I'll probably like it fine since it's basically just Tasha's Ranger revised, but I can't help but feel they didn't go as far with Ranger as they did in other classes.
I also worry that you don't get the tools you need to feel very Rangery until at a somewhat high level. Only getting one Expertise instead of two and replacing it with languages means you have to choose between being good at tracking, stealth, or perception, three things I consider vital to the Ranger experience. I do like that we also got some languages, but I feel like the point in Expertise is a big loss.
I'm most worried about STRanger, though. It's the style of ranger I play the most and it seems a lot of little changes to the Ranger class have made it more MAD rather than giving it tools to decrease its MADness to promote build versatility.
I also would've liked more things like Roving. I think a lot of people make a mistake when they consider overland travel to be the core of the Exploration Pillar. To me, being able to explore an ancient ruin or scout out an enemy camp is the true Exploration Pillar, and stuff like Climb Speed and expertise in stealth are vital to that pillar. Rangers should be competitive with Rogues in the scouting and information-gathering roles, they should just go about it differently. Rangers by tracking and stalking, and Rogues by way of picking locks and avoiding traps.
A common suggestion I saw was to let rangers cast Hunter's Mark on tracks to get Advantage on checks to track said enemy to their lair, as an example that I really liked.
the subclasses basically have the same difference in power as in the 2014 including power creep, which is bad. they ruined hunter, which is bad. I prefer old beastmaster, so new one is in my opinion bad, and it is badly integrated in the new phb. they nerfed gloomstalker with no good or balancing effect, which is bad.the features were tashas variants, but more extreme, and again I prefer 2014 over tashas, so in my opinion bad. the class is spell-focused, which is bad. overall, I don’t need to play it, I don’t want to, and I strongly advise everyone not to play it. this is the ranger forum, so most of us here are good enough at the game to play phb 2014 and know how to use it’s strength. if I played at a phb 2024 table, I probably would ask to play with 2014 ranger, I don’t like 2024ranger, and I don’t 2024 at all. it could be I missed some differences between ua and the newest write-up
A good class makes my brain go through all the different types of characters/builds I could make with the options presented. The ranger, sadly, is very weak in this aspect. I would like to have seen more choices added to the hunter, instead they got fewer. Obviously the reliance on hunters mark for so many class and subclass features is the big miss here, I especially think it makes the beast master a very frustrating choice.
I imagine someone would pick the beast master because they would like to use their pet as much as possible, now every combat will be a constant "Awh man, my hunters mark target died, guess my beast wont attack this round" loop, or you can choose to not use 5 of your features at high levels.
If the beast Master works the same as it did in Tasha's, then you don't have to give up your beast's turn for Hunter's Mark. You can instead give up one of your attacks to command the pet and free up your bonus action. Why do people always forget this?
You literally have the option between your two attacks + the beast's attacks and no BA, or one attack + the beast's attacks + your BA.
I'll probably like it fine since it's basically just Tasha's Ranger revised, but I can't help but feel they didn't go as far with Ranger as they did in other classes.
I also worry that you don't get the tools you need to feel very Rangery until at a somewhat high level. Only getting one Expertise instead of two and replacing it with languages means you have to choose between being good at tracking, stealth, or perception, three things I consider vital to the Ranger experience. I do like that we also got some languages, but I feel like the point in Expertise is a big loss.
I'm most worried about STRanger, though. It's the style of ranger I play the most and it seems a lot of little changes to the Ranger class have made it more MAD rather than giving it tools to decrease its MADness to promote build versatility.
I also would've liked more things like Roving. I think a lot of people make a mistake when they consider overland travel to be the core of the Exploration Pillar. To me, being able to explore an ancient ruin or scout out an enemy camp is the true Exploration Pillar, and stuff like Climb Speed and expertise in stealth are vital to that pillar. Rangers should be competitive with Rogues in the scouting and information-gathering roles, they should just go about it differently. Rangers by tracking and stalking, and Rogues by way of picking locks and avoiding traps.
A common suggestion I saw was to let rangers cast Hunter's Mark on tracks to get Advantage on checks to track said enemy to their lair, as an example that I really liked.
New Rangers get three expertises; not one. You get the other two at level 9.
Rangers are already competitive with Rogues at stealth and Intel-gathering. And none of that has changed. They still get PwT, they can still Speak with Animals and Beast Sense, etc. And, as mentioned above, they now get three expertises. So you can have expertise in stealth, survival, and perception. Being prepared ritual casters means they can now take more niche spells for Intel-gathering than they could before. And PwT means they're just as good at stealth as a Rogue with reliable talent (technically slightly more.) None of that has changed.
Hunter's Mark already gives you advantage on tracking.
Like, I get it. People hate the 2024 Ranger. And it does have its problems. But let's focus on what it actually gets wrong instead of inventing nonexistent problems to justify our confirmation bias, yeah?
I'll probably like it fine since it's basically just Tasha's Ranger revised, but I can't help but feel they didn't go as far with Ranger as they did in other classes.
I also worry that you don't get the tools you need to feel very Rangery until at a somewhat high level. Only getting one Expertise instead of two and replacing it with languages means you have to choose between being good at tracking, stealth, or perception, three things I consider vital to the Ranger experience. I do like that we also got some languages, but I feel like the point in Expertise is a big loss.
I'm most worried about STRanger, though. It's the style of ranger I play the most and it seems a lot of little changes to the Ranger class have made it more MAD rather than giving it tools to decrease its MADness to promote build versatility.
I also would've liked more things like Roving. I think a lot of people make a mistake when they consider overland travel to be the core of the Exploration Pillar. To me, being able to explore an ancient ruin or scout out an enemy camp is the true Exploration Pillar, and stuff like Climb Speed and expertise in stealth are vital to that pillar. Rangers should be competitive with Rogues in the scouting and information-gathering roles, they should just go about it differently. Rangers by tracking and stalking, and Rogues by way of picking locks and avoiding traps.
A common suggestion I saw was to let rangers cast Hunter's Mark on tracks to get Advantage on checks to track said enemy to their lair, as an example that I really liked.
New Rangers get three expertises; not one. You get the other two at level 9.
Rangers are already competitive with Rogues at stealth and Intel-gathering. And none of that has changed. They still get PwT, they can still Speak with Animals and Beast Sense, etc. And, as mentioned above, they now get three expertises. So you can have expertise in stealth, survival, and perception. Being prepared ritual casters means they can now take more niche spells for Intel-gathering than they could before. And PwT means they're just as good at stealth as a Rogue with reliable talent (technically slightly more.) None of that has changed.
Hunter's Mark already gives you advantage on tracking.
Like, I get it. People hate the 2024 Ranger. And it does have its problems. But let's focus on what it actually gets wrong instead of inventing nonexistent problems to justify our confirmation bias, yeah?
I also think the loss of such unique builds is actually a real detriment. Str-ranger builds could be really well developed and give such rangers a unique spin on the class. a str-rangers could really mix up the stat distribution and have fun with it. (low wisdom, low dex or low con builds)
Bragging about one expertise early and two more latter isn't really a big deal. (2024) With Favored terrain at many tables I could get a functional 2-5(I've gotten 9 with at feat) expertise and/or possible advantage with favored enemy. Thankfully it was sometimes limited by the situation because it could be ridiculous otherwise. (2014)
using huntersmark to actually gain advantage on tracking is quite rare because it requires sight and being with-in 90ft. allowing it to not require sight of the creature would be really helpful. I would prefer it to allow you to target using primeval awareness but on the tracks rather than the creature would actually allow huntersmark to become regularly useful for tracking.
Also I am not convinced there isn't new PWT nerf and even if it hasn't there's still concentration on it and beast sense. meaning HM cant track while using it or any other spell.
So with only one expertise(at early levels) and no other real tools to track a ranger "playing to type" will be forced with their choice. The ranger is an interacting web of abilities that need to not conflict in order to function.
TLDR: Basically I think SaurianDruid is trying to focus on the issues.
Some notes on pass without trace. 1. Since surprise won't give you a whole round of killing enemies anymore the biggest offensive boon from PWT is mostly gone. 2. Crawford in one of his recent videos discussed PWT in regard to the concept that it doesn't make you invisible. You can't PWT through an open area in front of a guard. It still uses stealth. It is possible that the wording will remind the DM that PWT does not overcome open line of sight. I would bet that the "nerf" here will come in the stealth section and not in the spell, and by nerf it will simply work the way it has always meant to.
Gonna keep this short because others have already said most of it:
RANGERS SHOULD NOT BE DEFINED BY THE SPELL HUNTER'S MARK.
Forcing player's to use their concentration slot in order to benefit from the abilities you are supposed to enjoy naturally is wrong. I play the tank in my party as a ranger, and simply enjoy a high AC with items and spells. To forcibly deny rangers from taking advantage of other combat related concentration spells is as close to saying "You are not playing your ranger how we want you to play your ranger" as you can get.
Hunter's Mark = Divine Smite = Rage = Sneak Attack = Extra/Extra Attack = Flurry of blows
These are the damage mechanics each of the martial classes use to scale their damage through their career. Some are better at it than others. Some have enhancements later. None of these features fully define their class and that includes Hunter's Mark.
It is my opinion that 2024 makes you less reliant on HM by making it more and more disposable. You have PB free uses a day. That means you can cast it for one enemy and then switch to something else with minimal loss. If you just need damage then cast HM. If you need control cast entangle or something else. They made you a semi prepared caster so you can even actually use the Ranger's wonderful spell list. You can now actually prep speak with animals without being locked into it for an entire level, and since HM is prepped for free it doesn't even count against that number. You no longer pay a HM penalty in spells known and slots used.
HM is just a very good way to mechanically interpret the Ranger's hunting character style. They made it better and easier to use in 2024 while making it also easier to use and cast other things.
I would agree with what you are saying, except for the fact that you NEED to use HM in order to benefit from many of the core features a number of key levels give you. If the free uses of HM just came with other abilities that didn't require you to sacrifice your concentration slot in order to use them, then I'd say all the extra HM-themed class features would be great! But unlike "Divine Smite = Rage = Sneak Attack = Extra/Extra Attack = Flurry of blows", HM demands that you occupy your concentration slot. The only other ability that comes close to this type of sacrifice is the barbarian Rage, since you cant cast any spells at all. Every other class' ability isn't taking up a core game mechanic slot.
New Rangers get three expertises; not one. You get the other two at level 9.
Rangers are already competitive with Rogues at stealth and Intel-gathering. And none of that has changed. They still get PwT, they can still Speak with Animals and Beast Sense, etc. And, as mentioned above, they now get three expertises. So you can have expertise in stealth, survival, and perception. Being prepared ritual casters means they can now take more niche spells for Intel-gathering than they could before. And PwT means they're just as good at stealth as a Rogue with reliable talent (technically slightly more.) None of that has changed.
Hunter's Mark already gives you advantage on tracking.
Like, I get it. People hate the 2024 Ranger. And it does have its problems. But let's focus on what it actually gets wrong instead of inventing nonexistent problems to justify our confirmation bias, yeah?
Maybe I wasn't very clear, but my complaint isn't about the total number of Expertise we get (though I do think it's silly we only get three when the full caster Bard's last playtest still got four. I guess we'll see if they still do when the Bard video comes out). My complaint was about when we get that expertise.
I'd rather get my expertise points early. I don't think two expertise + two languages would be a particularly overpowered feature. Then at 9th level we could get another Expertise and some other benefit. Maybe "Hunter's Mark can't be broken" from 13th level or "Hunter's Mark gives Advantage" from 17th. I want to feel like I am a skilled wilderness survivalist the entire campaign, not just at the tail end of tier 2.
And the thing with Hunter's Mark's tracking is you need to target a creature with it first. THEN you can track them, assuming it ran away and assuming it never gets beyond 90 ft of you. My proposal was to let the ranger cast it on tracks they've found (and ideally without a range restriction), allowing them to get Advantage on future Survival and Perception checks as they try to track the creature back to its lair. It's a small feature power-wise but it makes the feature more flexible as a tracking tool and lets rangers use their now core, iconic spell in a way no other class can.
I don't think I'm inventing problems at all. Classes must have what they need for their core flavor to shine through by level 3, and only a single Expertise isn't enough to feel like a master woodsman.
I also think the loss of such unique builds is actually a real detriment. Str-ranger builds could be really well developed and give such rangers a unique spin on the class. a str-rangers could really mix up the stat distribution and have fun with it. (low wisdom, low dex or low con builds)
It's also just a major part of the class fantasy in most literature. Aragorn, Geralt of Rivia, Jon Snow, Minsc, etc. They all use longswords. A class feature that allows the Ranger to actually use its huge list of martial weapons it is proficient with without significantly impacting the class' performance would go a long way.
I'm happy that Hunter's Mark became core to the Ranger, but I'm not happy that it's a concentration spell. Like the 2014 Smite, having it be a class ability just works better to presenting it as the class's ability while reminding the players they have it. Making it a spell hides it from you, not to mention having concentration. The old smite spells using concentration limited the paladin from using their other buffs if they wanted them.
Here's the house rules I'm currently considering for Rangers in my games:
Level 1: Spellcasting: Allow the Ranger to prepare all their spells each day. Allow the Ranger to use their weapon as a primal focus (carve runes and attach totems to it, etc).
(This brings them to how they were in 3rd edition, and helps them be better prepared for upcoming situations. Strongly considering adding a cantrip progression to Ranger and Paladin as well for kicks.)
Level 1: Favored Enemy: One free cast of Hunter's Mark each day (or maybe free castings up to your Wisdom modifier to make Wisdom more important early on; I don't like having it be proficiency bonus or just scaling with level because I think Wisdom should be important). Also, you can cast hunter's Mark on a creature for no action when you take the attack action to attack that creature.
(See the Hunter's Mark spell below for changes, but switched to 1/round damage, scaling damage with higher level spell slots, but removed concentration and the ability to switch targets. These changes are to make it more comparable to level dipping Rogue for 1/round damage, and also so the Hunter's Mark damage boost can be compared to Smite type spells. By removing concentration from the spell rather than as a class ability, and by having it be 1/round damage, dipping concerns are gone. Letting rangers cast it for free when they attack helps with action economy issues, like Beast Master and Vanish).
Level 1: Weapon Mastery: Unchanged.
(I like rangers only getting 2 masteries. Maybe getting 2 masteries but learning more cantrips can be their trade vs Fighters.)
Level 2: Deft Explorer: +2 languages, and gain expertise 1 skill off the Ranger’s list that you are proficient with. Also, gain proficiency in Survival; if you were already proficient, you gain expertise in Survival instead.
(Fixed expertise in Survival helps make this weaker than just 2 expertises, to both differentiate it from rogue expertise, to balance the +2 languages, and to ensure that the ranger is always good at survival.)
Level 2: Fighting Style: Unchanged. (But if I add base cantrips, I'll remove Druidic Warrior.)
Level 3 (and 7, 11, and 15): Ranger Subclasses: all ranger subclasses gain additional spells known, 1 per spell level, so there's parity between Hunter and Beast Master and the other subclasses. There's plenty of spells that feel too fitting for a Beast Master to not have.
Hunter 3. Snare 5. See Invisibility 9. Haste 13. Improved Invisibility 17. Hold Monster
Level 3: Primeval Awareness: Whenever you take a long rest, you gain spells known based on the terrain you're in, 1 per spell level. These are largely exploration and survival spells.
(I'm bringing this ability back but changing it. This allows the Ranger to match the Paladin’s subclass spells known, 2 per level, by mixing terrain spells with their subclass spells. It also helps the Ranger to feel always prepared for the environment they are in, which adds to the fantasy of the Ranger. It also has synergy with the Land Druid.)
Temperate
Arid
Polar
Temperate
Tropical
Underdark
Level 4 (8, 12, and 16): Feat: Unchanged.
Level 5: Extra Attack: Unchanged.
Level 6: Roving: Unchanged. (I actually like this as a replacement for Land's Stride, as it feels less magical and differentiates a Ranger's way of getting around the woods vs a Druid’s.)
Level 6: Relentless Hunter: Moved to 6th level, but changed. You may cast Hunter's Mark upon a target with unlimited range as long as you make an attack against it or you are examining its tracks or one of its possessions. While traveling, you can track and still perform another task.
(Since I effectively removed the need for this ability, I changed it to modify the Hunter's Mark spell in ways that benefit exploration, making the signature spell useful in more situations. I could also put “remove concentration from hunters mark” here if everyone thinks concentration free doesn't work for the base spell.)
Level 9: Ranging Expertise: You gain expertise in 2 additional Ranger skills. Additionally, you can change your Primeval Awareness terrain during a short rest.
(A small mostly exploration focused ability to justify changing the name of this ability, and to add to the Ranger's exploration theme.)
Level 13: Precise Hunter: Moved to 13th level. You gain advantage on attacks against Hunter's Mark targets, and Hunter's Mark targets suffer disadvantage to saving throws made against your attacks and abilities.
(I moved this to a lower level and buffed it so rangers who like spells have a bonus too.)
Level 14: Nature's Veil: Unchanged.
(Even though I really don't like this ability, as rangers aren't all automatically stealthy. This ability could have just been a spell, but I do like how it can still be useful to non-stealthy Rangers. I don't know what I'd replace it with, and I do like that it harkens back to 3E and 5E camouflage and hide in plain sight.)
Level 17: One with Nature: You gain resistance to poison damage and advantage to saves vs poison damage or the poisoned condition. You gain an additional resistance determined by your Primeval Awareness (fire for arid, cold for Arctic, and such like the land druid), and you have advantage on saves vs environmental or planar effects.
(I really wanted to finish off the deft explorer > ranging expertise exploration chain of abilities, but I didn't want anything offensive.)
Level 18: Feral Senses: Unchanged.
(Blindsense was such an easy fix for this, I'm glad they went with it.)
Level 19: Epic Boon: Unchanged.
(I really like that they managed to incorporate this. It helps introduce the idea of epic and entice going further.)
Level 20: Foe Slayer: Add your Wisdom Modifier to damage against targets of your Hunter's Mark.
(Reverting to something like the 2014 version since my Hunter's Mark damage already scales. Barbarians get +2 to hit and damage with all attacks and +2 hp per level. Fighters get an extra attack. I don't think up to +5 damage will be a problem. But I'm the least married to this. I might also like something like a save or “die” where you can expend your Hunter's Mark mark on a target to deal + a lot of damage. Or something that feels like taking controlled aim and delivering a death shot… but that could just be a 5th level spell.)
Here's my pitch for a patched Hunter's Mark (and Hex, because they should follow the same flow to me).
Hunter's Mark 1st-level divination Casting Time: 1 bonus action Range: 90 feet Components: V Duration: 1 hour You choose a creature you can see within range and mystically mark it as your quarry. Until the spell ends, the first time you hit the target with a weapon attack each round, you deal an extra 1d6 force damage. You also have advantage on any Wisdom (Perception) or Wisdom (Survival) check you make to find it.
If you cast this spell upon a target currently affected by your previous casting of this spell, the first casting is replaced by the second.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 3rd or 4th level, the spell's duration increases to 8 hours and the damage increases to +2d6. When you use a spell slot of 5th level or higher, the spell's duration increases to 24 hours and the damage increases to +3d6.
Hex 1st-level enchantment Casting Time: 1 bonus action Range: 90 feet Components: V, S, M (the petrified eye of a newt) Duration: 1 hour You place a curse on a creature that you can see within range. Until the spell ends, the first time you hit it with an attack each round, you deal an extra 1d6 necrotic damage to the target. Also, choose one ability when you cast the spell. The target has disadvantage on ability checks made with the chosen ability.
If you cast this spell upon a target currently affected by your previous casting of this spell, the first casting is replaced by the second. Also, a remove curse cast on the target ends this spell early.
At Higher Levels.When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 3rd or 4th level, the spell's duration increases to 8 hours and the damage increases to +2d6. When you use a spell slot of 5th or 6th level, the spell's duration increases to 24 hours and the damage increases to +3d6. When you use a spell slot of 7th or 8th level, the spell's duration increases to 1 year and the damage increases to +4d6. When you use a 9th level spell slot, the duration becomes permanent and the damage increases to +5d6.
(I've changed Hunter's Mark and Hex to the playtest scaling 1/round damage, but removed concentration. I believe that will balance these spells against other spell options, like Smites. Smite deals +9 average damage with a first level slot. One would have to hit 3 times to do more than that damage. 3rd level slots would be 18 damage with 3 hits to beat, and 5th level would be 27 damage with 3 hits to beat. The multiple chances of hitting once in a round of high level Eldritch Blast or ranger multiple attacks drives up the dage percentage closer to 100%, keeping it balanced with smite as well).
New Rangers get three expertises; not one. You get the other two at level 9.
Rangers are already competitive with Rogues at stealth and Intel-gathering. And none of that has changed. They still get PwT, they can still Speak with Animals and Beast Sense, etc. And, as mentioned above, they now get three expertises. So you can have expertise in stealth, survival, and perception. Being prepared ritual casters means they can now take more niche spells for Intel-gathering than they could before. And PwT means they're just as good at stealth as a Rogue with reliable talent (technically slightly more.) None of that has changed.
Hunter's Mark already gives you advantage on tracking.
Like, I get it. People hate the 2024 Ranger. And it does have its problems. But let's focus on what it actually gets wrong instead of inventing nonexistent problems to justify our confirmation bias, yeah?
Maybe I wasn't very clear, but my complaint isn't about the total number of Expertise we get (though I do think it's silly we only get three when the full caster Bard's last playtest still got four. I guess we'll see if they still do when the Bard video comes out). My complaint was about when we get that expertise.
I'd rather get my expertise points early. I don't think two expertise + two languages would be a particularly overpowered feature. Then at 9th level we could get another Expertise and some other benefit. Maybe "Hunter's Mark can't be broken" from 13th level or "Hunter's Mark gives Advantage" from 17th. I want to feel like I am a skilled wilderness survivalist the entire campaign, not just at the tail end of tier 2.
And the thing with Hunter's Mark's tracking is you need to target a creature with it first. THEN you can track them, assuming it ran away and assuming it never gets beyond 90 ft of you. My proposal was to let the ranger cast it on tracks they've found (and ideally without a range restriction), allowing them to get Advantage on future Survival and Perception checks as they try to track the creature back to its lair. It's a small feature power-wise but it makes the feature more flexible as a tracking tool and lets rangers use their now core, iconic spell in a way no other class can.
I don't think I'm inventing problems at all. Classes must have what they need for their core flavor to shine through by level 3, and only a single Expertise isn't enough to feel like a master woodsman.
I also think the loss of such unique builds is actually a real detriment. Str-ranger builds could be really well developed and give such rangers a unique spin on the class. a str-rangers could really mix up the stat distribution and have fun with it. (low wisdom, low dex or low con builds)
It's also just a major part of the class fantasy in most literature. Aragorn, Geralt of Rivia, Jon Snow, Minsc, etc. They all use longswords. A class feature that allows the Ranger to actually use its huge list of martial weapons it is proficient with without significantly impacting the class' performance would go a long way.
STR Rangers can get away with only a 14 Dex and use the stealth penalty heavier medium armors, giving them better AC than Dex Rangers earlier (though they end up being the same, unless they changed the armor table on 2024).
STR 16, Dex 14, Con 12, Wis 14 is not a difficult spread to start with.
STR Rangers can get away with only a 14 Dex and use the stealth penalty heavier medium armors, giving them better AC than Dex Rangers earlier (though they end up being the same, unless they changed the armor table on 2024).
STR 16, Dex 14, Con 12, Wis 14 is not a difficult spread to start with.
That spread works alright, but the concern is... What's the point?
Dual Wielding with Hunter's Mark has a higher DPR by a decent amount as far as the damage tables I've seen show. For lower damage you're sacrificing CON so you have less HP and lower WIS so various ranger features (like your animal companion's AC and damage for Beastmaster or Tireless' temp HP) are less effective, and the ability to stealth.
The gap between STRanger and other ranger builds seems so much bigger than before that it is actively choosing to be a worse ranger with no upside.
STR Rangers can get away with only a 14 Dex and use the stealth penalty heavier medium armors, giving them better AC than Dex Rangers earlier (though they end up being the same, unless they changed the armor table on 2024).
STR 16, Dex 14, Con 12, Wis 14 is not a difficult spread to start with.
That spread works alright, but the concern is... What's the point?
Dual Wielding with Hunter's Mark has a higher DPR by a decent amount as far as the damage tables I've seen show. For lower damage you're sacrificing CON so you have less HP and lower WIS so various ranger features (like your animal companion's AC and damage for Beastmaster or Tireless' temp HP) are less effective, and the ability to stealth.
The gap between STRanger and other ranger builds seems so much bigger than before that it is actively choosing to be a worse ranger with no upside.
I would have dropped wisdom. Building with the 2014 phb beastmaster not being tied to wisdom and wolves often having a pp of 21 dumping wisdom can be a fun counter build and thematic. The benefits of high strength are different weapons and armor and huge carry weight. Often extra equipment like pulleys or crowbars can solve adventure problems before they start.
There are so many subtle factors to ranger builds that is why what one person considers a nessecity others view it as trash.
IMO. That subtle nature is also why so many people don't like the ranger design. It often isn't obvious about its unique power build options.
I love the buff in spellcasting, expanded fighting style options, increased movement, weapon masteries, and expertise in 3 skills! So much customization versatility right there.
You can have expertise in grappling and throw enemies for fall damage with your climb speed. Or take them underwater and destroy them.
Hot take; I think that 2024 Ranger is better than 2024 Paladin with the Smite nerf.
I love the buff in spellcasting, expanded fighting style options, increased movement, weapon masteries, and expertise in 3 skills! So much customization versatility right there.
You can have expertise in grappling and throw enemies for fall damage with your climb speed. Or take them underwater and destroy them.
Hot take; I think that 2024 Ranger is better than 2024 Paladin with the Smite nerf.
So far as I know the new edition is committing to the beta rules where grappling no longer uses Athletics checks, meaning you can't have expertise in grappling.
I'm not convinced you know how Climb and Swim speeds work, although to be fair, I definitely don't know how they're going to work in the new edition either. In the current edition all they do is make you faster at climbing and swimming - neither one makes you any better at any necessary checks to climb or swim while one of your hands is busy grappling, and good luck convincing your DM you're all that and a bag of chips while trying to do those famously two-handed tasks one-handed.
As someone who enjoys rangers, I feel insulted by it, They took any thing that would allow us to make unique characters and Forced hunter's mark upon everyone that plays rangers, they are allowing NO UNIQUE builds with ranger, it is just you want to be ranger? well you MUST use Hunter's mark and nothing else.
Until we see if Hunter's Mark is per hit or per turn I will hold my judgment.
However, if they are to lean so hard into HM I kind of wish that it wasn't a spell and just a normal class feature that can't be countered. You could still use spell slots to cast it... but why not have it as a feature that you can use a certain amount of times linked to your Wisdom.
Not only that but if it's now the core class feature... why not have each subclass interact with it? It seems a couple of them already do but it would be much more flavorful if it evolved as you leveled up. Relentless Hunter just seems to have it so that concentration won't be broken from damage, so throw in a subclass effect to make this level a little more interesting.
Gloom Stalker: Stalker's Mark: During the first round of combat you gain an extra 10 movement towards your marked enemy and can make an extra attack against them this round.
Fey Wanderer: Charming Mark: A marked creature succumbs to a fey-like brain fog and rolls at disadvantage against being charmed.
Hunter: Predator's Mark: You now know the marked creature's hit points and ONE of their stat modifiers (of your choice).
Beast Master: Savage Mark: Your animal companion can make one attack against a marked creature when you attack it, without using a bonus action.
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I'll probably like it fine since it's basically just Tasha's Ranger revised, but I can't help but feel they didn't go as far with Ranger as they did in other classes.
I also worry that you don't get the tools you need to feel very Rangery until at a somewhat high level. Only getting one Expertise instead of two and replacing it with languages means you have to choose between being good at tracking, stealth, or perception, three things I consider vital to the Ranger experience. I do like that we also got some languages, but I feel like the point in Expertise is a big loss.
I'm most worried about STRanger, though. It's the style of ranger I play the most and it seems a lot of little changes to the Ranger class have made it more MAD rather than giving it tools to decrease its MADness to promote build versatility.
I also would've liked more things like Roving. I think a lot of people make a mistake when they consider overland travel to be the core of the Exploration Pillar. To me, being able to explore an ancient ruin or scout out an enemy camp is the true Exploration Pillar, and stuff like Climb Speed and expertise in stealth are vital to that pillar. Rangers should be competitive with Rogues in the scouting and information-gathering roles, they should just go about it differently. Rangers by tracking and stalking, and Rogues by way of picking locks and avoiding traps.
A common suggestion I saw was to let rangers cast Hunter's Mark on tracks to get Advantage on checks to track said enemy to their lair, as an example that I really liked.
the subclasses basically have the same difference in power as in the 2014 including power creep, which is bad. they ruined hunter, which is bad. I prefer old beastmaster, so new one is in my opinion bad, and it is badly integrated in the new phb. they nerfed gloomstalker with no good or balancing effect, which is bad.the features were tashas variants, but more extreme, and again I prefer 2014 over tashas, so in my opinion bad. the class is spell-focused, which is bad. overall, I don’t need to play it, I don’t want to, and I strongly advise everyone not to play it. this is the ranger forum, so most of us here are good enough at the game to play phb 2014 and know how to use it’s strength. if I played at a phb 2024 table, I probably would ask to play with 2014 ranger, I don’t like 2024ranger, and I don’t 2024 at all. it could be I missed some differences between ua and the newest write-up
A good class makes my brain go through all the different types of characters/builds I could make with the options presented. The ranger, sadly, is very weak in this aspect. I would like to have seen more choices added to the hunter, instead they got fewer. Obviously the reliance on hunters mark for so many class and subclass features is the big miss here, I especially think it makes the beast master a very frustrating choice.
I imagine someone would pick the beast master because they would like to use their pet as much as possible, now every combat will be a constant "Awh man, my hunters mark target died, guess my beast wont attack this round" loop, or you can choose to not use 5 of your features at high levels.
If the beast Master works the same as it did in Tasha's, then you don't have to give up your beast's turn for Hunter's Mark. You can instead give up one of your attacks to command the pet and free up your bonus action. Why do people always forget this?
You literally have the option between your two attacks + the beast's attacks and no BA, or one attack + the beast's attacks + your BA.
New Rangers get three expertises; not one. You get the other two at level 9.
Rangers are already competitive with Rogues at stealth and Intel-gathering. And none of that has changed. They still get PwT, they can still Speak with Animals and Beast Sense, etc. And, as mentioned above, they now get three expertises. So you can have expertise in stealth, survival, and perception. Being prepared ritual casters means they can now take more niche spells for Intel-gathering than they could before. And PwT means they're just as good at stealth as a Rogue with reliable talent (technically slightly more.) None of that has changed.
Hunter's Mark already gives you advantage on tracking.
Like, I get it. People hate the 2024 Ranger. And it does have its problems. But let's focus on what it actually gets wrong instead of inventing nonexistent problems to justify our confirmation bias, yeah?
I also think the loss of such unique builds is actually a real detriment. Str-ranger builds could be really well developed and give such rangers a unique spin on the class. a str-rangers could really mix up the stat distribution and have fun with it. (low wisdom, low dex or low con builds)
Bragging about one expertise early and two more latter isn't really a big deal. (2024) With Favored terrain at many tables I could get a functional 2-5(I've gotten 9 with at feat) expertise and/or possible advantage with favored enemy. Thankfully it was sometimes limited by the situation because it could be ridiculous otherwise. (2014)
using huntersmark to actually gain advantage on tracking is quite rare because it requires sight and being with-in 90ft. allowing it to not require sight of the creature would be really helpful. I would prefer it to allow you to target using primeval awareness but on the tracks rather than the creature would actually allow huntersmark to become regularly useful for tracking.
Also I am not convinced there isn't new PWT nerf and even if it hasn't there's still concentration on it and beast sense. meaning HM cant track while using it or any other spell.
So with only one expertise(at early levels) and no other real tools to track a ranger "playing to type" will be forced with their choice. The ranger is an interacting web of abilities that need to not conflict in order to function.
TLDR: Basically I think SaurianDruid is trying to focus on the issues.
Some notes on pass without trace.
1. Since surprise won't give you a whole round of killing enemies anymore the biggest offensive boon from PWT is mostly gone.
2. Crawford in one of his recent videos discussed PWT in regard to the concept that it doesn't make you invisible. You can't PWT through an open area in front of a guard. It still uses stealth. It is possible that the wording will remind the DM that PWT does not overcome open line of sight. I would bet that the "nerf" here will come in the stealth section and not in the spell, and by nerf it will simply work the way it has always meant to.
Gonna keep this short because others have already said most of it:
RANGERS SHOULD NOT BE DEFINED BY THE SPELL HUNTER'S MARK.
Forcing player's to use their concentration slot in order to benefit from the abilities you are supposed to enjoy naturally is wrong. I play the tank in my party as a ranger, and simply enjoy a high AC with items and spells. To forcibly deny rangers from taking advantage of other combat related concentration spells is as close to saying "You are not playing your ranger how we want you to play your ranger" as you can get.
Hunter's Mark = Divine Smite = Rage = Sneak Attack = Extra/Extra Attack = Flurry of blows
These are the damage mechanics each of the martial classes use to scale their damage through their career. Some are better at it than others. Some have enhancements later. None of these features fully define their class and that includes Hunter's Mark.
It is my opinion that 2024 makes you less reliant on HM by making it more and more disposable. You have PB free uses a day. That means you can cast it for one enemy and then switch to something else with minimal loss. If you just need damage then cast HM. If you need control cast entangle or something else. They made you a semi prepared caster so you can even actually use the Ranger's wonderful spell list. You can now actually prep speak with animals without being locked into it for an entire level, and since HM is prepped for free it doesn't even count against that number. You no longer pay a HM penalty in spells known and slots used.
HM is just a very good way to mechanically interpret the Ranger's hunting character style. They made it better and easier to use in 2024 while making it also easier to use and cast other things.
I would agree with what you are saying, except for the fact that you NEED to use HM in order to benefit from many of the core features a number of key levels give you. If the free uses of HM just came with other abilities that didn't require you to sacrifice your concentration slot in order to use them, then I'd say all the extra HM-themed class features would be great! But unlike "Divine Smite = Rage = Sneak Attack = Extra/Extra Attack = Flurry of blows", HM demands that you occupy your concentration slot. The only other ability that comes close to this type of sacrifice is the barbarian Rage, since you cant cast any spells at all. Every other class' ability isn't taking up a core game mechanic slot.
Maybe I wasn't very clear, but my complaint isn't about the total number of Expertise we get (though I do think it's silly we only get three when the full caster Bard's last playtest still got four. I guess we'll see if they still do when the Bard video comes out). My complaint was about when we get that expertise.
I'd rather get my expertise points early. I don't think two expertise + two languages would be a particularly overpowered feature. Then at 9th level we could get another Expertise and some other benefit. Maybe "Hunter's Mark can't be broken" from 13th level or "Hunter's Mark gives Advantage" from 17th. I want to feel like I am a skilled wilderness survivalist the entire campaign, not just at the tail end of tier 2.
And the thing with Hunter's Mark's tracking is you need to target a creature with it first. THEN you can track them, assuming it ran away and assuming it never gets beyond 90 ft of you. My proposal was to let the ranger cast it on tracks they've found (and ideally without a range restriction), allowing them to get Advantage on future Survival and Perception checks as they try to track the creature back to its lair. It's a small feature power-wise but it makes the feature more flexible as a tracking tool and lets rangers use their now core, iconic spell in a way no other class can.
I don't think I'm inventing problems at all. Classes must have what they need for their core flavor to shine through by level 3, and only a single Expertise isn't enough to feel like a master woodsman.
It's also just a major part of the class fantasy in most literature. Aragorn, Geralt of Rivia, Jon Snow, Minsc, etc. They all use longswords. A class feature that allows the Ranger to actually use its huge list of martial weapons it is proficient with without significantly impacting the class' performance would go a long way.
I'm happy that Hunter's Mark became core to the Ranger, but I'm not happy that it's a concentration spell. Like the 2014 Smite, having it be a class ability just works better to presenting it as the class's ability while reminding the players they have it. Making it a spell hides it from you, not to mention having concentration. The old smite spells using concentration limited the paladin from using their other buffs if they wanted them.
Here's the house rules I'm currently considering for Rangers in my games:
Level 1: Spellcasting: Allow the Ranger to prepare all their spells each day. Allow the Ranger to use their weapon as a primal focus (carve runes and attach totems to it, etc).
(This brings them to how they were in 3rd edition, and helps them be better prepared for upcoming situations. Strongly considering adding a cantrip progression to Ranger and Paladin as well for kicks.)
Level 1: Favored Enemy: One free cast of Hunter's Mark each day (or maybe free castings up to your Wisdom modifier to make Wisdom more important early on; I don't like having it be proficiency bonus or just scaling with level because I think Wisdom should be important). Also, you can cast hunter's Mark on a creature for no action when you take the attack action to attack that creature.
(See the Hunter's Mark spell below for changes, but switched to 1/round damage, scaling damage with higher level spell slots, but removed concentration and the ability to switch targets. These changes are to make it more comparable to level dipping Rogue for 1/round damage, and also so the Hunter's Mark damage boost can be compared to Smite type spells. By removing concentration from the spell rather than as a class ability, and by having it be 1/round damage, dipping concerns are gone. Letting rangers cast it for free when they attack helps with action economy issues, like Beast Master and Vanish).
Level 1: Weapon Mastery: Unchanged.
(I like rangers only getting 2 masteries. Maybe getting 2 masteries but learning more cantrips can be their trade vs Fighters.)
Level 2: Deft Explorer: +2 languages, and gain expertise 1 skill off the Ranger’s list that you are proficient with. Also, gain proficiency in Survival; if you were already proficient, you gain expertise in Survival instead.
(Fixed expertise in Survival helps make this weaker than just 2 expertises, to both differentiate it from rogue expertise, to balance the +2 languages, and to ensure that the ranger is always good at survival.)
Level 2: Fighting Style: Unchanged. (But if I add base cantrips, I'll remove Druidic Warrior.)
Level 3 (and 7, 11, and 15): Ranger Subclasses: all ranger subclasses gain additional spells known, 1 per spell level, so there's parity between Hunter and Beast Master and the other subclasses. There's plenty of spells that feel too fitting for a Beast Master to not have.
Beastmaster
3. Find Familiar
5. Enhance Ability
9. Conjure Animals
13. Giant Insect
17. Insect Plague
Hunter
3. Snare
5. See Invisibility
9. Haste
13. Improved Invisibility
17. Hold Monster
Level 3: Primeval Awareness: Whenever you take a long rest, you gain spells known based on the terrain you're in, 1 per spell level. These are largely exploration and survival spells.
(I'm bringing this ability back but changing it. This allows the Ranger to match the Paladin’s subclass spells known, 2 per level, by mixing terrain spells with their subclass spells. It also helps the Ranger to feel always prepared for the environment they are in, which adds to the fantasy of the Ranger. It also has synergy with the Land Druid.)
Temperate
Arid
Polar
Temperate
Tropical
Underdark
Level 4 (8, 12, and 16): Feat: Unchanged.
Level 5: Extra Attack: Unchanged.
Level 6: Roving: Unchanged. (I actually like this as a replacement for Land's Stride, as it feels less magical and differentiates a Ranger's way of getting around the woods vs a Druid’s.)
Level 6: Relentless Hunter: Moved to 6th level, but changed. You may cast Hunter's Mark upon a target with unlimited range as long as you make an attack against it or you are examining its tracks or one of its possessions. While traveling, you can track and still perform another task.
(Since I effectively removed the need for this ability, I changed it to modify the Hunter's Mark spell in ways that benefit exploration, making the signature spell useful in more situations. I could also put “remove concentration from hunters mark” here if everyone thinks concentration free doesn't work for the base spell.)
Level 9: Ranging Expertise: You gain expertise in 2 additional Ranger skills. Additionally, you can change your Primeval Awareness terrain during a short rest.
(A small mostly exploration focused ability to justify changing the name of this ability, and to add to the Ranger's exploration theme.)
Level 13: Precise Hunter: Moved to 13th level. You gain advantage on attacks against Hunter's Mark targets, and Hunter's Mark targets suffer disadvantage to saving throws made against your attacks and abilities.
(I moved this to a lower level and buffed it so rangers who like spells have a bonus too.)
Level 14: Nature's Veil: Unchanged.
(Even though I really don't like this ability, as rangers aren't all automatically stealthy. This ability could have just been a spell, but I do like how it can still be useful to non-stealthy Rangers. I don't know what I'd replace it with, and I do like that it harkens back to 3E and 5E camouflage and hide in plain sight.)
Level 17: One with Nature: You gain resistance to poison damage and advantage to saves vs poison damage or the poisoned condition. You gain an additional resistance determined by your Primeval Awareness (fire for arid, cold for Arctic, and such like the land druid), and you have advantage on saves vs environmental or planar effects.
(I really wanted to finish off the deft explorer > ranging expertise exploration chain of abilities, but I didn't want anything offensive.)
Level 18: Feral Senses: Unchanged.
(Blindsense was such an easy fix for this, I'm glad they went with it.)
Level 19: Epic Boon: Unchanged.
(I really like that they managed to incorporate this. It helps introduce the idea of epic and entice going further.)
Level 20: Foe Slayer: Add your Wisdom Modifier to damage against targets of your Hunter's Mark.
(Reverting to something like the 2014 version since my Hunter's Mark damage already scales. Barbarians get +2 to hit and damage with all attacks and +2 hp per level. Fighters get an extra attack. I don't think up to +5 damage will be a problem. But I'm the least married to this. I might also like something like a save or “die” where you can expend your Hunter's Mark mark on a target to deal + a lot of damage. Or something that feels like taking controlled aim and delivering a death shot… but that could just be a 5th level spell.)
Here's my pitch for a patched Hunter's Mark (and Hex, because they should follow the same flow to me).
Hunter's Mark
1st-level divination
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: 90 feet
Components: V
Duration: 1 hour
You choose a creature you can see within range and mystically mark it as your quarry. Until the spell ends, the first time you hit the target with a weapon attack each round, you deal an extra 1d6 force damage. You also have advantage on any Wisdom (Perception) or Wisdom (Survival) check you make to find it.
If you cast this spell upon a target currently affected by your previous casting of this spell, the first casting is replaced by the second.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 3rd or 4th level, the spell's duration increases to 8 hours and the damage increases to +2d6. When you use a spell slot of 5th level or higher, the spell's duration increases to 24 hours and the damage increases to +3d6.
Hex
1st-level enchantment
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: 90 feet
Components: V, S, M (the petrified eye of a newt)
Duration: 1 hour
You place a curse on a creature that you can see within range. Until the spell ends, the first time you hit it with an attack each round, you deal an extra 1d6 necrotic damage to the target. Also, choose one ability when you cast the spell. The target has disadvantage on ability checks made with the chosen ability.
If you cast this spell upon a target currently affected by your previous casting of this spell, the first casting is replaced by the second. Also, a remove curse cast on the target ends this spell early.
At Higher Levels.When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 3rd or 4th level, the spell's duration increases to 8 hours and the damage increases to +2d6. When you use a spell slot of 5th or 6th level, the spell's duration increases to 24 hours and the damage increases to +3d6. When you use a spell slot of 7th or 8th level, the spell's duration increases to 1 year and the damage increases to +4d6. When you use a 9th level spell slot, the duration becomes permanent and the damage increases to +5d6.
(I've changed Hunter's Mark and Hex to the playtest scaling 1/round damage, but removed concentration. I believe that will balance these spells against other spell options, like Smites. Smite deals +9 average damage with a first level slot. One would have to hit 3 times to do more than that damage. 3rd level slots would be 18 damage with 3 hits to beat, and 5th level would be 27 damage with 3 hits to beat. The multiple chances of hitting once in a round of high level Eldritch Blast or ranger multiple attacks drives up the dage percentage closer to 100%, keeping it balanced with smite as well).
STR Rangers can get away with only a 14 Dex and use the stealth penalty heavier medium armors, giving them better AC than Dex Rangers earlier (though they end up being the same, unless they changed the armor table on 2024).
STR 16, Dex 14, Con 12, Wis 14 is not a difficult spread to start with.
That spread works alright, but the concern is... What's the point?
Dual Wielding with Hunter's Mark has a higher DPR by a decent amount as far as the damage tables I've seen show. For lower damage you're sacrificing CON so you have less HP and lower WIS so various ranger features (like your animal companion's AC and damage for Beastmaster or Tireless' temp HP) are less effective, and the ability to stealth.
The gap between STRanger and other ranger builds seems so much bigger than before that it is actively choosing to be a worse ranger with no upside.
I would have dropped wisdom. Building with the 2014 phb beastmaster not being tied to wisdom and wolves often having a pp of 21 dumping wisdom can be a fun counter build and thematic. The benefits of high strength are different weapons and armor and huge carry weight. Often extra equipment like pulleys or crowbars can solve adventure problems before they start.
There are so many subtle factors to ranger builds that is why what one person considers a nessecity others view it as trash.
IMO. That subtle nature is also why so many people don't like the ranger design. It often isn't obvious about its unique power build options.
Yes, we should be able to more chose our "subtilities".
Vifarc Cordelibre, the most unique ranger-tank, the wood-elf heavy-ranger.
I love the buff in spellcasting, expanded fighting style options, increased movement, weapon masteries, and expertise in 3 skills! So much customization versatility right there.
You can have expertise in grappling and throw enemies for fall damage with your climb speed. Or take them underwater and destroy them.
Hot take; I think that 2024 Ranger is better than 2024 Paladin with the Smite nerf.
As someone who enjoys rangers, I feel insulted by it, They took any thing that would allow us to make unique characters and Forced hunter's mark upon everyone that plays rangers, they are allowing NO UNIQUE builds with ranger, it is just you want to be ranger? well you MUST use Hunter's mark and nothing else.
Tasha's was a good direction but they trashed it.
Until we see if Hunter's Mark is per hit or per turn I will hold my judgment.
However, if they are to lean so hard into HM I kind of wish that it wasn't a spell and just a normal class feature that can't be countered. You could still use spell slots to cast it... but why not have it as a feature that you can use a certain amount of times linked to your Wisdom.
Not only that but if it's now the core class feature... why not have each subclass interact with it? It seems a couple of them already do but it would be much more flavorful if it evolved as you leveled up. Relentless Hunter just seems to have it so that concentration won't be broken from damage, so throw in a subclass effect to make this level a little more interesting.
Gloom Stalker: Stalker's Mark: During the first round of combat you gain an extra 10 movement towards your marked enemy and can make an extra attack against them this round.
Fey Wanderer: Charming Mark: A marked creature succumbs to a fey-like brain fog and rolls at disadvantage against being charmed.
Hunter: Predator's Mark: You now know the marked creature's hit points and ONE of their stat modifiers (of your choice).
Beast Master: Savage Mark: Your animal companion can make one attack against a marked creature when you attack it, without using a bonus action.