Crzyhawk, you're applying way too generous a definition to "combat". I can think of many situations where you could cast a spell on an enemy outside of combat: prestidigitation, charm person, clairvoyance etc. Hunter's Mark is one of those that are usually used in combat but don't have to be. It can certainly be used to help track someone whether or not you plan to fight them. You could use it to help follow someone through a crowded marketplace....
They do nothing. Combat ends when there's no reason to continue tracking.
The whole reason this is even an issue is the OP was trying to rules lawyer and semantics his way to an extra d6 damage in round 1.
OK, so he applies Hunters Mark and simply keeps concentrating, either until His next Turn and he attacks, or until combat stops and they attack for real. Sounds to me like he will be able to do that, even with your Idea of combat.
They do nothing. Combat ends when there's no reason to continue tracking.
The whole reason this is even an issue is the OP was trying to rules lawyer and semantics his way to an extra d6 damage in round 1.
Do you honestly believe that the game developers envisioned combat that would go on for hours of game time? Becuase the duration for Hunter's Mark is an hour. This is obviously so that it can have uses outside of combat. Like chasing a thief through sewers or stalking a prey in a forrest.
Crzyhawk, you're applying way too generous a definition to "combat". I can think of many situations where you could cast a spell on an enemy outside of combat: prestidigitation, charm person, clairvoyance etc. Hunter's Mark is one of those that are usually used in combat but don't have to be. It can certainly be used to help track someone whether or not you plan to fight them. You could use it to help follow someone through a crowded marketplace....
Yes, and I consider that to be combat. You don't have to be killing people to be in combat.
They do nothing. Combat ends when there's no reason to continue tracking.
The whole reason this is even an issue is the OP was trying to rules lawyer and semantics his way to an extra d6 damage in round 1.
Do you honestly believe that the game developers envisioned combat that would go on for hours of game time? Becuase the duration for Hunter's Mark is an hour. This is obviously so that it can have uses outside of combat. Like chasing a thief through sewers or stalking a prey in a forrest.
yes I am aware of that. Chasing a thief is combat. Stalking prey is combat. You do not have to be killing things to be using the initiative and turns system to track actions. You can carry Hunter's Mark and not be in combat. As soon as you apply it to a target, you have engaged.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Crzyhawk, you're applying way too generous a definition to "combat". I can think of many situations where you could cast a spell on an enemy outside of combat: prestidigitation, charm person, clairvoyance etc. Hunter's Mark is one of those that are usually used in combat but don't have to be. It can certainly be used to help track someone whether or not you plan to fight them. You could use it to help follow someone through a crowded marketplace....
Yes, and I consider that to be combat. You don't have to be killing people to be in combat.
They do nothing. Combat ends when there's no reason to continue tracking.
The whole reason this is even an issue is the OP was trying to rules lawyer and semantics his way to an extra d6 damage in round 1.
Do you honestly believe that the game developers envisioned combat that would go on for hours of game time? Becuase the duration for Hunter's Mark is an hour. This is obviously so that it can have uses outside of combat. Like chasing a thief through sewers or stalking a prey in a forrest.
yes I am aware of that. Chasing a thief is combat. Stalking prey is combat. You do not have to be killing things to be using the initiative and turns system to track actions. You can carry Hunter's Mark and not be in combat. As soon as you apply it to a target, you have engaged.
According to you, but not the rules. Please keep the two seperate.
I would treat this as combat and IF they did not know you were a threat I would treat the hunters mark happening while the opponent was surprised. The definition of surprise is an opponent is not aware of a threat. In this case you are a threat and they are not aware you are a threat. IMO that is the best case scenario for you.
Whether or not you could pull this off is situational. If the party is having a chat with friends/associates while you plan to betray them and you are quietly casting from the back I would probably make surprise automatic. If it is someone you stumbled across in the dungeon and your party is sizing them up while they are sizing up your party I would probably require a stealth check while you try to quietly cast a spell from the back, if the "face" is up front talking/distracting them I would give you advantage on that. If you are up front talking to them and say "wait a minnute while I cast a spell", well they would not be surprised. If you are hiding and they have no idea, well then it is a classic surprise situation. In any case by hexing someone I would argue you are starting combat and they just don't know it.
Now what happens if you cast the hex and then wait a half hour to carry out your next attack - I personally would still rule that is all one combat, because you were maintaining a spell affect on one of the individuals the entire time and hex was the start of it. I would rule for the intervening 300 turns everyone just took what ever action they were doing (Walking around, searching, talking, hiding ....). I would also call initiative at the and enforce that count and pick it up from there whenever the battle continues.
I don't want to sit through three in-game hours of initiative split across 5 players holding different conversations while my characters socialize at a gala. You can hold a mark for a long time, and you can apply it subtly (though it is more difficult if you are casting it for the first time vs reapplying it). You can make a habit of marking notable individuals that you want to keep track of or that you think are suspicious. It isn't a strictly combat based spell.
Sometimes, a mark will initiate combat. Sometimes, it will not. Whether it does or does not is up to the DM based on the given scenario.
Crzyhawk, you're applying way too generous a definition to "combat". I can think of many situations where you could cast a spell on an enemy outside of combat: prestidigitation, charm person, clairvoyance etc. Hunter's Mark is one of those that are usually used in combat but don't have to be. It can certainly be used to help track someone whether or not you plan to fight them. You could use it to help follow someone through a crowded marketplace....
Yes, and I consider that to be combat. You don't have to be killing people to be in combat.
They do nothing. Combat ends when there's no reason to continue tracking.
The whole reason this is even an issue is the OP was trying to rules lawyer and semantics his way to an extra d6 damage in round 1.
Do you honestly believe that the game developers envisioned combat that would go on for hours of game time? Becuase the duration for Hunter's Mark is an hour. This is obviously so that it can have uses outside of combat. Like chasing a thief through sewers or stalking a prey in a forrest.
yes I am aware of that. Chasing a thief is combat. Stalking prey is combat. You do not have to be killing things to be using the initiative and turns system to track actions. You can carry Hunter's Mark and not be in combat. As soon as you apply it to a target, you have engaged.
According to you, but not the rules. Please keep the two seperate.
The rules don't say I am wrong either. They do not define when you are and not in initiative.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Yeah, but you say he wont bei able to do an additional d6 in his fist Turn. But what's the difference if he applies Hunters Mark and then waits for his next turn? Is there any advantage compared to not starting combat until the enemies notice?
Crzyhawk, you're applying way too generous a definition to "combat". I can think of many situations where you could cast a spell on an enemy outside of combat: prestidigitation, charm person, clairvoyance etc. Hunter's Mark is one of those that are usually used in combat but don't have to be. It can certainly be used to help track someone whether or not you plan to fight them. You could use it to help follow someone through a crowded marketplace....
Yes, and I consider that to be combat. You don't have to be killing people to be in combat.
They do nothing. Combat ends when there's no reason to continue tracking.
The whole reason this is even an issue is the OP was trying to rules lawyer and semantics his way to an extra d6 damage in round 1.
Do you honestly believe that the game developers envisioned combat that would go on for hours of game time? Becuase the duration for Hunter's Mark is an hour. This is obviously so that it can have uses outside of combat. Like chasing a thief through sewers or stalking a prey in a forrest.
yes I am aware of that. Chasing a thief is combat. Stalking prey is combat. You do not have to be killing things to be using the initiative and turns system to track actions. You can carry Hunter's Mark and not be in combat. As soon as you apply it to a target, you have engaged.
According to you, but not the rules. Please keep the two seperate.
The rules don't say I am wrong either. They do not define when you are and not in initiative.
Really? Chapter 9 of the PHB and pages 247-255 in the DMG disagrees with that. Yes, you are of course free to use inititative for other interactions where turn order is of importance, but you are still completely and utterly wrong in your claims that casting a spell that affects another creature starts combat or necessitates an initiative roll. Again, try to keep the actual rules of the game seperate from your own personal version of the rules when answering questions about the *actual* rules.
Crzyhawk, you're applying way too generous a definition to "combat". I can think of many situations where you could cast a spell on an enemy outside of combat: prestidigitation, charm person, clairvoyance etc. Hunter's Mark is one of those that are usually used in combat but don't have to be. It can certainly be used to help track someone whether or not you plan to fight them. You could use it to help follow someone through a crowded marketplace....
Yes, and I consider that to be combat. You don't have to be killing people to be in combat.
They do nothing. Combat ends when there's no reason to continue tracking.
The whole reason this is even an issue is the OP was trying to rules lawyer and semantics his way to an extra d6 damage in round 1.
Do you honestly believe that the game developers envisioned combat that would go on for hours of game time? Becuase the duration for Hunter's Mark is an hour. This is obviously so that it can have uses outside of combat. Like chasing a thief through sewers or stalking a prey in a forrest.
yes I am aware of that. Chasing a thief is combat. Stalking prey is combat. You do not have to be killing things to be using the initiative and turns system to track actions. You can carry Hunter's Mark and not be in combat. As soon as you apply it to a target, you have engaged.
According to you, but not the rules. Please keep the two seperate.
The rules don't say I am wrong either. They do not define when you are and not in initiative.
Really? Chapter 9 of the PHB and pages 247-255 in the DMG disagrees with that. Yes, you are of course free to use inititative for other interactions where turn order is of importance, but you are still completely and utterly wrong in your claims that casting a spell that affects another creature starts combat or necessitates an initiative roll. Again, try to keep the actual rules of the game seperate from your own personal version of the rules when answering questions about the *actual* rules.
Can you quote the specific text that disagrees with it? Not saying it isn't there, but I just read 247-255 and I don't see it.
If hex doesn't start combat, what about sleep or hold person .... or even fireball? At what point is it "combat"?
Combat starts when the DM says "roll initiative". I know that's reductive but it's the closest thing we'll get to an answer. Some DM's may say that casting any spell or taking any action (like picking a pocket) automatically starts combat but going from this and other threads I've looked at, the vast majority of people says it doesn't always. My followup question for people who believe it's automatic would be "When does it end?" What if one side runs away? What if you cast True Polymorph on someone? If you turn someone into a tree it could live for centuries. Are you "in combat" till one of you dies? Am I still in combat with kids I had fights with 50 years ago? So existential.
Crzyhawk, you're applying way too generous a definition to "combat". I can think of many situations where you could cast a spell on an enemy outside of combat: prestidigitation, charm person, clairvoyance etc. Hunter's Mark is one of those that are usually used in combat but don't have to be. It can certainly be used to help track someone whether or not you plan to fight them. You could use it to help follow someone through a crowded marketplace....
Yes, and I consider that to be combat. You don't have to be killing people to be in combat.
They do nothing. Combat ends when there's no reason to continue tracking.
The whole reason this is even an issue is the OP was trying to rules lawyer and semantics his way to an extra d6 damage in round 1.
Do you honestly believe that the game developers envisioned combat that would go on for hours of game time? Becuase the duration for Hunter's Mark is an hour. This is obviously so that it can have uses outside of combat. Like chasing a thief through sewers or stalking a prey in a forrest.
yes I am aware of that. Chasing a thief is combat. Stalking prey is combat. You do not have to be killing things to be using the initiative and turns system to track actions. You can carry Hunter's Mark and not be in combat. As soon as you apply it to a target, you have engaged.
According to you, but not the rules. Please keep the two seperate.
The rules don't say I am wrong either. They do not define when you are and not in initiative.
Really? Chapter 9 of the PHB and pages 247-255 in the DMG disagrees with that. Yes, you are of course free to use inititative for other interactions where turn order is of importance, but you are still completely and utterly wrong in your claims that casting a spell that affects another creature starts combat or necessitates an initiative roll. Again, try to keep the actual rules of the game seperate from your own personal version of the rules when answering questions about the *actual* rules.
Can you quote the specific text that disagrees with it? Not saying it isn't there, but I just read 247-255 and I don't see it.
If hex doesn't start combat, what about sleep or hold person .... or even fireball? At what point is it "combat"?
Yeah, that's not how it works. You claim that the rules agree with you and that combat starts as soon as you use a spell to affect another person. There are no such rules in the books, therefor you are wrong. The rules that deal with initiative is about combat and chases. Neither of which fall into your own weird definition of what starts it.
It is, of course, complete bollocks to claim that simply the act of casting a spell starts combat. What if I use Sleep to help a child go to bed? Do I roll initiative then? No, of course not. Again, you can play however you want but please realize that you are at this point making things up as you go along.
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Crzyhawk, you're applying way too generous a definition to "combat". I can think of many situations where you could cast a spell on an enemy outside of combat: prestidigitation, charm person, clairvoyance etc. Hunter's Mark is one of those that are usually used in combat but don't have to be. It can certainly be used to help track someone whether or not you plan to fight them. You could use it to help follow someone through a crowded marketplace....
OK, so he applies Hunters Mark and simply keeps concentrating, either until His next Turn and he attacks, or until combat stops and they attack for real. Sounds to me like he will be able to do that, even with your Idea of combat.
Citation needed. You're just making things up. You can cast spells that affect others outside of combat.
Do you honestly believe that the game developers envisioned combat that would go on for hours of game time? Becuase the duration for Hunter's Mark is an hour. This is obviously so that it can have uses outside of combat. Like chasing a thief through sewers or stalking a prey in a forrest.
Yes, and I consider that to be combat. You don't have to be killing people to be in combat.
yes I am aware of that. Chasing a thief is combat. Stalking prey is combat. You do not have to be killing things to be using the initiative and turns system to track actions. You can carry Hunter's Mark and not be in combat. As soon as you apply it to a target, you have engaged.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
According to you, but not the rules. Please keep the two seperate.
Personally I would not allow it.
I would treat this as combat and IF they did not know you were a threat I would treat the hunters mark happening while the opponent was surprised. The definition of surprise is an opponent is not aware of a threat. In this case you are a threat and they are not aware you are a threat. IMO that is the best case scenario for you.
Whether or not you could pull this off is situational. If the party is having a chat with friends/associates while you plan to betray them and you are quietly casting from the back I would probably make surprise automatic. If it is someone you stumbled across in the dungeon and your party is sizing them up while they are sizing up your party I would probably require a stealth check while you try to quietly cast a spell from the back, if the "face" is up front talking/distracting them I would give you advantage on that. If you are up front talking to them and say "wait a minnute while I cast a spell", well they would not be surprised. If you are hiding and they have no idea, well then it is a classic surprise situation. In any case by hexing someone I would argue you are starting combat and they just don't know it.
Now what happens if you cast the hex and then wait a half hour to carry out your next attack - I personally would still rule that is all one combat, because you were maintaining a spell affect on one of the individuals the entire time and hex was the start of it. I would rule for the intervening 300 turns everyone just took what ever action they were doing (Walking around, searching, talking, hiding ....). I would also call initiative at the and enforce that count and pick it up from there whenever the battle continues.
I don't want to sit through three in-game hours of initiative split across 5 players holding different conversations while my characters socialize at a gala. You can hold a mark for a long time, and you can apply it subtly (though it is more difficult if you are casting it for the first time vs reapplying it). You can make a habit of marking notable individuals that you want to keep track of or that you think are suspicious. It isn't a strictly combat based spell.
Sometimes, a mark will initiate combat. Sometimes, it will not. Whether it does or does not is up to the DM based on the given scenario.
The rules don't say I am wrong either. They do not define when you are and not in initiative.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Yeah, but you say he wont bei able to do an additional d6 in his fist Turn. But what's the difference if he applies Hunters Mark and then waits for his next turn? Is there any advantage compared to not starting combat until the enemies notice?
Really? Chapter 9 of the PHB and pages 247-255 in the DMG disagrees with that. Yes, you are of course free to use inititative for other interactions where turn order is of importance, but you are still completely and utterly wrong in your claims that casting a spell that affects another creature starts combat or necessitates an initiative roll. Again, try to keep the actual rules of the game seperate from your own personal version of the rules when answering questions about the *actual* rules.
Can you quote the specific text that disagrees with it? Not saying it isn't there, but I just read 247-255 and I don't see it.
If hex doesn't start combat, what about sleep or hold person .... or even fireball? At what point is it "combat"?
Combat starts when the DM says "roll initiative". I know that's reductive but it's the closest thing we'll get to an answer. Some DM's may say that casting any spell or taking any action (like picking a pocket) automatically starts combat but going from this and other threads I've looked at, the vast majority of people says it doesn't always. My followup question for people who believe it's automatic would be "When does it end?" What if one side runs away? What if you cast True Polymorph on someone? If you turn someone into a tree it could live for centuries. Are you "in combat" till one of you dies? Am I still in combat with kids I had fights with 50 years ago? So existential.
Yeah, that's not how it works. You claim that the rules agree with you and that combat starts as soon as you use a spell to affect another person. There are no such rules in the books, therefor you are wrong. The rules that deal with initiative is about combat and chases. Neither of which fall into your own weird definition of what starts it.
It is, of course, complete bollocks to claim that simply the act of casting a spell starts combat. What if I use Sleep to help a child go to bed? Do I roll initiative then? No, of course not. Again, you can play however you want but please realize that you are at this point making things up as you go along.