I like the Gloom Stalker/Shadow Monk combo. Lots of good synergies for a melee build. I have a dwarven tunnel rat concept that I would like to try out one day.
I wonder if the OP ever ended up playing out his concept?
A few people kind of hit the nail on the head. Do this Combo for the Fun. Not for the Power Optimization. Because when it comes to power Optimization things just start to fall down between them because of level dependencies. Many people don't see it but Rangers, like Monks, benefit more the more levels you put into them. Because between Spells that you gain, Different abilities you gain from things like your subclass, and etc. Rangers are gaining things quite regularly that can be taken advantage of. Ranger are in some ways the ranged and spellcastery counter part to monks. The more you get adaptable to play with them and everything they have the stronger they get.
I can’t really speak to 5e monk ranger as I haven’t played it out yet but I have plans to. My original monk ranger was a 1e/AD&D switch class but it was a hell of a character. Showed up curtesy of an annoyed DM at the back of a pack of orcs attacking the regular characters and managed to survive with nothing but the clothes on its back and a buck knife in its hip pocket. Played well and creatively they are awesome.
If you mean Monk 16+/Ranger 4-, Ranger's in competition with Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, and Druid - and if you mean Ranger 16+/Monk 4-, Monk's in competition with those same 4.
For Ranger 16+/Monk 4-, I think the best thing you can do with the Monk levels is grab Astral Self 3-4 - you should have enough Ki points to have your Arms up every fight, letting you lean into Wisdom. You'll have something very like a whip that swings with wisdom (it deals force damage, which is better, but only has reach during your turn, which can be better or worse for OAs), and you'll be very good at shoving targets - the Arms let you use Wisdom, Ranger lets you have expertise in Athletics, and Fey Touched will give you Hex if you want to lean into this even harder. You can use the Druidic Warrior fighting style to have Create Bonfire on tap to supplement other Shove hazards, like Spike Growth. Since manifesting the arms consumes your bonus action, Gloom Stalker or Swarmkeeper would be the go-to Ranger subclasses I'd look at.
For Monk 16+/Ranger 4-, it's a bit more challenging to come up with something compelling, because there aren't any Ranger subclasses that ship with ways to really spike the utility of a small number of L1 spell slots for the entire day, and only taking Ranger 1 doesn't do much compared to Fighter 1 or Rogue 1, depending on what you have in mind. Another issue is action economy - both the Martial Arts and Flurry of Blows bonus attack(s) require the Attack action, so most spells will shut them down. Ki-fueled attack works with any action, though. What I would do is extend the idea - take enough Ranger to generate spell slots, and pick up a third class for making those slots do more work - Cleric is the low-hanging fruit there. Options include Life Cleric for Goodberry shenanigans, Twilight for using your slots to hand out Darkvision to the party, and an option that is heavily dependent on how your DM interprets the word salad that is the L1 Order Cleric ability. If "after the spell" means after the spell ends, Order Cleric will make Absorb Elements do a lot of work, since you react before your turn to cast it, and then react on your turn to swing again. If "after the spell" means after the spell is cast, there are still many ways to use it, but it has less synergy with Monk.
Melee is likely a strong choice. High AC, more attacks, even more tactical options. All with a minimal multiclass investment (as little as a two level dip). Getting one or the other to level 5 quick for extra attack is key, IMO.
Monk is all short rest. Ranger is all long rest. Just like paladin and warlock, it’s a friendly combination. Tasha’s has only strengthened that relationship.
Monk/ranger can be both awesome and fun BUT a lot of this discussion looks at them at middle and upper levels when the hardest time to survive is the first five levels when HP are low, damages are (relatively) high and chances to hit are low. This may also be the range where multiclass ING gives the most bang for your buck with the monk +ranger multiclasses. Let’s see what you get: I’m going to use a straight human point buy: S 13 (+1), D 16 (+3), C 14 (+2), I 10 (+0), W 15 (+2), Ch 9 (-1)
Monk L1: 10 HP, AC 15 ( Unarmored Defense), simple weapons & short swords, 1 set of tools or a musical instrument, Str & Dex saves, 2 skills, Martial Arts 1D4+ DB unarmed attack + a bonus attack for 1D4.
Ranger L1: 12 HP, AC 18 (scale + shield 2 pts of Dex), simple and martial weapons, no tools, Str + Dex saves, 3 skills, a favored enemy, and a natural terrain, he gets 1 attack for 1D6+1 (short sword + Str Bonus) and a possible Bonus Action Attack for 1D6.
Over all at level 1 I’m taking the Ranger because it gives me a better AC, better HPs & better damage. Now I might well take Monk first because of my backstory as it’s easier to explain why a monk becomes a ranger than why a ranger enters a monastery to become a Monk, but on stats only you have to take Ranger.
Ok what about level 2? So you’ve accumulated 300 EXP do you take another level of Monk or Ranger or do take level 1 of the other? Adding L1 Monk to ranger: +7 HP, simple weapons & short swords ( which you already have), Unarmed Defense (but you already have a better AC), Martial Arts - ok this is at least possibly Useful.
Adding L1 Ranger to Monk: +8 HP, light armor, medium armor, shields (AC18), martial weapons (1D8-12), 1 ranger skill. Actually useful - especially for a ninja style build.
L2 Monk: Ki points (2), + 10’ movement, Flurry of Blows/patient Defense/step of the Wind (2 times between the 3actions), +7 HP
L2 Ranger: Fighting Style ( this would be a bigger add for multiclassing with Monk if you could take unarmed fighting from TCoE Fighter), Spell casting (2L1spells really have to be CW (1D8+2) & HM (+1D6 damage vs marked foe each attack)), +8HP
if I’m starting as a monk I can see why I might take Ranger 1 as my second level but I’m probably better off taking Monk 2. If I started as a ranger I have trouble seeing why I would take monk 1 except for character development reasons.
Level 3: If we add monk or ranger here we have the same gets as above so I’m just looking at the class benefits.
Monk 3: +7HP, Deflect missiles (1D10+6 damage avoided), Monastic tradition (benefits here are so variable I’m not going to try to list each possibility)
Ranger 3: +8HP, Primeval/Primal Awareness, Ranger Archtype (Again to variable to recount)
frankly I don’t see any reason to switch my class here.
Level 4: in either class you get your first ASI which means you really don’t want to switch here. In addition you get:
Monk 4: +7 HP, Slow Fall or Ranger 4: +8HP, Martial versatility if you use Tasha’s, nothing if you don’t.
Levels 5-8: your getting something useful for that class at each level making switching a mater of looking at what you lose/postpone a level in one class vs what you gain from the next level of the second class - back history, storyline and concept are going to be big factors in decisions. L9: Ranger gets nothing, monk gets something every level. Finally a place where a switch in class makes sense from ranger to monk.
Personally if making a ranger/monk or monk/ranger I would go monk 1-3 then ranger for 3 levels and then either back to Monk for the next 14 levels or stay ranger for 14 levels. Both classes are very level dependent so you don’t get as much benefit from alternating and keeping them close to each other. Your never going to have a lot of Ki as a monk or higher levels as well as numbers of spells as a ranger.
for back stories keep in mind that realistically monks/martial artists don’t just come from monastery backgrounds.
if your only going to take 3 levels of monk you may want to seriously try to talk your DM into letting you take the Unarmed Combat Style of the fighter as a house rule. Or going variant human and using your feat for martial initiate - unarmed combat style and then just going ranger all the way. If the movement is really important to you take the longstrider spell.
Monk/ranger can be both awesome and fun BUT a lot of this discussion looks at them at middle and upper levels when the hardest time to survive is the first five levels when HP are low, damages are (relatively) high and chances to hit are low. This may also be the range where multiclass ING gives the most bang for your buck with the monk +ranger multiclasses. Let’s see what you get: I’m going to use a straight human point buy: S 13 (+1), D 16 (+3), C 14 (+2), I 10 (+0), W 15 (+2), Ch 9 (-1)
Monk L1: 10 HP, AC 15 ( Unarmored Defense), simple weapons & short swords, 1 set of tools or a musical instrument, Str & Dex saves, 2 skills, Martial Arts 1D4+ DB unarmed attack + a bonus attack for 1D4.
Ranger L1: 12 HP, AC 18 (scale + shield 2 pts of Dex), simple and martial weapons, no tools, Str + Dex saves, 3 skills, a favored enemy, and a natural terrain, he gets 1 attack for 1D6+1 (short sword + Str Bonus) and a possible Bonus Action Attack for 1D6.
Over all at level 1 I’m taking the Ranger because it gives me a better AC, better HPs & better damage. Now I might well take Monk first because of my backstory as it’s easier to explain why a monk becomes a ranger than why a ranger enters a monastery to become a Monk, but on stats only you have to take Ranger.
Ok what about level 2? So you’ve accumulated 300 EXP do you take another level of Monk or Ranger or do take level 1 of the other? Adding L1 Monk to ranger: +7 HP, simple weapons & short swords ( which you already have), Unarmed Defense (but you already have a better AC), Martial Arts - ok this is at least possibly Useful.
Adding L1 Ranger to Monk: +8 HP, light armor, medium armor, shields (AC18), martial weapons (1D8-12), 1 ranger skill. Actually useful - especially for a ninja style build.
L2 Monk: Ki points (2), + 10’ movement, Flurry of Blows/patient Defense/step of the Wind (2 times between the 3actions), +7 HP
L2 Ranger: Fighting Style ( this would be a bigger add for multiclassing with Monk if you could take unarmed fighting from TCoE Fighter), Spell casting (2L1spells really have to be CW (1D8+2) & HM (+1D6 damage vs marked foe each attack)), +8HP
if I’m starting as a monk I can see why I might take Ranger 1 as my second level but I’m probably better off taking Monk 2. If I started as a ranger I have trouble seeing why I would take monk 1 except for character development reasons.
Level 3: If we add monk or ranger here we have the same gets as above so I’m just looking at the class benefits.
Monk 3: +7HP, Deflect missiles (1D10+6 damage avoided), Monastic tradition (benefits here are so variable I’m not going to try to list each possibility)
Ranger 3: +8HP, Primeval/Primal Awareness, Ranger Archtype (Again to variable to recount)
frankly I don’t see any reason to switch my class here.
Level 4: ok DDB does something wrong here I think - you don’t get your ASI/Feat at level 4 in a class, you get it at Level 4 as a character so you should be getting it here whether you switch class or not. So what do you get at level 4?
Monk 4: +7 HP, Slow Fall
Ranger 4: +8HP, Martial versatility if you use Tasha’s, nothing if you don’t. Finally a place where a switch in class makes sense in either direction. Personally if making a ranger/monk or monk/ranger I would go monk 1-3 then ranger for 3 levels and then either back to Monk for the next 14 levels or stay ranger for 14 levels. Both classes are very level dependent so you don’t get as much benefit from alternating and keeping them close to each other. Your never going to have a lot of Ki as a monk or higher level as well as numbers of spells as a ranger.
for back stories keep in mind that realistically monks/martial artists don’t just come from monastery backgrounds.
if your only going to take 3 levels of monk you may want to seriously try to talk your DM into letting you take the Unarmed Combat Style of the fighter as a house rule.
Nice analysis. One thing to point out, at monk 1 they can do 1d8+DEX with quarterstaff and BA 1d4+DEX. But other than that it’s good. To me it seems like starting out levels 1-5 Monk then Multiclassing would be best before Ranger. But you are right with this leading to mid levels before it comes online. Not sure how good a monk dip would be for Ranger as martial arts doesn’t work with armor so you could go unarmored defense but armor would give better AC but your unarmed attacks are just 1+STR.
What I didn’t include because you really can’t due to the near infinite possibilities is magic items. If you use your ASIs to raise your Dex and Wis and get bracers a ring of protection and a cloak of protection (or better displacement) you can get to AC 20 without armor. Which means the it does have uses as getting that high with armour mules out your Dex bonus. That 1+STR is why I suggested the unarmed fighting style. (Fighting Initiate feat from Tasha’s). Realistically as I said in a different thread if your going to want to get your DM to let you roll a few times and take your best rolls that is really the only way to have decent starting scores for multiclassing. But yes, I don’t really see many reasons for a ranger to multiclass into a monk. Perhaps the best is actually the ninja clone - trained initially as a nature warrior by your clan then they add in martial arts training to their top rangers to create the clan ninjas. Of course the reality was that everyone in the clan learned the martial arts from childhood and the weapons and nature training as well. So it’s really alternating classes to L6 before choosing one to stay in.
you are right about the damage at level 1 with the quarter staff but a ranger could get a long sword and wield it two haded for 1D10 + Str or dual wield for 1D8 + Str and a bonus attack for 1D6 so he is still a bit better oar even.
Yeah, a ways back I had a thread about a Monk/Hunter Ranger MC that I thought might be nice. Start as monk and Ranger to level 3 for colossus slayer for the extra d8 damage once per turn if they are not at max HP. But I really couldn’t see going more than 3 levels of Ranger and rest monk. Gloom stalker would work as well I think. If race doesn’t give you weapon proficiencies then Ranger does. And now with Tasha’s you can use the a versatile d8/d10 weapon with dedicated weapon.
I still think a Ranger can be a good dip but not much advantage to dipping monk on a Ranger
Something to note. DDB is not wrong. ASI's are not character level based. They are entirely class level based. DDB did not have a problem when it did not let you assign an ASI at level 4 on your character when you had not reached level 4 in a specific class.
ASI's are completely driven by your classes with different Classes getting different numbers of them in 5th Edition. This is a major switchup from Things like 3.5/PF and Star Finder where it is independant of class and something your character gets no matter what.
This means that in 5th edition it's actually possible to get ASI's in two consecutive levels if you do your multiclassing in particular ways. Such as bouncing back and forth and going up in levels in two different classes repeatedly so that You get level 4 in one class at character level 7 and level 4 in the other class at character level 8 for example.
Another thing to note. While a Ranger can naturally wield a longsword two handed to get 1d10. It does not naturally mix with Martial Arts. So the Monk with the Staff and Martial Arts is actually doing more damage than when using a long sword. The only way to change htis is to find a way to make the Longsword a monk weapon so you can wield it and get the benefit of Martial arts.
Great discussion. I appreciate W1ldB1ll pointing out the value of the order of dips, because if the timing is wrong, it can be a real slog.
I'm currently running a Tabaxi Ranger (Level 5 Gloom Stalker - Archer) with a level 2 Rogue. The Ranger class came first to level 5, then the Rogue (mostly because of who he was hanging out with.)
Because the DM let us roll character creation, I ended up with pretty awesome stats in Dex and Wis that built to 19 & 18 by character level 7 but it could be common to be close with focusing on Dex and Wis for normal character generation. Combine that with Sharpshooter as a feat, and I have a bunch of fun with sneak attacks and bonus action dashing to snipe at range. I'm considering staying with Rogue until level 4 (maybe Assassin?) to get the ASI.
My party has a monk in it, and my character is hanging out with him. I'm considering a 1 or 2 level monk dip just for Unarmored Defense (base AC to 18 or 19?!) and maybe 2 for Unarmored Movement.
Side note: Feline agility combined with Zephyr Strike, bonus action Dash and Unarmored Movement would be AWESOME! Currently, if I have Zephyr Strike active at the start of combat (i.e. we knew it was coming) in the first round I can:
1. Make 1 attack with Advantage (Zephyr Strke) 2. Make 2 more attacks (Dread Ambusher for the 3rd +1D8 to one) 3. Move 40' initially before attacking at least once to trigger the Zephyr Strike bonus of +40. 4. Use Feline Agility to double the 40+40 for a total of 160' of WALKING speed. 5. Use the Rogue bonus action Dash to move another 160' for a total of 320'
So, done properly with a little prep prior to the first round, my character gets three attacks (one at advantage and that one also gets sneak attack) and 320' of movement. All of the attacks have longbow range of 600' without any long range penalty (Sharpshooter) and no penalty to partial cover (Sharpshooter). It may be a bit OP, but the role playing is a bunch of fun, too (it's a bird? it's a plane? which way did he go?!)
Spell slots and Ki point caps aside, I'm not sure we will actually reach character level 20 with our party (milestone promotion) and the middle levels of Rogue and Ranger are both meh. Anyone see any significant disadvantage to a 1 or 2 level Monk dip?
I am looking to do a Ranger/Monk as an Aiel from Wheel of Time. I chose Outlander because the Aiel live tribally in the Waste. I got Acrobatics and Stealth from monk. I like the no armor, increased speed and using a spear as a monk weapon. Very in character. Two levels monk would be max as I don't want the mysticism of monk with this character, though a little ki won't be too bad. I thought about fighter from there on out but the Aiel are very adaptable in nature and all essentially have trackless step. I think I am going ranger here with the duelist fighting style. A spear in one hand, 3 more ready to draw and throw and a shortbow on my back and I am all set. Not sure which skill to pick multiclassing into ranger though. Also I am going to have to be very selective with the spells that I pick, taking those that would be least "magical" and in character for a survivalist type. If anyone has suggestions please let me know. I only have the Player's Handbook at the moment so if you reference another book, please tell me which one. Thanks!
Several things: 1) since all you have is the PHB I’ll stick to that for advice, but you really want to add Xanthers and Tasha’s for all the other subclasses, spells and options. 2) most ranger spells aren’t very flashy so I wouldn’t worry too much about them being “magical” - the two best to start with are hunters mark for the extra damage and either goodberry or cure wounds to provide some healing of the two goodberry may be your better choice for not looking magical. 3) while the monk unarmed defense is nice realize that you are going to be AC 14/15 that way vs 15/16 with studded leather/scale and 17/18 if you add a shield. If it fits better with your concept unarmored then by all means do so but realize you could do the same unarmored with a shield and Dex too (but yes you miss the extra movement but it can be recovered for an hour with the longstrider spell). 4) yes you can throw a spear but the proper throwing weapon there is the javelin. Keep the spear as a thrusting melee weapon. That leads to the question of why both the javelins/spears and short bow? Is this the standard ail armament? This also raises the question of whether your going to be a melee or missile ranger? If missile talk to your DM about a homebrew bow - the composite bow it is a short bow with horn and sinew additions that give it the range and damage of a long bow and can be used (easily) when mounted. If melee you may want to rethink the AC from #3. You may also want a bladed weapon besides the dagger. Either a scimitar or longsword (reskinned as a large scimitar if you want). 5) you got survival from outlander, acrobatics and stealth from the monk so the ranger skill should be nature you need it for the PHB ranger abilities that draw on it or survival. 6) favored enemy will come from your discussions with the DM and what is suitable for their world, from what you’ve said the natural explorer terrain should be desert. if you get the other books there are lots of other subclasses you could look at but hunter might still be one of the better ones - you might want to go straight ranger with the variant human level 1 feat of martial initiate allowing you to take the barehand fighting style to start then picking up a second style at R2.
well, if you start with Dex and Wis at 16 you will have AC of 16 (+3 Dex, +3 wis) and rangers use both of those stats as well. So as you increase those your AC will go higher. If you get 20 in both scores, that’s 20AC no armor.
the Hunter Ranger might be a good pick since you want to keep away from mysticism and magic for the Aiel feel. Plus it’s PHB I believe so that helps. gloom stalker might be another good choice but it is more magical feeling.
But remember, just because you can cast spells doesn’t mean you can’t flavor those spells as natural attacks. Spells like zephyr strike (xanathars), and absorb elements (elemental evil players companion) can be flavored as “not magical” even hail of thorns flavored as multiple spear throws. But check with your DM first to make sure they are cool with it.
Yes if you start with 16s in both Dex and wis you start better and getting to 20/20 is easier but it still takes 4 ASIs to get there so yes by L16 your AC 20 without armour. Now try getting there with standard array or a point buy that does nuke 2 other stats to get that 16/16 start.. that is why I recommend talking to the dm and seeing if you can do a couple of rolls and use the best for a planned MC. I was sticking to PHB because he said it was all he had although I did recommend Tasha’s and Xanther’s. For all that folks love to see what they can do with the latest subclasses the PHB hunter is actually a very good ranger subclass.
Since a big theme for this build is recreating the Aiel culture..... I would remind you to look at the DMG section on poisons. Basically if you can beat a 20 on nature or Poisoners kit you can harvest a dose of poison from any dead or sleeping poisonous creature. however, getting lower than a 15 means you damage yourself. Most dms I have played with allow Favored enemies to count for harvesting poison. the advantage really helps. FYI---- W.O.T is where i first learned about "milking lizards".
so I would probably take Favored enemy beasts first. for scorpions and lizards and snakes. the second favored enemy would probably be open but I would lean towards one of the following :2 humaniod groups, Fiends, monstrosities or aberrations.
Darkvison and/or "pass without a trace" are good "Aiel" spells (assuming you don't get darkvison via some subclass.)
I can see javelin as the thrown weapon. The Aiel shun armor so I really don't want to go that route but they often have bucklers/small shields along with short spears and a shortbow (standard Aiel complement). I do recognize that shortbows and spears have some redundant overlap, but I haven't played since 3.5 and want to get a feel for the character before making extreme changes. In no way can this character have any type of sword. I have a feeling I will end up with a 16AC from Dex and Wis, anything else will have to come in the form of magic items (ter'angreal). I saw the Gloom variant and I think Hunter will fit a little better. Perception will be the skill that I get multiclassing into Ranger. I do like the idea of milking lizards lol, beasts and humanoids will most likely be how I will go, though undead has some in-character fit too if I fight against ghouls/ghasts (samma n'sei). I have considered getting Mobile with my human feat and only going 1 lvl of Monk for the unarmored defense and fighting.
Thanks for the advice. I will look into the other books to see if something else jumps out at me.
Yes if you start with 16s in both Dex and wis you start better and getting to 20/20 is easier but it still takes 4 ASIs to get there so yes by L16 your AC 20 without armour. Now try getting there with standard array or a point buy that does nuke 2 other stats to get that 16/16 start.. that is why I recommend talking to the dm and seeing if you can do a couple of rolls and use the best for a planned MC. I was sticking to PHB because he said it was all he had although I did recommend Tasha’s and Xanther’s. For all that folks love to see what they can do with the latest subclasses the PHB hunter is actually a very good ranger subclass.
Not everyone uses rolled stats so I didn’t include that. If you can, go for it. But you might not always get better. I have a Druid with 4 CHA I’m playing. Other stats decent with one good roll that I put in Wisdom.
If going vHuman and standard array you could have 15 Dex and 14 Wis and put both +1’s in those, or reverse the scores. And maybe your feat a half feat to get the second score to 16. Standard array isn’t so bad. If you go with a different race that gives +2/+1 then it’s basically the same but no feat. Either way 16 in both.
At this point, I’m not sure monk gives you much if you wear armor. You could just as well go Barbarian and focus on Dex and con for AC and shield (since Aiel use shields and no armor that I recall). Wearing armor you lose the ability to use Dex for your spear melee attacks so you are back to STR do attacks which works with rage, which can tie into their fierceness in battle.
Agreed, I don’t know the Aiel so I was going from what the OP was saying. If they use a shield and no other armor then barbarian might well be a good choice for MC. It’s more MAD than monk due to the con vs wis benefit tho. However, since the OP was going “non magical” on the ranger spells that might work- 15D/14C/13W with a focus on personal use spells so saves are not a major issue. As with the monk (and sticking strictly to PHB since it’s all the OP has); the barbarian/ranger MC has the problem of where to stop the first class and pick up the second. Barbarian gets something every level and ranger gets something every level until L9. I would probably go barbarian 2/ranger 5 and then decide if I wanted to return to barbarian for a few levels or continue with ranger til I finish level 10 (B2/R8) then get at least 2 more barbarian levels. A lot also depends on whether the character is a melee or missile type. For barb/ranger and skills If you go variant human and outlander you could do: VH: perception, OUt.: athletics & survival, Barb: nature & intimidation/animal handling, Rang: stealth (or something else).
for the OP - book to get : Tasha’s it has the most bang for the bucks. In addition to the variant rules for classes it has the fighting initiate feat allowing you to get a second fighting style from the fighter list and it has the new fighter styles including unarmed and thrown weapons as well as a couple of subclasses for each class.
here is an example using Tasha’s: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sheet-pdfs/wcwilson82355_61292749.pdf A straight PHB version would replace the variant human feat with Alertness, the ranger fighting style with dueling and the deft explorer and favored foe features with 2 favored foes and the 2 terrain types one of which should be desert.
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I like the Gloom Stalker/Shadow Monk combo. Lots of good synergies for a melee build. I have a dwarven tunnel rat concept that I would like to try out one day.
I wonder if the OP ever ended up playing out his concept?
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A few people kind of hit the nail on the head. Do this Combo for the Fun. Not for the Power Optimization. Because when it comes to power Optimization things just start to fall down between them because of level dependencies. Many people don't see it but Rangers, like Monks, benefit more the more levels you put into them. Because between Spells that you gain, Different abilities you gain from things like your subclass, and etc. Rangers are gaining things quite regularly that can be taken advantage of. Ranger are in some ways the ranged and spellcastery counter part to monks. The more you get adaptable to play with them and everything they have the stronger they get.
I can’t really speak to 5e monk ranger as I haven’t played it out yet but I have plans to. My original monk ranger was a 1e/AD&D switch class but it was a hell of a character. Showed up curtesy of an annoyed DM at the back of a pack of orcs attacking the regular characters and managed to survive with nothing but the clothes on its back and a buck knife in its hip pocket. Played well and creatively they are awesome.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
If you mean Monk 16+/Ranger 4-, Ranger's in competition with Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, and Druid - and if you mean Ranger 16+/Monk 4-, Monk's in competition with those same 4.
For Ranger 16+/Monk 4-, I think the best thing you can do with the Monk levels is grab Astral Self 3-4 - you should have enough Ki points to have your Arms up every fight, letting you lean into Wisdom. You'll have something very like a whip that swings with wisdom (it deals force damage, which is better, but only has reach during your turn, which can be better or worse for OAs), and you'll be very good at shoving targets - the Arms let you use Wisdom, Ranger lets you have expertise in Athletics, and Fey Touched will give you Hex if you want to lean into this even harder. You can use the Druidic Warrior fighting style to have Create Bonfire on tap to supplement other Shove hazards, like Spike Growth. Since manifesting the arms consumes your bonus action, Gloom Stalker or Swarmkeeper would be the go-to Ranger subclasses I'd look at.
For Monk 16+/Ranger 4-, it's a bit more challenging to come up with something compelling, because there aren't any Ranger subclasses that ship with ways to really spike the utility of a small number of L1 spell slots for the entire day, and only taking Ranger 1 doesn't do much compared to Fighter 1 or Rogue 1, depending on what you have in mind. Another issue is action economy - both the Martial Arts and Flurry of Blows bonus attack(s) require the Attack action, so most spells will shut them down. Ki-fueled attack works with any action, though. What I would do is extend the idea - take enough Ranger to generate spell slots, and pick up a third class for making those slots do more work - Cleric is the low-hanging fruit there. Options include Life Cleric for Goodberry shenanigans, Twilight for using your slots to hand out Darkvision to the party, and an option that is heavily dependent on how your DM interprets the word salad that is the L1 Order Cleric ability. If "after the spell" means after the spell ends, Order Cleric will make Absorb Elements do a lot of work, since you react before your turn to cast it, and then react on your turn to swing again. If "after the spell" means after the spell is cast, there are still many ways to use it, but it has less synergy with Monk.
Ranger and monk is a great combination!
Melee is likely a strong choice. High AC, more attacks, even more tactical options. All with a minimal multiclass investment (as little as a two level dip). Getting one or the other to level 5 quick for extra attack is key, IMO.
Monk is all short rest. Ranger is all long rest. Just like paladin and warlock, it’s a friendly combination. Tasha’s has only strengthened that relationship.
Monk/ranger can be both awesome and fun BUT a lot of this discussion looks at them at middle and upper levels when the hardest time to survive is the first five levels when HP are low, damages are (relatively) high and chances to hit are low. This may also be the range where multiclass ING gives the most bang for your buck with the monk +ranger multiclasses. Let’s see what you get: I’m going to use a straight human point buy: S 13 (+1), D 16 (+3), C 14 (+2), I 10 (+0), W 15 (+2), Ch 9 (-1)
Monk L1: 10 HP, AC 15 ( Unarmored Defense), simple weapons & short swords, 1 set of tools or a musical instrument, Str & Dex saves, 2 skills, Martial Arts 1D4+ DB unarmed attack + a bonus attack for 1D4.
Ranger L1: 12 HP, AC 18 (scale + shield 2 pts of Dex), simple and martial weapons, no tools, Str + Dex saves, 3 skills, a favored enemy, and a natural terrain, he gets 1 attack for 1D6+1 (short sword + Str Bonus) and a possible Bonus Action Attack for 1D6.
Over all at level 1 I’m taking the Ranger because it gives me a better AC, better HPs & better damage. Now I might well take Monk first because of my backstory as it’s easier to explain why a monk becomes a ranger than why a ranger enters a monastery to become a Monk, but on stats only you have to take Ranger.
Ok what about level 2? So you’ve accumulated 300 EXP do you take another level of Monk or Ranger or do take level 1 of the other?
Adding L1 Monk to ranger: +7 HP, simple weapons & short swords ( which you already have), Unarmed Defense (but you already have a better AC), Martial Arts - ok this is at least possibly Useful.
Adding L1 Ranger to Monk: +8 HP, light armor, medium armor, shields (AC18), martial weapons (1D8-12), 1 ranger skill. Actually useful - especially for a ninja style build.
L2 Monk: Ki points (2), + 10’ movement, Flurry of Blows/patient Defense/step of the Wind (2 times between the 3actions), +7 HP
L2 Ranger: Fighting Style ( this would be a bigger add for multiclassing with Monk if you could take unarmed fighting from TCoE Fighter), Spell casting (2L1spells really have to be CW (1D8+2) & HM (+1D6 damage vs marked foe each attack)), +8HP
if I’m starting as a monk I can see why I might take Ranger 1 as my second level but I’m probably better off taking Monk 2. If I started as a ranger I have trouble seeing why I would take monk 1 except for character development reasons.
Level 3: If we add monk or ranger here we have the same gets as above so I’m just looking at the class benefits.
Monk 3: +7HP, Deflect missiles (1D10+6 damage avoided), Monastic tradition (benefits here are so variable I’m not going to try to list each possibility)
Ranger 3: +8HP, Primeval/Primal Awareness, Ranger Archtype (Again to variable to recount)
frankly I don’t see any reason to switch my class here.
Level 4: in either class you get your first ASI which means you really don’t want to switch here. In addition you get:
Monk 4: +7 HP, Slow Fall
or
Ranger 4: +8HP, Martial versatility if you use Tasha’s, nothing if you don’t.
Levels 5-8: your getting something useful for that class at each level making switching a mater of looking at what you lose/postpone a level in one class vs what you gain from the next level of the second class - back history, storyline and concept are going to be big factors in decisions.
L9: Ranger gets nothing, monk gets something every level. Finally a place where a switch in class makes sense from ranger to monk.
Personally if making a ranger/monk or monk/ranger I would go monk 1-3 then ranger for 3 levels and then either back to Monk for the next 14 levels or stay ranger for 14 levels. Both classes are very level dependent so you don’t get as much benefit from alternating and keeping them close to each other. Your never going to have a lot of Ki as a monk or higher levels as well as numbers of spells as a ranger.
for back stories keep in mind that realistically monks/martial artists don’t just come from monastery backgrounds.
if your only going to take 3 levels of monk you may want to seriously try to talk your DM into letting you take the Unarmed Combat Style of the fighter as a house rule. Or going variant human and using your feat for martial initiate - unarmed combat style and then just going ranger all the way. If the movement is really important to you take the longstrider spell.
edited 11/2/21 to correct mistakes at Level 4+
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Nice analysis. One thing to point out, at monk 1 they can do 1d8+DEX with quarterstaff and BA 1d4+DEX. But other than that it’s good. To me it seems like starting out levels 1-5 Monk then Multiclassing would be best before Ranger. But you are right with this leading to mid levels before it comes online. Not sure how good a monk dip would be for Ranger as martial arts doesn’t work with armor so you could go unarmored defense but armor would give better AC but your unarmed attacks are just 1+STR.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
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What I didn’t include because you really can’t due to the near infinite possibilities is magic items. If you use your ASIs to raise your Dex and Wis and get bracers a ring of protection and a cloak of protection (or better displacement) you can get to AC 20 without armor. Which means the it does have uses as getting that high with armour mules out your Dex bonus. That 1+STR is why I suggested the unarmed fighting style. (Fighting Initiate feat from Tasha’s). Realistically as I said in a different thread if your going to want to get your DM to let you roll a few times and take your best rolls that is really the only way to have decent starting scores for multiclassing. But yes, I don’t really see many reasons for a ranger to multiclass into a monk. Perhaps the best is actually the ninja clone - trained initially as a nature warrior by your clan then they add in martial arts training to their top rangers to create the clan ninjas. Of course the reality was that everyone in the clan learned the martial arts from childhood and the weapons and nature training as well. So it’s really alternating classes to L6 before choosing one to stay in.
you are right about the damage at level 1 with the quarter staff but a ranger could get a long sword and wield it two haded for 1D10 + Str or dual wield for 1D8 + Str and a bonus attack for 1D6 so he is still a bit better oar even.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Yeah, a ways back I had a thread about a Monk/Hunter Ranger MC that I thought might be nice. Start as monk and Ranger to level 3 for colossus slayer for the extra d8 damage once per turn if they are not at max HP. But I really couldn’t see going more than 3 levels of Ranger and rest monk. Gloom stalker would work as well I think. If race doesn’t give you weapon proficiencies then Ranger does. And now with Tasha’s you can use the a versatile d8/d10 weapon with dedicated weapon.
I still think a Ranger can be a good dip but not much advantage to dipping monk on a Ranger
EZD6 by DM Scotty
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Something to note. DDB is not wrong. ASI's are not character level based. They are entirely class level based. DDB did not have a problem when it did not let you assign an ASI at level 4 on your character when you had not reached level 4 in a specific class.
ASI's are completely driven by your classes with different Classes getting different numbers of them in 5th Edition. This is a major switchup from Things like 3.5/PF and Star Finder where it is independant of class and something your character gets no matter what.
This means that in 5th edition it's actually possible to get ASI's in two consecutive levels if you do your multiclassing in particular ways. Such as bouncing back and forth and going up in levels in two different classes repeatedly so that You get level 4 in one class at character level 7 and level 4 in the other class at character level 8 for example.
Another thing to note. While a Ranger can naturally wield a longsword two handed to get 1d10. It does not naturally mix with Martial Arts. So the Monk with the Staff and Martial Arts is actually doing more damage than when using a long sword. The only way to change htis is to find a way to make the Longsword a monk weapon so you can wield it and get the benefit of Martial arts.
Great discussion. I appreciate W1ldB1ll pointing out the value of the order of dips, because if the timing is wrong, it can be a real slog.
I'm currently running a Tabaxi Ranger (Level 5 Gloom Stalker - Archer) with a level 2 Rogue. The Ranger class came first to level 5, then the Rogue (mostly because of who he was hanging out with.)
Because the DM let us roll character creation, I ended up with pretty awesome stats in Dex and Wis that built to 19 & 18 by character level 7 but it could be common to be close with focusing on Dex and Wis for normal character generation. Combine that with Sharpshooter as a feat, and I have a bunch of fun with sneak attacks and bonus action dashing to snipe at range. I'm considering staying with Rogue until level 4 (maybe Assassin?) to get the ASI.
My party has a monk in it, and my character is hanging out with him. I'm considering a 1 or 2 level monk dip just for Unarmored Defense (base AC to 18 or 19?!) and maybe 2 for Unarmored Movement.
Side note: Feline agility combined with Zephyr Strike, bonus action Dash and Unarmored Movement would be AWESOME! Currently, if I have Zephyr Strike active at the start of combat (i.e. we knew it was coming) in the first round I can:
1. Make 1 attack with Advantage (Zephyr Strke)
2. Make 2 more attacks (Dread Ambusher for the 3rd +1D8 to one)
3. Move 40' initially before attacking at least once to trigger the Zephyr Strike bonus of +40.
4. Use Feline Agility to double the 40+40 for a total of 160' of WALKING speed.
5. Use the Rogue bonus action Dash to move another 160' for a total of 320'
So, done properly with a little prep prior to the first round, my character gets three attacks (one at advantage and that one also gets sneak attack) and 320' of movement. All of the attacks have longbow range of 600' without any long range penalty (Sharpshooter) and no penalty to partial cover (Sharpshooter). It may be a bit OP, but the role playing is a bunch of fun, too (it's a bird? it's a plane? which way did he go?!)
Spell slots and Ki point caps aside, I'm not sure we will actually reach character level 20 with our party (milestone promotion) and the middle levels of Rogue and Ranger are both meh. Anyone see any significant disadvantage to a 1 or 2 level Monk dip?
Zephyr Strike increases walking speed by 30 ft not 40 ft
I am looking to do a Ranger/Monk as an Aiel from Wheel of Time. I chose Outlander because the Aiel live tribally in the Waste. I got Acrobatics and Stealth from monk. I like the no armor, increased speed and using a spear as a monk weapon. Very in character. Two levels monk would be max as I don't want the mysticism of monk with this character, though a little ki won't be too bad. I thought about fighter from there on out but the Aiel are very adaptable in nature and all essentially have trackless step. I think I am going ranger here with the duelist fighting style. A spear in one hand, 3 more ready to draw and throw and a shortbow on my back and I am all set. Not sure which skill to pick multiclassing into ranger though. Also I am going to have to be very selective with the spells that I pick, taking those that would be least "magical" and in character for a survivalist type. If anyone has suggestions please let me know. I only have the Player's Handbook at the moment so if you reference another book, please tell me which one. Thanks!
Several things:
1) since all you have is the PHB I’ll stick to that for advice, but you really want to add Xanthers and Tasha’s for all the other subclasses, spells and options.
2) most ranger spells aren’t very flashy so I wouldn’t worry too much about them being “magical” - the two best to start with are hunters mark for the extra damage and either goodberry or cure wounds to provide some healing of the two goodberry may be your better choice for not looking magical.
3) while the monk unarmed defense is nice realize that you are going to be AC 14/15 that way vs 15/16 with studded leather/scale and 17/18 if you add a shield. If it fits better with your concept unarmored then by all means do so but realize you could do the same unarmored with a shield and Dex too (but yes you miss the extra movement but it can be recovered for an hour with the longstrider spell).
4) yes you can throw a spear but the proper throwing weapon there is the javelin. Keep the spear as a thrusting melee weapon. That leads to the question of why both the javelins/spears and short bow? Is this the standard ail armament? This also raises the question of whether your going to be a melee or missile ranger? If missile talk to your DM about a homebrew bow - the composite bow it is a short bow with horn and sinew additions that give it the range and damage of a long bow and can be used (easily) when mounted. If melee you may want to rethink the AC from #3. You may also want a bladed weapon besides the dagger. Either a scimitar or longsword (reskinned as a large scimitar if you want).
5) you got survival from outlander, acrobatics and stealth from the monk so the ranger skill should be nature you need it for the PHB ranger abilities that draw on it or survival.
6) favored enemy will come from your discussions with the DM and what is suitable for their world, from what you’ve said the natural explorer terrain should be desert.
if you get the other books there are lots of other subclasses you could look at but hunter might still be one of the better ones - you might want to go straight ranger with the variant human level 1 feat of martial initiate allowing you to take the barehand fighting style to start then picking up a second style at R2.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
well, if you start with Dex and Wis at 16 you will have AC of 16 (+3 Dex, +3 wis) and rangers use both of those stats as well. So as you increase those your AC will go higher. If you get 20 in both scores, that’s 20AC no armor.
the Hunter Ranger might be a good pick since you want to keep away from mysticism and magic for the Aiel feel. Plus it’s PHB I believe so that helps. gloom stalker might be another good choice but it is more magical feeling.
But remember, just because you can cast spells doesn’t mean you can’t flavor those spells as natural attacks. Spells like zephyr strike (xanathars), and absorb elements (elemental evil players companion) can be flavored as “not magical” even hail of thorns flavored as multiple spear throws. But check with your DM first to make sure they are cool with it.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
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Yes if you start with 16s in both Dex and wis you start better and getting to 20/20 is easier but it still takes 4 ASIs to get there so yes by L16 your AC 20 without armour. Now try getting there with standard array or a point buy that does nuke 2 other stats to get that 16/16 start.. that is why I recommend talking to the dm and seeing if you can do a couple of rolls and use the best for a planned MC.
I was sticking to PHB because he said it was all he had although I did recommend Tasha’s and Xanther’s. For all that folks love to see what they can do with the latest subclasses the PHB hunter is actually a very good ranger subclass.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Since a big theme for this build is recreating the Aiel culture..... I would remind you to look at the DMG section on poisons. Basically if you can beat a 20 on nature or Poisoners kit you can harvest a dose of poison from any dead or sleeping poisonous creature. however, getting lower than a 15 means you damage yourself. Most dms I have played with allow Favored enemies to count for harvesting poison. the advantage really helps. FYI---- W.O.T is where i first learned about "milking lizards".
so I would probably take Favored enemy beasts first. for scorpions and lizards and snakes. the second favored enemy would probably be open but I would lean towards one of the following :2 humaniod groups, Fiends, monstrosities or aberrations.
Darkvison and/or "pass without a trace" are good "Aiel" spells (assuming you don't get darkvison via some subclass.)
I can see javelin as the thrown weapon. The Aiel shun armor so I really don't want to go that route but they often have bucklers/small shields along with short spears and a shortbow (standard Aiel complement). I do recognize that shortbows and spears have some redundant overlap, but I haven't played since 3.5 and want to get a feel for the character before making extreme changes. In no way can this character have any type of sword. I have a feeling I will end up with a 16AC from Dex and Wis, anything else will have to come in the form of magic items (ter'angreal). I saw the Gloom variant and I think Hunter will fit a little better. Perception will be the skill that I get multiclassing into Ranger. I do like the idea of milking lizards lol, beasts and humanoids will most likely be how I will go, though undead has some in-character fit too if I fight against ghouls/ghasts (samma n'sei). I have considered getting Mobile with my human feat and only going 1 lvl of Monk for the unarmored defense and fighting.
Thanks for the advice. I will look into the other books to see if something else jumps out at me.
Not everyone uses rolled stats so I didn’t include that. If you can, go for it. But you might not always get better. I have a Druid with 4 CHA I’m playing. Other stats decent with one good roll that I put in Wisdom.
If going vHuman and standard array you could have 15 Dex and 14 Wis and put both +1’s in those, or reverse the scores. And maybe your feat a half feat to get the second score to 16. Standard array isn’t so bad. If you go with a different race that gives +2/+1 then it’s basically the same but no feat. Either way 16 in both.
At this point, I’m not sure monk gives you much if you wear armor. You could just as well go Barbarian and focus on Dex and con for AC and shield (since Aiel use shields and no armor that I recall). Wearing armor you lose the ability to use Dex for your spear melee attacks so you are back to STR do attacks which works with rage, which can tie into their fierceness in battle.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
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Agreed, I don’t know the Aiel so I was going from what the OP was saying. If they use a shield and no other armor then barbarian might well be a good choice for MC. It’s more MAD than monk due to the con vs wis benefit tho. However, since the OP was going “non magical” on the ranger spells that might work- 15D/14C/13W with a focus on personal use spells so saves are not a major issue. As with the monk (and sticking strictly to PHB since it’s all the OP has); the barbarian/ranger MC has the problem of where to stop the first class and pick up the second. Barbarian gets something every level and ranger gets something every level until L9. I would probably go barbarian 2/ranger 5 and then decide if I wanted to return to barbarian for a few levels or continue with ranger til I finish level 10 (B2/R8) then get at least 2 more barbarian levels.
A lot also depends on whether the character is a melee or missile type.
For barb/ranger and skills If you go variant human and outlander you could do: VH: perception, OUt.: athletics & survival, Barb: nature & intimidation/animal handling, Rang: stealth (or something else).
for the OP - book to get : Tasha’s it has the most bang for the bucks. In addition to the variant rules for classes it has the fighting initiate feat allowing you to get a second fighting style from the fighter list and it has the new fighter styles including unarmed and thrown weapons as well as a couple of subclasses for each class.
here is an example using Tasha’s:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sheet-pdfs/wcwilson82355_61292749.pdf
A straight PHB version would replace the variant human feat with Alertness, the ranger fighting style with dueling and the deft explorer and favored foe features with 2 favored foes and the 2 terrain types one of which should be desert.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.