A) It assumes the player maxed WIS. Considering how many people prefer to take multiple feats instead, speaks to the problem of "white room problem solving" from another angle: that most players are not going to build towards a capstone when not much else of the base Ranger's abilities benefit from a maxed WIS stat compared to picking up additional feats and maxing DEX or STR.
B) I can see where increasing "to hit" would be significant, but for a level 20 ability, it should either increase both damage & hit % or be effective for multiple attacks on the Ranger's turn since Rangers get Extra attack (and often options to hit more than 1 foe a round).
C) Damage-wise? Still little better than a 3rd level Rogue sneak attack, which, unlike the Ranger's 20th level ability, can also be used on attacks of opportunity. So in the damage department, it's actually comparable to a 3rd level Rogue ability, thus demonstrating (and who isn't going to consider the blah blah poop Ranger base class benefits at 3rd level and 10th level) again why most people would rather multi-class than go with PHB Ranger to level 20.
As for the capstone, it’s important to understand that with the right combination of Favored Enemies, you will have the use of Foe Slayer (FS) for at least a third of your BBEG battles. And it’s important to understand that FS statistically adds about 50%+ to your damage output per round to your basic attacks. If you need the stats sheet for this proof, let me know. This is not a trivial amount!
This is assuming that your Ranger picked the "right" Favored Enemy types all along. Like too many of the Ranger features, it assumes a close enough relationship between the Ranger's player and the DM for this to be in your favor. You only get three total Favored Enemy choices, by RAW. If the DM doesn't allow you to switch them as you go up in level or if you are playing as a guest at a con or in a new campaign, there can be a lot of mismatch.
In addition, "Once on each of your turns" means that it only applies to the effects of one attack or damage roll. Without a build to maximize crit possibility, that is not much use. It's not like you can dip Champion Fighter, since you've invested all your levels into Ranger just to get that far. If it affected all attack or damage rolls on your own turn, then it would be actually significant.
Crits Only affect Dice effects like smite and sneak attacks, not static bonuses like +1 weapons and your strength bonus, critting does not alter how much damage this attack deals
In my oppinion, the 20th level feature should be exploration focused, not combat focused and favored enemy should not be tied to combat at all but should rather be an ribbon feature slightly helping the interaction / exploration areas of the game but mostly acting as an roleplay thing in the background, the kinds of features that are just "+2 to hit and damage" are really dull, getting to gain additional information when tracking your favoured enemies, becoming better at finding the lairs of your favoured enemies and better surviving / avoiding the regional effects of those lairs, thwarting the false appearance trait many monsters have if they are your favoured enemies, finding out the type of information from your enemy you would gain from "know your enemy" of the battle master fighter, thwarting even the truesight of your favoured enemies while invisible, how exactly you build your character, your choice of subclass, spells, fighting style etc should be what makes you Good at fighting your favoured enemy, that it is your favoured enemy and that you know a LOT about how they work should be shown in interaction scenes by how you for instance might determine that a set of dragon bones once belonged to a green dragon even after its head frill has been torn off, the fact you can easily detect a mimic from a set of subtle enviormental clues, how you can tell these dead bandits work for the yuan ti by tasting the poison they put on their arrows, that should be the favoured enemy feature
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
@ Harachteh, I may be mistaken, but I think you have made serious errors:
1) You cannot compare Foe Slayer + Sharpshooter to just Sneak Attack the way you are, because you are ignoring higher levels of Sneak Attack. Foe Slayer itself (barring tomes and manuals) can only grant a max +5 damage for 1 attack per turn; Sneak Attack at level 3 can grant an average of +7 damage per turn. Foe Slayer + Sharpshooter can grant up to a max +15 damage to 1 attack per turn, but with a -5 penalty to attack, which could easily cause a miss; Sneak Attack at level 7 can grant an average of 14 damage per turn, with no penalty to attack.
2) Where are you getting 4 attacks from?
3) Foe Slayer still relies upon Favored Enemy, which can have an insanely low chance of applying, while Sneak Attack only relies upon advantage, which is quite frequent.
As to Favored Enemy's chance of applying: There are 13 types of creatures, not counting humanoids; and only counting the core 3 books, there are 22 types of humanoids.
In order to be facing a Favored Enemy, either A- it must be of the same type as a majority of what the player has already faced, which generally requires a themed campaign (or in other words, foreknowledge); B- the player must have looked ahead (foreknowledge); or C- the player must have got very lucky.
If it is C, how lucky?
If the campaign only features humanoid enemies, there is a 6/22 chance, or about 27%, that they face a Favored Enemy. If the campaign only features nonhumanoid enemies, there is a 3/13 chance, or about 23%. If the campaign features both, there is as little as a (6/22)/14 chance, or about 1.9%.
edit: I'm still not sure what you're trying to say. That foe slayer sucks? If so I'm with you, but not becasue of the dmg it provides but because it's completely out of the players control if it works at all.
The damage is indirect damage and is roughly equivalent to getting advantage IF it's used to boost the attack roll AND if it is used on a roll where the attack would otherwise have failed. However, knowing when to apply and not to apply the Ranger's 20th level bonus is guesswork.
The other problem, which I stated earlier, which neither Brewsky nor Harachteh addressed is that it depends on a 2ndary stat for the Ranger, which the PHB version does not have a strong incentive to boost much of the time since most Ranger attack spells are related to their weapon. Maxing DEX/STR and CON are often more important to Rangers than even getting a +4 to WIS.
Song_of_Blues compared strictly Foe Slayer to strictly Sneak Attack, you included Sharpshooter in the comparison on the side of Foe Slayer, making it an unfair comparison.
Also, after having looked at the giantitp link you provided, I have to agree with a number of comments there, the calculations are not really valid, as they are reliant upon narrow circumstances (only against AC of 20, having both DEX and WIS mods be +5, having a +3 weapon, having Sharpshooter, using Hunter's Mark). Basically, their numbers are for idealized circumstances, not accounting for variances, so they cannot be trusted.
I’m actually still a fan of vanilla Rangers - but it requires that you play a DM that includes exploration, overland travel, and other organic non-combat elements.
As for the capstone, it’s important to understand that with the right combination of Favored Enemies, you will have the use of Foe Slayer (FS) for at least a third of your BBEG battles. And it’s important to understand that FS statistically adds about 50%+ to your damage output per round to your basic attacks. If you need the stats sheet for this proof, let me know. This is not a trivial amount!
Because of this, the Ranger gets vastly underestimated. Theorycrafting leads us to use a “white room” comparison to other classes. This white room removes terrain, exploration, and situational effects that bring value to the Ranger class as a whole.
It's not a white room in any of the games I've played in since the 90s. Nobody wants to bother with tracking that crap. I've not tracked ammo or rations since 2e either. the general consensus for that stuff is all filed under "not fun".
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Song_of_Blues compared strictly Foe Slayer to strictly Sneak Attack, you included Sharpshooter in the comparison on the side of Foe Slayer, making it an unfair comparison.
Also, after having looked at the giantitp link you provided, I have to agree with a number of comments there, the calculations are not really valid, as they are reliant upon narrow circumstances (only against AC of 20, having both DEX and WIS mods be +5, having a +3 weapon, having Sharpshooter, using Hunter's Mark). Basically, their numbers are for idealized circumstances, not accounting for variances, so they cannot be trusted.
I would also add... wouldn't it be hard to have 20 in Dex and Wis AND Sharpshooter for most characters? This is a specific build that many players wouldn't have IMO, because for example, I wanted Resilient (Con) on my Ranger to up my Con and get proficiency in the saves for concentration checks. If you deviate the ASI choices would be tight, this is specific races and specific ASI choices to get this. The pay off would not be as big if you consider non-Sharpshooter characters (so a +14 to hit likely having a chance to hit, and +5 from Foe Slayer not doing anything, so then its just +5 damage in most instances) or characters that couldn't get +5 in Wisdom (more +3) or both.
Second, compare this to a straight state boost which would increase both attack and damage rolls in Dex (say you did the Barbarian equivalent), which works all the time, applies to both attack and damage rolls, and would still be less powerful than the Barbarian capstone since its only dex, not Str AND Con. We haven't even touched on the fact that it only applies to Favored Enemies yet...
@Positron49 Indeed. There are just too many things that must go together to make Foe Slayer functional, let alone good (at least with limited comparison).
@Harachteh Yes, we could do that, even make our own, but that does not change the fact that what is presented in the spreadsheet default is a (near) perfectly idealized set of circumstances in order to make the claim of how good Foe Slayer is, rather than an average set of circumstances.
Seeing as it’s my spreadsheet... the sheer number of people looking at it without actually verifying the numbers or assuming it only works in a perfect world isn’t surprising. The armchair critics do love to throw in random stats and then just assume that the numbers work in their favour.
Here are a few issues answered:
- The baseline I include does indeed include +3 weapons and Sharpshooter and maxxed Wisdom. All of which (except maybe the +3 weapons) are simple to attain in a normal character with point buy. The argument that a Ranger has a hard time getting maxxed Wis is kinda funny, especially when dual-stat classes are quite common in the game (and besides Sharpshooter what do you even need?) and they have no problem either. Add in some Hunter with Horde Breaker for five attacks... I didn’t even go there but the effect would be even more pronounced.
- Dex and Wisdom are both Primary Saves. Maxing then out is actually a good thing as every point into these ability scores means a LOT against the kinds of spells they will be up against. So it’s actually not a waste of ASIs to up them both .
- The percentage increase works, regardless of how low your damage is. It just works way better with Hunters Mark, Flame Arrows, Horde Breaker, Swift Quiver and Sharpshooter. And ridiculously so. Arguments about “it only gives you a small amount of damage increase” are actually quite baseless.
- “But what about if you miss by more than 5 on each attack and then your last attack missed!” Again, didn’t bother to look at the sheet. The chance of that happening is so small that it’s nearly irrelevant but then again... not surprised from armchair analysts that never bothered to check the actual numbers in the sheet.
- The real conversation is always about Favored Enemies, and that’s fair. I contend that if you’re in tune with your DM and the campaign, you’ll likely have a 30% likelihood of getting to use it, but your mileage will always vary.
EDIT: I did a quick reference check - with a regular longbow, archery, hunters mark, and +3 wisdom bonus and no sharpshooter the average damage went up over 33% for 2 attacks per round and up 30% for 4 attacks per round (with Swift Quiver instead of HM). Lol
Lets take it to the logical conclusion though:
My ranger is maxing both Dex and wis, is getting Sharpshooter, a +1 longbow at least, using Hunters Mark against AC 20...
24 to 37 damage per round (54% increase)
Or with Swift Quiver...
41 to 55.58 (58% increase)
Against AC 23 and Hunters Mark...
16.8 to 29.31 (75% increase)
Or with Swift Quiver...
28.7 to 44.17 (54% increase)
So go ahead and voice your concerns about Favored Enemy, but any claims about the damage output of Foe Slayer are proven unfounded.
Another Edit: Lets compare someone who takes a level of Rogue for their last level...
Your damage against AC 20 with Hunters Mark and Sneak Attack would go from 24 to 26.25 per round. If there’s someone beside your target.
With Swift Quiver your damage goes from 41 to 44.28. And again, only if someone kindly stands next to your target.
Now let’s compare AC 23...
With Hunters Mark and Sneak you go from 16.8 to 18.82. With Swift Quiver you go from 28.7 to 31.58.
... and one final comparison... I fight my AC20 Favored enemy with Foe Slayer for 8 rounds and Swift Quiver delivers 116.64 more damage than without Foe Slayer. You would have to have THIRTY SIX (36) rounds of combat with that extra sneak attack damage to even come to parity with that amount of extra damage I did in those 8 rounds.
Or, I go against an AC23 enemy for 8 rounds and deliver 123.76 extra damage with Foe Slayer. Or FORTY THREE (43) rounds of combat to come even with Sneak Attack.
Rogue: More skills, better at skills, better at skills
They have more skills, but I would not say they are better at skills. They get expertise on a few skills, but rangers get the equivalent of expertise on every int/wis skill in their favored terrain. Add in that rangers generally have a higher wisdom to boot and I don't think this necessarily is true.
The big thing about Rangers is their abilities are tied to their favored terrain, so it really depends on what kind of campaign you are in. If you are in a grand campaign happening mostly in one area, like the underdark or the jungle of Chult .... then Rangers can really capitalize on this. If every day or every quest is in a different area Rangers are going to be hindered.
Rogue: More skills, better at skills, better at skills
They have more skills, but I would not say they are better at skills. They get expertise on a few skills, but rangers get the equivalent of expertise on every int/wis skill in their favored terrain. Add in that rangers generally have a higher wisdom to boot and I don't think this necessarily is true.
The big thing about Rangers is their abilities are tied to their favored terrain, so it really depends on what kind of campaign you are in. If you are in a grand campaign happening mostly in one area, like the underdark or the jungle of Chult .... then Rangers can really capitalize on this. If every day or every quest is in a different area Rangers are going to be hindered.
Except rouges are still better at skills due to having reliable talent and expertise Always being aplicable no matter what, an level 3 scout rouge could potentially get expertise in almost all the skills natural Explorer Will ever apply to, and what "relates to" your favoured terrain is pretty vague and up to the dm. Is using survival to track an person in your favoured terrain related to it? Is trying to identify plants native to your Environment related? Is merely sneaking in your favoured terrain related? Is investigating a crime or phenomenon that has nothing to do with your terrain but that happened within it still related? Also Only applying to int and wisdom checks, Most rangers would like that to apply to dexterity as well, with how important stealth is to an ranger. Also there are plenty of rangers with low wisdom who use mostly spells that need no saving throw as mentioned above, and plenty of rouges with high wisdom thanks to maxing out their dex and not really having need for other abillity scores.
So generally rangers are on less than equal footing to rouges when it comes to skills, in fact rangers are rather behind in this regard
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
- Foe Slayer calculations again shouldn’t assume 20 Wisdom. It is not common to have this if using standard array. Even if you are a Wood Elf. It would take every ability score improvement to achieve this and have sharpshooter. You wouldn’t have any other selections. What if you want to play another race that isn’t optimized for Ranger? You would end at 16 or 18 for Wisdom, especially if you wanted another feat or a better Con than 13. I’d say your average Ranger would be closer to a +3 for Foe Slayer.
Edit: With more thought into this, I think the only reason Foe Slayer looks good is because of the specific combinations of numbers and feats. Let’s put it simply. Foe Slayer is only good if it turns a would be miss into a hit. These moments also statistically need to only happen once a turn. For example, Swift Quiver doesn’t get as large of a benefit, increase to 58% vs 54% because the chances of missing did go up, but capped. If you have 50% chance to miss and 4 attacks, you could have gotten two Foe Slayer usages but it’s only usable once a turn, so it’s benefits drop off. Players best option (which Someone could do the math) is to sharpshooter only while you haven’t used Foe Slayer, then once used switch to normal attacks. But sharpshooter is why Foe Slayer is good. For non-sharpshooter characters, For Slayer is only usable against an AC 20 Target 15% per attack, because they would miss on a 2, 3, 4, or 5 with the +14 to hit. Foe Slayer can’t save natural 1s and it wouldn’t save the natural 2. So once every 6-7 attacks. Depending on Swift Quiver that is once every round maybe (just giving a +3 to damage if not), or every 2-3 if not using that spell.
- Natural Explorer expertise is only added to skills in which you are proficient; not all Int and Wis skills. Assuming you took stealth or other dex skills, you probably only have 2-3 wis and int skills you are proficient in. This is basically a 1st level Rogue expertise, except theirs is on all the time and they get a total of 4 by 6. You still only have the 2-3 and they turn on more often at 6.
For one of the reasons Rangers suck, I would like to point to today module design.
A ranger player in 5e, as opposed to AD&D/2e/3e spends 3/4 of their entire character development in a single environment on a single adventure arc. This alone makes "Natural Explorer" a terrible ability, and invalidates 2 or the 3 times it is received as a level feature.
The problem isn't just in the Ranger's skills, it is also with Adventure Modules.
- Foe Slayer calculations again shouldn’t assume 20 Wisdom. It is not common to have this if using standard array. Even if you are a Wood Elf. It would take every ability score improvement to achieve this and have sharpshooter. You wouldn’t have any other selections. What if you want to play another race that isn’t optimized for Ranger? You would end at 16 or 18 for Wisdom, especially if you wanted another feat or a better Con than 13. I’d say your average Ranger would be closer to a +3 for Foe Slayer.
Edit: With more thought into this, I think the only reason Foe Slayer looks good is because of the specific combinations of numbers and feats. Let’s put it simply. Foe Slayer is only good if it turns a would be miss into a hit. These moments also statistically need to only happen once a turn. For example, Swift Quiver doesn’t get as large of a benefit, increase to 58% vs 54% because the chances of missing did go up, but capped. If you have 50% chance to miss and 4 attacks, you could have gotten two Foe Slayer usages but it’s only usable once a turn, so it’s benefits drop off. Players best option (which Someone could do the math) is to sharpshooter only while you haven’t used Foe Slayer, then once used switch to normal attacks. But sharpshooter is why Foe Slayer is good. For non-sharpshooter characters, For Slayer is only usable against an AC 20 Target 15% per attack, because they would miss on a 2, 3, 4, or 5 with the +14 to hit. Foe Slayer can’t save natural 1s and it wouldn’t save the natural 2. So once every 6-7 attacks. Depending on Swift Quiver that is once every round maybe (just giving a +3 to damage if not), or every 2-3 if not using that spell.
- Natural Explorer expertise is only added to skills in which you are proficient; not all Int and Wis skills. Assuming you took stealth or other dex skills, you probably only have 2-3 wis and int skills you are proficient in. This is basically a 1st level Rogue expertise, except theirs is on all the time and they get a total of 4 by 6. You still only have the 2-3 and they turn on more often at 6.
Again, didn’t read my previous post.
With Point Buy, +4 Wis is simple to get and also allows you to get a second feat outside of Sharpshooter. That is, unless you take a race that doesn’t even get a Dex or Wisdom bonus at all, in which case anything you build is going to be ******. We don’t discuss Yuan-ti Barbarians much on this site either, but you’re free to play one.
Your analysis is wrong. Foe Slayer makes Sharpshooter better, but not using Sharpshooter is a waste of time with or without Foe Slayer. If your Attack Bonus is +14 then you should use Sharpshooter ALWAYS until you hit AC 24.75 (as per Sharpshooter Spreadsheet found online).
And then again... you quoted some stats without even using the sheet once again. I’m not sure if this is just meant to be trolling or what, but I addressed Swift Quiver already and your percentages are irrelevant when compared to the totality of the spreadsheet which takes into account rounds with any number of hits and misses each round.
So let’s assume you’re playing the absolute most-underpowered Ranger ever. An Orc Ranger that uses a longbow +1, never got the Sharpshooter Feat and only spent 3 Feats to get Dex to 20 and Wisdom to 16:
With Hunters Mark, damage goes from 21 to 27.02 per round (28% increase).
With Swift Quiver it goes from 31.5 to 39.13 per round (24% increase).
Congrats, you found a scenario that makes Foe Slayer somewhat underpowered. I mean, 21 damage per round is already absolutely abysmal at Level 20, but that’s what you wanted to prove your point. Of course we left 2 Feats on the table because you wanted to make this point.
But let’s say we use those 2 leftover Feats and take Sharpshooter and take Wis to +4...
Hunters Mark goes from 24 to 34.84 (45% increase)
Swift Quiver goes from 41 to 55.11 (34% increase).
So there you go - a non-standard Race, with only a +4 Wis, still gets more than a 45% increase with their 1st level spell and 34% increase with their 5th level spell. That’s very substantial.
I would like to take a moment away from the capstone .... The ranger is not a full melee class, it is similar to paladin, yet is not made to destroy every person in sight. It is made to support, go from range and to make sure you help navigation and similar etc. Rangers should get something like the battle masters ability, where they suss out an opponent. It would be better if people looked at other things beside combat. The tracker feat (UA), should be some kind of ability, though pumped up a bit, and no wisdom increase. It just makes sense to me.
Though I would like to say about foe slayer.... If the amount of damage WITHOUT foe slayer is low, then the damage increase is higher. If you did this on a fighter, I'm sure it would be A LOT less of an increase, as they do more damage. I did read your stuff, and agree it is decent.
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'The Cleverness of mushrooms always surprises me!' - Ivern Bramblefoot.
I must also add how odd it is to see so many people poo-poo the Ranger capstone about its damage output even after sufficient objective evidence. Almost as if there’s a concerted effort to ensure that Rangers are given any credit because people have already made up their minds. Look at the complaints just in the last couple of pages:
- But I only use Standard Array (I’ve never once played with Standard array - only point buy or rolling)
- It only works with Sharpshooter (I thought all archers took this feat?)
- No self-respecting Ranger would get a Wisdom score more than 16.
- Despite Foe Slayer literally doing as much damage in 8 rounds as 1d6 sneak attack does in 46, you’d never get to use Favored Enemy because it only works when fighting Humanoid Orcs (which are extinct in my current world), Aberrations (which my DM never uses), and Undead (because the rest of the team are Clerics).
A) It assumes the player maxed WIS. Considering how many people prefer to take multiple feats instead, speaks to the problem of "white room problem solving" from another angle: that most players are not going to build towards a capstone when not much else of the base Ranger's abilities benefit from a maxed WIS stat compared to picking up additional feats and maxing DEX or STR.
B) I can see where increasing "to hit" would be significant, but for a level 20 ability, it should either increase both damage & hit % or be effective for multiple attacks on the Ranger's turn since Rangers get Extra attack (and often options to hit more than 1 foe a round).
C) Damage-wise? Still little better than a 3rd level Rogue sneak attack, which, unlike the Ranger's 20th level ability, can also be used on attacks of opportunity. So in the damage department, it's actually comparable to a 3rd level Rogue ability, thus demonstrating (and who isn't going to consider the blah blah poop Ranger base class benefits at 3rd level and 10th level) again why most people would rather multi-class than go with PHB Ranger to level 20.
Crits Only affect Dice effects like smite and sneak attacks, not static bonuses like +1 weapons and your strength bonus, critting does not alter how much damage this attack deals
In my oppinion, the 20th level feature should be exploration focused, not combat focused and favored enemy should not be tied to combat at all but should rather be an ribbon feature slightly helping the interaction / exploration areas of the game but mostly acting as an roleplay thing in the background, the kinds of features that are just "+2 to hit and damage" are really dull, getting to gain additional information when tracking your favoured enemies, becoming better at finding the lairs of your favoured enemies and better surviving / avoiding the regional effects of those lairs, thwarting the false appearance trait many monsters have if they are your favoured enemies, finding out the type of information from your enemy you would gain from "know your enemy" of the battle master fighter, thwarting even the truesight of your favoured enemies while invisible, how exactly you build your character, your choice of subclass, spells, fighting style etc should be what makes you Good at fighting your favoured enemy, that it is your favoured enemy and that you know a LOT about how they work should be shown in interaction scenes by how you for instance might determine that a set of dragon bones once belonged to a green dragon even after its head frill has been torn off, the fact you can easily detect a mimic from a set of subtle enviormental clues, how you can tell these dead bandits work for the yuan ti by tasting the poison they put on their arrows, that should be the favoured enemy feature
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
A)Check the calculations. You don't even have to do them yourself. It's still +30% with sharpshooter and +3 Wis and 4 attacks.
B) As long as it adds significant dmg it's not important how this is accomplished.
C) Third level rogue adds 2d6. With the example from above foe Slayer adds 14.
Please check the calculations instead of writing down your feelings.
@ Harachteh, I may be mistaken, but I think you have made serious errors:
1) You cannot compare Foe Slayer + Sharpshooter to just Sneak Attack the way you are, because you are ignoring higher levels of Sneak Attack. Foe Slayer itself (barring tomes and manuals) can only grant a max +5 damage for 1 attack per turn; Sneak Attack at level 3 can grant an average of +7 damage per turn. Foe Slayer + Sharpshooter can grant up to a max +15 damage to 1 attack per turn, but with a -5 penalty to attack, which could easily cause a miss; Sneak Attack at level 7 can grant an average of 14 damage per turn, with no penalty to attack.
2) Where are you getting 4 attacks from?
3) Foe Slayer still relies upon Favored Enemy, which can have an insanely low chance of applying, while Sneak Attack only relies upon advantage, which is quite frequent.
As to Favored Enemy's chance of applying: There are 13 types of creatures, not counting humanoids; and only counting the core 3 books, there are 22 types of humanoids.
In order to be facing a Favored Enemy, either A- it must be of the same type as a majority of what the player has already faced, which generally requires a themed campaign (or in other words, foreknowledge); B- the player must have looked ahead (foreknowledge); or C- the player must have got very lucky.
If it is C, how lucky?
If the campaign only features humanoid enemies, there is a 6/22 chance, or about 27%, that they face a Favored Enemy.
If the campaign only features nonhumanoid enemies, there is a 3/13 chance, or about 23%.
If the campaign features both, there is as little as a (6/22)/14 chance, or about 1.9%.
1) I didn't, Song_of_Blues compared it, damage wise, to a 3rd level Rogue sneak attack. The maximum of +15 with sharpshooter ignores the possibility to turn misses into hits. If you want to discuss this further check Brewksy's calculations at https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?612195-Foe-Slayer-Damage-Calculation-Spreadsheet
2) Extra Attack + Swift Quiver
3) I'm with you on that one https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/class-forums/ranger/59728-why-does-ranger-suck?comment=236
edit: I'm still not sure what you're trying to say. That foe slayer sucks? If so I'm with you, but not becasue of the dmg it provides but because it's completely out of the players control if it works at all.
The damage is indirect damage and is roughly equivalent to getting advantage IF it's used to boost the attack roll AND if it is used on a roll where the attack would otherwise have failed. However, knowing when to apply and not to apply the Ranger's 20th level bonus is guesswork.
The other problem, which I stated earlier, which neither Brewsky nor Harachteh addressed is that it depends on a 2ndary stat for the Ranger, which the PHB version does not have a strong incentive to boost much of the time since most Ranger attack spells are related to their weapon. Maxing DEX/STR and CON are often more important to Rangers than even getting a +4 to WIS.
@Harachteh
Song_of_Blues compared strictly Foe Slayer to strictly Sneak Attack, you included Sharpshooter in the comparison on the side of Foe Slayer, making it an unfair comparison.
Also, after having looked at the giantitp link you provided, I have to agree with a number of comments there, the calculations are not really valid, as they are reliant upon narrow circumstances (only against AC of 20, having both DEX and WIS mods be +5, having a +3 weapon, having Sharpshooter, using Hunter's Mark). Basically, their numbers are for idealized circumstances, not accounting for variances, so they cannot be trusted.
It's not a white room in any of the games I've played in since the 90s. Nobody wants to bother with tracking that crap. I've not tracked ammo or rations since 2e either. the general consensus for that stuff is all filed under "not fun".
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I would also add... wouldn't it be hard to have 20 in Dex and Wis AND Sharpshooter for most characters? This is a specific build that many players wouldn't have IMO, because for example, I wanted Resilient (Con) on my Ranger to up my Con and get proficiency in the saves for concentration checks. If you deviate the ASI choices would be tight, this is specific races and specific ASI choices to get this. The pay off would not be as big if you consider non-Sharpshooter characters (so a +14 to hit likely having a chance to hit, and +5 from Foe Slayer not doing anything, so then its just +5 damage in most instances) or characters that couldn't get +5 in Wisdom (more +3) or both.
Second, compare this to a straight state boost which would increase both attack and damage rolls in Dex (say you did the Barbarian equivalent), which works all the time, applies to both attack and damage rolls, and would still be less powerful than the Barbarian capstone since its only dex, not Str AND Con. We haven't even touched on the fact that it only applies to Favored Enemies yet...
@Positron49 Indeed. There are just too many things that must go together to make Foe Slayer functional, let alone good (at least with limited comparison).
FYI you can simply save a copy of the spreadsheet and change the modifiers/dmg/...
@Harachteh Yes, we could do that, even make our own, but that does not change the fact that what is presented in the spreadsheet default is a (near) perfectly idealized set of circumstances in order to make the claim of how good Foe Slayer is, rather than an average set of circumstances.
Seeing as it’s my spreadsheet... the sheer number of people looking at it without actually verifying the numbers or assuming it only works in a perfect world isn’t surprising. The armchair critics do love to throw in random stats and then just assume that the numbers work in their favour.
Here are a few issues answered:
- The baseline I include does indeed include +3 weapons and Sharpshooter and maxxed Wisdom. All of which (except maybe the +3 weapons) are simple to attain in a normal character with point buy. The argument that a Ranger has a hard time getting maxxed Wis is kinda funny, especially when dual-stat classes are quite common in the game (and besides Sharpshooter what do you even need?) and they have no problem either. Add in some Hunter with Horde Breaker for five attacks... I didn’t even go there but the effect would be even more pronounced.
- Dex and Wisdom are both Primary Saves. Maxing then out is actually a good thing as every point into these ability scores means a LOT against the kinds of spells they will be up against. So it’s actually not a waste of ASIs to up them both .
- The percentage increase works, regardless of how low your damage is. It just works way better with Hunters Mark, Flame Arrows, Horde Breaker, Swift Quiver and Sharpshooter. And ridiculously so. Arguments about “it only gives you a small amount of damage increase” are actually quite baseless.
- “But what about if you miss by more than 5 on each attack and then your last attack missed!” Again, didn’t bother to look at the sheet. The chance of that happening is so small that it’s nearly irrelevant but then again... not surprised from armchair analysts that never bothered to check the actual numbers in the sheet.
- The real conversation is always about Favored Enemies, and that’s fair. I contend that if you’re in tune with your DM and the campaign, you’ll likely have a 30% likelihood of getting to use it, but your mileage will always vary.
EDIT: I did a quick reference check - with a regular longbow, archery, hunters mark, and +3 wisdom bonus and no sharpshooter the average damage went up over 33% for 2 attacks per round and up 30% for 4 attacks per round (with Swift Quiver instead of HM). Lol
Lets take it to the logical conclusion though:
My ranger is maxing both Dex and wis, is getting Sharpshooter, a +1 longbow at least, using Hunters Mark against AC 20...
24 to 37 damage per round (54% increase)
Or with Swift Quiver...
41 to 55.58 (58% increase)
Against AC 23 and Hunters Mark...
16.8 to 29.31 (75% increase)
Or with Swift Quiver...
28.7 to 44.17 (54% increase)
So go ahead and voice your concerns about Favored Enemy, but any claims about the damage output of Foe Slayer are proven unfounded.
Another Edit: Lets compare someone who takes a level of Rogue for their last level...
Your damage against AC 20 with Hunters Mark and Sneak Attack would go from 24 to 26.25 per round. If there’s someone beside your target.
With Swift Quiver your damage goes from 41 to 44.28. And again, only if someone kindly stands next to your target.
Now let’s compare AC 23...
With Hunters Mark and Sneak you go from 16.8 to 18.82. With Swift Quiver you go from 28.7 to 31.58.
... and one final comparison... I fight my AC20 Favored enemy with Foe Slayer for 8 rounds and Swift Quiver delivers 116.64 more damage than without Foe Slayer. You would have to have THIRTY SIX (36) rounds of combat with that extra sneak attack damage to even come to parity with that amount of extra damage I did in those 8 rounds.
Or, I go against an AC23 enemy for 8 rounds and deliver 123.76 extra damage with Foe Slayer. Or FORTY THREE (43) rounds of combat to come even with Sneak Attack.
They have more skills, but I would not say they are better at skills. They get expertise on a few skills, but rangers get the equivalent of expertise on every int/wis skill in their favored terrain. Add in that rangers generally have a higher wisdom to boot and I don't think this necessarily is true.
The big thing about Rangers is their abilities are tied to their favored terrain, so it really depends on what kind of campaign you are in. If you are in a grand campaign happening mostly in one area, like the underdark or the jungle of Chult .... then Rangers can really capitalize on this. If every day or every quest is in a different area Rangers are going to be hindered.
Except rouges are still better at skills due to having reliable talent and expertise Always being aplicable no matter what, an level 3 scout rouge could potentially get expertise in almost all the skills natural Explorer Will ever apply to, and what "relates to" your favoured terrain is pretty vague and up to the dm. Is using survival to track an person in your favoured terrain related to it? Is trying to identify plants native to your Environment related? Is merely sneaking in your favoured terrain related? Is investigating a crime or phenomenon that has nothing to do with your terrain but that happened within it still related? Also Only applying to int and wisdom checks, Most rangers would like that to apply to dexterity as well, with how important stealth is to an ranger. Also there are plenty of rangers with low wisdom who use mostly spells that need no saving throw as mentioned above, and plenty of rouges with high wisdom thanks to maxing out their dex and not really having need for other abillity scores.
So generally rangers are on less than equal footing to rouges when it comes to skills, in fact rangers are rather behind in this regard
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Two Points:
- Foe Slayer calculations again shouldn’t assume 20 Wisdom. It is not common to have this if using standard array. Even if you are a Wood Elf. It would take every ability score improvement to achieve this and have sharpshooter. You wouldn’t have any other selections. What if you want to play another race that isn’t optimized for Ranger? You would end at 16 or 18 for Wisdom, especially if you wanted another feat or a better Con than 13. I’d say your average Ranger would be closer to a +3 for Foe Slayer.
Edit: With more thought into this, I think the only reason Foe Slayer looks good is because of the specific combinations of numbers and feats. Let’s put it simply. Foe Slayer is only good if it turns a would be miss into a hit. These moments also statistically need to only happen once a turn. For example, Swift Quiver doesn’t get as large of a benefit, increase to 58% vs 54% because the chances of missing did go up, but capped. If you have 50% chance to miss and 4 attacks, you could have gotten two Foe Slayer usages but it’s only usable once a turn, so it’s benefits drop off. Players best option (which Someone could do the math) is to sharpshooter only while you haven’t used Foe Slayer, then once used switch to normal attacks. But sharpshooter is why Foe Slayer is good. For non-sharpshooter characters, For Slayer is only usable against an AC 20 Target 15% per attack, because they would miss on a 2, 3, 4, or 5 with the +14 to hit. Foe Slayer can’t save natural 1s and it wouldn’t save the natural 2. So once every 6-7 attacks. Depending on Swift Quiver that is once every round maybe (just giving a +3 to damage if not), or every 2-3 if not using that spell.
- Natural Explorer expertise is only added to skills in which you are proficient; not all Int and Wis skills. Assuming you took stealth or other dex skills, you probably only have 2-3 wis and int skills you are proficient in. This is basically a 1st level Rogue expertise, except theirs is on all the time and they get a total of 4 by 6. You still only have the 2-3 and they turn on more often at 6.
For one of the reasons Rangers suck, I would like to point to today module design.
A ranger player in 5e, as opposed to AD&D/2e/3e spends 3/4 of their entire character development in a single environment on a single adventure arc. This alone makes "Natural Explorer" a terrible ability, and invalidates 2 or the 3 times it is received as a level feature.
The problem isn't just in the Ranger's skills, it is also with Adventure Modules.
40+ year D&D Veteran, Roleplaying and Character Dev. are my jam, but I equally enjoy all pillars of play.
Again, didn’t read my previous post.
With Point Buy, +4 Wis is simple to get and also allows you to get a second feat outside of Sharpshooter. That is, unless you take a race that doesn’t even get a Dex or Wisdom bonus at all, in which case anything you build is going to be ******. We don’t discuss Yuan-ti Barbarians much on this site either, but you’re free to play one.
Your analysis is wrong. Foe Slayer makes Sharpshooter better, but not using Sharpshooter is a waste of time with or without Foe Slayer. If your Attack Bonus is +14 then you should use Sharpshooter ALWAYS until you hit AC 24.75 (as per Sharpshooter Spreadsheet found online).
And then again... you quoted some stats without even using the sheet once again. I’m not sure if this is just meant to be trolling or what, but I addressed Swift Quiver already and your percentages are irrelevant when compared to the totality of the spreadsheet which takes into account rounds with any number of hits and misses each round.
So let’s assume you’re playing the absolute most-underpowered Ranger ever. An Orc Ranger that uses a longbow +1, never got the Sharpshooter Feat and only spent 3 Feats to get Dex to 20 and Wisdom to 16:
With Hunters Mark, damage goes from 21 to 27.02 per round (28% increase).
With Swift Quiver it goes from 31.5 to 39.13 per round (24% increase).
Congrats, you found a scenario that makes Foe Slayer somewhat underpowered. I mean, 21 damage per round is already absolutely abysmal at Level 20, but that’s what you wanted to prove your point. Of course we left 2 Feats on the table because you wanted to make this point.
But let’s say we use those 2 leftover Feats and take Sharpshooter and take Wis to +4...
Hunters Mark goes from 24 to 34.84 (45% increase)
Swift Quiver goes from 41 to 55.11 (34% increase).
So there you go - a non-standard Race, with only a +4 Wis, still gets more than a 45% increase with their 1st level spell and 34% increase with their 5th level spell. That’s very substantial.
I would like to take a moment away from the capstone .... The ranger is not a full melee class, it is similar to paladin, yet is not made to destroy every person in sight. It is made to support, go from range and to make sure you help navigation and similar etc. Rangers should get something like the battle masters ability, where they suss out an opponent. It would be better if people looked at other things beside combat. The tracker feat (UA), should be some kind of ability, though pumped up a bit, and no wisdom increase. It just makes sense to me.
Though I would like to say about foe slayer.... If the amount of damage WITHOUT foe slayer is low, then the damage increase is higher. If you did this on a fighter, I'm sure it would be A LOT less of an increase, as they do more damage. I did read your stuff, and agree it is decent.
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I must also add how odd it is to see so many people poo-poo the Ranger capstone about its damage output even after sufficient objective evidence. Almost as if there’s a concerted effort to ensure that Rangers are given any credit because people have already made up their minds. Look at the complaints just in the last couple of pages:
- But I only use Standard Array (I’ve never once played with Standard array - only point buy or rolling)
- It only works with Sharpshooter (I thought all archers took this feat?)
- No self-respecting Ranger would get a Wisdom score more than 16.
- Despite Foe Slayer literally doing as much damage in 8 rounds as 1d6 sneak attack does in 46, you’d never get to use Favored Enemy because it only works when fighting Humanoid Orcs (which are extinct in my current world), Aberrations (which my DM never uses), and Undead (because the rest of the team are Clerics).