I love the Ranger class but started hating the features before Tasha's. The terrain and exploration abilities really shouldn't be gassed up. I understand that it "can" be useful but it's a pain more often than not.
Tasha's made Ranger great again....aside from the lvl 20 ability I'm still not a fan of. (would rather take a single dip in cleric for cantrips and other passives, plus you don't lose anything aside from Foe Slayer!)
I'm not going to defend Favored Foe Slayer as a great capstone or anything, but I will point out that it 1d8 Favored Foe + 5 Foe Slayer does ultimately add up to around the same damage as a non-magical longbow, rapier, or one-handed longsword. It doesn't get stronger with magic items and it doesn't proc Sharpshooter/GWM, but it is basically a mini-Extra Attack that requires concentration but doesn't need a separate attack roll to hit. Still not the best capstone, but lest we forget the Fighter's capstone is literally just Extra Attack again, so while the Fighter's is better, it's not that much better.
Also, Foe Slayer has the choice to add +5 to the attack roll instead and still add 1d8 to the damage, which does make it slightly more versatile than just a mere Extra Attack.
Yeah, it's just that by lvl 20 you're most likely using your concentration on anything else. I'd 100% rather have the fighter's extra attack. Haha I really wish foe slayer was better. They should aim to be a little OP when multi-classing is so front loaded. But I guess it's not just a ranger problem lol
Your group can’t become lost except by magical means. While I agree with your statement on this one....its still mostly handwaving any real danger with getting lost. You have expertise in the roll for survival and likely the DC will be so minimal for you in your favored terrain that its basically an auto-win. If not...then why even have this part if you can get lost by rolling low?
Even when you are engaged in another activity while traveling (such as foraging, navigating, or tracking), you remain alert to danger. I do not even know what this means....would you normally take a -5 perception hit while doing these things? I thought that relied on travel pace not activity? Checking these individual activities in the DMG does not suggest you would take a penalty but I could be missing something...this literally seems to be referencing nothing.
If you are traveling alone, you can move stealthily at a normal pace.- DnD is a party game and any ability that encourages party split is not really something I enjoy or find valuable. I wish this was for ALL of your party and it would be much more useful.
When you forage, you find twice as much food as you normally would.- This one makes sense for something like inhospitable terrains but if you pick Forrest its hard to believe that the DC will ever be more than 15. Plus there are spells like Goodberry that just make this moot. Rations are cheap and do not take up a lot of space.
While tracking other creatures, you also learn their exact number, their sizes, and how long ago they passed through the area.- This one is the most useful overall and I actually enjoy this one.
The rules for wilderness survival begin on page 109 of the DMG. If you don't know what any of this means, I suggest you look it up.
The rules to avoid becoming lost are on pages 111 and 112. The DC is set by the terrain and weather conditions, which can also grant advantage or impose disadvantage.
While not explicitly called out in the rules, the DM is free to impose disadvantage on your passive Perception if you are also engaged in another activity. Always remaining alert to danger means they don't get to do that.
Forward scouts are a thing, and some people may wish to emulate this. Regardless, how you choose to view and enjoy the game does not mean a feature is wrong for facilitating other in-game activities. In other words, someone else's different brand of fun from yours isn't wrong.
Foraging is on page 111 of the DMG. Finding food in the wild lessens the need for rations and other provisions if you also have mounts, pack animals, or even a ranger's companion. And if you are responsible for NPCs, then it's exceedingly useful. While incredibly useful, spells like goodberry and create food and water can't do everything.
Being able to gather information is always useful. Glad we finally agree on something.
Easiest to hardest isn't a matter of perception or skill. I am simply looking at it in the most basic terms. If you took four average people, not a fantasy hero, and you put one in each area, the person in the city will last the longest, then the person in a natural setting like a forest, etc...
"Your putting a lot of personal biases into the way your breaking things up." Again, not really. I hardly think it is bias to say that someone can survive longer in a city than a desert.
Is a desert and the arctic the same, no, but you are waaay over analyzing this. Its a game, I created a way to group environments in a way that I feel makes sense from a gameplay logic and in a way that creates a number of possible options that fit the mold so that at level 17 you have all of them. If you want to create your own version of Favored Terrain that has 47 different possible terrains because surviving in each has its own list of crap go for it.
This is just an alternative for someone who wants to use Favored Terrain over Deft Explorer and feel like the choice is more impactful.
Actually. Your 4 average people. If I just drop them in the 4 types of environments you suggest without some knowledge of how to deal with it or resources to do such. All 4 are dead within days to a week. The One in the city doesn't know how to scrounge for food and doesn't have money to buy it. The one in the forest doesn't know how to forage. the one in the Desert doesn't know how to find water. And the one in the Underdark Cave is going to die because their ability to navigate is limited and they have no protections.
But that's the gritty basic reality that you say your taking into mind that your really not.
Now if I give the person in the city some money... Yeah. They might survive the longest if all I do is give the others money...But if I give all of them knowledge of how to forage and find water and equipment for traversing difficult environments? The 3 in the other environments are going to last longer even though I'm giving everybody everything equally.
Your analogy is flawed. Your breakdown is flawed. You think your being simple but your version of simple doesn't work. Your picking what you think in your mind to you seems easiest by your sensibilities and undertsanding.
I didn't overanalyze anything. I just pointed out very blantant and big flaws in your whole system. I dont' even ahve to create my own overly exagerated system either. There already is one that makes all the distinctions that I mentioned. And a skill that backs things up in general where it doesn't. The work is already done. Though I feel like it is missing a cuople specific environments potentially. Overall it does the job.
Your group can’t become lost except by magical means. While I agree with your statement on this one....its still mostly handwaving any real danger with getting lost. You have expertise in the roll for survival and likely the DC will be so minimal for you in your favored terrain that its basically an auto-win. If not...then why even have this part if you can get lost by rolling low?
Even when you are engaged in another activity while traveling (such as foraging, navigating, or tracking), you remain alert to danger. I do not even know what this means....would you normally take a -5 perception hit while doing these things? I thought that relied on travel pace not activity? Checking these individual activities in the DMG does not suggest you would take a penalty but I could be missing something...this literally seems to be referencing nothing.
If you are traveling alone, you can move stealthily at a normal pace.- DnD is a party game and any ability that encourages party split is not really something I enjoy or find valuable. I wish this was for ALL of your party and it would be much more useful.
When you forage, you find twice as much food as you normally would.- This one makes sense for something like inhospitable terrains but if you pick Forrest its hard to believe that the DC will ever be more than 15. Plus there are spells like Goodberry that just make this moot. Rations are cheap and do not take up a lot of space.
While tracking other creatures, you also learn their exact number, their sizes, and how long ago they passed through the area.- This one is the most useful overall and I actually enjoy this one.
The rules for wilderness survival begin on page 109 of the DMG. If you don't know what any of this means, I suggest you look it up.
The rules to avoid becoming lost are on pages 111 and 112. The DC is set by the terrain and weather conditions, which can also grant advantage or impose disadvantage.
While not explicitly called out in the rules, the DM is free to impose disadvantage on your passive Perception if you are also engaged in another activity. Always remaining alert to danger means they don't get to do that.
Forward scouts are a thing, and some people may wish to emulate this. Regardless, how you choose to view and enjoy the game does not mean a feature is wrong for facilitating other in-game activities. In other words, someone else's different brand of fun from yours isn't wrong.
Foraging is on page 111 of the DMG. Finding food in the wild lessens the need for rations and other provisions if you also have mounts, pack animals, or even a ranger's companion. And if you are responsible for NPCs, then it's exceedingly useful. While incredibly useful, spells like [Tooltip Not Found] can't do everything.
Being able to gather information is always useful. Glad we finally agree on something.
You need to calm down....
His Explanations were calm. He was even nice and didn't bother pointing out that technically the DM can deny you a Perception check to spot other things because your attention is focused elsewhere. They don't actually have to give you anything while your actively using another skill liek Survival. But most DM's are nicer and sometimes more realistic than that. Even though tunnel vision making things go completely un-noticed is a real thing even in real life.
"When you make an Intelligence or Wisdom check related to your favored terrain, your proficiency bonus is doubled if you are using a skill that you’re proficient in."
This part. This can be as open-ended or unclear and restrictive as a DM and/or player chooses to make it. Just like ball bearings, a 10' pole, knowledge checks, brewer's supplies, a 50' coil of rope, an herbalism kit, or a crowbar, these things are open to use in game, creatively. Arcana, history, investigation, nature, religion, animal handling, insight medicine, perception, and survival are all viable skills that can benefit from the natural explorer ability, some more than others. Nature and survival get a lot of attention because of the nature (pun intended) of the ranger class and now the scout rogue, but I think that this short sighted. Proficiency in a skill instead of expertise amounts to 10%-15% mathematical difference until level 9, and the ranger has many other skills, abilities, and spells that can easily more than overcome that difference. The use of this ability is limited only by the creativity of the player and DM.
Do you have some examples that you have used?
Intelligence
Intelligence measures mental acuity, accuracy of recall, and the ability to reason.
Intelligence Checks
An Intelligence check comes into play when you need to draw on logic, education, memory, or deductive reasoning. The Arcana, History, Investigation, Nature, and Religion skills reflect aptitude in certain kinds of Intelligence checks.
Arcana
Your Intelligence (Arcana) check measures your ability to recall lore about spells, magic items, eldritch symbols, magical traditions, the planes of existence, and the inhabitants of those planes.
History
Your Intelligence (History) check measures your ability to recall lore about historical events, legendary people, ancient kingdoms, past disputes, recent wars, and lost civilizations.
Investigation
When you look around for clues and make deductions based on those clues, you make an Intelligence (Investigation) check. You might deduce the location of a hidden object, discern from the appearance of a wound what kind of weapon dealt it, or determine the weakest point in a tunnel that could cause it to collapse. Poring through ancient scrolls in search of a hidden fragment of knowledge might also call for an Intelligence (Investigation) check.
Nature
Your Intelligence (Nature) check measures your ability to recall lore about terrain, plants and animals, the weather, and natural cycles.
Religion
Your Intelligence (Religion) check measures your ability to recall lore about deities, rites and prayers, religious hierarchies, holy symbols, and the practices of secret cults.
Wisdom
Wisdom reflects how attuned you are to the world around you and represents perceptiveness and intuition.
Wisdom Checks
A Wisdom check might reflect an effort to read body language, understand someone’s feelings, notice things about the environment, or care for an injured person. The Animal Handling, Insight, Medicine, Perception, and Survival skills reflect aptitude in certain kinds of Wisdom checks.
Animal Handling
When there is any question whether you can calm down a domesticated animal, keep a mount from getting spooked, or intuit an animal’s intentions, the DM might call for a Wisdom (Animal Handling) check. You also make a Wisdom (Animal Handling) check to control your mount when you attempt a risky maneuver.
Insight
Your Wisdom (Insight) check decides whether you can determine the true intentions of a creature, such as when searching out a lie or predicting someone’s next move. Doing so involves gleaning clues from body language, speech habits, and changes in mannerisms.
Medicine
A Wisdom (Medicine) check lets you try to stabilize a dying companion or diagnose an illness.
Perception
Your Wisdom (Perception) check lets you spot, hear, or otherwise detect the presence of something. It measures your general awareness of your surroundings and the keenness of your senses. For example, you might try to hear a conversation through a closed door, eavesdrop under an open window, or hear monsters moving stealthily in the forest. Or you might try to spot things that are obscured or easy to miss, whether they are orcs lying in ambush on a road, thugs hiding in the shadows of an alley, or candlelight under a closed secret door.
Survival
The DM might ask you to make a Wisdom (Survival) check to follow tracks, hunt wild game, guide your group through frozen wastelands, identify signs that owlbears live nearby, predict the weather, or avoid quicksand and other natural hazards.
I was asked to give some examples of how the first part of the ranger's natural explorer ability works while not in the terrain itself. I induced the text from the PHB above, and I'll give some examples below.
Arcana would be a strange one for sure. Just for a ranger alone. But it could be made, and I know many don't like this idea, about things and creatures that exist in the terrain. The underdark is a great example of this.
History is an easy one. In a real world way in which a tour guide or historian would know all about a civilization, battle or other historical event that took place in a region, a ranger would know all about the history, folklore, and fables (also possibly arcana) of a given large region.
Investigation is often underutilized in favor of perception, but they are very different. To gain the double proficiency when using investigation it would have to be related to a favored terrain. So I think of forests and investigating in a greenhouse, or for a secret door hidden by ivy or vines, or signs of a struggle from a animal from the forest. Perhaps mountains would make you keener at looking for clues in a cave system (given the stone types and such), or how a trap made to be hidden on a mountain trail doesn't fit in to the natural surroundings. Swamp could be looking through manuscripts about plants or creatures that live in those parts of the world, or when trying to ascertain the cause of a poison or disease.
Nature is also an easy one. Even in a city that is in an area of the favored terrain type a ranger can predict weather very well. Knowing information about any flora and fauna from the favored terrain like at fish market, herbalist shop, or picking out some pack animals. Gardening, making poisons, or plotting a route on a map through your favored terrain.
Religion is a tough one for sure, except there are several deities that are of the forest and feywild, so a ranger would literately be an expert in this. If there humanoid cultures that live in the terrain, coastal has many of these, as might swamps or mountains, a ranger might be very knowledgeable in these rituals and rites.
I'll be honest, for me animal handling is basically expertise in animal handling for a ranger. Fish, mammal, insect, reptile, bird, all beasts. If a ranger takes animal handling as a proficiency (they should), I give them expertise almost all the time unless it is an incredibly bizarre circumstance.
Insight is a tough one, but I can think of it working when dealing with fantastical creatures that are tightly tied with a given landscape. Thinking of treants and forests, merfolk and the coast, giants and the mountains, hags and the swamps.
Medicine plays a lot like nature in that poisons, diseases, and even the cause of wounds that are from elements or origins of a given terrain can be better treated via this skill. Also in the swamp, coast, or forest where plant life is nearby known to help with treat ailments (burns, wounds, stabilizing, poisons, etc.) a ranger can use this knowledge to their advantage.
Perception makes the most sense in the terrain, but if the thing you're trying to perceive is of or from the terrain the ranger would be better suited to paying attention to it the most. The sound of an animal, the smell of plant, animal, or other feature (swamps and coasts have smells that are distinct) would peak the ranger's senses. Noticing something out of sorts in a painting or tapestry of their terrain.
Survival also makes the most sense in the landscape. However, this is a mental skill, so plotting a route on a map, planning an attack on something in the terrain type, anticipating what will be needed to traverse a harsh landscape, or calculating the travel time and supplies needed for a group to go from point A to point B are all examples of using this skill before setting out from a village or city.
"When you make an Intelligence or Wisdom check related to your favored terrain, your proficiency bonus is doubled if you are using a skill that you’re proficient in."
This part. This can be as open-ended or unclear and restrictive as a DM and/or player chooses to make it. Just like ball bearings, a 10' pole, knowledge checks, brewer's supplies, a 50' coil of rope, an herbalism kit, or a crowbar, these things are open to use in game, creatively. Arcana, history, investigation, nature, religion, animal handling, insight medicine, perception, and survival are all viable skills that can benefit from the natural explorer ability, some more than others. Nature and survival get a lot of attention because of the nature (pun intended) of the ranger class and now the scout rogue, but I think that this short sighted. Proficiency in a skill instead of expertise amounts to 10%-15% mathematical difference until level 9, and the ranger has many other skills, abilities, and spells that can easily more than overcome that difference. The use of this ability is limited only by the creativity of the player and DM.
Do you have some examples that you have used?
Intelligence
Intelligence measures mental acuity, accuracy of recall, and the ability to reason.
Intelligence Checks
An Intelligence check comes into play when you need to draw on logic, education, memory, or deductive reasoning. The Arcana, History, Investigation, Nature, and Religion skills reflect aptitude in certain kinds of Intelligence checks.
Arcana
Your Intelligence (Arcana) check measures your ability to recall lore about spells, magic items, eldritch symbols, magical traditions, the planes of existence, and the inhabitants of those planes.
History
Your Intelligence (History) check measures your ability to recall lore about historical events, legendary people, ancient kingdoms, past disputes, recent wars, and lost civilizations.
Investigation
When you look around for clues and make deductions based on those clues, you make an Intelligence (Investigation) check. You might deduce the location of a hidden object, discern from the appearance of a wound what kind of weapon dealt it, or determine the weakest point in a tunnel that could cause it to collapse. Poring through ancient scrolls in search of a hidden fragment of knowledge might also call for an Intelligence (Investigation) check.
Nature
Your Intelligence (Nature) check measures your ability to recall lore about terrain, plants and animals, the weather, and natural cycles.
Religion
Your Intelligence (Religion) check measures your ability to recall lore about deities, rites and prayers, religious hierarchies, holy symbols, and the practices of secret cults.
Wisdom
Wisdom reflects how attuned you are to the world around you and represents perceptiveness and intuition.
Wisdom Checks
A Wisdom check might reflect an effort to read body language, understand someone’s feelings, notice things about the environment, or care for an injured person. The Animal Handling, Insight, Medicine, Perception, and Survival skills reflect aptitude in certain kinds of Wisdom checks.
Animal Handling
When there is any question whether you can calm down a domesticated animal, keep a mount from getting spooked, or intuit an animal’s intentions, the DM might call for a Wisdom (Animal Handling) check. You also make a Wisdom (Animal Handling) check to control your mount when you attempt a risky maneuver.
Insight
Your Wisdom (Insight) check decides whether you can determine the true intentions of a creature, such as when searching out a lie or predicting someone’s next move. Doing so involves gleaning clues from body language, speech habits, and changes in mannerisms.
Medicine
A Wisdom (Medicine) check lets you try to stabilize a dying companion or diagnose an illness.
Perception
Your Wisdom (Perception) check lets you spot, hear, or otherwise detect the presence of something. It measures your general awareness of your surroundings and the keenness of your senses. For example, you might try to hear a conversation through a closed door, eavesdrop under an open window, or hear monsters moving stealthily in the forest. Or you might try to spot things that are obscured or easy to miss, whether they are orcs lying in ambush on a road, thugs hiding in the shadows of an alley, or candlelight under a closed secret door.
Survival
The DM might ask you to make a Wisdom (Survival) check to follow tracks, hunt wild game, guide your group through frozen wastelands, identify signs that owlbears live nearby, predict the weather, or avoid quicksand and other natural hazards.
I was asked to give some examples of how the first part of the ranger's natural explorer ability works while not in the terrain itself. I induced the text from the PHB above, and I'll give some examples below.
Arcana would be a strange one for sure. Just for a ranger alone. But it could be made, and I know many don't like this idea, about things and creatures that exist in the terrain. The underdark is a great example of this.
History is an easy one. In a real world way in which a tour guide or historian would know all about a civilization, battle or other historical event that took place in a region, a ranger would know all about the history, folklore, and fables (also possibly arcana) of a given large region.
Investigation is often underutilized in favor of perception, but they are very different. To gain the double proficiency when using investigation it would have to be related to a favored terrain. So I think of forests and investigating in a greenhouse, or for a secret door hidden by ivy or vines, or signs of a struggle from a animal from the forest. Perhaps mountains would make you keener at looking for clues in a cave system (given the stone types and such), or how a trap made to be hidden on a mountain trail doesn't fit in to the natural surroundings. Swamp could be looking through manuscripts about plants or creatures that live in those parts of the world, or when trying to ascertain the cause of a poison or disease.
Nature is also an easy one. Even in a city that is in an area of the favored terrain type a ranger can predict weather very well. Knowing information about any flora and fauna from the favored terrain like at fish market, herbalist shop, or picking out some pack animals. Gardening, making poisons, or plotting a route on a map through your favored terrain.
Religion is a tough one for sure, except there are several deities that are of the forest and feywild, so a ranger would literately be an expert in this. If there humanoid cultures that live in the terrain, coastal has many of these, as might swamps or mountains, a ranger might be very knowledgeable in these rituals and rites.
I'll be honest, for me animal handling is basically expertise in animal handling for a ranger. Fish, mammal, insect, reptile, bird, all beasts. If a ranger takes animal handling as a proficiency (they should), I give them expertise almost all the time unless it is an incredibly bizarre circumstance.
Insight is a tough one, but I can think of it working when dealing with fantastical creatures that are tightly tied with a given landscape. Thinking of treants and forests, merfolk and the coast, giants and the mountains, hags and the swamps.
Medicine plays a lot like nature in that poisons, diseases, and even the cause of wounds that are from elements or origins of a given terrain can be better treated via this skill. Also in the swamp, coast, or forest where plant life is nearby known to help with treat ailments (burns, wounds, stabilizing, poisons, etc.) a ranger can use this knowledge to their advantage.
Perception makes the most sense in the terrain, but if the thing you're trying to perceive is of or from the terrain the ranger would be better suited to paying attention to it the most. The sound of an animal, the smell of plant, animal, or other feature (swamps and coasts have smells that are distinct) would peak the ranger's senses. Noticing something out of sorts in a painting or tapestry of their terrain.
Survival also makes the most sense in the landscape. However, this is a mental skill, so plotting a route on a map, planning an attack on something in the terrain type, anticipating what will be needed to traverse a harsh landscape, or calculating the travel time and supplies needed for a group to go from point A to point B are all examples of using this skill before setting out from a village or city.
Your group can’t become lost except by magical means. While I agree with your statement on this one....its still mostly handwaving any real danger with getting lost. You have expertise in the roll for survival and likely the DC will be so minimal for you in your favored terrain that its basically an auto-win. If not...then why even have this part if you can get lost by rolling low?
Even when you are engaged in another activity while traveling (such as foraging, navigating, or tracking), you remain alert to danger. I do not even know what this means....would you normally take a -5 perception hit while doing these things? I thought that relied on travel pace not activity? Checking these individual activities in the DMG does not suggest you would take a penalty but I could be missing something...this literally seems to be referencing nothing.
If you are traveling alone, you can move stealthily at a normal pace.- DnD is a party game and any ability that encourages party split is not really something I enjoy or find valuable. I wish this was for ALL of your party and it would be much more useful.
When you forage, you find twice as much food as you normally would.- This one makes sense for something like inhospitable terrains but if you pick Forrest its hard to believe that the DC will ever be more than 15. Plus there are spells like Goodberry that just make this moot. Rations are cheap and do not take up a lot of space.
While tracking other creatures, you also learn their exact number, their sizes, and how long ago they passed through the area.- This one is the most useful overall and I actually enjoy this one.
The rules for wilderness survival begin on page 109 of the DMG. If you don't know what any of this means, I suggest you look it up.
The rules to avoid becoming lost are on pages 111 and 112. The DC is set by the terrain and weather conditions, which can also grant advantage or impose disadvantage.
While not explicitly called out in the rules, the DM is free to impose disadvantage on your passive Perception if you are also engaged in another activity. Always remaining alert to danger means they don't get to do that.
Forward scouts are a thing, and some people may wish to emulate this. Regardless, how you choose to view and enjoy the game does not mean a feature is wrong for facilitating other in-game activities. In other words, someone else's different brand of fun from yours isn't wrong.
Foraging is on page 111 of the DMG. Finding food in the wild lessens the need for rations and other provisions if you also have mounts, pack animals, or even a ranger's companion. And if you are responsible for NPCs, then it's exceedingly useful. While incredibly useful, spells like [Tooltip Not Found] can't do everything.
Being able to gather information is always useful. Glad we finally agree on something.
You need to calm down....
His Explanations were calm. He was even nice and didn't bother pointing out that technically the DM can deny you a Perception check to spot other things because your attention is focused elsewhere. They don't actually have to give you anything while your actively using another skill liek Survival. But most DM's are nicer and sometimes more realistic than that. Even though tunnel vision making things go completely un-noticed is a real thing even in real life.
They were not friendly... Basically none of his posts directed at me are.
Saying I'm idiotic or that the things I present "make him feel dumber" having read them.
No need for that.
I won't argue that my tone cannot stand improvement from time to time. By the same token, you repeatedly type from a position of ignorance. They were first published on December 9th, 2016.
That said, I'll be the first to say they're not particularly fun. The entire exploration pillar could have stood to be fleshed out more, and I often find myself turning to other sources for what I need. I've found the 4E DMGs, later books like Ghosts of Saltmarsh, and even retro-clones like Old School Essentials to be invaluable.
But none of this changes the fact that the rules have been in print for more than six years now. And you don't really have an excuse for coming into this conversation with an empty quiver.
"When you make an Intelligence or Wisdom check related to your favored terrain, your proficiency bonus is doubled if you are using a skill that you’re proficient in."
This part. This can be as open-ended or unclear and restrictive as a DM and/or player chooses to make it. Just like ball bearings, a 10' pole, knowledge checks, brewer's supplies, a 50' coil of rope, an herbalism kit, or a crowbar, these things are open to use in game, creatively. Arcana, history, investigation, nature, religion, animal handling, insight medicine, perception, and survival are all viable skills that can benefit from the natural explorer ability, some more than others. Nature and survival get a lot of attention because of the nature (pun intended) of the ranger class and now the scout rogue, but I think that this short sighted. Proficiency in a skill instead of expertise amounts to 10%-15% mathematical difference until level 9, and the ranger has many other skills, abilities, and spells that can easily more than overcome that difference. The use of this ability is limited only by the creativity of the player and DM.
Do you have some examples that you have used?
Intelligence
Intelligence measures mental acuity, accuracy of recall, and the ability to reason.
Intelligence Checks
An Intelligence check comes into play when you need to draw on logic, education, memory, or deductive reasoning. The Arcana, History, Investigation, Nature, and Religion skills reflect aptitude in certain kinds of Intelligence checks.
Arcana
Your Intelligence (Arcana) check measures your ability to recall lore about spells, magic items, eldritch symbols, magical traditions, the planes of existence, and the inhabitants of those planes.
History
Your Intelligence (History) check measures your ability to recall lore about historical events, legendary people, ancient kingdoms, past disputes, recent wars, and lost civilizations.
Investigation
When you look around for clues and make deductions based on those clues, you make an Intelligence (Investigation) check. You might deduce the location of a hidden object, discern from the appearance of a wound what kind of weapon dealt it, or determine the weakest point in a tunnel that could cause it to collapse. Poring through ancient scrolls in search of a hidden fragment of knowledge might also call for an Intelligence (Investigation) check.
Nature
Your Intelligence (Nature) check measures your ability to recall lore about terrain, plants and animals, the weather, and natural cycles.
Religion
Your Intelligence (Religion) check measures your ability to recall lore about deities, rites and prayers, religious hierarchies, holy symbols, and the practices of secret cults.
Wisdom
Wisdom reflects how attuned you are to the world around you and represents perceptiveness and intuition.
Wisdom Checks
A Wisdom check might reflect an effort to read body language, understand someone’s feelings, notice things about the environment, or care for an injured person. The Animal Handling, Insight, Medicine, Perception, and Survival skills reflect aptitude in certain kinds of Wisdom checks.
Animal Handling
When there is any question whether you can calm down a domesticated animal, keep a mount from getting spooked, or intuit an animal’s intentions, the DM might call for a Wisdom (Animal Handling) check. You also make a Wisdom (Animal Handling) check to control your mount when you attempt a risky maneuver.
Insight
Your Wisdom (Insight) check decides whether you can determine the true intentions of a creature, such as when searching out a lie or predicting someone’s next move. Doing so involves gleaning clues from body language, speech habits, and changes in mannerisms.
Medicine
A Wisdom (Medicine) check lets you try to stabilize a dying companion or diagnose an illness.
Perception
Your Wisdom (Perception) check lets you spot, hear, or otherwise detect the presence of something. It measures your general awareness of your surroundings and the keenness of your senses. For example, you might try to hear a conversation through a closed door, eavesdrop under an open window, or hear monsters moving stealthily in the forest. Or you might try to spot things that are obscured or easy to miss, whether they are orcs lying in ambush on a road, thugs hiding in the shadows of an alley, or candlelight under a closed secret door.
Survival
The DM might ask you to make a Wisdom (Survival) check to follow tracks, hunt wild game, guide your group through frozen wastelands, identify signs that owlbears live nearby, predict the weather, or avoid quicksand and other natural hazards.
I was asked to give some examples of how the first part of the ranger's natural explorer ability works while not in the terrain itself. I induced the text from the PHB above, and I'll give some examples below.
Arcana would be a strange one for sure. Just for a ranger alone. But it could be made, and I know many don't like this idea, about things and creatures that exist in the terrain. The underdark is a great example of this.
History is an easy one. In a real world way in which a tour guide or historian would know all about a civilization, battle or other historical event that took place in a region, a ranger would know all about the history, folklore, and fables (also possibly arcana) of a given large region.
Investigation is often underutilized in favor of perception, but they are very different. To gain the double proficiency when using investigation it would have to be related to a favored terrain. So I think of forests and investigating in a greenhouse, or for a secret door hidden by ivy or vines, or signs of a struggle from a animal from the forest. Perhaps mountains would make you keener at looking for clues in a cave system (given the stone types and such), or how a trap made to be hidden on a mountain trail doesn't fit in to the natural surroundings. Swamp could be looking through manuscripts about plants or creatures that live in those parts of the world, or when trying to ascertain the cause of a poison or disease.
Nature is also an easy one. Even in a city that is in an area of the favored terrain type a ranger can predict weather very well. Knowing information about any flora and fauna from the favored terrain like at fish market, herbalist shop, or picking out some pack animals. Gardening, making poisons, or plotting a route on a map through your favored terrain.
Religion is a tough one for sure, except there are several deities that are of the forest and feywild, so a ranger would literately be an expert in this. If there humanoid cultures that live in the terrain, coastal has many of these, as might swamps or mountains, a ranger might be very knowledgeable in these rituals and rites.
I'll be honest, for me animal handling is basically expertise in animal handling for a ranger. Fish, mammal, insect, reptile, bird, all beasts. If a ranger takes animal handling as a proficiency (they should), I give them expertise almost all the time unless it is an incredibly bizarre circumstance.
Insight is a tough one, but I can think of it working when dealing with fantastical creatures that are tightly tied with a given landscape. Thinking of treants and forests, merfolk and the coast, giants and the mountains, hags and the swamps.
Medicine plays a lot like nature in that poisons, diseases, and even the cause of wounds that are from elements or origins of a given terrain can be better treated via this skill. Also in the swamp, coast, or forest where plant life is nearby known to help with treat ailments (burns, wounds, stabilizing, poisons, etc.) a ranger can use this knowledge to their advantage.
Perception makes the most sense in the terrain, but if the thing you're trying to perceive is of or from the terrain the ranger would be better suited to paying attention to it the most. The sound of an animal, the smell of plant, animal, or other feature (swamps and coasts have smells that are distinct) would peak the ranger's senses. Noticing something out of sorts in a painting or tapestry of their terrain.
Survival also makes the most sense in the landscape. However, this is a mental skill, so plotting a route on a map, planning an attack on something in the terrain type, anticipating what will be needed to traverse a harsh landscape, or calculating the travel time and supplies needed for a group to go from point A to point B are all examples of using this skill before setting out from a village or city.
Since you bring this up, I was wondering.
A Ranger with Natural Explorer really benefits from the oft-derided Skilled feat. Between the Ranger's three proficiencies, Skilled, two proficiencies from their background, and maybe one from their race, a Ranger could theoretically have up to nine proficiencies, most of which can become Expertises with Natural Explorer.
Assuming a Variant Human with Skilled as the bonus feat (and an additional feat from their race,) what would you say are the top nine priority skills for an average Ranger?
I'd say Stealth and Sleight of Hand are high on the list, but the other seven could be all Int or Wis-based. In what order would you prioritize the Int and Wis skills for a Ranger specifically?
Yep! And there is always a dip into rogue for the physical skills. A lizardfolk ranger with the skilled feat and the right background would be a skillful character.
Easiest to hardest isn't a matter of perception or skill. I am simply looking at it in the most basic terms. If you took four average people, not a fantasy hero, and you put one in each area, the person in the city will last the longest, then the person in a natural setting like a forest, etc...
"Your putting a lot of personal biases into the way your breaking things up." Again, not really. I hardly think it is bias to say that someone can survive longer in a city than a desert.
Is a desert and the arctic the same, no, but you are waaay over analyzing this. Its a game, I created a way to group environments in a way that I feel makes sense from a gameplay logic and in a way that creates a number of possible options that fit the mold so that at level 17 you have all of them. If you want to create your own version of Favored Terrain that has 47 different possible terrains because surviving in each has its own list of crap go for it.
This is just an alternative for someone who wants to use Favored Terrain over Deft Explorer and feel like the choice is more impactful.
Overall it does the job.
I am not gonna bother rebuffing most of your points because again, you apply your own rules and assumptions to the scenario so there is little point and I will simply respond to the last statement. Clearly most players don't agree with that "[o]verall it does the job" and the fact that Wizards didn't tweak it but abandoned it all together, but you are free to disagree.
I'd say Stealth and Sleight of Hand are high on the list, but the other seven could be all Int or Wis-based. In what order would you prioritize the Int and Wis skills for a Ranger specifically?
Just curious, what makes sleight of hand so high for you? I've usually looked past it.
I'd say Stealth and Sleight of Hand are high on the list, but the other seven could be all Int or Wis-based. In what order would you prioritize the Int and Wis skills for a Ranger specifically?
Just curious, what makes sleight of hand so high for you? I've usually looked past it.
In my experience, Rangers tend to be just as good at Roguing as Rogues (until the latter gets Reliable Talent,) so Sleight of Hand is useful for pickpocketing, sneaking objects into other people's pockets, and so on.
Admittedly, it becomes less relevant if you have an actual Rogue in your group, but if that's not the case (and it isn't really any sort of guarantee either,) you can sub in a pinch.
For the purposes of my post, however, I was using it as an example of one of the most important skills a Ranger would generally take that weren't Int or Wis-based.
Skilled can't compete with Skill Expert, not in the slightest.
Easily the least likely skills of the ones discussed for a DM to rule you can roll it with expertise because it's terrain-related are Sleight of Hand, Religion, Arcana, and Medicine. On the other hand, while it's dead easy to roll History with expertise, the only things you'll recall will be generally useless outside of a lecture on geology or ecology - it's great you know most deserts used to be underwater, but will that be helpful?
Stealth, Athletics, Acrobatics, Perception, Investigation, Survival, Animal Handling, and Nature are the go-to relevant skills in the fortunate circumstance you happen to be in one of your favored terrains.
Yep! And there is always a dip into rogue for the physical skills. A lizardfolk ranger with the skilled feat and the right background would be a skillful character.
Typically, I consider Stealth, Perception, and Survival the top 3 Ranger skills. Following those, I personally tend to default to Insight and Sleight of Hand. Then there's Nature, History, and a physical skill (typically Acrobatics,) with the final spot being a toss-up between Arcana, Nature, and Investigation.
That said, I so sometimes find myself not quite satisfied with my selections. So I'm wondering what other people prioritize to see if I can adjust my mindset.
Skilled can't compete with Skill Expert, not in the slightest.
Easily the least likely skills of the ones discussed for a DM to rule you can roll it with expertise because it's terrain-related are Sleight of Hand, Religion, Arcana, and Medicine. On the other hand, while it's dead easy to roll History with expertise, the only things you'll recall will be generally useless outside of a lecture on geology or ecology - it's great you know most deserts used to be underwater, but will that be helpful?
Stealth, Athletics, Acrobatics, Perception, Investigation, Survival, Animal Handling, and Nature are the go-to relevant skills in the fortunate circumstance you happen to be in one of your favored terrains.
Once again we find ourselves with me trying to find ways things WILL work and you trying to find ways things WON'T work.
Full circle.
Think of all of the full official published campaign books, think of their level range, and count the number of separate unique terrain types in each. I'll tell you it's level 1-13 and 1-2 terrains. Rangers have 3 terrains by level 10. Easy math. If you aren't featuring much natural landscape travel, exploration, or interaction, no one, not a scout rogue, not a druid, no one, is going to be making use of any of the skills that take place in the natural world. Just as a rogue with thieve's tools expertise gets zero use out of it in the desert or in a cave system.
A Ranger with Natural Explorer really benefits from the oft-derided Skilled feat. Between the Ranger's three proficiencies, Skilled, two proficiencies from their background, and maybe one from their race, a Ranger could theoretically have up to nine proficiencies, most of which can become Expertises with Natural Explorer.
Assuming a Variant Human with Skilled as the bonus feat (and an additional feat from their race,) what would you say are the top nine priority skills for an average Ranger?
I'd say Stealth and Sleight of Hand are high on the list, but the other seven could be all Int or Wis-based. In what order would you prioritize the Int and Wis skills for a Ranger specifically?
I really like the skilled feat, maybe too much, and I know a lot of people deride it, and in many game tables it probably isn't the optimal choice, definitely not the optimal combat choice, but who gives? It is frankly amazing for RP opportunities and gives you options to do things that your class wouldn't necessarily have access to outside of background/multiclassing!
I will acknowledge that Skill Expert is also amazing, and possibly even better, but they're two of the best feats in the game. Yes, you read it right. Two. Of. The. Best. Feats. In. The. Game. Obviously that's an opinion and you don't have to agree, and mileage will vary.
I think one oft overlooked aspect of skilled is that you can take tool proficiencies too, and I also appreciate that tools have a bad rap, but if there is a need to take something commonly considered more useful like thieves tools then the Ranger is a fine carrier. Disguise kits are also great, forgery kits can do amazing things, I've never used a poisoner's kit but I'm sure it does well, cooking utensils, alchemy kits, herbalism kits, the options are amazing, any type of artisan's tools if you want to be making things during downtime, smith's tools are a personal favourite.
Easiest to hardest isn't a matter of perception or skill. I am simply looking at it in the most basic terms. If you took four average people, not a fantasy hero, and you put one in each area, the person in the city will last the longest, then the person in a natural setting like a forest, etc...
"Your putting a lot of personal biases into the way your breaking things up." Again, not really. I hardly think it is bias to say that someone can survive longer in a city than a desert.
Is a desert and the arctic the same, no, but you are waaay over analyzing this. Its a game, I created a way to group environments in a way that I feel makes sense from a gameplay logic and in a way that creates a number of possible options that fit the mold so that at level 17 you have all of them. If you want to create your own version of Favored Terrain that has 47 different possible terrains because surviving in each has its own list of crap go for it.
This is just an alternative for someone who wants to use Favored Terrain over Deft Explorer and feel like the choice is more impactful.
Overall it does the job.
I am not gonna bother rebuffing most of your points because again, you apply your own rules and assumptions to the scenario so there is little point and I will simply respond to the last statement. Clearly most players don't agree with that "[o]verall it does the job" and the fact that Wizards didn't tweak it but abandoned it all together, but you are free to disagree.
Actually. you can't prove that most players actually don't agree that it does the job overall. You can only prove that the vocal minority... much of which is all about combat and min-maxing doesn't agree with it. Even this thread shows that you can't make that Most Players argument because there are many players over the length of this thread that do not think it is bad overall. Just that they don't get to use it much. Which is very different from what your trying to argue here. Particularly since there are a lot of varied reasons as to why they didn't get to do it much that range from player choice to DM choices, to different focuses in their campaigns. But your just going to ignore all that of course. Because those don't fit the personal bias your going for or your supposed efforts to make things better.
Yeah. Anyone who can’t get the base PHB ranger abilities to come up in a game can try a little more and overcome that. The DMG says “Often, players ask whether they can apply a skill proficiency to an ability check. If a player can provide a good justification for why a character’s training and aptitude in a skill should apply to the check, go ahead and allow it, rewarding the player’s creative thinking.”
If you can’t make the ranger abilities work at a given table or with a specific DM than you can forget about using other gear, tools, background features, illusion magic, divination magic, or any other aspect of the game that involves the slightest DM adjudication.
Yeah. Anyone who can’t get the base PHB ranger abilities to come up in a game can try a little more and overcome that. The DMG says “Often, players ask whether they can apply a skill proficiency to an ability check. If a player can provide a good justification for why a character’s training and aptitude in a skill should apply to the check, go ahead and allow it, rewarding the player’s creative thinking.”
If you can’t make the ranger abilities work at a given table or with a specific DM than you can forget about using other gear, tools, background features, illusion magic, divination magic, or any other aspect of the game that involves the slightest DM adjudication.
I disagree with that simply because it's harder to shoehorn them in. The investigation/survival checks maybe but the other features is harder.
Also for investigation even with ADV it's unlikely the ranger will do better than an INT based class which is odd to me.
At levels 5-8, if an Int class has proficiency and a +4 modifier, that’s +7 to a roll, and if a ranger has proficiency, a +0 modifier and sometimes double proficiency in things related to terrains it has +3 to +6 to a roll. That’s pretty good for zero investment and a being martial class And that is more than likely considering the PHB ranger is as much, if not more, a mental skill class than a stealthy one.
Yeah, it's just that by lvl 20 you're most likely using your concentration on anything else. I'd 100% rather have the fighter's extra attack. Haha I really wish foe slayer was better. They should aim to be a little OP when multi-classing is so front loaded. But I guess it's not just a ranger problem lol
The rules for wilderness survival begin on page 109 of the DMG. If you don't know what any of this means, I suggest you look it up.
Actually. Your 4 average people. If I just drop them in the 4 types of environments you suggest without some knowledge of how to deal with it or resources to do such. All 4 are dead within days to a week. The One in the city doesn't know how to scrounge for food and doesn't have money to buy it. The one in the forest doesn't know how to forage. the one in the Desert doesn't know how to find water. And the one in the Underdark Cave is going to die because their ability to navigate is limited and they have no protections.
But that's the gritty basic reality that you say your taking into mind that your really not.
Now if I give the person in the city some money... Yeah. They might survive the longest if all I do is give the others money...But if I give all of them knowledge of how to forage and find water and equipment for traversing difficult environments? The 3 in the other environments are going to last longer even though I'm giving everybody everything equally.
Your analogy is flawed. Your breakdown is flawed. You think your being simple but your version of simple doesn't work. Your picking what you think in your mind to you seems easiest by your sensibilities and undertsanding.
I didn't overanalyze anything. I just pointed out very blantant and big flaws in your whole system. I dont' even ahve to create my own overly exagerated system either. There already is one that makes all the distinctions that I mentioned. And a skill that backs things up in general where it doesn't. The work is already done. Though I feel like it is missing a cuople specific environments potentially. Overall it does the job.
His Explanations were calm. He was even nice and didn't bother pointing out that technically the DM can deny you a Perception check to spot other things because your attention is focused elsewhere. They don't actually have to give you anything while your actively using another skill liek Survival. But most DM's are nicer and sometimes more realistic than that. Even though tunnel vision making things go completely un-noticed is a real thing even in real life.
Intelligence
Intelligence measures mental acuity, accuracy of recall, and the ability to reason.
Intelligence Checks
An Intelligence check comes into play when you need to draw on logic, education, memory, or deductive reasoning. The Arcana, History, Investigation, Nature, and Religion skills reflect aptitude in certain kinds of Intelligence checks.
Arcana
Your Intelligence (Arcana) check measures your ability to recall lore about spells, magic items, eldritch symbols, magical traditions, the planes of existence, and the inhabitants of those planes.
History
Your Intelligence (History) check measures your ability to recall lore about historical events, legendary people, ancient kingdoms, past disputes, recent wars, and lost civilizations.
Investigation
When you look around for clues and make deductions based on those clues, you make an Intelligence (Investigation) check. You might deduce the location of a hidden object, discern from the appearance of a wound what kind of weapon dealt it, or determine the weakest point in a tunnel that could cause it to collapse. Poring through ancient scrolls in search of a hidden fragment of knowledge might also call for an Intelligence (Investigation) check.
Nature
Your Intelligence (Nature) check measures your ability to recall lore about terrain, plants and animals, the weather, and natural cycles.
Religion
Your Intelligence (Religion) check measures your ability to recall lore about deities, rites and prayers, religious hierarchies, holy symbols, and the practices of secret cults.
Wisdom
Wisdom reflects how attuned you are to the world around you and represents perceptiveness and intuition.
Wisdom Checks
A Wisdom check might reflect an effort to read body language, understand someone’s feelings, notice things about the environment, or care for an injured person. The Animal Handling, Insight, Medicine, Perception, and Survival skills reflect aptitude in certain kinds of Wisdom checks.
Animal Handling
When there is any question whether you can calm down a domesticated animal, keep a mount from getting spooked, or intuit an animal’s intentions, the DM might call for a Wisdom (Animal Handling) check. You also make a Wisdom (Animal Handling) check to control your mount when you attempt a risky maneuver.
Insight
Your Wisdom (Insight) check decides whether you can determine the true intentions of a creature, such as when searching out a lie or predicting someone’s next move. Doing so involves gleaning clues from body language, speech habits, and changes in mannerisms.
Medicine
A Wisdom (Medicine) check lets you try to stabilize a dying companion or diagnose an illness.
Perception
Your Wisdom (Perception) check lets you spot, hear, or otherwise detect the presence of something. It measures your general awareness of your surroundings and the keenness of your senses. For example, you might try to hear a conversation through a closed door, eavesdrop under an open window, or hear monsters moving stealthily in the forest. Or you might try to spot things that are obscured or easy to miss, whether they are orcs lying in ambush on a road, thugs hiding in the shadows of an alley, or candlelight under a closed secret door.
Survival
The DM might ask you to make a Wisdom (Survival) check to follow tracks, hunt wild game, guide your group through frozen wastelands, identify signs that owlbears live nearby, predict the weather, or avoid quicksand and other natural hazards.
I was asked to give some examples of how the first part of the ranger's natural explorer ability works while not in the terrain itself. I induced the text from the PHB above, and I'll give some examples below.
Arcana would be a strange one for sure. Just for a ranger alone. But it could be made, and I know many don't like this idea, about things and creatures that exist in the terrain. The underdark is a great example of this.
History is an easy one. In a real world way in which a tour guide or historian would know all about a civilization, battle or other historical event that took place in a region, a ranger would know all about the history, folklore, and fables (also possibly arcana) of a given large region.
Investigation is often underutilized in favor of perception, but they are very different. To gain the double proficiency when using investigation it would have to be related to a favored terrain. So I think of forests and investigating in a greenhouse, or for a secret door hidden by ivy or vines, or signs of a struggle from a animal from the forest. Perhaps mountains would make you keener at looking for clues in a cave system (given the stone types and such), or how a trap made to be hidden on a mountain trail doesn't fit in to the natural surroundings. Swamp could be looking through manuscripts about plants or creatures that live in those parts of the world, or when trying to ascertain the cause of a poison or disease.
Nature is also an easy one. Even in a city that is in an area of the favored terrain type a ranger can predict weather very well. Knowing information about any flora and fauna from the favored terrain like at fish market, herbalist shop, or picking out some pack animals. Gardening, making poisons, or plotting a route on a map through your favored terrain.
Religion is a tough one for sure, except there are several deities that are of the forest and feywild, so a ranger would literately be an expert in this. If there humanoid cultures that live in the terrain, coastal has many of these, as might swamps or mountains, a ranger might be very knowledgeable in these rituals and rites.
I'll be honest, for me animal handling is basically expertise in animal handling for a ranger. Fish, mammal, insect, reptile, bird, all beasts. If a ranger takes animal handling as a proficiency (they should), I give them expertise almost all the time unless it is an incredibly bizarre circumstance.
Insight is a tough one, but I can think of it working when dealing with fantastical creatures that are tightly tied with a given landscape. Thinking of treants and forests, merfolk and the coast, giants and the mountains, hags and the swamps.
Medicine plays a lot like nature in that poisons, diseases, and even the cause of wounds that are from elements or origins of a given terrain can be better treated via this skill. Also in the swamp, coast, or forest where plant life is nearby known to help with treat ailments (burns, wounds, stabilizing, poisons, etc.) a ranger can use this knowledge to their advantage.
Perception makes the most sense in the terrain, but if the thing you're trying to perceive is of or from the terrain the ranger would be better suited to paying attention to it the most. The sound of an animal, the smell of plant, animal, or other feature (swamps and coasts have smells that are distinct) would peak the ranger's senses. Noticing something out of sorts in a painting or tapestry of their terrain.
Survival also makes the most sense in the landscape. However, this is a mental skill, so plotting a route on a map, planning an attack on something in the terrain type, anticipating what will be needed to traverse a harsh landscape, or calculating the travel time and supplies needed for a group to go from point A to point B are all examples of using this skill before setting out from a village or city.
These are good examples! Thank you for sharing!
I won't argue that my tone cannot stand improvement from time to time. By the same token, you repeatedly type from a position of ignorance. They were first published on December 9th, 2016.
That said, I'll be the first to say they're not particularly fun. The entire exploration pillar could have stood to be fleshed out more, and I often find myself turning to other sources for what I need. I've found the 4E DMGs, later books like Ghosts of Saltmarsh, and even retro-clones like Old School Essentials to be invaluable.
But none of this changes the fact that the rules have been in print for more than six years now. And you don't really have an excuse for coming into this conversation with an empty quiver.
Since you bring this up, I was wondering.
A Ranger with Natural Explorer really benefits from the oft-derided Skilled feat. Between the Ranger's three proficiencies, Skilled, two proficiencies from their background, and maybe one from their race, a Ranger could theoretically have up to nine proficiencies, most of which can become Expertises with Natural Explorer.
Assuming a Variant Human with Skilled as the bonus feat (and an additional feat from their race,) what would you say are the top nine priority skills for an average Ranger?
I'd say Stealth and Sleight of Hand are high on the list, but the other seven could be all Int or Wis-based. In what order would you prioritize the Int and Wis skills for a Ranger specifically?
Yep! And there is always a dip into rogue for the physical skills. A lizardfolk ranger with the skilled feat and the right background would be a skillful character.
I am not gonna bother rebuffing most of your points because again, you apply your own rules and assumptions to the scenario so there is little point and I will simply respond to the last statement. Clearly most players don't agree with that "[o]verall it does the job" and the fact that Wizards didn't tweak it but abandoned it all together, but you are free to disagree.
Just curious, what makes sleight of hand so high for you? I've usually looked past it.
In my experience, Rangers tend to be just as good at Roguing as Rogues (until the latter gets Reliable Talent,) so Sleight of Hand is useful for pickpocketing, sneaking objects into other people's pockets, and so on.
Admittedly, it becomes less relevant if you have an actual Rogue in your group, but if that's not the case (and it isn't really any sort of guarantee either,) you can sub in a pinch.
For the purposes of my post, however, I was using it as an example of one of the most important skills a Ranger would generally take that weren't Int or Wis-based.
Skilled can't compete with Skill Expert, not in the slightest.
Easily the least likely skills of the ones discussed for a DM to rule you can roll it with expertise because it's terrain-related are Sleight of Hand, Religion, Arcana, and Medicine. On the other hand, while it's dead easy to roll History with expertise, the only things you'll recall will be generally useless outside of a lecture on geology or ecology - it's great you know most deserts used to be underwater, but will that be helpful?
Stealth, Athletics, Acrobatics, Perception, Investigation, Survival, Animal Handling, and Nature are the go-to relevant skills in the fortunate circumstance you happen to be in one of your favored terrains.
Typically, I consider Stealth, Perception, and Survival the top 3 Ranger skills. Following those, I personally tend to default to Insight and Sleight of Hand. Then there's Nature, History, and a physical skill (typically Acrobatics,) with the final spot being a toss-up between Arcana, Nature, and Investigation.
That said, I so sometimes find myself not quite satisfied with my selections. So I'm wondering what other people prioritize to see if I can adjust my mindset.
Once again we find ourselves with me trying to find ways things WILL work and you trying to find ways things WON'T work.
Full circle.
Think of all of the full official published campaign books, think of their level range, and count the number of separate unique terrain types in each. I'll tell you it's level 1-13 and 1-2 terrains. Rangers have 3 terrains by level 10. Easy math. If you aren't featuring much natural landscape travel, exploration, or interaction, no one, not a scout rogue, not a druid, no one, is going to be making use of any of the skills that take place in the natural world. Just as a rogue with thieve's tools expertise gets zero use out of it in the desert or in a cave system.
I really like the skilled feat, maybe too much, and I know a lot of people deride it, and in many game tables it probably isn't the optimal choice, definitely not the optimal combat choice, but who gives? It is frankly amazing for RP opportunities and gives you options to do things that your class wouldn't necessarily have access to outside of background/multiclassing!
I will acknowledge that Skill Expert is also amazing, and possibly even better, but they're two of the best feats in the game. Yes, you read it right. Two. Of. The. Best. Feats. In. The. Game. Obviously that's an opinion and you don't have to agree, and mileage will vary.
Outside of the Ranger's available choices (Animal Handling, Athletics, Insight, Investigation, Nature, Perception, Stealth, and Survival) I think the most common/immediately useful options are History, Medicine, both for the advantages you can gain from NE, and Sleight of Hand, and Acrobatics if you have a high dex to benefit from those, but honestly anything is a good choice, even if you're not taking an INT/WIS skill you'll gain mileage.
I think one oft overlooked aspect of skilled is that you can take tool proficiencies too, and I also appreciate that tools have a bad rap, but if there is a need to take something commonly considered more useful like thieves tools then the Ranger is a fine carrier. Disguise kits are also great, forgery kits can do amazing things, I've never used a poisoner's kit but I'm sure it does well, cooking utensils, alchemy kits, herbalism kits, the options are amazing, any type of artisan's tools if you want to be making things during downtime, smith's tools are a personal favourite.
Actually. you can't prove that most players actually don't agree that it does the job overall. You can only prove that the vocal minority... much of which is all about combat and min-maxing doesn't agree with it. Even this thread shows that you can't make that Most Players argument because there are many players over the length of this thread that do not think it is bad overall. Just that they don't get to use it much. Which is very different from what your trying to argue here. Particularly since there are a lot of varied reasons as to why they didn't get to do it much that range from player choice to DM choices, to different focuses in their campaigns. But your just going to ignore all that of course. Because those don't fit the personal bias your going for or your supposed efforts to make things better.
Yeah. Anyone who can’t get the base PHB ranger abilities to come up in a game can try a little more and overcome that. The DMG says “Often, players ask whether they can apply a skill proficiency to an ability check. If a player can provide a good justification for why a character’s training and aptitude in a skill should apply to the check, go ahead and allow it, rewarding the player’s creative thinking.”
If you can’t make the ranger abilities work at a given table or with a specific DM than you can forget about using other gear, tools, background features, illusion magic, divination magic, or any other aspect of the game that involves the slightest DM adjudication.
I disagree with that simply because it's harder to shoehorn them in. The investigation/survival checks maybe but the other features is harder.
Also for investigation even with ADV it's unlikely the ranger will do better than an INT based class which is odd to me.
Should have been perception imo
At levels 5-8, if an Int class has proficiency and a +4 modifier, that’s +7 to a roll, and if a ranger has proficiency, a +0 modifier and sometimes double proficiency in things related to terrains it has +3 to +6 to a roll. That’s pretty good for zero investment and a being martial class And that is more than likely considering the PHB ranger is as much, if not more, a mental skill class than a stealthy one.