Foe Slayer: adds wisdom modifier, which is usually a +2 ~ +3, to an attack roll or damage roll against a single selected type target once per turn.
Ranger18/rogue2: Sneak Attack: add 1d6 (avg 3.5) damage to a single target of any kind once per turn when combo with Vanish. On top of it, Cunning Action gives the ranger Dash, Disengage, or Hide Vanish action as an optional bonus action. And there is Thieves’ Cant for role-playing.
I think the lv2 rogue just out value the Foe Slayer
You get an extra 5th level spell as well. But Ranger loses value in the later levels. I think if you want to multiclass, you should have done so earlier.
Foe Slayer: adds wisdom modifier, which is usually a +2 ~ +3, to an attack roll or damage roll against a single selected type target once per turn.
Ranger18/rogue2: Sneak Attack: add 1d6 (avg 3.5) damage to a single target of any kind once per turn when combo with Vanish. On top of it, Cunning Action gives the ranger Dash, Disengage, or Hide Vanish action as an optional bonus action. And there is Thieves’ Cant for role-playing.
I think the lv2 rogue just out value the Foe Slayer
You also lose a Feat. I covered this in a fairy lengthy post somewhere that I’ll post again here:
Seeing as it’s my spreadsheet... the sheer number of people looking at it without actually verifying the numbers or assuming it only works in a perfect world isn’t surprising. The armchair critics do love to throw in random stats and then just assume that the numbers work in their favour.
Here are a few issues answered:
- The baseline I include does indeed include +3 weapons and Sharpshooter and maxxed Wisdom. All of which (except maybe the +3 weapons) are simple to attain in a normal character with point buy. The argument that a Ranger has a hard time getting maxxed Wis is kinda funny, especially when dual-stat classes are quite common in the game (and besides Sharpshooter what do you even need?) and they have no problem either. Add in some Hunter with Horde Breaker for five attacks... I didn’t even go there but the effect would be even more pronounced.
- Dex and Wisdom are both Primary Saves. Maxing then out is actually a good thing as every point into these ability scores means a LOT against the kinds of spells they will be up against. So it’s actually not a waste of ASIs to up them both .
- The percentage increase works, regardless of how low your damage is. It just works way better with Hunters Mark, Flame Arrows, Horde Breaker, Swift Quiver and Sharpshooter. And ridiculously so. Arguments about “it only gives you a small amount of damage increase” are actually quite baseless.
- “But what about if you miss by more than 5 on each attack and then your last attack missed!” Again, didn’t bother to look at the sheet. The chance of that happening is so small that it’s nearly irrelevant but then again... not surprised from armchair analysts that never bothered to check the actual numbers in the sheet.
- The real conversation is always about Favored Enemies, and that’s fair. I contend that if you’re in tune with your DM and the campaign, you’ll likely have a 30% likelihood of getting to use it, but your mileage will always vary.
EDIT: I did a quick reference check - with a regular longbow, archery, hunters mark, and +3 wisdom bonus and no sharpshooter the average damage went up over 33% for 2 attacks per round and up 30% for 4 attacks per round (with Swift Quiver instead of HM). Lol
Lets take it to the logical conclusion though:
My ranger is maxing both Dex and wis, is getting Sharpshooter, a +1 longbow at least, using Hunters Mark against AC 20...
24 to 37 damage per round (54% increase)
Or with Swift Quiver...
41 to 55.58 (58% increase)
Against AC 23 and Hunters Mark...
16.8 to 29.31 (75% increase)
Or with Swift Quiver...
28.7 to 44.17 (54% increase)
So go ahead and voice your concerns about Favored Enemy, but any claims about the damage output of Foe Slayer are proven unfounded.
Another Edit: Lets compare someone who takes a level of Rogue for their last level...
Your damage against AC 20 with Hunters Mark and Sneak Attack would go from 24 to 26.25 per round. If there’s someone beside your target.
With Swift Quiver your damage goes from 41 to 44.28. And again, only if someone kindly stands next to your target.
Now let’s compare AC 23...
With Hunters Mark and Sneak you go from 16.8 to 18.82. With Swift Quiver you go from 28.7 to 31.58.
... and one final comparison... I fight my AC20 Favored enemy with Foe Slayer for 8 rounds and Swift Quiver delivers 116.64 more damage than without Foe Slayer. You would have to have THIRTY SIX (36) rounds of combat with that extra sneak attack damage to even come to parity with that amount of extra damage I did in those 8 rounds.
Or, I go against an AC23 enemy for 8 rounds and deliver 123.76 extra damage with Foe Slayer. Or FORTY THREE (43) rounds of combat to come even with Sneak Attack.
Thanks for sharing. I will take a deeper look at it.
If you use the spreadsheet, if your Wisdom is staying around 14-16, then I wouldn’t bother with Foe Slayer. Otherwise, it comes down to personal preference.
The ranger works well with many other classes for multiclassing. Rogue, fighter, druid, cleric, even barbarian with a specific build. I always remind myself that although most tables use feats and multiclassing, not all do. But that aside, I would say that a beast master ranger, a spellcasting focused ranger (spell save DCs), or archer ranger could benefit from a level 20 build just fine. Either in the spells (spells known, spell slots available, and spells available) or the overall ranger level for the beast master (mostly for the beast companion) and archer (with archery fighting style).
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Foe Slayer: adds wisdom modifier, which is usually a +2 ~ +3, to an attack roll or damage roll against a single selected type target once per turn.
Ranger18/rogue2: Sneak Attack: add 1d6 (avg 3.5) damage to a single target of any kind once per turn when combo with Vanish. On top of it, Cunning Action gives the ranger Dash, Disengage, or
HideVanish action as an optional bonus action. And there is Thieves’ Cant for role-playing.I think the lv2 rogue just out value the Foe Slayer
You get an extra 5th level spell as well. But Ranger loses value in the later levels. I think if you want to multiclass, you should have done so earlier.
You also lose a Feat.
I covered this in a fairy lengthy post somewhere that I’ll post again here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rGG3NrOCUEQmQs1_03_iFdL-K0nOfekqvooyclGvxVg/edit
Seeing as it’s my spreadsheet... the sheer number of people looking at it without actually verifying the numbers or assuming it only works in a perfect world isn’t surprising. The armchair critics do love to throw in random stats and then just assume that the numbers work in their favour.
Here are a few issues answered:
- The baseline I include does indeed include +3 weapons and Sharpshooter and maxxed Wisdom. All of which (except maybe the +3 weapons) are simple to attain in a normal character with point buy. The argument that a Ranger has a hard time getting maxxed Wis is kinda funny, especially when dual-stat classes are quite common in the game (and besides Sharpshooter what do you even need?) and they have no problem either. Add in some Hunter with Horde Breaker for five attacks... I didn’t even go there but the effect would be even more pronounced.
- Dex and Wisdom are both Primary Saves. Maxing then out is actually a good thing as every point into these ability scores means a LOT against the kinds of spells they will be up against. So it’s actually not a waste of ASIs to up them both .
- The percentage increase works, regardless of how low your damage is. It just works way better with Hunters Mark, Flame Arrows, Horde Breaker, Swift Quiver and Sharpshooter. And ridiculously so. Arguments about “it only gives you a small amount of damage increase” are actually quite baseless.
- “But what about if you miss by more than 5 on each attack and then your last attack missed!” Again, didn’t bother to look at the sheet. The chance of that happening is so small that it’s nearly irrelevant but then again... not surprised from armchair analysts that never bothered to check the actual numbers in the sheet.
- The real conversation is always about Favored Enemies, and that’s fair. I contend that if you’re in tune with your DM and the campaign, you’ll likely have a 30% likelihood of getting to use it, but your mileage will always vary.
EDIT: I did a quick reference check - with a regular longbow, archery, hunters mark, and +3 wisdom bonus and no sharpshooter the average damage went up over 33% for 2 attacks per round and up 30% for 4 attacks per round (with Swift Quiver instead of HM). Lol
Lets take it to the logical conclusion though:
My ranger is maxing both Dex and wis, is getting Sharpshooter, a +1 longbow at least, using Hunters Mark against AC 20...
24 to 37 damage per round (54% increase)
Or with Swift Quiver...
41 to 55.58 (58% increase)
Against AC 23 and Hunters Mark...
16.8 to 29.31 (75% increase)
Or with Swift Quiver...
28.7 to 44.17 (54% increase)
So go ahead and voice your concerns about Favored Enemy, but any claims about the damage output of Foe Slayer are proven unfounded.
Another Edit: Lets compare someone who takes a level of Rogue for their last level...
Your damage against AC 20 with Hunters Mark and Sneak Attack would go from 24 to 26.25 per round. If there’s someone beside your target.
With Swift Quiver your damage goes from 41 to 44.28. And again, only if someone kindly stands next to your target.
Now let’s compare AC 23...
With Hunters Mark and Sneak you go from 16.8 to 18.82. With Swift Quiver you go from 28.7 to 31.58.
... and one final comparison... I fight my AC20 Favored enemy with Foe Slayer for 8 rounds and Swift Quiver delivers 116.64 more damage than without Foe Slayer. You would have to have THIRTY SIX (36) rounds of combat with that extra sneak attack damage to even come to parity with that amount of extra damage I did in those 8 rounds.
Or, I go against an AC23 enemy for 8 rounds and deliver 123.76 extra damage with Foe Slayer. Or FORTY THREE (43) rounds of combat to come even with Sneak Attack.
Thanks for sharing. I will take a deeper look at it.
If you use the spreadsheet, if your Wisdom is staying around 14-16, then I wouldn’t bother with Foe Slayer. Otherwise, it comes down to personal preference.
Ok thanks, it is super helpful.
The ranger works well with many other classes for multiclassing. Rogue, fighter, druid, cleric, even barbarian with a specific build. I always remind myself that although most tables use feats and multiclassing, not all do. But that aside, I would say that a beast master ranger, a spellcasting focused ranger (spell save DCs), or archer ranger could benefit from a level 20 build just fine. Either in the spells (spells known, spell slots available, and spells available) or the overall ranger level for the beast master (mostly for the beast companion) and archer (with archery fighting style).