So far everything I've seen with 2024 ranger makes me believe playing phb+tasha's is still the superior design for fun and theme.
So lets discuss some ways it might fix old "problems" or still be a better route.
1. Updated spells work on both. (With a few exceptions the list should be better)
2. Skill and tool clarity really helps define favored terrain ande favored enemy skill checks. Making them less dependent on the dm.
3.(eventually)Monsters being better designed for cr means the skills rangers have to leverage beasts will be improved. Even non-beasts will be re organized so, recalling specific new traits will be more beneficial.
4. The tasha's options give the same or better results at less of a cost.
5. Other tangential mecanics changes will make play options better. Less delineated versions of damage, difficult terrain and status conditions. Bastion and crafting rules etc.
I don't really get why you think the old er versions of the ranger are superior.
1) Yes, the old builds could be switched over to the new spells without any real problems. the problems come with the changes to when spell casting starts (now L1 not 2) and with the change from known to semi prepared spells. These changes make the 2024 ranger superior generally. yes some of the newer ranger subclasses get expanded spell lists so they can "know" more spells but the 2024 ranger has access to the entire spell list being able to change out their entire spell list withing about 2 weeks or less in most cases. 1B) The old (2014) terrain and enemy rules gave you advantage (+4 effective bonus) on tracking and knowledge checks on 4 or 5 out of 13+ groups of creatures and effectively expertise on wisdom and intelligence skill checks related to the terrains - 3 out of 8 terrain types. The new (2024) ranger gets 3 expertise's - if they choose nature and survival they get a +4 to +12 bonus on such checks - seems to me to be much better. The extra natural explorer ribbons are, to my mind, all things effectively covered by this expertise or other benefits of the new ranger. 2) Skill and tool clarity helps all rangers, not just the 2014 ones. many of the problems ranger players face are caused because of a mismatch between the woodland knowledge and skills of the player and DM not so much of the character. 3) the "better designed" monsters are going to be balanced for the 2024 versions of the classes not the 2014. This means they will be taking into account things like weapon mastery that the older rangers don't have - or are you going to tack that onto them bringing them more in line with the 2024 rangers? Yes, being able to recall specific new traits will be very useful but doing so is already covered in the 2024 version. 4) most of those options are built into the 2024 version. My biggest complaint is the capstone - I liked the +5 to hit far more than the +5 to damage and getting only a +10 to damage (so half the time it's a +5 or less) doesn't enthrall me. 5) Yes, the new mechanics should make playing options better, but the 2 major changes are to the beast master which seems to be an improved Tasha and the Gloom stalker which has had it round 1 nova abilities significantly reduced (which I'm sure is annoying the gloom stalker fans which I never was). The improvements to the hunter make it significantly better with its ability to change out offensive and defensive abilities on a long rest (I would have liked even more ability to change these out but ...)
I think the older versions of the ranger are i9ndeed playable under the new rules but I also think we ranger fans will slowly discover that the new ranger is, in fact, superior to the old and will convert our older rangers to the new over the next 2-3 years.
I don't really get why you think the old er versions of the ranger are superior.
I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I stated appears "superior for fun and theme." 2024 is probably superior in "power" and ease of use But this thread wasn't created with goal of comparison.
I was creating a space to discuss how can still enjoy the old experience as there's still much to explore with old builds.
It seems the old version requires a discussion space to talk about its place with the new rules. That's all.
3) the "better designed" monsters are going to be balanced for the 2024 versions of the classes not the 2014. This means they will be taking into account things like weapon mastery that the older rangers don't have - or are you going to tack that onto them bringing them more in line with the 2024 rangers? Yes, being able to recall specific new traits will be very useful but doing so is already covered in the 2024 version.
If a player wants the masteries there is a feat that will add them to any class. Is the cost worth it? only time will tell.
The rebalanced beast statblocks in particular means ally animals are stronger.this includes npcs, or Purchased mounts. Each may have unique traits or be sturdier. The phb beastmaster will have new/revised creature choices.
In particular beasts were one category of monsters that never even stood up to old versions of the same cr but if wotc told the truth about cr rebalance this will really benefit the natural portion of adventuring. Dms may be more willing for beast encounters instead of focusing on monstrosities or deamons.
Being a semi prepared caster is one of the more important ways to help improve life as a Ranger. In the new rules they will be able to swap a spell during a long rest. One of the really great things about the Ranger is their spell list is amazing. Its really full of useful spells, but that has been hampered by the spells known mechanic. Instead of being able to have the right spell for the right encounter you had to take broadly useful spells over specific ones. With the ability to swap the power of the list becomes huge.
In addition with Hunter's Mark now automatically prepared you end up with an extra spell prep. You also have free uses of HM which means you might actually have slots to use with that great spell list. A spell like Silence, Locate Animals and Plants, or Water breathing would be difficult to select on a 2014 Ranger who has very few spells known, but could be easily swapped in on the 2024 version. The final spell list will be critical here. If some of the Tasha's expanded spell list materials make it onto their full list it could be even stronger (Entangle, Summon Beast, Fey, etc).
3) the "better designed" monsters are going to be balanced for the 2024 versions of the classes not the 2014. This means they will be taking into account things like weapon mastery that the older rangers don't have - or are you going to tack that onto them bringing them more in line with the 2024 rangers? Yes, being able to recall specific new traits will be very useful but doing so is already covered in the 2024 version.
If a player wants the masteries there is a feat that will add them to any class. Is the cost worth it? only time will tell.
The rebalanced beast statblocks in particular means ally animals are stronger.this includes npcs, or Purchased mounts. Each may have unique traits or be sturdier. The phb beastmaster will have new/revised creature choices.
In particular beasts were one category of monsters that never even stood up to old versions of the same cr but if wotc told the truth about cr rebalance this will really benefit the natural portion of adventuring. Dms may be more willing for beast encounters instead of focusing on monstrosities or deamons.
This should benefit all rangers old and new.
I wasn’t actually thinking about using a feat for the masteries. Rather, if anything I would do it by DM fiat - all martials, 2024, 2014, Tasha’s automatically get weapon mastery. To me, if the rules and balance are going to include it as part of the balance all martials should get it not just any new creations.
I agree that the new stat blocks should be improved and stronger benefiting the 2014 beast masters certainly.My question is - will they be equal or better than the “primal spirit” upgrading beasts of Tasha’s and ( I believe) 2024. Will it improve the 2014 beast master? Certainly. Enough to make not converting worthwhile? I’m not so sure.
At L20 a ranger (2014) has 11 known spells, the Xanther and Tasha subclasses gain an additional 5 ( or in one case 6) extra known spells and 15 spell slots. I wouldn’t be surprised if the 2024 ranger (L20) had 15 slots and 15 spells they could have prepared/known. I wouldn’t be surprised either if there were a ruling in there that 2014 hunters and beastmaster could use the new progression for known spells to bring them up to the standard of Xanther/Tasha/2024. This would put all subclasses on the same level spells wise.
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Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
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So far everything I've seen with 2024 ranger makes me believe playing phb+tasha's is still the superior design for fun and theme.
So lets discuss some ways it might fix old "problems" or still be a better route.
1. Updated spells work on both. (With a few exceptions the list should be better)
2. Skill and tool clarity really helps define favored terrain ande favored enemy skill checks. Making them less dependent on the dm.
3.(eventually)Monsters being better designed for cr means the skills rangers have to leverage beasts will be improved. Even non-beasts will be re organized so, recalling specific new traits will be more beneficial.
4. The tasha's options give the same or better results at less of a cost.
5. Other tangential mecanics changes will make play options better. Less delineated versions of damage, difficult terrain and status conditions. Bastion and crafting rules etc.
I don't really get why you think the old er versions of the ranger are superior.
1) Yes, the old builds could be switched over to the new spells without any real problems. the problems come with the changes to when spell casting starts (now L1 not 2) and with the change from known to semi prepared spells. These changes make the 2024 ranger superior generally. yes some of the newer ranger subclasses get expanded spell lists so they can "know" more spells but the 2024 ranger has access to the entire spell list being able to change out their entire spell list withing about 2 weeks or less in most cases.
1B) The old (2014) terrain and enemy rules gave you advantage (+4 effective bonus) on tracking and knowledge checks on 4 or 5 out of 13+ groups of creatures and effectively expertise on wisdom and intelligence skill checks related to the terrains - 3 out of 8 terrain types. The new (2024) ranger gets 3 expertise's - if they choose nature and survival they get a +4 to +12 bonus on such checks - seems to me to be much better. The extra natural explorer ribbons are, to my mind, all things effectively covered by this expertise or other benefits of the new ranger.
2) Skill and tool clarity helps all rangers, not just the 2014 ones. many of the problems ranger players face are caused because of a mismatch between the woodland knowledge and skills of the player and DM not so much of the character.
3) the "better designed" monsters are going to be balanced for the 2024 versions of the classes not the 2014. This means they will be taking into account things like weapon mastery that the older rangers don't have - or are you going to tack that onto them bringing them more in line with the 2024 rangers? Yes, being able to recall specific new traits will be very useful but doing so is already covered in the 2024 version.
4) most of those options are built into the 2024 version. My biggest complaint is the capstone - I liked the +5 to hit far more than the +5 to damage and getting only a +10 to damage (so half the time it's a +5 or less) doesn't enthrall me.
5) Yes, the new mechanics should make playing options better, but the 2 major changes are to the beast master which seems to be an improved Tasha and the Gloom stalker which has had it round 1 nova abilities significantly reduced (which I'm sure is annoying the gloom stalker fans which I never was). The improvements to the hunter make it significantly better with its ability to change out offensive and defensive abilities on a long rest (I would have liked even more ability to change these out but ...)
I think the older versions of the ranger are i9ndeed playable under the new rules but I also think we ranger fans will slowly discover that the new ranger is, in fact, superior to the old and will convert our older rangers to the new over the next 2-3 years.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I stated appears "superior for fun and theme." 2024 is probably superior in "power" and ease of use But this thread wasn't created with goal of comparison.
I was creating a space to discuss how can still enjoy the old experience as there's still much to explore with old builds.
It seems the old version requires a discussion space to talk about its place with the new rules. That's all.
If a player wants the masteries there is a feat that will add them to any class. Is the cost worth it? only time will tell.
The rebalanced beast statblocks in particular means ally animals are stronger.this includes npcs, or Purchased mounts. Each may have unique traits or be sturdier. The phb beastmaster will have new/revised creature choices.
In particular beasts were one category of monsters that never even stood up to old versions of the same cr but if wotc told the truth about cr rebalance this will really benefit the natural portion of adventuring. Dms may be more willing for beast encounters instead of focusing on monstrosities or deamons.
This should benefit all rangers old and new.
Being a semi prepared caster is one of the more important ways to help improve life as a Ranger. In the new rules they will be able to swap a spell during a long rest. One of the really great things about the Ranger is their spell list is amazing. Its really full of useful spells, but that has been hampered by the spells known mechanic. Instead of being able to have the right spell for the right encounter you had to take broadly useful spells over specific ones. With the ability to swap the power of the list becomes huge.
In addition with Hunter's Mark now automatically prepared you end up with an extra spell prep. You also have free uses of HM which means you might actually have slots to use with that great spell list. A spell like Silence, Locate Animals and Plants, or Water breathing would be difficult to select on a 2014 Ranger who has very few spells known, but could be easily swapped in on the 2024 version. The final spell list will be critical here. If some of the Tasha's expanded spell list materials make it onto their full list it could be even stronger (Entangle, Summon Beast, Fey, etc).
I wasn’t actually thinking about using a feat for the masteries. Rather, if anything I would do it by DM fiat - all martials, 2024, 2014, Tasha’s automatically get weapon mastery. To me, if the rules and balance are going to include it as part of the balance all martials should get it not just any new creations.
I agree that the new stat blocks should be improved and stronger benefiting the 2014 beast masters certainly.My question is - will they be equal or better than the “primal spirit” upgrading beasts of Tasha’s and ( I believe) 2024. Will it improve the 2014 beast master? Certainly. Enough to make not converting worthwhile? I’m not so sure.
At L20 a ranger (2014) has 11 known spells, the Xanther and Tasha subclasses gain an additional 5 ( or in one case 6) extra known spells and 15 spell slots. I wouldn’t be surprised if the 2024 ranger (L20) had 15 slots and 15 spells they could have prepared/known. I wouldn’t be surprised either if there were a ruling in there that 2014 hunters and beastmaster could use the new progression for known spells to bring them up to the standard of Xanther/Tasha/2024. This would put all subclasses on the same level spells wise.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.