 17.
It being a free resource with concentration ( you can always use it but its lower damage) is one way to go. Making it always on with every attack and no concentration is pretty big deal....I assume you would limit it to a certain amount of uses per day?
Nope, the only limit is that you can only have one active target marked, but you can BA to apply it to any target, otherwise it just is something they can do
Seems a bit crazy with other spells or MC then as you could pick up Hex with shadow touched and do 2d6 damage pretty much all the time....
Not really. You can pick up a level of rogue and add 2d6 pretty much all the time right now, so, under my proposed HM, if a level 6 character (because it isn't a d6 until 5) wants to take 5 levels of Ranger, and somehow has a 13 CHA to grab a level of Warlock to get 2 d6 on their attacks, and lose the ability to use any other concentration spell like Hail of Thorns then go for it
2d6 once per round not per attack which is much different and also takes two levels of rogue to get there vs a single feat....
No MC needed to get Hex just shadow touched.
A v human could start with it with no additional class investment
1 level of Rogue, the d6 from sneak and the d6 from HM, but sure, it isn't on each attack so you get a whole extra ~3 points of damage with 2 attacks, not what I would call game breaking
That seems overly complicated, and keeping HM as concentration is the main problem have with it. I would bet that 6e HM is just going to be something Rangers get, like the Rogue sneak attack, but it triggers every attack, starts as a d4, goes up a dice to a d6 at 5, d8 at 11 and a d10 at 17.
It being a free resource with concentration ( you can always use it but its lower damage) is one way to go. Making it always on with every attack and no concentration is pretty big deal....I assume you would limit it to a certain amount of uses per day?
Nope, the only limit is that you can only have one active target marked, but you can BA to apply it to any target, otherwise it just is something they can do
Seems a bit crazy with other spells or MC then as you could pick up Hex with shadow touched and do 2d6 damage pretty much all the time....
Not really. You can pick up a level of rogue and add 2d6 pretty much all the time right now, so, under my proposed HM, if a level 6 character (because it isn't a d6 until 5) wants to take 5 levels of Ranger, and somehow has a 13 CHA to grab a level of Warlock to get 2 d6 on their attacks, and lose the ability to use any other concentration spell like Hail of Thorns then go for it
2d6 once per round not per attack which is much different and also takes two levels of rogue to get there vs a single feat....
No MC needed to get Hex just shadow touched.
A v human could start with it with no additional class investment
1 level of Rogue, the d6 from sneak and the d6 from HM, but sure, it isn't on each attack so you get a whole extra ~3 points of damage with 2 attacks, not what I would call game breaking
For the Hex + Hunters it would be 3.5 extra per hit and then at 5th level would be 7 points per turn. If you had a way to get another attack as a BA (say two weapon) you would have 10.5 per turn extra.
I do guess it would take two turns to set up (HM one turn Hex another) and that would not be optimal. Overall it would likely be fine with that in mind.
That seems overly complicated, and keeping HM as concentration is the main problem have with it. I would bet that 6e HM is just going to be something Rangers get, like the Rogue sneak attack, but it triggers every attack, starts as a d4, goes up a dice to a d6 at 5, d8 at 11 and a d10 at 17.
It being a free resource with concentration ( you can always use it but its lower damage) is one way to go. Making it always on with every attack and no concentration is pretty big deal....I assume you would limit it to a certain amount of uses per day?
Nope, the only limit is that you can only have one active target marked, but you can BA to apply it to any target, otherwise it just is something they can do
Seems a bit crazy with other spells or MC then as you could pick up Hex with shadow touched and do 2d6 damage pretty much all the time....
Not really. You can pick up a level of rogue and add 2d6 pretty much all the time right now, so, under my proposed HM, if a level 6 character (because it isn't a d6 until 5) wants to take 5 levels of Ranger, and somehow has a 13 CHA to grab a level of Warlock to get 2 d6 on their attacks, and lose the ability to use any other concentration spell like Hail of Thorns then go for it
2d6 once per round not per attack which is much different and also takes two levels of rogue to get there vs a single feat....
No MC needed to get Hex just shadow touched.
A v human could start with it with no additional class investment
1 level of Rogue, the d6 from sneak and the d6 from HM, but sure, it isn't on each attack so you get a whole extra ~3 points of damage with 2 attacks, not what I would call game breaking
For the Hex + Hunters it would be 3.5 extra per hit and then at 5th level would be 7 points per turn. If you had a way to get another attack as a BA (say two weapon) you would have 10.5 per turn extra.
I do guess it would take two turns to set up (HM one turn Hex another) and that would not be optimal. Overall it would likely be fine with that in mind.
can you guys slow down and explain how the nine hells one or two levels of rogue would add +2d6 to your per-round damage output when sneak attack only adds an additional 2d6 points of damage once you reach 3rd level and no alt features and subclasses are available until 3rd level? Sneak attack can only be used once on each of your turns
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
That seems overly complicated, and keeping HM as concentration is the main problem have with it. I would bet that 6e HM is just going to be something Rangers get, like the Rogue sneak attack, but it triggers every attack, starts as a d4, goes up a dice to a d6 at 5, d8 at 11 and a d10 at 17.
It being a free resource with concentration ( you can always use it but its lower damage) is one way to go. Making it always on with every attack and no concentration is pretty big deal....I assume you would limit it to a certain amount of uses per day?
Nope, the only limit is that you can only have one active target marked, but you can BA to apply it to any target, otherwise it just is something they can do
Seems a bit crazy with other spells or MC then as you could pick up Hex with shadow touched and do 2d6 damage pretty much all the time....
Not really. You can pick up a level of rogue and add 2d6 pretty much all the time right now, so, under my proposed HM, if a level 6 character (because it isn't a d6 until 5) wants to take 5 levels of Ranger, and somehow has a 13 CHA to grab a level of Warlock to get 2 d6 on their attacks, and lose the ability to use any other concentration spell like Hail of Thorns then go for it
2d6 once per round not per attack which is much different and also takes two levels of rogue to get there vs a single feat....
No MC needed to get Hex just shadow touched.
A v human could start with it with no additional class investment
1 level of Rogue, the d6 from sneak and the d6 from HM, but sure, it isn't on each attack so you get a whole extra ~3 points of damage with 2 attacks, not what I would call game breaking
For the Hex + Hunters it would be 3.5 extra per hit and then at 5th level would be 7 points per turn. If you had a way to get another attack as a BA (say two weapon) you would have 10.5 per turn extra.
I do guess it would take two turns to set up (HM one turn Hex another) and that would not be optimal. Overall it would likely be fine with that in mind.
can you guys slow down and explain how the nine hells one or two levels of rogue would add +2d6 to your per-round damage output when sneak attack only adds an additional 2d6 points of damage once you reach 3rd level and no alt features and subclasses are available until 3rd level? Sneak attack can only be used once on each of your turns
That's where I was confused as well.
My setup was as follows (with a concentration free HM)
First round: BA Hunters mark and attack (2 bow attacks that are 1d6 + 1d8+Dex)
Second Round BA Hex and attack action (2 bow attacks are 1d6 hex 1d6 hunter's mark and 1d8+ Dex)
So by that second round you are doing 2d6 extra (1d6 from hunters mark which in this example is concentration-less and 1d6 hex) on each attack.
Wouldn’t any martial (maybe not a raging barbarian) benefit from this feat or multiclass?
Multiclassing is generally a quick and efficient little power spike no matter what combination you go with. It’s what you give up and/or postpone and when that is important.
That seems overly complicated, and keeping HM as concentration is the main problem have with it. I would bet that 6e HM is just going to be something Rangers get, like the Rogue sneak attack, but it triggers every attack, starts as a d4, goes up a dice to a d6 at 5, d8 at 11 and a d10 at 17.
It being a free resource with concentration ( you can always use it but its lower damage) is one way to go. Making it always on with every attack and no concentration is pretty big deal....I assume you would limit it to a certain amount of uses per day?
Nope, the only limit is that you can only have one active target marked, but you can BA to apply it to any target, otherwise it just is something they can do
Seems a bit crazy with other spells or MC then as you could pick up Hex with shadow touched and do 2d6 damage pretty much all the time....
Not really. You can pick up a level of rogue and add 2d6 pretty much all the time right now, so, under my proposed HM, if a level 6 character (because it isn't a d6 until 5) wants to take 5 levels of Ranger, and somehow has a 13 CHA to grab a level of Warlock to get 2 d6 on their attacks, and lose the ability to use any other concentration spell like Hail of Thorns then go for it
2d6 once per round not per attack which is much different and also takes two levels of rogue to get there vs a single feat....
No MC needed to get Hex just shadow touched.
A v human could start with it with no additional class investment
1 level of Rogue, the d6 from sneak and the d6 from HM, but sure, it isn't on each attack so you get a whole extra ~3 points of damage with 2 attacks, not what I would call game breaking
For the Hex + Hunters it would be 3.5 extra per hit and then at 5th level would be 7 points per turn. If you had a way to get another attack as a BA (say two weapon) you would have 10.5 per turn extra.
I do guess it would take two turns to set up (HM one turn Hex another) and that would not be optimal. Overall it would likely be fine with that in mind.
can you guys slow down and explain how the nine hells one or two levels of rogue would add +2d6 to your per-round damage output when sneak attack only adds an additional 2d6 points of damage once you reach 3rd level and no alt features and subclasses are available until 3rd level? Sneak attack can only be used once on each of your turns
That's where I was confused as well.
My setup was as follows (with a concentration free HM)
First round: BA Hunters mark and attack (2 bow attacks that are 1d6 + 1d8+Dex)
Second Round BA Hex and attack action (2 bow attacks are 1d6 hex 1d6 hunter's mark and 1d8+ Dex)
So by that second round you are doing 2d6 extra (1d6 from hunters mark which in this example is concentration-less and 1d6 hex) on each attack.
The conversation is about combining HM with features, I was saying that 1 level of Rogue gets you sneak attack 1d6 and this would stack with HM, hence 2d6.
The idea that making HM a feature that doesn't require concentration is what I was suggesting, the counter was that it would be easy to combine it with options to boost damage.
I then argued that giving someone HM is not gonna break anything even if you combine it with other features.
Wouldn’t any martial (maybe not a raging barbarian) benefit from this feat or multiclass?
Multiclassing is generally a quick and efficient little power spike no matter what combination you go with. It’s what you give up and/or postpone and when that is important.
Yeah, pretty much, most of the ways to combine things would not be impacted at all by making HM just a feature.
Hunter’s mark combined with just two weapon fighting is strong on a single target over two or more rounds. It requires a setup like the other combination you’ve been saying, but it works well.
I must have missed it but where are you getting 2 attacks? Or are you talking about a level 5 in a class to get 2 attacks, cause I thought you were talking levels 1-3.
This is perhaps my only real complaint about the ranger - 1 arrow per attack when I grew up in the game with 2. Now I understand some of the reasoning - according to historical sources an English long bowman was required to be able to hit a man sized target with 12 shots a minute - 1 shot every 5 seconds and so 1 arrow / round. I can accept that for basic proficiency. But I’ve seen a longbowman put 18 shots into a chest sized target at 100m which is 3 sec a shot and so 2 arrows a round. And if all he had to do was send them into a massed charge he could be even faster. Maybe the archery fighting style should include this or use this instead of or as an eater/ or. Classes like the arcane archer should get this automatically. Game balance would not be harmed (imho) if done this way.
This is perhaps my only real complaint about the ranger - 1 arrow per attack when I grew up in the game with 2. Now I understand some of the reasoning - according to historical sources an English long bowman was required to be able to hit a man sized target with 12 shots a minute - 1 shot every 5 seconds and so 1 arrow / round. I can accept that for basic proficiency. But I’ve seen a longbowman put 18 shots into a chest sized target at 100m which is 3 sec a shot and so 2 arrows a round. And if all he had to do was send them into a massed charge he could be even faster. Maybe the archery fighting style should include this or use this instead of or as an eater/ or. Classes like the arcane archer should get this automatically. Game balance would not be harmed (imho) if done this way.
I'm confused; both Arcane Archer and Ranger can fire two shots from a bow each round by 5th level. The Arcane Archer can then go on to fire three per round from 11th, and four (one every 1.5 seconds!) at level 20, so I'm not sure what change you're proposing here?
The archery fighting style is IMO already the single best fighting style for any ranged character (not just archers), as a +2 bonus already means you can have +7 to hit from 1st/2nd level. Even on a mixed ranged and melee character it's still usually the best option to take unless you have a very particular combat style in mind (e.g- plan to use Fog Cloud with Blind Fighting up close).
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
This is perhaps my only real complaint about the ranger - 1 arrow per attack when I grew up in the game with 2. Now I understand some of the reasoning - according to historical sources an English long bowman was required to be able to hit a man sized target with 12 shots a minute - 1 shot every 5 seconds and so 1 arrow / round. I can accept that for basic proficiency. But I’ve seen a longbowman put 18 shots into a chest sized target at 100m which is 3 sec a shot and so 2 arrows a round. And if all he had to do was send them into a massed charge he could be even faster. Maybe the archery fighting style should include this or use this instead of or as an eater/ or. Classes like the arcane archer should get this automatically. Game balance would not be harmed (imho) if done this way.
I'm confused; both Arcane Archer and Ranger can fire two shots from a bow each round by 5th level. The Arcane Archer can then go on to fire three per round from 11th, and four (one every 1.5 seconds!) at level 20, so I'm not sure what change you're proposing here?
The archery fighting style is IMO already the single best fighting style for any ranged character (not just archers), as a +2 bonus already means you can have +7 to hit from 1st level. Even on a mixed ranged and melee character it's still usually the best option to take unless you have a very particular combat style in mind (e.g- plan to use Fog Cloud with Blind Fighting up close).
I’m not talking about after L5 where you get 2 attacks. I’m mostly talking about L2-4. I agree that for a ranged base character you need to either be an archer or a spell caster. My proposal would mean that taking archery would give you either a +2 on a single shot or 2 shots at L2-4, and 4 shots from L5, 6 at L11 and 8 at L20.
Why is this a ranger complaint? Isn’t that a fighting style complaint?
Yeah but when I think archer I think ranger not fighter. I’ll see if I can find the fighting style forum or somewhere else more appropriate.
I get it. I just thought you were specifically talking about the ranger. Do you think it's strange that crossbow users can do what you are suggesting and not bow users? Via the crossbow expert feat I mean.
So today I learned that, according to the DMG, if the DM is running a chase sequence (i.e., trying to get the party to lose track of an NPC,) the NPC will get disadvantage on their stealth rolls just for a Ranger being with the party. If there is no Ranger in the party, the same effect can be secured by anyone with proficiency in survival. But still, it's interesting that a Ranger just existing (they themselves don't even need Survival) automatically imposes disadvantage on people trying to get away from them.
So today I learned that, according to the DMG, if the DM is running a chase sequence (i.e., trying to get the party to lose track of an NPC,) the NPC will get disadvantage on their stealth rolls just for a Ranger being with the party. If there is no Ranger in the party, the same effect can be secured by anyone with proficiency in survival. But still, it's interesting that a Ranger just existing (they themselves don't even need Survival) automatically imposes disadvantage on people trying to get away from them.
I can't properly copy things from my trash phone, but look up the "chase" section in the DMG and refer to the table provided. Specifically, the last point. And if you can link it here where I can't, that would also be great.
So today I learned that, according to the DMG, if the DM is running a chase sequence (i.e., trying to get the party to lose track of an NPC,) the NPC will get disadvantage on their stealth rolls just for a Ranger being with the party. If there is no Ranger in the party, the same effect can be secured by anyone with proficiency in survival. But still, it's interesting that a Ranger just existing (they themselves don't even need Survival) automatically imposes disadvantage on people trying to get away from them.
What.
Explain, please.
always thought it was weird that section assumed there were rangers without proficiency in survival.
Such an strange assumption for them to make
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I can't properly copy things from my trash phone, but look up the "chase" section in the DMG and refer to the table provided. Specifically, the last point. And if you can link it here where I can't, that would also be great.
Ending a Chase
A chase ends when one side or the other stops, when the quarry escapes, or when the pursuers are close enough to their quarry to catch it.
If neither side gives up the chase, the quarry makes a Dexterity (Stealth) check at the end of each round, after every participant in the chase has taken its turn. The result is compared to the passive Wisdom (Perception) scores of the pursuers. If the quarry consists of multiple creatures, they all make the check.
If the quarry is never out of the lead pursuer’s sight, the check fails automatically. Otherwise, if the result of the quarry’s check is greater than the highest passive score, that quarry escapes. If not, the chase continues for another round.
The quarry gains advantage or disadvantage on its check based on prevailing circumstances, as shown in the Escape Factors table. If one or more factors give the quarry both advantage and disadvantage on its check, the quarry has neither, as usual.
Escape Factors
Factor
Check Has …
Quarry has many things to hide behind
Advantage
Quarry is in a very crowded or noisy area
Advantage
Quarry has few things to hide behind
Disadvantage
Quarry is in an uncrowded or quiet area
Disadvantage
The lead pursuer is a ranger or has proficiency in Survival
Disadvantage
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1 level of Rogue, the d6 from sneak and the d6 from HM, but sure, it isn't on each attack so you get a whole extra ~3 points of damage with 2 attacks, not what I would call game breaking
For the Hex + Hunters it would be 3.5 extra per hit and then at 5th level would be 7 points per turn. If you had a way to get another attack as a BA (say two weapon) you would have 10.5 per turn extra.
I do guess it would take two turns to set up (HM one turn Hex another) and that would not be optimal. Overall it would likely be fine with that in mind.
can you guys slow down and explain how the nine hells one or two levels of rogue would add +2d6 to your per-round damage output when sneak attack only adds an additional 2d6 points of damage once you reach 3rd level and no alt features and subclasses are available until 3rd level? Sneak attack can only be used once on each of your turns
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
That's where I was confused as well.
My setup was as follows (with a concentration free HM)
First round: BA Hunters mark and attack (2 bow attacks that are 1d6 + 1d8+Dex)
Second Round BA Hex and attack action (2 bow attacks are 1d6 hex 1d6 hunter's mark and 1d8+ Dex)
So by that second round you are doing 2d6 extra (1d6 from hunters mark which in this example is concentration-less and 1d6 hex) on each attack.
Wouldn’t any martial (maybe not a raging barbarian) benefit from this feat or multiclass?
Multiclassing is generally a quick and efficient little power spike no matter what combination you go with. It’s what you give up and/or postpone and when that is important.
The conversation is about combining HM with features, I was saying that 1 level of Rogue gets you sneak attack 1d6 and this would stack with HM, hence 2d6.
The idea that making HM a feature that doesn't require concentration is what I was suggesting, the counter was that it would be easy to combine it with options to boost damage.
I then argued that giving someone HM is not gonna break anything even if you combine it with other features.
Yeah, pretty much, most of the ways to combine things would not be impacted at all by making HM just a feature.
Hunter’s mark combined with just two weapon fighting is strong on a single target over two or more rounds. It requires a setup like the other combination you’ve been saying, but it works well.
I must have missed it but where are you getting 2 attacks? Or are you talking about a level 5 in a class to get 2 attacks, cause I thought you were talking levels 1-3.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
This is perhaps my only real complaint about the ranger - 1 arrow per attack when I grew up in the game with 2. Now I understand some of the reasoning - according to historical sources an English long bowman was required to be able to hit a man sized target with 12 shots a minute - 1 shot every 5 seconds and so 1 arrow / round. I can accept that for basic proficiency. But I’ve seen a longbowman put 18 shots into a chest sized target at 100m which is 3 sec a shot and so 2 arrows a round. And if all he had to do was send them into a massed charge he could be even faster. Maybe the archery fighting style should include this or use this instead of or as an eater/ or. Classes like the arcane archer should get this automatically. Game balance would not be harmed (imho) if done this way.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Why is this a ranger complaint? Isn’t that a fighting style complaint?
I'm confused; both Arcane Archer and Ranger can fire two shots from a bow each round by 5th level. The Arcane Archer can then go on to fire three per round from 11th, and four (one every 1.5 seconds!) at level 20, so I'm not sure what change you're proposing here?
The archery fighting style is IMO already the single best fighting style for any ranged character (not just archers), as a +2 bonus already means you can have +7 to hit from 1st/2nd level. Even on a mixed ranged and melee character it's still usually the best option to take unless you have a very particular combat style in mind (e.g- plan to use Fog Cloud with Blind Fighting up close).
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Yeah but when I think archer I think ranger not fighter. I’ll see if I can find the fighting style forum or somewhere else more appropriate.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I’m not talking about after L5 where you get 2 attacks. I’m mostly talking about L2-4. I agree that for a ranged base character you need to either be an archer or a spell caster. My proposal would mean that taking archery would give you either a +2 on a single shot or 2 shots at L2-4, and 4 shots from L5, 6 at L11 and 8 at L20.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I get it. I just thought you were specifically talking about the ranger.
Do you think it's strange that crossbow users can do what you are suggesting and not bow users? Via the crossbow expert feat I mean.
So today I learned that, according to the DMG, if the DM is running a chase sequence (i.e., trying to get the party to lose track of an NPC,) the NPC will get disadvantage on their stealth rolls just for a Ranger being with the party. If there is no Ranger in the party, the same effect can be secured by anyone with proficiency in survival. But still, it's interesting that a Ranger just existing (they themselves don't even need Survival) automatically imposes disadvantage on people trying to get away from them.
What.
Explain, please.
I can't properly copy things from my trash phone, but look up the "chase" section in the DMG and refer to the table provided. Specifically, the last point. And if you can link it here where I can't, that would also be great.
always thought it was weird that section assumed there were rangers without proficiency in survival.
Such an strange assumption for them to make
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Ending a Chase
A chase ends when one side or the other stops, when the quarry escapes, or when the pursuers are close enough to their quarry to catch it.
If neither side gives up the chase, the quarry makes a Dexterity (Stealth) check at the end of each round, after every participant in the chase has taken its turn. The result is compared to the passive Wisdom (Perception) scores of the pursuers. If the quarry consists of multiple creatures, they all make the check.
If the quarry is never out of the lead pursuer’s sight, the check fails automatically. Otherwise, if the result of the quarry’s check is greater than the highest passive score, that quarry escapes. If not, the chase continues for another round.
The quarry gains advantage or disadvantage on its check based on prevailing circumstances, as shown in the Escape Factors table. If one or more factors give the quarry both advantage and disadvantage on its check, the quarry has neither, as usual.
Escape Factors