Rangers are less of a combat numbers problem and more of a class problem. The game has less breadth of appeal in 2024. Meaning classes play the same rather than appeal to different playstyles. People who want a fighter/survivalist or steathy nature expert can get that play from other builds.
What 2024 doesn't have is a unique reason/mechanic to exist and to top it off 2024 undermines themes ranger character narratives want. It encourages specific features (at the detriment of others) rather than providing them as tool options.
At least 2014 had unique abilities and diagetic interactions with the game mechanics. Now it could have used some clarity and cleanup but with a good group it actually functions fine.
I agree. I don't think the Ranger's issue as a class is single target damage, dps, or multi target damage. The Ranger's issue is that it lacks a unique and interesting class feature that people want to play. Barbarians Rage. Bards Inspire. Clerics Channel Divinity. Druids Wildshape. Fighter Action Surge their multi-attacks. Monks Focus on Martial Arts. Paladins Smite in their Aura. Rogues Sneak Attack. Sorcerers Meta their Magic. Warlocks Invoke Patron powers. Wizards Ritual cast from their extensive Spellbook. Even Artificers Infuse magic items (or whatever the UA is calling it for now.)
Rangers have Hunter's Mark. It doesn't scale well. And some of the features they added for 2024 to try to improve it come into effect at very late levels, and they are of questionable mechanical value (Advantage at level 17, after level 14 gives you momentary Invisibility, for example.) Of course, there's the issue with it consuming your concentration resource.
I'd like to see the Ranger have a feature that allows them to assist their party members in either skills, or attacks/damage, or both. Idk if this would manifest as some kind of Aura, like the Paladin, only for skill checks? Or if Hunter's Mark would have a feature that grants the next attacker Advantage? I'm not sure. But some kind of feature that would let the Ranger, in effect, tell party members how/where to attack monsters, like Legolas telling those around him where the orc's armor is weak at the Battle of Helm's Deep. (I understand this is the theme behind the Hunter's "Hunter's Lore" feature, but I was thinking about something that would give Advantage to the party or to an ally, or perhaps a damage boost or an attack bonus?)
Idk. I really don't know. But I think there's more to Ranger than just Hunter's Mark and single target damage. But it's difficult to pin down what they should be. Are they the quintessential Archer? But people also want them to be melee fighters. Are they the archetypical woodsman- tracking, scouting, and hunting? But how can that translate into environments like towns, tombs, and dungeons (where many, if not most, adventures take place)? Rangers are difficult to define and even more difficult to define mechanically. I think WotC did a decent job on the 2024 base class with features like Expertise, Roving, & Tireless. I think adding features to Hunter's Mark wasn't the worst idea, but I think they could have found more interesting (and mechanically effective) ways to implement it.
Hunters mark doesn’t scale well?
you’re not using it correctly. You clearly have not ever upcast a hunters mark on a target that you need more time to prepare for. Taken a long rest and prepared, and then still tracked it down because of the hunters mark.
thats at high levels vs problematic things that typically have lairs and lair effects. After sneaking in better than a rogue can because of pass without a trace.
Just saying. If you are only using hunters mark IMMEDIATELY when combat begins. Or EXLCLUSIVELY in combat. You’re not using it to its full potential- so of course it “wouldn’t scale” it’s not being used properly.
Really a good point, hunter mark is greater than it seem, i highlight it with the hunter subclass in the OP. Especially for new players or a DM that use many uncommon creatures...
And yah rogue are tier F character, completly eclipse by Bard or Ranger that combine expertise with great utility spells.
Really cool that many players don t see Rangers as trash like at my table were it shine a lot.
It shines at most tables. Is it perfect? Of course not but it’s a solid class if played well. There are lots of tweaks it could get and clear role and ability that other classes don’t have would be good start.
It shines at most tables. Is it perfect? Of course not but it’s a solid class if played well. There are lots of tweaks it could get and clear role and ability that other classes don’t have would be good start.
It has a very clear role and ability——- people, a lot, just don’t use it for the way it could, should, and is lowkey designed to be used…..
Rangers are less of a combat numbers problem and more of a class problem. The game has less breadth of appeal in 2024. Meaning classes play the same rather than appeal to different playstyles. People who want a fighter/survivalist or steathy nature expert can get that play from other builds.
What 2024 doesn't have is a unique reason/mechanic to exist and to top it off 2024 undermines themes ranger character narratives want. It encourages specific features (at the detriment of others) rather than providing them as tool options.
At least 2014 had unique abilities and diagetic interactions with the game mechanics. Now it could have used some clarity and cleanup but with a good group it actually functions fine.
I agree. I don't think the Ranger's issue as a class is single target damage, dps, or multi target damage. The Ranger's issue is that it lacks a unique and interesting class feature that people want to play. Barbarians Rage. Bards Inspire. Clerics Channel Divinity. Druids Wildshape. Fighter Action Surge their multi-attacks. Monks Focus on Martial Arts. Paladins Smite in their Aura. Rogues Sneak Attack. Sorcerers Meta their Magic. Warlocks Invoke Patron powers. Wizards Ritual cast from their extensive Spellbook. Even Artificers Infuse magic items (or whatever the UA is calling it for now.)
Rangers have Hunter's Mark. It doesn't scale well. And some of the features they added for 2024 to try to improve it come into effect at very late levels, and they are of questionable mechanical value (Advantage at level 17, after level 14 gives you momentary Invisibility, for example.) Of course, there's the issue with it consuming your concentration resource.
I'd like to see the Ranger have a feature that allows them to assist their party members in either skills, or attacks/damage, or both. Idk if this would manifest as some kind of Aura, like the Paladin, only for skill checks? Or if Hunter's Mark would have a feature that grants the next attacker Advantage? I'm not sure. But some kind of feature that would let the Ranger, in effect, tell party members how/where to attack monsters, like Legolas telling those around him where the orc's armor is weak at the Battle of Helm's Deep. (I understand this is the theme behind the Hunter's "Hunter's Lore" feature, but I was thinking about something that would give Advantage to the party or to an ally, or perhaps a damage boost or an attack bonus?)
Idk. I really don't know. But I think there's more to Ranger than just Hunter's Mark and single target damage. But it's difficult to pin down what they should be. Are they the quintessential Archer? But people also want them to be melee fighters. Are they the archetypical woodsman- tracking, scouting, and hunting? But how can that translate into environments like towns, tombs, and dungeons (where many, if not most, adventures take place)? Rangers are difficult to define and even more difficult to define mechanically. I think WotC did a decent job on the 2024 base class with features like Expertise, Roving, & Tireless. I think adding features to Hunter's Mark wasn't the worst idea, but I think they could have found more interesting (and mechanically effective) ways to implement it.
Hunters mark doesn’t scale well?
you’re not using it correctly. You clearly have not ever upcast a hunters mark on a target that you need more time to prepare for. Taken a long rest and prepared, and then still tracked it down because of the hunters mark.
thats at high levels vs problematic things that typically have lairs and lair effects. After sneaking in better than a rogue can because of pass without a trace.
Just saying. If you are only using hunters mark IMMEDIATELY when combat begins. Or EXLCLUSIVELY in combat. You’re not using it to its full potential- so of course it “wouldn’t scale” it’s not being used properly.
The problem is hunter's mark isn't unique. Either in concept or as a feature. Too many ways exist to just add damage and as a feature that exists as a spell it's easily ripped to other features. Dragon marks or other feats will always be tempted to take the spell.
Plus as much as some people think per hit damage on marks is rangery.... many other people don't.(I think accuracyis more important) It's not really an identity but a tool in the kit.Frankly I don't mind sharing it if I have different unique parts that function without any forced choices. So that's kinda why it can't be a ranger identity because it is so universal in concept appeal.
Actually, if you go with maths, and want DPS option with ranger, GO TWF. Number of attacks is the best value with buffs spells. Also, most Ytubers/spreedsheet analytic never take magic weapons in consideration, but at tier 3 it's ''normal'' to use +2 wepons, and TWF gain a little more from theses bonus. Sure depend on your DM... if you are in a very low magic campaign, where you cannot craft anything...
Plus as much as some people think per hit damage on marks is rangery.... many other people don't.(I think accuracyis more important)
Hunter's mark adding to damage rather than accuracy gives a higher dps with a d8 damage die and +5 to dex.
Accuracy and damage are both parts of a equation. Each variable could be adjusted to balance out a feature. I'm not even saying hunter's mark should be adjusted for accuracy just that a ranger identity of "most accurate class" wouldn't be a bad approach.
Personally I wish spells like Hunter's Mark only added their damage once per round, not once per hit.
Take this example: 5th level Ranger, Collosal Slayer, Two Weapon Fighting, using light weapons, one of which needs to be a Nick weapon.
First round: Bonus Action cast Hunter's Mark, Attack Action (2 attacks at 5th level), then off-hand attack using Nick property. Assume 18 dex just for giggles... that's d6 weapon +dex + d6 Hunter's Mark + d6 weapon +dex + d6 Hunter's Mark + d6 weapon +dex + d6 Hunter's Mark + d8 Collosal Slayer (once the enemy is hurt) for a total of 6d6+12+1d8 damage on first round.
Second round: Continue concentrating on Hunter's Mark, now take 2 attacks + off-hand attack of Light weapon using Nick as part of Attack action; then Bonus Action off-hand attack (don't forget to add Collosal Slayer in there too). For a total of 8d6+16+d8 damage per round without having rolled any crits.
And that's only 5th level. Granted it assumes everything hits and assumes concentration, but still that's a heck of a lot of damage for a 5th level martial.
And btw I tend to agree that better accuracy is better than higher damage. Fighting stuff with low ACs, yes the higher damage wins the day; but against foes that are hard to hit, the higher accuracy is FAR better. You can't miss fast enough to win a fight (as I used to tell my students). I'll always go with higher accuracy, yes it means I might do a little less damage against the stuff that's easy to hit (so what, it is easy to hit); while helping to ensure that I get to actually hit the really hard stuff too (instead of missing with every attack while praying for a crit).
Personally I wish spells like Hunter's Mark only added their damage once per round, not once per hit.
Take this example: 5th level Ranger, Collosal Slayer, Two Weapon Fighting, using light weapons, one of which needs to be a Nick weapon.
First round: Bonus Action cast Hunter's Mark, Attack Action (2 attacks at 5th level), then off-hand attack using Nick property. Assume 18 dex just for giggles... that's d6 weapon +dex + d6 Hunter's Mark + d6 weapon +dex + d6 Hunter's Mark + d6 weapon +dex + d6 Hunter's Mark + d8 Collosal Slayer (once the enemy is hurt) for a total of 6d6+12+1d8 damage on first round.
Second round: Continue concentrating on Hunter's Mark, now take 2 attacks + off-hand attack of Light weapon using Nick as part of Attack action; then Bonus Action off-hand attack (don't forget to add Collosal Slayer in there too). For a total of 8d6+16+d8 damage per round without having rolled any crits.
And that's only 5th level. Granted it assumes everything hits and assumes concentration, but still that's a heck of a lot of damage for a 5th level martial.
At least Divine Smite uses spell slots, Hunter's Mark uses ONE spell slot for the entire fight (potentially). I don't have a problem with smite, it can only be used once per round, and a Paladin that smites on every round (every hit in 2014 rules) will quickly run out of spell slots then spend the rest of the day regretting it.
If Hunter's Mark didn't require spell slots and was just a 1d6 once per turn, then it would not need to require concentration. HM sits in an interesting design space. It is too strong to not require concentration, but not strong enough to merit burning your concentration at high levels. The current version is OK. Rangers are very powerful levels 1-4 because of HM, but I am not sure that is really that important.
As I read this- most of the HM focus and discussion is on its damage.
so lets suggest an idea that puts it to rest-
rangers should have a separate concentration spell that is just for combat. Vs hunters mark which has some combat application, especially at low levels, but its greatest use is for out of combat tracking. (It’s basically like a spy/heist movie where you place a GPS on an unsuspecting target).
rangers at higher levels should have a concentration spell that enhances damage on a scaled level to the Ranger. Maybe even. Adds +1 to hit and 1d8/10 whatever, and as it scales the to hit and damage go up.
As I read this- most of the HM focus and discussion is on its damage.
so lets suggest an idea that puts it to rest-
rangers should have a separate concentration spell that is just for combat. Vs hunters mark which has some combat application, especially at low levels, but its greatest use is for out of combat tracking. (It’s basically like a spy/heist movie where you place a GPS on an unsuspecting target).
rangers at higher levels should have a concentration spell that enhances damage on a scaled level to the Ranger. Maybe even. Adds +1 to hit and 1d8/10 whatever, and as it scales the to hit and damage go up.
I usually try to limit house rules at my table. 2024 is the best balance D&D version ever, but as said in my original post, Rogues and Rangers are actually view as the last tier characters option. I don't think you can do a great "pure'' rogue with that version of D&D, but i think you can do great if not OP rangers with some build route. I gave 3 good options in the intro. And btw, it's really cool to have a beast and do great DPS :). For the application of hunters mark, i m really ok that s it s integrate in the build. metamagic, ki points, rages, shapeshift... Many class have a defining trait, and i m ok with hunters mark, that can be use for damage, tracking, and great info if you are hunter... Ok, it s just weird that s so many others spells require concentration, but you don t have many spells slot till tier 3 so it s easy to use spells on utility outside combat were you have some of the bests in the game (pass without trace still really good even with nerf to Stealth). As said before, removing concentration on hm before tier 3 will transform the ranger in a God at tier 1 and 2, so removing it at level 13 and maybe also make hm a free action, is a good timing to make rangers shine again till late carreer.
The 2024 Ranger is fine if you still go DEX. Dual-wielding and ranged rangers are both solid options, though they're not without their pain points. Level 13 should probably just make Hunter's Mark lose concentration, or at least let you move it to a new target as a free action. I'd also personally like Roving to let Rangers ignore non-magical difficult terrain to give Rangers a small, situational niche as scouts. I'd also maybe give Rangers Constitution Proficiency as a part of Tireless so they have some built-in protection for their high-level concentration spells. Plus, it's thematic to the Tireless feature, making rangers better at enduring the elements.
Unfortunately, the Strength-based Rangers would need something bigger to make them a decent option again. Too many things scale off WIS now, and you lose a whole feature if you go for heavy armor. An alternate method of calculating AC would probably be best. Maybe rangers can choose between DEX or CON to scale their AC. DEX Rangers would favor Light Armor and STRangers would favor Medium Armor in that case.
With these changes 2024 Ranger would be pretty close to perfect for me, I think.
Hunter's Mark should be a class feature, not a spell. As a class feature, it should not require concentration. And to clean up action economy, it should be a free action to apply its effects, upon hitting a target with a weapon attack or unarmed attack. Once applied to a target, it would last for one minute or until that creature dies. The feature would allow a certain number of Hunter's Marks, and they would increase with Ranger level. Probably around 2 to begin with, and increasing to 3 at level 5, 4 at level 11, and 5 at level 17 (keeping the use quantity increases concurrent with the damage scaling). All uses replenish upon completing a short or long rest. If the Ranger is out of uses of Hunter's Mark, they can use a spell slot of any level to initiate it.
The tracking aspect of the current spell could be replicated as a separate class feature, perhaps giving the Ranger the option to roll any Skill check or Tool in which they have Proficiency with Advantage a number of times per short rest equal to their number of Hunter's Mark uses.
Because it does not require concentration (and therefore cannot be counterspelled or dispelled), it should only be applicable once per turn. Its damage can scale, similar to how cantrip damage scales: 1d6 at lvl 1, 2d6 at lvl 5, 3d6 at lvl 11, and 4d6 at lvl 17. The once per turn mechanic makes it more broadly applicable for different fighting styles, which gives players more ways to choose to play their Ranger, without feeling like they have to choose certain styles for optimizing. Because of this, Rangers should have access to more fighting style choices at level 2. We should add Great Weapon Fighting, Thrown Weapon, Unarmed, and Dueling, at least.
The feature's damage would stack upon the damage of any spell. However, any area of effect spell- or spell that affects more than one target- could have the Mark's damage applied to only the creature that is currently marked. I don't think this would be out of balance when compared to the single round, single target damage capabilities of the Paladin or Rogue, for example.
As a separate issue, I'd like to see the Great Weapon Master feat be amended so that players can choose Strength or Dexterity (and maybe Constitution?) so that it would be a viable option for Longbow users. Otherwise, there should be some kind of feat that gives a damage boost for those who choose to focus upon ranged weapons, in line with the Great Weapon Master feat. I agree that melee fighters needed to be made more viable, but I think in boosting melee and nerfing ranged, they perhaps went too far in nerfing Ranged. At any rate, melee options are way more attractive (as far as single target damage optimization goes) in the 2024 rules. I understand that using ranged weapons grants a defensive positioning advantage (sometimes), but I think in a lot of cases, battle environments- like indoor rooms and smaller-sized caves, etc- render such positioning advantages relatively moot.
Ok, D&D 2024 is the best version ever from my pov. Easy to make really great build with all class and most of subclass, except for Rogues and Rangers. Without heavy multiclass, they heavily suck somewhere... Bah i think Rogue are the most F tier from lvl 1 to 20, but that s another story.
For Rangers, they are tier S at tier 1, tier A at tier 2... And begin to fall to tier D at level 9...
But when you dig a little bit, you can still do some great things with 3 of the 4 subclass and the right build.
1- For really good DPS, go look d4 coby hunters mark 2 weapons fighting beastmaster build on YT. Really good DPS !!! And you still get all the Rangers utilities..
2- With a heavy darkvision stealth team, go gloomstalker asimar or dragonborn range with 3 (4) warcleric multiclass. Gloomstalker is nerf from 2014 but still get a perma like invisibility at night (with no moon depend on dm...)... And invisible flying sniping from 120 feet is not bad. Or drow for 180 feets darkvision...
3- and hunter lore can be one of the greatest skill of the game for new players (less if the pkayers know all the monsters manual ...), also depending of the dm.... This said a hunter build on push mechanics, maybe with team help, using an maul heavy weapon build and horde breaker, will get 3 attacks per round most of the time at level 5... And also augment chance to get bonus attack from heavy weapon mastery... And push mechanics also go really well with many spells... Spike growth. I did a 3 sessions build with this and a push mechanics team... The Dpr is awesome !!!
Sure if your table house rule hunters mark concentration removal at level 13... Ranger now become really better at later tiers, but even without, you still can do really fun and really powerfull build on par with the others class.
Rangers are awesome but they are not a good DPS class, especially at high level, and Hunter's Mark sucks. Making HM non-concentration at level 13 is not going to help, because if you are basing your play style on a 1st level spell at 13th level you are not going to hold up well.
Great single class Ranger is a Dragonborn Fey Wanderer. You want to be the best Face in the party, while being a great controller. DPS is ok, but that is not your thing after level 7. Start with S8 D16 C12 W17 I8 CH13. Get Deception and Initimidation on a background.
Get Magic Initiate (Wizard) on Wisdom, pick up Shield, Truestrike and Friends. Go with Blind Fighting for your fighting style. Use a Heavy Crossbow and Versatile Longsword with Sap using Truestrike for your primary weapons. You can pick up some Daggers to throw with nick when you are using Hunter's Mark ... but damage isn't really your thing. You are ok in tier 1 because Rangers are generally really good here.
Level 2 take expertise in Intimidation.
Level 3 pick up persuasion. At this point you have a +6 Persuasion and Deception and a +8 Initmidation and we are still in tier 1!
At level 4 grab Shadow Touched with Wrathful Smite and boost Wisdom to 18
At level 7 Beguiling Twist!!! Stop using your crossbow, grab a shield, change out the shield spell for Cause Fear, get a thrown weapon for your primary ranged attack (I like Javelins and Tridents)
Level 8 get the Dragonfear Feat on Charisma
Level 9 Expertise in Deception and Persuasion, now you are rocking +14 in the 3 main charisma skills
Level 11 Fey Reinforcements!!! People talk about concentration free HM, this is a real spell to have concentration free, Mirthful Fey running around charming people every turn and you twisting it into frightened.
Level 12 boost Wisdom to 20. Now you have a +15 Deception, Persuasion and Initimidation and your +7 Performance without any training is not too shabby.
This character rocks really grdinding with frightened and charmed effects with an Army of Fey. Ideally try to pick up pipes of Haunting or a Wand of Fear somewhere.
This character is an awesome controller all by herself, but it gets even better if your party Wizard or Paladin gets into the spirit and start throwing charm or fear spells of their own.
Agree with all your points. Rangers are just fun to play in all facets of the game. Don't sleep on speak with plants though. Our party was escourting a queen for a King we were mercinaries for. I heard very faint noses like twigs breaking. Cast speak with plants and the trees told me where the assasins hunting us were. Plants can be great allies if used.
If you try to compare a half caster to a full caster you will always come up short, just as you will trying to compare a full caster to a melee martials in melee combat. The point of the half caster is not to beat either the full caster at casting, or the full martial at melee but to get most of the best of both worlds. This the ranger does quite well. Folks problems with it come when they try to make one of the mistakes above.in creative hands using both its martial and magical abilities the ranger is a top tier class. It might not have the dpr of a Paladin or the blasting ability of a sorceror but it can do both jobs when it has to and can switch from one to the other as needed by the round, no other class can do this as well. If what you want is AoE blasting then no it’s not the class for you, neither is it your class if you want to just charge in swinging your sword/melee weapon. It’s the solo artist dong both jobs well enough which also means it’s the thinking persons class as you have to recognize when each ability is the best and switch modes.
Amen !
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Hunters mark doesn’t scale well?
you’re not using it correctly. You clearly have not ever upcast a hunters mark on a target that you need more time to prepare for. Taken a long rest and prepared, and then still tracked it down because of the hunters mark.
thats at high levels vs problematic things that typically have lairs and lair effects. After sneaking in better than a rogue can because of pass without a trace.
Just saying. If you are only using hunters mark IMMEDIATELY when combat begins. Or EXLCLUSIVELY in combat. You’re not using it to its full potential- so of course it “wouldn’t scale” it’s not being used properly.
Blank
Really a good point, hunter mark is greater than it seem, i highlight it with the hunter subclass in the OP. Especially for new players or a DM that use many uncommon creatures...
And yah rogue are tier F character, completly eclipse by Bard or Ranger that combine expertise with great utility spells.
Really cool that many players don t see Rangers as trash like at my table were it shine a lot.
It shines at most tables. Is it perfect? Of course not but it’s a solid class if played well. There are lots of tweaks it could get and clear role and ability that other classes don’t have would be good start.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
It has a very clear role and ability——- people, a lot, just don’t use it for the way it could, should, and is lowkey designed to be used…..
Blank
The problem is hunter's mark isn't unique. Either in concept or as a feature. Too many ways exist to just add damage and as a feature that exists as a spell it's easily ripped to other features. Dragon marks or other feats will always be tempted to take the spell.
Plus as much as some people think per hit damage on marks is rangery.... many other people don't.(I think accuracyis more important) It's not really an identity but a tool in the kit.Frankly I don't mind sharing it if I have different unique parts that function without any forced choices. So that's kinda why it can't be a ranger identity because it is so universal in concept appeal.
Hunter's mark adding to damage rather than accuracy gives a higher dps with a d8 damage die and +5 to dex.
Actually, if you go with maths, and want DPS option with ranger, GO TWF. Number of attacks is the best value with buffs spells. Also, most Ytubers/spreedsheet analytic never take magic weapons in consideration, but at tier 3 it's ''normal'' to use +2 wepons, and TWF gain a little more from theses bonus. Sure depend on your DM... if you are in a very low magic campaign, where you cannot craft anything...
Accuracy and damage are both parts of a equation. Each variable could be adjusted to balance out a feature. I'm not even saying hunter's mark should be adjusted for accuracy just that a ranger identity of "most accurate class" wouldn't be a bad approach.
Personally I wish spells like Hunter's Mark only added their damage once per round, not once per hit.
Take this example: 5th level Ranger, Collosal Slayer, Two Weapon Fighting, using light weapons, one of which needs to be a Nick weapon.
First round: Bonus Action cast Hunter's Mark, Attack Action (2 attacks at 5th level), then off-hand attack using Nick property. Assume 18 dex just for giggles... that's d6 weapon +dex + d6 Hunter's Mark + d6 weapon +dex + d6 Hunter's Mark + d6 weapon +dex + d6 Hunter's Mark + d8 Collosal Slayer (once the enemy is hurt) for a total of 6d6+12+1d8 damage on first round.
Second round: Continue concentrating on Hunter's Mark, now take 2 attacks + off-hand attack of Light weapon using Nick as part of Attack action; then Bonus Action off-hand attack (don't forget to add Collosal Slayer in there too). For a total of 8d6+16+d8 damage per round without having rolled any crits.
And that's only 5th level. Granted it assumes everything hits and assumes concentration, but still that's a heck of a lot of damage for a 5th level martial.
And btw I tend to agree that better accuracy is better than higher damage. Fighting stuff with low ACs, yes the higher damage wins the day; but against foes that are hard to hit, the higher accuracy is FAR better. You can't miss fast enough to win a fight (as I used to tell my students). I'll always go with higher accuracy, yes it means I might do a little less damage against the stuff that's easy to hit (so what, it is easy to hit); while helping to ensure that I get to actually hit the really hard stuff too (instead of missing with every attack while praying for a crit).
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
Or divine smite every round for higher dpr.
At least Divine Smite uses spell slots, Hunter's Mark uses ONE spell slot for the entire fight (potentially). I don't have a problem with smite, it can only be used once per round, and a Paladin that smites on every round (every hit in 2014 rules) will quickly run out of spell slots then spend the rest of the day regretting it.
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
If Hunter's Mark didn't require spell slots and was just a 1d6 once per turn, then it would not need to require concentration. HM sits in an interesting design space. It is too strong to not require concentration, but not strong enough to merit burning your concentration at high levels. The current version is OK. Rangers are very powerful levels 1-4 because of HM, but I am not sure that is really that important.
As I read this- most of the HM focus and discussion is on its damage.
so lets suggest an idea that puts it to rest-
rangers should have a separate concentration spell that is just for combat. Vs hunters mark which has some combat application, especially at low levels, but its greatest use is for out of combat tracking. (It’s basically like a spy/heist movie where you place a GPS on an unsuspecting target).
rangers at higher levels should have a concentration spell that enhances damage on a scaled level to the Ranger. Maybe even. Adds +1 to hit and 1d8/10 whatever, and as it scales the to hit and damage go up.
Blank
I usually try to limit house rules at my table. 2024 is the best balance D&D version ever, but as said in my original post, Rogues and Rangers are actually view as the last tier characters option. I don't think you can do a great "pure'' rogue with that version of D&D, but i think you can do great if not OP rangers with some build route. I gave 3 good options in the intro. And btw, it's really cool to have a beast and do great DPS :). For the application of hunters mark, i m really ok that s it s integrate in the build. metamagic, ki points, rages, shapeshift... Many class have a defining trait, and i m ok with hunters mark, that can be use for damage, tracking, and great info if you are hunter... Ok, it s just weird that s so many others spells require concentration, but you don t have many spells slot till tier 3 so it s easy to use spells on utility outside combat were you have some of the bests in the game (pass without trace still really good even with nerf to Stealth). As said before, removing concentration on hm before tier 3 will transform the ranger in a God at tier 1 and 2, so removing it at level 13 and maybe also make hm a free action, is a good timing to make rangers shine again till late carreer.
The 2024 Ranger is fine if you still go DEX. Dual-wielding and ranged rangers are both solid options, though they're not without their pain points. Level 13 should probably just make Hunter's Mark lose concentration, or at least let you move it to a new target as a free action. I'd also personally like Roving to let Rangers ignore non-magical difficult terrain to give Rangers a small, situational niche as scouts. I'd also maybe give Rangers Constitution Proficiency as a part of Tireless so they have some built-in protection for their high-level concentration spells. Plus, it's thematic to the Tireless feature, making rangers better at enduring the elements.
Unfortunately, the Strength-based Rangers would need something bigger to make them a decent option again. Too many things scale off WIS now, and you lose a whole feature if you go for heavy armor. An alternate method of calculating AC would probably be best. Maybe rangers can choose between DEX or CON to scale their AC. DEX Rangers would favor Light Armor and STRangers would favor Medium Armor in that case.
With these changes 2024 Ranger would be pretty close to perfect for me, I think.
Hunter's Mark should be a class feature, not a spell. As a class feature, it should not require concentration. And to clean up action economy, it should be a free action to apply its effects, upon hitting a target with a weapon attack or unarmed attack. Once applied to a target, it would last for one minute or until that creature dies. The feature would allow a certain number of Hunter's Marks, and they would increase with Ranger level. Probably around 2 to begin with, and increasing to 3 at level 5, 4 at level 11, and 5 at level 17 (keeping the use quantity increases concurrent with the damage scaling). All uses replenish upon completing a short or long rest. If the Ranger is out of uses of Hunter's Mark, they can use a spell slot of any level to initiate it.
The tracking aspect of the current spell could be replicated as a separate class feature, perhaps giving the Ranger the option to roll any Skill check or Tool in which they have Proficiency with Advantage a number of times per short rest equal to their number of Hunter's Mark uses.
Because it does not require concentration (and therefore cannot be counterspelled or dispelled), it should only be applicable once per turn. Its damage can scale, similar to how cantrip damage scales: 1d6 at lvl 1, 2d6 at lvl 5, 3d6 at lvl 11, and 4d6 at lvl 17. The once per turn mechanic makes it more broadly applicable for different fighting styles, which gives players more ways to choose to play their Ranger, without feeling like they have to choose certain styles for optimizing. Because of this, Rangers should have access to more fighting style choices at level 2. We should add Great Weapon Fighting, Thrown Weapon, Unarmed, and Dueling, at least.
The feature's damage would stack upon the damage of any spell. However, any area of effect spell- or spell that affects more than one target- could have the Mark's damage applied to only the creature that is currently marked. I don't think this would be out of balance when compared to the single round, single target damage capabilities of the Paladin or Rogue, for example.
As a separate issue, I'd like to see the Great Weapon Master feat be amended so that players can choose Strength or Dexterity (and maybe Constitution?) so that it would be a viable option for Longbow users. Otherwise, there should be some kind of feat that gives a damage boost for those who choose to focus upon ranged weapons, in line with the Great Weapon Master feat. I agree that melee fighters needed to be made more viable, but I think in boosting melee and nerfing ranged, they perhaps went too far in nerfing Ranged. At any rate, melee options are way more attractive (as far as single target damage optimization goes) in the 2024 rules. I understand that using ranged weapons grants a defensive positioning advantage (sometimes), but I think in a lot of cases, battle environments- like indoor rooms and smaller-sized caves, etc- render such positioning advantages relatively moot.
I prefer this change to Hunter's Mark:
Leave it as is, but nerf the damage so it can be applied only once per turn, not on every hit.
No, i'm not kidding. Applying that damage on every hit against that target for up to an hour is ridiculous.
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
Rangers are awesome but they are not a good DPS class, especially at high level, and Hunter's Mark sucks. Making HM non-concentration at level 13 is not going to help, because if you are basing your play style on a 1st level spell at 13th level you are not going to hold up well.
Great single class Ranger is a Dragonborn Fey Wanderer. You want to be the best Face in the party, while being a great controller. DPS is ok, but that is not your thing after level 7. Start with S8 D16 C12 W17 I8 CH13. Get Deception and Initimidation on a background.
Get Magic Initiate (Wizard) on Wisdom, pick up Shield, Truestrike and Friends. Go with Blind Fighting for your fighting style. Use a Heavy Crossbow and Versatile Longsword with Sap using Truestrike for your primary weapons. You can pick up some Daggers to throw with nick when you are using Hunter's Mark ... but damage isn't really your thing. You are ok in tier 1 because Rangers are generally really good here.
Level 2 take expertise in Intimidation.
Level 3 pick up persuasion. At this point you have a +6 Persuasion and Deception and a +8 Initmidation and we are still in tier 1!
At level 4 grab Shadow Touched with Wrathful Smite and boost Wisdom to 18
At level 7 Beguiling Twist!!! Stop using your crossbow, grab a shield, change out the shield spell for Cause Fear, get a thrown weapon for your primary ranged attack (I like Javelins and Tridents)
Level 8 get the Dragonfear Feat on Charisma
Level 9 Expertise in Deception and Persuasion, now you are rocking +14 in the 3 main charisma skills
Level 11 Fey Reinforcements!!! People talk about concentration free HM, this is a real spell to have concentration free, Mirthful Fey running around charming people every turn and you twisting it into frightened.
Level 12 boost Wisdom to 20. Now you have a +15 Deception, Persuasion and Initimidation and your +7 Performance without any training is not too shabby.
This character rocks really grdinding with frightened and charmed effects with an Army of Fey. Ideally try to pick up pipes of Haunting or a Wand of Fear somewhere.
This character is an awesome controller all by herself, but it gets even better if your party Wizard or Paladin gets into the spirit and start throwing charm or fear spells of their own.
Agree with all your points. Rangers are just fun to play in all facets of the game. Don't sleep on speak with plants though. Our party was escourting a queen for a King we were mercinaries for. I heard very faint noses like twigs breaking. Cast speak with plants and the trees told me where the assasins hunting us were. Plants can be great allies if used.
Amen !