Natural explorer uses double proficiency and favored enemy uses advantage specifically so they can overlap.
A ranger that studies beasts and forests has double proficiency and advantage on a ton of shit.
When is your next game? I would love to play a ranger with the totally broken version of NE you use.
So it’s either terribly useless or broken, depending on the reading snd interpretation. That’s tough. I would LOVE to play D&D with you. Me as the DM, snd you as a PHB ranger. And then vice versa. Philly?
Going back to the initial post: the class "sucks" because the exploration pillar of play is lacking in this edition. The rules for running exploration are spread between different locations in the PHB & DMG, so it's hard to see how it's meant to be run.
The reason why I say it is lacking is because anything really special the Ranger has can be overshadowed by proficiency in Survival. Survival in this edition is a combination of survival in heat, desert, & cold; hunting; tracking; fishing; mountaineering; foraging; fire-building; direction sense; navigation; and weather sense (These are skills from Wilderness Survival Guide (1e)). So it's fair to assume that anybody with proficiency in survival is good at nearly anything in the wilderness, and given it's fairly likely that 1 player out of 4-6 players will pick survival as one of their proficiencies, Wilderness challenges become trivial. Ranger gives bonuses to these rolls, but given how this aspect of the game is a fairly easy challenge and quite simple, the buffs which the class is based around are underused, and sometimes irrelevant.
Furthermore, the Outlander background circumvents a lot of aspects of the Survival proficiency as is. Automatically being able to feed up to 5 people and yourself regardless of your environment is ignoring a large challenge with the wilderness.
TL;DR: Rangers are bad because the aspect of the game they are based around is underdeveloped & clunky.
Going back to the initial post: the class "sucks" because the exploration pillar of play is lacking in this edition. The rules for running exploration are spread between different locations in the PHB & DMG, so it's hard to see how it's meant to be run.
The reason why I say it is lacking is because anything really special the Ranger has can be overshadowed by proficiency in Survival. Survival in this edition is a combination of survival in heat, desert, & cold; hunting; tracking; fishing; mountaineering; foraging; fire-building; direction sense; navigation; and weather sense (These are skills from Wilderness Survival Guide (1e)). So it's fair to assume that anybody with proficiency in survival is good at nearly anything in the wilderness, and given it's fairly likely that 1 player out of 4-6 players will pick survival as one of their proficiencies, Wilderness challenges become trivial. Ranger gives bonuses to these rolls, but given how this aspect of the game is a fairly easy challenge and quite simple, the buffs which the class is based around are underused, and sometimes irrelevant.
Furthermore, the Outlander background circumvents a lot of aspects of the Survival proficiency as is. Automatically being able to feed up to 5 people and yourself regardless of your environment is ignoring a large challenge with the wilderness.
TL;DR: Rangers are bad because the aspect of the game they are based around is underdeveloped & clunky.
This is basically what it boils down to....
The DMG gives you a lot of options to run exploration but they mostly boil down to checks (foraging, exhaustion checks for extreme environments), Delaying you getting to your next story beat (Getting Lost, Random Encounters), or imposing DIS on perception checks (Rain, Wind, etc..). These, to me at least, feel like busy work....something that most players I have had would not engage with readily. Combat and Social situations have a multitude of different paths to take potentially while this feels more like "we just need to get through it".
The only real engaging ones are the Weird Locales section and the Wilderness Hazards....both of which the ranger abilities do not touch or completely nullify. I genuinely find those interesting those sections are far too short with too few options.
No. They aren't necessarily two so alien and different things that the knowledge can't overlap? what is with this all or nothing attitude with you? If it comes from the kind of area that you know well. Your going to know that it feeds on certain kinds of things in that ecosystem. That's only natural. People that Study various area's and various animals do not do that to mutual exclusion. Your also making the extremely bad assumption that the Intelligence check they were making about that Animal Wasn't a NATURE check. Which would still apply for Natural Explorer.
But the thought that a Nature Check is an Intelligence check and that by sheer basic logic that Natural Explorer knowing a Terrain and nature involving Intelligence that you would know about the animals and their Eatting habits and such when you put them together did you? That's just one of the many ways they work together that your saying it doesn't work together.
And I hate to tell you this but your outright wrong on all levels in this regard. NE DOES NOT just apply to Survival like you seem to want to force it, It specifically has no set Skill that it does apply to. It applies to ALL check's that involve that Geographical Region Type that has Proficiency that would Apply. so that INTELLIGENCE based NATURE CHECK works which is all about KNOWING about ANIMALS is applicable by RaW, By RaI, and By Logic no matter how many times that you say it doesn't and try to give excuses and point to other abilities for it to not work. Your flat out wrong when you say it doesn't apply. It does. particularly when your saying it doesn't apply to animals that come from that Area. Because if you have Nature. You know about Animals in that Area and all areas. NE only enhances this so that you know Even more about animals in your prefered areas than animals outside of it. And it works for the SAME EXACT REASON that Favored Foe would work. A Bonus to types of Checks for certain types of things based upon the choice you made for it.
I never suggested in only applies to Survival, I understand it has the potential to apply to a lot of skills. Maybe the problem is I don't understand the limits of what you think NE can do, because it seems like what you think is "My favored terrain is the forest, therefore I know EVERYTHING about ALL things that exist in the forest. I KNOW every animal, plant, insect, and flower. I know that bird over there is called [species] and that it eats these specific fruits and that it has a life span of x and it has an average of this many offspring every 6 months and that these are the predators it has and this is what its shit looks like and this is how it makes its nest and literally anything you want to know about it I can roll with expertise. Oh and I can do the same for EVERY creature here." Correct me if I am wrong
Can you provide an example of what you mean by "using favored terrain on creatures or using favored enemy to provide bonus on Region based checks"?
Using favored terrain on creatures.
example 1 poison(venom) harvesting from a creature living in the area. Desert ranger- Scorpions. underdark- Spiders. Forests- flying snake.
example two Tracking out side the terrain. A polar bear gets loose from the zoo. a artic Ranger would know its habits and be better able to predict where it would go even if he dose not have beasts for favored enemy.
A ranger from the forests might smell burning meat and realize its a deer because that's what is commonly cooked in the area they are from.
A forest ranger Might be better able to recognize an arrow from a tribe of goblins because they use clay instead of obsidian for their arrows.
Using Favored enemy on terrain.
A beast ranger would know about diets and things smells that attract creatures. Ranger Has studied cats so he also learned about catnip (growing locations, smells, Other uses) . ranger has studied deer so he knows about mint (growing locations, smells, Other uses) .
Favored enemey Fey. would know about all plants that might be harvested to Provide protection against charm.
Favored enemy Celestial would know about Elysiums different layers.
Favored enemy Fiends. Might know the location of silver mines for weapons and Holy water creation.
favored enemy elementals might be able to understand a cave structure integrity near a volcano even if he's never been in one. Why? because he's seen what a fire or stone elemental passing through rocks does to the cave structure.
example 1 poison(venom) harvesting from a creature living in the area. Desert ranger- Scorpions. underdark- Spiders. Forests- flying snake.
example two Tracking out side the terrain. A polar bear gets loose from the zoo. a artic Ranger would know its habits and be better able to predict where it would go even if he dose not have beasts for favored enemy. These first two are stepping all over the toes of Favored Enemy Beast, so that's a no.
A ranger from the forests might smell burning meat and realize its a deer because that's what is commonly cooked in the area they are from. I would argue pretty much any adventurer would recognize the smell of deer
A forest ranger Might be better able to recognize an arrow from a tribe of goblins because they use clay instead of obsidian for their arrows. Are goblins a favored enemy? If not, then no to this too
A beast ranger would know about diets and things smells that attract creatures. Ranger Has studied cats so he also learned about catnip (growing locations, smells, Other uses) . ranger has studied deer so he knows about mint (growing locations, smells, Other uses) . Knowing about plants or what an animal eats isn't really about the terrain, again, this just sounds like something you need Favered Enemy Beast for
Favored enemey Fey. would know about all plants that might be harvested to Provide protection against charm. Why? There is no logical connection to make that claim
Favored enemy Celestial would know about Elysiums different layers. Maybe
Favored enemy Fiends. Might know the location of silver mines for weapons and Holy water creation. I will grant you that they would know silver and holy water can be used on them, I am NOT gonna say you know the location of either of those things short of knowing temples would have holy water
favored enemy elementals might be able to understand a cave structure integrity near a volcano even if he's never been in one. Why? because he's seen what a fire or stone elemental passing through rocks does to the cave structure. Nope, saying they understand "cave integrity and structures" because they know that moving through stone is something an earth elemental can do is nonsense. ESPECIALLY if you tell me 'I've never actually been in a cave'
Favored Enemy and Favored Foe are not necessarily mutually exclusive on everything. They are allowed to overlap in various places.
Your insistence that things cannot work because it can also be used by a different ability, even a different ability from the same class does not just outright invalidate various examples. There are reasons they can be covered by more than one thing. Primeval awareness and Favored Foe cover some of the same things depending on your choices. It's also easy to argue that the reason that Primeval awareness works better in your chosen terrain is because of overlapping usage between the two that turns into an augmentation of one of the abilities.
Making them overlap this much makes me wonder why bother even picking a favored enemy then? What advantages does it have to pick one that is common if every other ranger can pick an obscure one on the off chance they run into one and just get the bonus because they chose the most common terrain type?
That is the thing - they don't overlap that much, a ton of the things they talk about being NE are not NE but would require Favored Enemy Beast
Except that they wouldn't require Favored Enemy Beast... All they would need is a Nature Check which covers Beasts Already and then a specialization in an area that such a beast comes from. But you've willfully ignored that repeatedly. Even when it is blatantly pointed out to you. Your actually factually wrong when you say it does not apply under such circumstances. Natural Explorer is not just about Terrain but also of the things that are in that Terrain such as the plants that Grow There and the Animals that naturally live there.
Yes, nature checks include animals, but that doesn't mean that you can say "I automatically get expertise on all nature checks involving an animal that exist in the forest" which seems to be your position.
Neither or your examples makes any sense. You are arguing that because you have forest as a favorite, that you a) know that a type of metal grows in tress b) that there is a type of goblin that lives in the forest, c) that you somehow know that those Goblins are USING that metal?
Sorry, but C is you making a connection that simply defies logic. Have you encountered this tribe? Have you fought them? If the answer is no then you can't say C. If the answer is yes, you have encountered them AND you studied whatever thing you are saying they use this metal for THEN you can roll to see if you recognize it as a tree-growing substance.
The problem is you are ignoring any type of causal relationship to information and instead just assuming that you HAVE that knowledge automatically. That would be like saying "I took the scholar background, therefore I speak EVERY language because there are books where they would be written." and "DM is that fact written down in a book?" - DM "uhhh probably" "than I KNOW that". - No, you don't. You have to have a logical reason as to WHY you know something. You can't just claim that EVERYTHING that happens in a forest you know about.
It is the exact same problem with your second example. You are just claiming you would know things. a) "Favored Foe is going to tell you the god that they worshipped" b) "and things like the fact that they have been Exiled from a marauding band of Roving Goblinoids primarily found in the plains and mountains much farther to the west" c) "and that their God is considered an Affront to their kind by the others"
You get a) but not fully the way you describe it. You know the deity that MOST goblins believe in, or if goblins are religious, but if the deity a particular tribe worships is NOT the one MOST goblins worship, no - you don't get to just know that. b) this is SUPER SPECIFIC to A tribe - there is 0 reason why Favored Foe would provide that level of detail. c) in other words this SPECIFIC tribe DOES worship a weird deity that most goblins don't, so unless you have had extensive interactions with that tribe, no, you don't know that they worship this other deity. The only part of that you would know is once you have LEARNED that they worship this weird deity, you would know that most goblins would find that an affront.
It doesn't defy logic. Your need to hate on this ability. That's what defies logic.
Religion is still an Intelligence Roll (which NE and Favored Foe can both be applied to if you have proficiency in it). which your ignoring. which if you know about Goblins because they are your favored foe. You get to know more about. Things like what I mentioned. That's what the Religion check is for. But your going to ignore that Again Clearly. Because anything to do with Checks that doesn't agree with you. That goes out the window.
You seem adamantly against most things skill based if it doesn't fit. Or against applying things to those skills when they should apply.
At this point I have to ask Why?
Is it because you don't really use the Skills except for the basic most combat oriented ones in your games, Or that you don't understand the things that different ones Cover?
Are you just unaware or unwilling to make the connections?
I'm being Serious here. What is really going on?
Because there is a lot of disconnects in your logic that goes against what the rules support that seems to be growing the deeper into this anybody goes. I mean I could make a list of the Intelligence and Wisdom Skills and what even just the books says that they cover i that's what it Takes. Are you Telling me I really need to go that Far? Because if that's what your telling me that is what I will do. Because the Cold Hard Reality is that nothing that I said in my post goes Against their related Skills. And what Natural Explore and Favored Foe do in decently large part is add on to what those skills already do.
What's going on here is that you provided two examples, I gave clear cut explanations of why what you are saying is providing an omnipotent level of power to the ability and you then provide no justification or push back on my response but rather start whining about generalities found in the book. Let's take just part of the above:
"Favored Foe is going to tell you the god that they worshipped and things like the fact that they have been Exiled from a marauding band of Roving Goblinoids primarily found in the plains and mountains much farther to the west and that their God is considered an Affront to their kind by the others"
this is SUPER SPECIFIC to A tribe - there is 0 reason why Favored Foe would provide that level of detail
So you and your party are walking through the forest and you find some arrows in a tree, you look at one, explain to me how the expletive Favored Foe allows you to know the this is an arrow from a group of goblins that have been exiled from "from a marauding band of Roving Goblinoids primarily found in the plains and mountains much farther to the west" and bonus points for how you know that the REASON they were exiled is their deity is an affront to these roving goblinoids?
Natural explorer uses double proficiency and favored enemy uses advantage specifically so they can overlap.
A ranger that studies beasts and forests has double proficiency and advantage on a ton of shit.
When is your next game? I would love to play a ranger with the totally broken version of NE you use.
So it’s either terribly useless or broken, depending on the reading snd interpretation. That’s tough. I would LOVE to play D&D with you. Me as the DM, snd you as a PHB ranger. And then vice versa. Philly?
I would be happy to play a one shot with you and anyone else in this conversation.
Natural explorer uses double proficiency and favored enemy uses advantage specifically so they can overlap.
A ranger that studies beasts and forests has double proficiency and advantage on a ton of shit.
When is your next game? I would love to play a ranger with the totally broken version of NE you use.
So it’s either terribly useless or broken, depending on the reading snd interpretation. That’s tough. I would LOVE to play D&D with you. Me as the DM, snd you as a PHB ranger. And then vice versa. Philly?
I would be happy to play a one shot with you and anyone else in this conversation.
No. They aren't necessarily two so alien and different things that the knowledge can't overlap? what is with this all or nothing attitude with you? If it comes from the kind of area that you know well. Your going to know that it feeds on certain kinds of things in that ecosystem. That's only natural. People that Study various area's and various animals do not do that to mutual exclusion. Your also making the extremely bad assumption that the Intelligence check they were making about that Animal Wasn't a NATURE check. Which would still apply for Natural Explorer.
But the thought that a Nature Check is an Intelligence check and that by sheer basic logic that Natural Explorer knowing a Terrain and nature involving Intelligence that you would know about the animals and their Eatting habits and such when you put them together did you? That's just one of the many ways they work together that your saying it doesn't work together.
And I hate to tell you this but your outright wrong on all levels in this regard. NE DOES NOT just apply to Survival like you seem to want to force it, It specifically has no set Skill that it does apply to. It applies to ALL check's that involve that Geographical Region Type that has Proficiency that would Apply. so that INTELLIGENCE based NATURE CHECK works which is all about KNOWING about ANIMALS is applicable by RaW, By RaI, and By Logic no matter how many times that you say it doesn't and try to give excuses and point to other abilities for it to not work. Your flat out wrong when you say it doesn't apply. It does. particularly when your saying it doesn't apply to animals that come from that Area. Because if you have Nature. You know about Animals in that Area and all areas. NE only enhances this so that you know Even more about animals in your prefered areas than animals outside of it. And it works for the SAME EXACT REASON that Favored Foe would work. A Bonus to types of Checks for certain types of things based upon the choice you made for it.
I never suggested in only applies to Survival, I understand it has the potential to apply to a lot of skills. Maybe the problem is I don't understand the limits of what you think NE can do, because it seems like what you think is "My favored terrain is the forest, therefore I know EVERYTHING about ALL things that exist in the forest. I KNOW every animal, plant, insect, and flower. I know that bird over there is called [species] and that it eats these specific fruits and that it has a life span of x and it has an average of this many offspring every 6 months and that these are the predators it has and this is what its shit looks like and this is how it makes its nest and literally anything you want to know about it I can roll with expertise. Oh and I can do the same for EVERY creature here." Correct me if I am wrong
It's not just that I think this. This is what things like Skills actually mean. If you can roll well and beat certain DC's. You do potentially know EVERYTHING that has to do with those things. And natural Explorer makes it more likely for you to know EVERYTHING and how to use it. That is what happens with the interaction between the two.
I have seen characters functionally just because of skill rolls. Litteraly just because the roll is allowed because you possess proficiency and/or skill points in these skills over various versions of D&D where characters do effectively know it all. 3.x/PF actually has builds built around this very concept. They aren't as popular because they tend to not be good at combat but that's it's own thing.
And it works to lesser extent This still works in 5e as well. Just without Most of the supporting feats and other features that make it something truely broken. The Streamlined nature of 5e means that you potentially know everything about that subject if you just know the right skill or set of skills. It doesn't even take a massive modifier to accomplish this a lot of times. But a large modifier makes it more likely.
The effect of this is mitigated in the most commonly over boosted skills of Stealth and Perception. But this really kind of goes overboard when it comes to knowledges. Particularly when Functional Expertise is involved, this becomes even more likely. A level 5 character with Functional Expertise can potentially make even the hardest checks in the games with luck just because that becomes a functionally +10 Modifier (assuming a +4 in the proper attribute). And will make most lower DC's and at level 5, which Most DLC's will be lower not just at lower level but throughout the game overall. 20 is a very common DC that is usually considered somewhat difficulty with 25 and 30 being generally very rare or even almost unseen in most circumstances. And we can all make characters that can make a DC 20 basically a 50/50 shot.
All of This Is the Core System that Natural Explorer and Favored Foe Builds on to in a situational but expanding capacity. They both make it more likely for you to know all of that various knowledge and they do it in a way that specifically makes them stackable rather than mutually exclusive. It may take the right situation to do it. Such as Dealing with Goblins particular to a certain Region that is your Favored Terrain with Goblins as one of your Favored Enemies. But you don't have to meet them in that Terrain to get this massive advantage. But what it can quickly and easily turn into is a matter of you knowing just about everything about them with just proficiency in a few knowledges like Nature, Religion, and History for example. The Ranger can litterally turn into the DM's In Character Information Dump Tool in these circumstances as long as they don't completely blow the roll. And a few DM's looking at the combination and likely hood of them passing it might not even bother with the roll at all and just give the information out.
Neither or your examples makes any sense. You are arguing that because you have forest as a favorite, that you a) know that a type of metal grows in tress b) that there is a type of goblin that lives in the forest, c) that you somehow know that those Goblins are USING that metal?
Sorry, but C is you making a connection that simply defies logic. Have you encountered this tribe? Have you fought them? If the answer is no then you can't say C. If the answer is yes, you have encountered them AND you studied whatever thing you are saying they use this metal for THEN you can roll to see if you recognize it as a tree-growing substance.
The problem is you are ignoring any type of causal relationship to information and instead just assuming that you HAVE that knowledge automatically. That would be like saying "I took the scholar background, therefore I speak EVERY language because there are books where they would be written." and "DM is that fact written down in a book?" - DM "uhhh probably" "than I KNOW that". - No, you don't. You have to have a logical reason as to WHY you know something. You can't just claim that EVERYTHING that happens in a forest you know about.
It is the exact same problem with your second example. You are just claiming you would know things. a) "Favored Foe is going to tell you the god that they worshipped" b) "and things like the fact that they have been Exiled from a marauding band of Roving Goblinoids primarily found in the plains and mountains much farther to the west" c) "and that their God is considered an Affront to their kind by the others"
You get a) but not fully the way you describe it. You know the deity that MOST goblins believe in, or if goblins are religious, but if the deity a particular tribe worships is NOT the one MOST goblins worship, no - you don't get to just know that. b) this is SUPER SPECIFIC to A tribe - there is 0 reason why Favored Foe would provide that level of detail. c) in other words this SPECIFIC tribe DOES worship a weird deity that most goblins don't, so unless you have had extensive interactions with that tribe, no, you don't know that they worship this other deity. The only part of that you would know is once you have LEARNED that they worship this weird deity, you would know that most goblins would find that an affront.
It doesn't defy logic. Your need to hate on this ability. That's what defies logic.
Religion is still an Intelligence Roll (which NE and Favored Foe can both be applied to if you have proficiency in it). which your ignoring. which if you know about Goblins because they are your favored foe. You get to know more about. Things like what I mentioned. That's what the Religion check is for. But your going to ignore that Again Clearly. Because anything to do with Checks that doesn't agree with you. That goes out the window.
You seem adamantly against most things skill based if it doesn't fit. Or against applying things to those skills when they should apply.
At this point I have to ask Why?
Is it because you don't really use the Skills except for the basic most combat oriented ones in your games, Or that you don't understand the things that different ones Cover?
Are you just unaware or unwilling to make the connections?
I'm being Serious here. What is really going on?
Because there is a lot of disconnects in your logic that goes against what the rules support that seems to be growing the deeper into this anybody goes. I mean I could make a list of the Intelligence and Wisdom Skills and what even just the books says that they cover i that's what it Takes. Are you Telling me I really need to go that Far? Because if that's what your telling me that is what I will do. Because the Cold Hard Reality is that nothing that I said in my post goes Against their related Skills. And what Natural Explore and Favored Foe do in decently large part is add on to what those skills already do.
What's going on here is that you provided two examples, I gave clear cut explanations of why what you are saying is providing an omnipotent level of power to the ability and you then provide no justification or push back on my response but rather start whining about generalities found in the book. Let's take just part of the above:
"Favored Foe is going to tell you the god that they worshipped and things like the fact that they have been Exiled from a marauding band of Roving Goblinoids primarily found in the plains and mountains much farther to the west and that their God is considered an Affront to their kind by the others"
this is SUPER SPECIFIC to A tribe - there is 0 reason why Favored Foe would provide that level of detail
So you and your party are walking through the forest and you find some arrows in a tree, you look at one, explain to me how the expletive Favored Foe allows you to know the this is an arrow from a group of goblins that have been exiled from "from a marauding band of Roving Goblinoids primarily found in the plains and mountains much farther to the west" and bonus points for how you know that the REASON they were exiled is their deity is an affront to these roving goblinoids?
The Only thing I didn't list in these Descriptions is The Functional Skills tied to it.
Being Exiled From that Other Group. Could come from one of two different ones. It could come from History. Or it could come from Religion.
Why both you ask? Because it functionally looks at the same thing from two different angles concerning the origins of the single group. Those Origins in Particular. Being Splintered off From a different Group in a different geographical region that they came from.
Religion looks at it purely from the angle of the dispute between the beliefs in the gods and the Rifts between those gods. Forcing the Followers to be Exiled. Because you know the gods, you may know Roughly Regional things about their Followers if they are found primariy in one place.
From a History perspective. You would know that there was a rift between these two groups and one was Driven out. You'd know that it was over Religious Differences but you'd be looking at it more from the matter of HIstorical Events than belief in those Gods. So you'd know historically this one group that was located in a different place had a fracturing and those that were driven out then moved into the Forest Area when that wasn't where they originally were from and then you know particulars that make them different because your more focused on them rather than the continued existence of the Goblins that they came from.
Favored Foe would apply simply because they are Goblins and Favored Foe means that you learn all things Goblin about all Groups of them that you can no matter where they are from. So your Argument about Favored Foe not Applying to a group of Goblins to the West. this is false. Favored Foe is a good reason to know about the Goblins to the West as well even if you haven't been there. Simply Because they are Goblins. One of your informational Focuses due specifically to choosing Goblin as your Favored Foe. It is not too much detail. It is very sparse detail that I gave.
Forest Would Apply because we are talking in particular about these forest Goblins. That not only have an effect on the local ecology through various means and even uses for some of it. They're functioning primarily only with that region functionally imbeds them in everything to do with that region because of the impact they have on it and the way they sustain themselves from it. So your going to know their hunting habits. The animals and creatures they tend to avoid. Details about how harmonious they are with the environment or they are a blight weakening it. Etc when you consider them through the lens of various skills such as nature, Survival, History, And or Perhaps a nontraditional use of Insight. We don't have things like knowledge Local in 5th Edition or that would encompass a lot of it all on it's own. But since it doesn't we have to find rough analogue's in the other skills.
Just because I make a one line mention of a couple of other Terrains. Doesn't change any of this. Functionally those other Terrains are just descriptive words in this instance. They mean nothing other than something like "insert generic geographic descriptor here" unless you happen to have Plains or Mountains as another of your favored Terrains. Then potentially not only do you know about these Forest Goblins because of your interest specifically in goblins and/or your focus on Forests. Then you would also potentially know a lot about the Other Band of Marauding Goblins in quite detailed fashion as well even though that knowledge would be mostly irrelevant when dealing with these particular forest goblins.
A lot of what Exploration covers, while people ignore it, is The World Building. World Building is Effectively details about all these various world building connections that exist for whatever game world you happen to be playing in. Not only in a self Contained Way like the Details about a Specific set of Ruins but also how those various Ruins and Towns and Wild Groups and Regions all interconnect and relate to each other. It exists even if we ignore it. But sadly it is mostly ignored. Natural Explorer and Favored Foe in part are meant to exploit these connections of various kinds. They help you not only to help you to function in various ways because of them and track things. But also tap into all those various connections for a variety of knowledges and uses. It is Powerful and deep when it's gotten into. But it rarely Combat Capable unless you happen to need to ambush somebody and it leads you to know a good place. Or a mortal Enemy you can convince to attack said group or something.
For those DM's that like to make big grand worlds with lots of things going on in the background and pages and pages of history for all the various regions. Rangers with the Right Natural Explorer Terrains or Favored Foes is just one of the good ways to expose players and characters to some of that on top of them having mechanical advantages to the Ranger as well.
Can you provide an example of what you mean by "using favored terrain on creatures or using favored enemy to provide bonus on Region based checks"?
Using favored terrain on creatures.
example 1 poison(venom) harvesting from a creature living in the area. Desert ranger- Scorpions. underdark- Spiders. Forests- flying snake.
example two Tracking out side the terrain. A polar bear gets loose from the zoo. a artic Ranger would know its habits and be better able to predict where it would go even if he dose not have beasts for favored enemy.
A ranger from the forests might smell burning meat and realize its a deer because that's what is commonly cooked in the area they are from.
A forest ranger Might be better able to recognize an arrow from a tribe of goblins because they use clay instead of obsidian for their arrows.
Using Favored enemy on terrain.
A beast ranger would know about diets and things smells that attract creatures. Ranger Has studied cats so he also learned about catnip (growing locations, smells, Other uses) . ranger has studied deer so he knows about mint (growing locations, smells, Other uses) .
Favored enemey Fey. would know about all plants that might be harvested to Provide protection against charm.
Favored enemy Celestial would know about Elysiums different layers.
Favored enemy Fiends. Might know the location of silver mines for weapons and Holy water creation.
favored enemy elementals might be able to understand a cave structure integrity near a volcano even if he's never been in one. Why? because he's seen what a fire or stone elemental passing through rocks does to the cave structure.
example 1 poison(venom) harvesting from a creature living in the area. Desert ranger- Scorpions. underdark- Spiders. Forests- flying snake.
example two Tracking out side the terrain. A polar bear gets loose from the zoo. a artic Ranger would know its habits and be better able to predict where it would go even if he dose not have beasts for favored enemy. These first two are stepping all over the toes of Favored Enemy Beast, so that's a no.
A ranger from the forests might smell burning meat and realize its a deer because that's what is commonly cooked in the area they are from. I would argue pretty much any adventurer would recognize the smell of deer
A forest ranger Might be better able to recognize an arrow from a tribe of goblins because they use clay instead of obsidian for their arrows. Are goblins a favored enemy? If not, then no to this too
A beast ranger would know about diets and things smells that attract creatures. Ranger Has studied cats so he also learned about catnip (growing locations, smells, Other uses) . ranger has studied deer so he knows about mint (growing locations, smells, Other uses) . Knowing about plants or what an animal eats isn't really about the terrain, again, this just sounds like something you need Favered Enemy Beast for
Favored enemey Fey. would know about all plants that might be harvested to Provide protection against charm. Why? There is no logical connection to make that claim
Favored enemy Celestial would know about Elysiums different layers. Maybe
Favored enemy Fiends. Might know the location of silver mines for weapons and Holy water creation. I will grant you that they would know silver and holy water can be used on them, I am NOT gonna say you know the location of either of those things short of knowing temples would have holy water
favored enemy elementals might be able to understand a cave structure integrity near a volcano even if he's never been in one. Why? because he's seen what a fire or stone elemental passing through rocks does to the cave structure. Nope, saying they understand "cave integrity and structures" because they know that moving through stone is something an earth elemental can do is nonsense. ESPECIALLY if you tell me 'I've never actually been in a cave'
Favored Enemy and Favored Foe are not necessarily mutually exclusive on everything. They are allowed to overlap in various places.
Your insistence that things cannot work because it can also be used by a different ability, even a different ability from the same class does not just outright invalidate various examples. There are reasons they can be covered by more than one thing. Primeval awareness and Favored Foe cover some of the same things depending on your choices. It's also easy to argue that the reason that Primeval awareness works better in your chosen terrain is because of overlapping usage between the two that turns into an augmentation of one of the abilities.
Making them overlap this much makes me wonder why bother even picking a favored enemy then? What advantages does it have to pick one that is common if every other ranger can pick an obscure one on the off chance they run into one and just get the bonus because they chose the most common terrain type?
That is the thing - they don't overlap that much, a ton of the things they talk about being NE are not NE but would require Favored Enemy Beast
Except that they wouldn't require Favored Enemy Beast... All they would need is a Nature Check which covers Beasts Already and then a specialization in an area that such a beast comes from. But you've willfully ignored that repeatedly. Even when it is blatantly pointed out to you. Your actually factually wrong when you say it does not apply under such circumstances. Natural Explorer is not just about Terrain but also of the things that are in that Terrain such as the plants that Grow There and the Animals that naturally live there.
Yes, nature checks include animals, but that doesn't mean that you can say "I automatically get expertise on all nature checks involving an animal that exist in the forest" which seems to be your position.
Nature Applies to Animals. Favored Terrain Applies to any knowledge that has to do with Forests. When you put Nature with Forest. You automatically get "Applies to any knowledge of Animals that have to do with Forests."
So yes. It does automatically apply. That's exactly what it means. Because your Making a Nature Roll and it's being Modified by Forest. It is a Forest Animal.
If Instead you have Forest God.
You would take Forest from the Terrain Portion of Natural Explorer. You would apply it to Proficiency in Religion. Because Religion focuses On Gods and Religious Practices. Forest God means in this instence "Applies to Religion (Gods) and Forests".
It is literally that simple.
Litterally all your Doing is Taking any particular Skill that you have Proficiency in that is either based on an Intelligence Roll or a Wisdom Roll and Modifying it by the type of Terrain to cover your knowledge in that thing.
If we Instead Switch all of this To Desert Temple.
As long as you have Desert as a Terrain. you would know about things to do with any skills that fit the criteria that would modified by that Terrain to get the bonus. in this Case having Desert as a Terrain and Talking about a Temple the Most likely choices are going to be either HIstory or Religion. Meaning that you going to have a bonus either on knowing the history of the place and who built it or the religious practices that took place there. Or both if you have proficiency in both skills. Also, Either of them might even tell you why if that's something that can be known and it actually pertains to one of those checks. It Doesn't Always or isn't always known. Or that Answer might be buried behind a different skill most would never Expect like Arcana for instance.
But if We switch it to Desert Animal. Such as a Scorpion or a rattlesnake. Then It's going to be Nature that Gets the Bonus. Because Nature is Knowlege of Animals and Favored Terrain is going to give the bonus because it's a Desert Animal specifically.
If we Switch it from that to Desert Scavenging. The Roll that Natural Explorer will enhance if you have the proficiency in it, is going to be Survival. Because Survival covers Scavenging and Foraging and Tracking.
This is exactly how Natural Explorer works in regards to giving Functional Expertise to these various skills.
This is basically a response to the last three or so replies. There seems to be a difference in what each of us thinks a roll can do. I think there are limits to what a roll can tell you, but you seem to think if you just roll high enough you can get any level of detail you want. Am I wrong?
To me, having a favored enemy in goblins will let you know alot about goblins, but to know on a micro level that these goblins are from the west and there was rift and they have been exiled because of their religion is a level of specificity that a roll no matter how good will never tell you. You could be level 20 with a +17, hit a nat 20 for a total of 37 and you still won’t know that. The only way for you to know that is if this was some MAJOR historical event. Something like that all goblins used to be part of one tribe and that they broke off. This group now lives here, that group there etc. But short of a massive event, knowing that a dozen goblins left their tribe just doesn’t make sense.
its the story of the adventurer who falls off a cliff. He says to his DM “I start flapping my arms” - ok make a dex check “nat 20 - 25 total” - Can he fly now? Rolls can’t do EVERYTHING.
I think we are starting to have an understanding. How about this, Frank, Fateless, some of these others, list a handful of questions you would ask in game I can see if I think that NE would apply to those questions and I will respond with if it would, and what a successful roll (regardless if NE applies) would tell you.
I think we are starting to have an understanding. How about this, Frank, Fateless, some of these others, list a handful of questions you would ask in game I can see if I think that NE would apply to those questions and I will respond with if it would, and what a successful roll (regardless if NE applies) would tell you.
I think we are starting to have an understanding. How about this, Frank, Fateless, some of these others, list a handful of questions you would ask in game I can see if I think that NE would apply to those questions and I will respond with if it would, and what a successful roll (regardless if NE applies) would tell you.
I think ranger and some other things are worse/better probably because the PHB was running late on it's deadline and that's why we have SCAG which most likely was supposed to be part of the PHB, and other unsatisfactory things, like bad capstones or weak subclasses.
I think they purposely tried to leave big parts of the game open to creativity, communication, and imagination and it failed with a large chunk of the players.
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So it’s either terribly useless or broken, depending on the reading snd interpretation. That’s tough. I would LOVE to play D&D with you. Me as the DM, snd you as a PHB ranger. And then vice versa. Philly?
Going back to the initial post: the class "sucks" because the exploration pillar of play is lacking in this edition. The rules for running exploration are spread between different locations in the PHB & DMG, so it's hard to see how it's meant to be run.
The reason why I say it is lacking is because anything really special the Ranger has can be overshadowed by proficiency in Survival. Survival in this edition is a combination of survival in heat, desert, & cold; hunting; tracking; fishing; mountaineering; foraging; fire-building; direction sense; navigation; and weather sense (These are skills from Wilderness Survival Guide (1e)). So it's fair to assume that anybody with proficiency in survival is good at nearly anything in the wilderness, and given it's fairly likely that 1 player out of 4-6 players will pick survival as one of their proficiencies, Wilderness challenges become trivial. Ranger gives bonuses to these rolls, but given how this aspect of the game is a fairly easy challenge and quite simple, the buffs which the class is based around are underused, and sometimes irrelevant.
Furthermore, the Outlander background circumvents a lot of aspects of the Survival proficiency as is. Automatically being able to feed up to 5 people and yourself regardless of your environment is ignoring a large challenge with the wilderness.
TL;DR: Rangers are bad because the aspect of the game they are based around is underdeveloped & clunky.
This is basically what it boils down to....
The DMG gives you a lot of options to run exploration but they mostly boil down to checks (foraging, exhaustion checks for extreme environments), Delaying you getting to your next story beat (Getting Lost, Random Encounters), or imposing DIS on perception checks (Rain, Wind, etc..). These, to me at least, feel like busy work....something that most players I have had would not engage with readily. Combat and Social situations have a multitude of different paths to take potentially while this feels more like "we just need to get through it".
The only real engaging ones are the Weird Locales section and the Wilderness Hazards....both of which the ranger abilities do not touch or completely nullify. I genuinely find those interesting those sections are far too short with too few options.
I never suggested in only applies to Survival, I understand it has the potential to apply to a lot of skills. Maybe the problem is I don't understand the limits of what you think NE can do, because it seems like what you think is "My favored terrain is the forest, therefore I know EVERYTHING about ALL things that exist in the forest. I KNOW every animal, plant, insect, and flower. I know that bird over there is called [species] and that it eats these specific fruits and that it has a life span of x and it has an average of this many offspring every 6 months and that these are the predators it has and this is what its shit looks like and this is how it makes its nest and literally anything you want to know about it I can roll with expertise. Oh and I can do the same for EVERY creature here."
Correct me if I am wrong
Yes, nature checks include animals, but that doesn't mean that you can say "I automatically get expertise on all nature checks involving an animal that exist in the forest" which seems to be your position.
What's going on here is that you provided two examples, I gave clear cut explanations of why what you are saying is providing an omnipotent level of power to the ability and you then provide no justification or push back on my response but rather start whining about generalities found in the book. Let's take just part of the above:
"Favored Foe is going to tell you the god that they worshipped and things like the fact that they have been Exiled from a marauding band of Roving Goblinoids primarily found in the plains and mountains much farther to the west and that their God is considered an Affront to their kind by the others"
this is SUPER SPECIFIC to A tribe - there is 0 reason why Favored Foe would provide that level of detail
So you and your party are walking through the forest and you find some arrows in a tree, you look at one, explain to me how the expletive Favored Foe allows you to know the this is an arrow from a group of goblins that have been exiled from "from a marauding band of Roving Goblinoids primarily found in the plains and mountains much farther to the west" and bonus points for how you know that the REASON they were exiled is their deity is an affront to these roving goblinoids?
I would be happy to play a one shot with you and anyone else in this conversation.
Nice.
Lets get some DMs going and we can plan a game, I am on the east coast
It's not just that I think this. This is what things like Skills actually mean. If you can roll well and beat certain DC's. You do potentially know EVERYTHING that has to do with those things. And natural Explorer makes it more likely for you to know EVERYTHING and how to use it. That is what happens with the interaction between the two.
I have seen characters functionally just because of skill rolls. Litteraly just because the roll is allowed because you possess proficiency and/or skill points in these skills over various versions of D&D where characters do effectively know it all. 3.x/PF actually has builds built around this very concept. They aren't as popular because they tend to not be good at combat but that's it's own thing.
And it works to lesser extent This still works in 5e as well. Just without Most of the supporting feats and other features that make it something truely broken. The Streamlined nature of 5e means that you potentially know everything about that subject if you just know the right skill or set of skills. It doesn't even take a massive modifier to accomplish this a lot of times. But a large modifier makes it more likely.
The effect of this is mitigated in the most commonly over boosted skills of Stealth and Perception. But this really kind of goes overboard when it comes to knowledges. Particularly when Functional Expertise is involved, this becomes even more likely. A level 5 character with Functional Expertise can potentially make even the hardest checks in the games with luck just because that becomes a functionally +10 Modifier (assuming a +4 in the proper attribute). And will make most lower DC's and at level 5, which Most DLC's will be lower not just at lower level but throughout the game overall. 20 is a very common DC that is usually considered somewhat difficulty with 25 and 30 being generally very rare or even almost unseen in most circumstances. And we can all make characters that can make a DC 20 basically a 50/50 shot.
All of This Is the Core System that Natural Explorer and Favored Foe Builds on to in a situational but expanding capacity. They both make it more likely for you to know all of that various knowledge and they do it in a way that specifically makes them stackable rather than mutually exclusive. It may take the right situation to do it. Such as Dealing with Goblins particular to a certain Region that is your Favored Terrain with Goblins as one of your Favored Enemies. But you don't have to meet them in that Terrain to get this massive advantage. But what it can quickly and easily turn into is a matter of you knowing just about everything about them with just proficiency in a few knowledges like Nature, Religion, and History for example. The Ranger can litterally turn into the DM's In Character Information Dump Tool in these circumstances as long as they don't completely blow the roll. And a few DM's looking at the combination and likely hood of them passing it might not even bother with the roll at all and just give the information out.
The Only thing I didn't list in these Descriptions is The Functional Skills tied to it.
Being Exiled From that Other Group. Could come from one of two different ones. It could come from History. Or it could come from Religion.
Why both you ask? Because it functionally looks at the same thing from two different angles concerning the origins of the single group. Those Origins in Particular. Being Splintered off From a different Group in a different geographical region that they came from.
Religion looks at it purely from the angle of the dispute between the beliefs in the gods and the Rifts between those gods. Forcing the Followers to be Exiled. Because you know the gods, you may know Roughly Regional things about their Followers if they are found primariy in one place.
From a History perspective. You would know that there was a rift between these two groups and one was Driven out. You'd know that it was over Religious Differences but you'd be looking at it more from the matter of HIstorical Events than belief in those Gods. So you'd know historically this one group that was located in a different place had a fracturing and those that were driven out then moved into the Forest Area when that wasn't where they originally were from and then you know particulars that make them different because your more focused on them rather than the continued existence of the Goblins that they came from.
Favored Foe would apply simply because they are Goblins and Favored Foe means that you learn all things Goblin about all Groups of them that you can no matter where they are from. So your Argument about Favored Foe not Applying to a group of Goblins to the West. this is false. Favored Foe is a good reason to know about the Goblins to the West as well even if you haven't been there. Simply Because they are Goblins. One of your informational Focuses due specifically to choosing Goblin as your Favored Foe. It is not too much detail. It is very sparse detail that I gave.
Forest Would Apply because we are talking in particular about these forest Goblins. That not only have an effect on the local ecology through various means and even uses for some of it. They're functioning primarily only with that region functionally imbeds them in everything to do with that region because of the impact they have on it and the way they sustain themselves from it. So your going to know their hunting habits. The animals and creatures they tend to avoid. Details about how harmonious they are with the environment or they are a blight weakening it. Etc when you consider them through the lens of various skills such as nature, Survival, History, And or Perhaps a nontraditional use of Insight. We don't have things like knowledge Local in 5th Edition or that would encompass a lot of it all on it's own. But since it doesn't we have to find rough analogue's in the other skills.
Just because I make a one line mention of a couple of other Terrains. Doesn't change any of this. Functionally those other Terrains are just descriptive words in this instance. They mean nothing other than something like "insert generic geographic descriptor here" unless you happen to have Plains or Mountains as another of your favored Terrains. Then potentially not only do you know about these Forest Goblins because of your interest specifically in goblins and/or your focus on Forests. Then you would also potentially know a lot about the Other Band of Marauding Goblins in quite detailed fashion as well even though that knowledge would be mostly irrelevant when dealing with these particular forest goblins.
A lot of what Exploration covers, while people ignore it, is The World Building. World Building is Effectively details about all these various world building connections that exist for whatever game world you happen to be playing in. Not only in a self Contained Way like the Details about a Specific set of Ruins but also how those various Ruins and Towns and Wild Groups and Regions all interconnect and relate to each other. It exists even if we ignore it. But sadly it is mostly ignored. Natural Explorer and Favored Foe in part are meant to exploit these connections of various kinds. They help you not only to help you to function in various ways because of them and track things. But also tap into all those various connections for a variety of knowledges and uses. It is Powerful and deep when it's gotten into. But it rarely Combat Capable unless you happen to need to ambush somebody and it leads you to know a good place. Or a mortal Enemy you can convince to attack said group or something.
For those DM's that like to make big grand worlds with lots of things going on in the background and pages and pages of history for all the various regions. Rangers with the Right Natural Explorer Terrains or Favored Foes is just one of the good ways to expose players and characters to some of that on top of them having mechanical advantages to the Ranger as well.
Nature Applies to Animals. Favored Terrain Applies to any knowledge that has to do with Forests. When you put Nature with Forest. You automatically get "Applies to any knowledge of Animals that have to do with Forests."
So yes. It does automatically apply. That's exactly what it means. Because your Making a Nature Roll and it's being Modified by Forest. It is a Forest Animal.
If Instead you have Forest God.
You would take Forest from the Terrain Portion of Natural Explorer. You would apply it to Proficiency in Religion. Because Religion focuses On Gods and Religious Practices. Forest God means in this instence "Applies to Religion (Gods) and Forests".
It is literally that simple.
Litterally all your Doing is Taking any particular Skill that you have Proficiency in that is either based on an Intelligence Roll or a Wisdom Roll and Modifying it by the type of Terrain to cover your knowledge in that thing.
If we Instead Switch all of this To Desert Temple.
As long as you have Desert as a Terrain. you would know about things to do with any skills that fit the criteria that would modified by that Terrain to get the bonus. in this Case having Desert as a Terrain and Talking about a Temple the Most likely choices are going to be either HIstory or Religion. Meaning that you going to have a bonus either on knowing the history of the place and who built it or the religious practices that took place there. Or both if you have proficiency in both skills. Also, Either of them might even tell you why if that's something that can be known and it actually pertains to one of those checks. It Doesn't Always or isn't always known. Or that Answer might be buried behind a different skill most would never Expect like Arcana for instance.
But if We switch it to Desert Animal. Such as a Scorpion or a rattlesnake. Then It's going to be Nature that Gets the Bonus. Because Nature is Knowlege of Animals and Favored Terrain is going to give the bonus because it's a Desert Animal specifically.
If we Switch it from that to Desert Scavenging. The Roll that Natural Explorer will enhance if you have the proficiency in it, is going to be Survival. Because Survival covers Scavenging and Foraging and Tracking.
This is exactly how Natural Explorer works in regards to giving Functional Expertise to these various skills.
Ok!
I think we are starting to have an understanding. How about this, Frank, Fateless, some of these others, list a handful of questions you would ask in game I can see if I think that NE would apply to those questions and I will respond with if it would, and what a successful roll (regardless if NE applies) would tell you.
Can we start a new thread for that?
Probably a good idea
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/class-forums/ranger/107051-natural-explorer-ne
I think ranger and some other things are worse/better probably because the PHB was running late on it's deadline and that's why we have SCAG which most likely was supposed to be part of the PHB, and other unsatisfactory things, like bad capstones or weak subclasses.
Mystic v3 should be official, nuff said.
I think they purposely tried to leave big parts of the game open to creativity, communication, and imagination and it failed with a large chunk of the players.