I actually think it does, if you use revised ranger I think it definitely does. Every Gloomstalker build I see multi classes heavily into fighter or rogue most even both. I have a problem with that. I don’t want to compare what you get from multiclassing because that’s been discussed so much, I want to point out what straight Gloomstalker does get.
•3 levels straight ranger>gloomstalker gets you (revised) favored foe which is no a bonus action concentration ability that adds damage when you hit hat scales with level. You get to double one of your proficiencies and learn two languages. You get free 5 bonus spells at 3 5 9 13 and 17. You get a fighting style. Then you get darkvision or extra darkvision, and you’re invisible to creatures who use darkvision to see you. Also, dread ambusher on your first turn extra attack, if that hits as 1d8. You also add your wisdom bonus to initiative rolls.
•5 straight ranger you get extra attack, 3 attacks on your 1st round. You also get pass without a trace here and rope trick from gloomstalker magic. Banging spells.
•level 6 revised ranger you’re getting +5 walk speed plus a climb\swim speed.
•level 7 you get wisdom save prof so you have prof in str dex and wis saves now, very solid.
•level 8 you gain another ASI ofc, if your an elf this is likely 20 dex for +7 to hit with archery fighting style (add a +1 bow and bracers of archery and do the math) You also get fleet of foot, non magical difficult terrain doesn’t slow you and you have advantage on saves against spells that use plants to slow you
•Lvl 9 you’re getting fear and protection from energy two huge spells, fear is really solid.
•lvl 10 revised you get 1d8+wis temp ho as an action and you can do it equal to prof bonus plus you can lose a level of exhaustion on a short rest. You can also go invisible as a bonus action a number of times equal to your prof bonus. The ability to lose exhaustion levels on a short rest is one of my favorites
•11 you get to make another attack if you miss on each of your turns,, this is so good it’s crazy.
•12 another ASI for maybe sharpshooter
•13 you get greater invisibility, this is wildly powerful for gloomstalker
And the list gets better from here for full ranger, so am I crazy? I think this is a strong build, I think multiclassing weakens it over all even with action surge/sneak attack etc. Opinions? I wanna know how you feel it’s subjective and based on your campaign but I think overall straight Gloomstalker is one of the strongest builds in the game.
Edit: I’ve probably missed some cool features im just kind of going off a friends character sheet who went full gloomstalker.
I can't speak to the revised ranger. But a ranger in general, and gloomstalker specifically, gains a lot as they level in their class. Just the third level spells and slots alone is worth it for a player like me. However, I'd wager that most of the posts you're seeing telling you to multiclass out after level 5 are talking about builds designed to do one thing and one thing only, deliver as much damage as possible by shooting arrows. Level 5 in ranger get you extra attack, hunter's mark, and the dread ambusher subclass juice. Then fighter (usually battle master) gets you action surge, another fighting style, and (if using battle master) superiority dice for added damage or effects. Then adding rogue start the slow build up of sneak attack dice, and if you make a rogue subclass, assassin.
multiclassing actually weakens a lot of things. It's just that enough people play at low levels and all classes are just a little front loaded that most people don't notice it. And they don't play the combination long enough, particularly with a straight class comparison active in their party to really notice the differences in strength as levels get higher and the games go on. Remember that a lot of this uber level 20 builds that people publish are entirely theoretical and some even then require specific circumstances for them to function anywhere close to what is advertised. Which is going to happen a lot less in practical play.
It comes down to what the player wants. For myself I know that if I play a Wizard with the first level in Artificer, my spells will be delayed by 1 level and I will reach the various tiers of Wizard goodness 1 level slower. But I am willing to make this sacrifice because I like what the Artificer brings to the table namely Prof. in CON saves and a couple more cantrips and 1st level spells I don't normally have access to.
The same can be said of the Gloomstalker. Say the campaign ends at around level 10, a player may be willing to sacrifice some of the stuff the Gloomstalker gets because he or she just likes what the Fighter can get access to a little bit more.
Sometimes it could just be a roleplay thing. For example the Gloomstalker while proficient at surviving some of the harshest environments that nature can offer, finds that life within a city's walls to be a completely different beast and that the skills of a rogue was needed to survive in this almost alien environment.
Sometimes it is not all just about the damage. But sometimes it is :D
I multi-ed into Arcana Cleric at level 4 for a one level dip. It was a wee bit painful at level 5 when I didn't have multi-attack, but otherwise its been great. The level of cleric made my spell selection feel useful (I hate the spells known mechanic). We didn't have a cleric so adding healing word, bless, spare the dying, and guidance was super helpful to the party.
Through 13th level the Gloom Stalker is an excellent class (getting greater invisibility). The level 15 ability is pretty good as well.
I guess MAD aside, pretty much any one or two level dip in a full caster for cantrips, subclass ability, and utility spells is worth it for a gloom stalker. On its own it doesn't need it, but depending on your playstyle you might enjoy a small dip. I am not as excited by a two level dip in fighter or rogue.
i just do not think it’s worth it. You can be doing like an average of 40 dmg on your first round with triple advantage by fifth level. Adding utilities on top of that is really really really good. The level 11 ability, rerolling a miss once a turn makes taking it to 11 almost a must for me. That’s just such consistent damage, a level from that you’re probably adding sharpshooter anyway if you don’t have it and at that point you’re the grim reaper.
I just ask you if you’re thinking of playing Gloomstalker or if you see people saying play 5/15 blah blah. Remind them full GS ranger can scout because you’re invisible in the dark and you have a climbing and swimming speed, you get disguise self at 3rd level, you can get your team a short rest with rope trick, you have great crowd control with fear, ensnaring strike, plant growth and spike growth, you have even have healing spells like healing spirit and you will be dropping dangerous enemies before they even get turns in combat.
imo it’s not even close the best ranger build in the game
I am playing a Gloomstalker, and multi classed it after level 5, which I regret.
First game in 5e, so that's my excuse.
i really don't blame first timers when this happens. there is just so much pushing the idea of Multiclassing and it's supposed power that it's just going to happen for most new players.
I'd hope your DM would allow you to change it back since your learning. But maybe that's not possible. In which case I hope that at least you are getting to learn about a couple classes to get a bit of deeper understanding of the game for the next time and maybe new ideas of something else you might want to try next.
I am playing a Gloomstalker, and multi classed it after level 5, which I regret.
First game in 5e, so that's my excuse.
i really don't blame first timers when this happens. there is just so much pushing the idea of Multiclassing and it's supposed power that it's just going to happen for most new players.
I'd hope your DM would allow you to change it back since your learning. But maybe that's not possible. In which case I hope that at least you are getting to learn about a couple classes to get a bit of deeper understanding of the game for the next time and maybe new ideas of something else you might want to try next.
it's all good. I'm still having a blast with a Gloomstalker5 / echo knight 5 / rogue 1 (going phantom), as the shadow factor is deep in my player. RP is good, but if I did it again, I'd stick with Ranger throughout.
Maybe in another year or so, when I get to roll up a new character (unless I die in my next session where we're up against an ancient white dragon!).
I played AD&D and then warhammer fantasy for years, and my old University group has got back together in lockdown and I can't see us stopping again now until one of us drops...
You have to list what you gain by multiclassing too to compare. To take my own build as a comparison:
Gloomstalker 5 / Battlemaster 4 / Assassin 11
A full Gloomstalker 20 loses 6d6 damage every round (sneak attack), Action surge, 4 maneuvers/short rest, uncanny dodge, Assassinate, Never roll under 10 on key skills, bonus action disengage/hide/dash, more skills and so on. In particular, it looses the ability this whole build is made for: Massive flash damage (when suprising = 6 auto-crit attacks inc 6d6 sneak attack doubled + maneuvers doubled + hunters mark doubled) without loosing a lot of power in other areas. The last part is key for me.
Gloomstalker is likely the better Ranger20 build there is, but I still believe it falls very short of this particular multiclass. To me the ranger class is great up until lv 5. Tasha did help it a bit after that, but not enough imo. It has some of the same issues as barbarian. At high level you still have 2 attacks, so even if you have improved invisibility and elven accuracy its not really that impressive. Let say you deal 1d8(weapon)+5(stat)+3(magic weapon)*2=26 damage/round. With the above mentioned build you would deal (1d6+5+3)*2+6d6=39. This is without maneuvers, without action surge etc. This is not an exact calculations because all sorts of things can affect it, but I believe it shows that in a regular round the above build significantly outperforms the gloomstalker offensively, which gets amplified when the build gets to do what it does best - assassinate people for 200+ damage. It also gets more skills, more reliable skill use, more bonus action abilities etc.
The main drawback of multiclassing is usually that you get a few dead levels where you will be subpar before you gain the advantage again once you start getting proper synergies. For me, I was pretty weak when I was a Fighter 1 / Assassin 3 / Gloomstalker 4. The fighter had 2 attacks at level 5, and I didnt get it til level 9. In retrospect I should have gone Fighter 1 / Gloomstalker 5 to get the key secondary attack. Sneak attack is easier since it scales a lot more evenly.
In general though, I agree multiclassing can be a bad solution, just not for the ranger, and certainly not for the gloomstalekr who is just such a great blend with rogue.
xDrewcifer, ranger, rogue, cleric, and fighter just go together (dexterity and/or wisdom) too well when people are building super damage dealing characters. Just like paladin, sorcerer, bard, fighter, and warlock (strength and/or charisma) do. All of these multiclass combinations are built for high aggro output. It's like the one guy on the team in every 90's action movie with that huge rotating machine gun, and that's all he does.
You have to list what you gain by multiclassing too to compare. To take my own build as a comparison:
Gloomstalker 5 / Battlemaster 4 / Assassin 11
A full Gloomstalker 20 loses 6d6 damage every round (sneak attack), Action surge, 4 maneuvers/short rest, uncanny dodge, Assassinate, Never roll under 10 on key skills, bonus action disengage/hide/dash, more skills and so on. In particular, it looses the ability this whole build is made for: Massive flash damage (when suprising = 6 auto-crit attacks inc 6d6 sneak attack doubled + maneuvers doubled + hunters mark doubled) without loosing a lot of power in other areas. The last part is key for me.
Gloomstalker is likely the better Ranger20 build there is, but I still believe it falls very short of this particular multiclass. To me the ranger class is great up until lv 5. Tasha did help it a bit after that, but not enough imo. It has some of the same issues as barbarian. At high level you still have 2 attacks, so even if you have improved invisibility and elven accuracy its not really that impressive. Let say you deal 1d8(weapon)+5(stat)+3(magic weapon)*2=26 damage/round. With the above mentioned build you would deal (1d6+5+3)*2+6d6=39. This is without maneuvers, without action surge etc. This is not an exact calculations because all sorts of things can affect it, but I believe it shows that in a regular round the above build significantly outperforms the gloomstalker offensively, which gets amplified when the build gets to do what it does best - assassinate people for 200+ damage. It also gets more skills, more reliable skill use, more bonus action abilities etc.
The main drawback of multiclassing is usually that you get a few dead levels where you will be subpar before you gain the advantage again once you start getting proper synergies. For me, I was pretty weak when I was a Fighter 1 / Assassin 3 / Gloomstalker 4. The fighter had 2 attacks at level 5, and I didnt get it til level 9. In retrospect I should have gone Fighter 1 / Gloomstalker 5 to get the key secondary attack. Sneak attack is easier since it scales a lot more evenly.
In general though, I agree multiclassing can be a bad solution, just not for the ranger, and certainly not for the gloomstalekr who is just such a great blend with rogue.
I don’t actually think you would lose bonus action hide as revised ranger or Gloomstalker gets it. Besides that, the sneak attack is dependent on your GM, so is the surprise round auto crit (surprise rounds are pretty hard t get usually). On top of that, it’s going to be really hard for you to get any GM to give you surprise or sneak attack when they know you’re about to hit 8 auto crits. Plus just losing stuff like fear is going to be hard let alone the levels where your character is actually behind the rest of the team, then the levels where it surges past them. That’s besides the point though, I get how powerful that build is. I just really think it’s missing out on a lot of what makes Gloomstalker 20 so good. If you wanted a lot of damage there are easier ways to “get away with it.”
Wood elf Gloomstalker 20 (PhB +1) is a lot of damage, that no one can call power gaming, that can do a lot for the party and make your experience playing DnD really fun. I think Gloomstalker + assassin is reasonable. Same with GS+Fighter. I think Gloomstalker+Fighter+Assassin is going to get the party killed.
That’s getting into the weird area of “are we talking optimization or real DnD” type stuff though. Theres that real DnD fine line of making your character just good enough. I think 20 Gloomstalker is on the really really good side of that line.
Also, I think you can play the build two ways, human with crossbow expert and hand crossbow or wood elf with elven accuracy at lvl 4. A lot of tables don’t like elven accuracy, but elven accuracy on a non multi classed ranger.
Doing more damage is just math. When you don't take higher levels of Ranger what you really lose is area of effect damage offered by 4th and 5th level Ranger spells. So when you Gloom/Assassin/BattleMaster you are primarily trading AoE for single target nova. I think if built right its a fair trade, and the rogue levels get you some great skills and expertise.
Gloom is really good, and its fun to play. It certainly doesn't need to be multiclassed, but some people like Chocolate mixed in with Peanut Butter. I am a big fan of a few others. LOVE the Swarmkeeper.
In good sports I feel like there are a few details that need to be adressed:
You do reliably sneak attack every turn eventually. An ally in melee, hide (which is done as a bonus action), anything that grants advantage etc. There is little GMfiat with these basics. Surprise though is another matter entirely, but with an astronomical hide check the chance is quite high (I have +14, advantage and enemies have disadvantage).
If the GM wont allow a character do use their skills and abilities I would say the problem lies with the GM (although I understand that measures will be taken to avoid a non-cinematic boss encounter every time).
Also, when discussing the power of a class vs. multiclass "powergaming" is kind of the name of the game. When I think about "powergaming" as a negative term its when a concept doesnt make sense but is very powerful, making people invent very odd concepts to fit a numeric package (hello Devotion Paladin/Hexblade). In the case of Gloomstalker/Assassin/Battlemaster I dont see any such leaps of logic though. Its just a mix of different takes on an assassin/guy in shadows. I should also point out that this have not yet been a disruptive concept. It excels at a very slim niche (flash damage), but apart from that it plays much like a normal rogue. It will "wow" the party from time to time when oneshotting a wizard or a boss, but so will the disintegrate wizard. The reason i like it is that it manages to be extreme at something while not beeing weak/useless overall. This is also where I feel it differs from Gloomstalker20, which is overall fine, but not really a master of anything.
I can see reasons to play a Gloomstalker 20, I just don't see it as numerically better than the above mentioned build. Many of the gloomstalker abilities, like improved invisibility are good, but they are much better on a rogue. A Gloomstalker doesnt really get all that much out of advantage except a 25% higher chance of dealing their regular damage. The same goes for bonus action hide. its good for a Gloomstalker, but gets a lot better with sneak attack. A classic loss with multiclass builds are fewer feats, which this build actually avoids because rogue gets an extra feat at lv 10. The spesific subclasses could also be exchanged, say for a Gloomstalker 5 / Swashbuckler 11 / Champion 3. It looses the peak nova, but I still think it is a better build overall.
Elven accuracy makes the build better, but the build works all the same without it.
As for the point of AoE that is fair. In my experience though, AoE becomes a lot less important later on, as you are usually better of ganging up on one enemy after another to remove threats. This might be a campaign spesific though.
And again, not trying to say Gloomstalker 20 isnt fair, I just believe it is inferior to a multiclass build which was what this thread was asking :)
Putting multiple attacks on a rogue is always very good. I think you explain a clear problem with the Ranger for some players. If you don't lean into spells as your damage dealing, then the Ranger's abilities peak at 5th level. If your preferred playstyle is melee or weapon damage then there isn't much more for you after that. At that point you are better off adding levels of fighter and rogue, mix and match, to fill out the melee suite of abilities. Also from a damage perspective Ranger 2nd level spells are pretty poor, so there is a natural feeling of getting the goodies by level 5 and not wanting to wait until 9 for the next level of damage dealing spells.
I really value the other abilities you get through at least 11, and am not as concerned about specific damage per round via melee. But my character is more of a generalist than a damage machine (although I do occasionally put the fighter to shame).
Right but disintegrate is far, far less damage than an action surge Gloomstalker assassin with sneak and surprise. Like, far far far less damage. I would actually guess disintegrate will be about half of what 8 auto crits with archery fighting style, sharpshooter, maybe 4+ worth magic items etc. Maybe even nearly triple. It’s a whole freaking lot. No one in your party will 90% the time even come close with their most powerful of powerful abilities. But again that’s a lot of if sneak attack if surprise. Etc. I mean I get it, but a ranger that sulks in the shadows mixes well with an assassin, start adding in fighters to that and I can’t suspend my disbelief. Maybe samurai which is also super strong, but again that’s a leap because fighter kind of tells me in your face and honor whereas both assassin and Gloomstalker are completely the opposite.
We clearly have different philosophies about this, but I’m glad you have a table where you get to have fun how you want.
Putting multiple attacks on a rogue is always very good. I think you explain a clear problem with the Ranger for some players. If you don't lean into spells as your damage dealing, then the Ranger's abilities peak at 5th level. If your preferred playstyle is melee or weapon damage then there isn't much more for you after that. At that point you are better off adding levels of fighter and rogue, mix and match, to fill out the melee suite of abilities. Also from a damage perspective Ranger 2nd level spells are pretty poor, so there is a natural feeling of getting the goodies by level 5 and not wanting to wait until 9 for the next level of damage dealing spells.
I really value the other abilities you get through at least 11, and am not as concerned about specific damage per round via melee. But my character is more of a generalist than a damage machine (although I do occasionally put the fighter to shame).
Yeah I honestly think revised really makes this better with the stuff you get at 6 which I think is a climb and swim speed plus 5ft movement. That really feels useful in and out of combat. Then at 7 you’re getting a big save prof at 8 you get an ASI and at 9 you get fear and some other cool spells. 10 another deft explorer ability which I’m sure is good, and 11 you get the 2nd best skill in the package IMO with an ASI right afterwards then greater invis.
Right but disintegrate is far, far less damage than an action surge Gloomstalker assassin with sneak and surprise. Like, far far far less damage. I would actually guess disintegrate will be about half of what 8 auto crits with archery fighting style, sharpshooter, maybe 4+ worth magic items etc. Maybe even nearly triple. It’s a whole freaking lot. No one in your party will 90% the time even come close with their most powerful of powerful abilities. But again that’s a lot of if sneak attack if surprise. Etc. I mean I get it, but a ranger that sulks in the shadows mixes well with an assassin, start adding in fighters to that and I can’t suspend my disbelief. Maybe samurai which is also super strong, but again that’s a leap because fighter kind of tells me in your face and honor whereas both assassin and Gloomstalker are completely the opposite.
We clearly have different philosophies about this, but I’m glad you have a table where you get to have fun how you want.
The problem is that making this work is so niche, and only possible in a single turn that you have to get your whole party, and the situation your going to be attacking under to all play into it to be able to do this. And it still may fail if something happens like you roll poorly on your initiative and the enemy rolls well.
Even without assassinate a Ranger + Rogue + Fighter multiclass will probably do more damage than pure Ranger.
Of course, Ranger has a lot more going for it than pure damage, but it is worth noting there are benefits to multiclassing that may override the drawbacks depending on the type of build your going for.
Edit: Basically it's not weaking gloomstalker, more of a sideways hop. You lose some stuff like prof in WIS saving throws and spellcasting, but you get expertise, more damage, and evasion/uncanny dodge.
I actually think it does, if you use revised ranger I think it definitely does. Every Gloomstalker build I see multi classes heavily into fighter or rogue most even both. I have a problem with that. I don’t want to compare what you get from multiclassing because that’s been discussed so much, I want to point out what straight Gloomstalker does get.
•3 levels straight ranger>gloomstalker gets you (revised) favored foe which is no a bonus action concentration ability that adds damage when you hit hat scales with level. You get to double one of your proficiencies and learn two languages. You get free 5 bonus spells at 3 5 9 13 and 17. You get a fighting style. Then you get darkvision or extra darkvision, and you’re invisible to creatures who use darkvision to see you. Also, dread ambusher on your first turn extra attack, if that hits as 1d8. You also add your wisdom bonus to initiative rolls.
•5 straight ranger you get extra attack, 3 attacks on your 1st round. You also get pass without a trace here and rope trick from gloomstalker magic. Banging spells.
•level 6 revised ranger you’re getting +5 walk speed plus a climb\swim speed.
•level 7 you get wisdom save prof so you have prof in str dex and wis saves now, very solid.
•level 8 you gain another ASI ofc, if your an elf this is likely 20 dex for +7 to hit with archery fighting style (add a +1 bow and bracers of archery and do the math) You also get fleet of foot, non magical difficult terrain doesn’t slow you and you have advantage on saves against spells that use plants to slow you
•Lvl 9 you’re getting fear and protection from energy two huge spells, fear is really solid.
•lvl 10 revised you get 1d8+wis temp ho as an action and you can do it equal to prof bonus plus you can lose a level of exhaustion on a short rest. You can also go invisible as a bonus action a number of times equal to your prof bonus. The ability to lose exhaustion levels on a short rest is one of my favorites
•11 you get to make another attack if you miss on each of your turns,, this is so good it’s crazy.
•12 another ASI for maybe sharpshooter
•13 you get greater invisibility, this is wildly powerful for gloomstalker
And the list gets better from here for full ranger, so am I crazy? I think this is a strong build, I think multiclassing weakens it over all even with action surge/sneak attack etc. Opinions? I wanna know how you feel it’s subjective and based on your campaign but I think overall straight Gloomstalker is one of the strongest builds in the game.
Edit: I’ve probably missed some cool features im just kind of going off a friends character sheet who went full gloomstalker.
I can't speak to the revised ranger. But a ranger in general, and gloomstalker specifically, gains a lot as they level in their class. Just the third level spells and slots alone is worth it for a player like me. However, I'd wager that most of the posts you're seeing telling you to multiclass out after level 5 are talking about builds designed to do one thing and one thing only, deliver as much damage as possible by shooting arrows. Level 5 in ranger get you extra attack, hunter's mark, and the dread ambusher subclass juice. Then fighter (usually battle master) gets you action surge, another fighting style, and (if using battle master) superiority dice for added damage or effects. Then adding rogue start the slow build up of sneak attack dice, and if you make a rogue subclass, assassin.
multiclassing actually weakens a lot of things. It's just that enough people play at low levels and all classes are just a little front loaded that most people don't notice it. And they don't play the combination long enough, particularly with a straight class comparison active in their party to really notice the differences in strength as levels get higher and the games go on. Remember that a lot of this uber level 20 builds that people publish are entirely theoretical and some even then require specific circumstances for them to function anywhere close to what is advertised. Which is going to happen a lot less in practical play.
It comes down to what the player wants. For myself I know that if I play a Wizard with the first level in Artificer, my spells will be delayed by 1 level and I will reach the various tiers of Wizard goodness 1 level slower. But I am willing to make this sacrifice because I like what the Artificer brings to the table namely Prof. in CON saves and a couple more cantrips and 1st level spells I don't normally have access to.
The same can be said of the Gloomstalker. Say the campaign ends at around level 10, a player may be willing to sacrifice some of the stuff the Gloomstalker gets because he or she just likes what the Fighter can get access to a little bit more.
Sometimes it could just be a roleplay thing. For example the Gloomstalker while proficient at surviving some of the harshest environments that nature can offer, finds that life within a city's walls to be a completely different beast and that the skills of a rogue was needed to survive in this almost alien environment.
Sometimes it is not all just about the damage. But sometimes it is :D
I multi-ed into Arcana Cleric at level 4 for a one level dip. It was a wee bit painful at level 5 when I didn't have multi-attack, but otherwise its been great. The level of cleric made my spell selection feel useful (I hate the spells known mechanic). We didn't have a cleric so adding healing word, bless, spare the dying, and guidance was super helpful to the party.
Through 13th level the Gloom Stalker is an excellent class (getting greater invisibility). The level 15 ability is pretty good as well.
I guess MAD aside, pretty much any one or two level dip in a full caster for cantrips, subclass ability, and utility spells is worth it for a gloom stalker. On its own it doesn't need it, but depending on your playstyle you might enjoy a small dip. I am not as excited by a two level dip in fighter or rogue.
i just do not think it’s worth it. You can be doing like an average of 40 dmg on your first round with triple advantage by fifth level. Adding utilities on top of that is really really really good. The level 11 ability, rerolling a miss once a turn makes taking it to 11 almost a must for me. That’s just such consistent damage, a level from that you’re probably adding sharpshooter anyway if you don’t have it and at that point you’re the grim reaper.
I just ask you if you’re thinking of playing Gloomstalker or if you see people saying play 5/15 blah blah. Remind them full GS ranger can scout because you’re invisible in the dark and you have a climbing and swimming speed, you get disguise self at 3rd level, you can get your team a short rest with rope trick, you have great crowd control with fear, ensnaring strike, plant growth and spike growth, you have even have healing spells like healing spirit and you will be dropping dangerous enemies before they even get turns in combat.
imo it’s not even close the best ranger build in the game
I am playing a Gloomstalker, and multi classed it after level 5, which I regret.
First game in 5e, so that's my excuse.
i really don't blame first timers when this happens. there is just so much pushing the idea of Multiclassing and it's supposed power that it's just going to happen for most new players.
I'd hope your DM would allow you to change it back since your learning. But maybe that's not possible. In which case I hope that at least you are getting to learn about a couple classes to get a bit of deeper understanding of the game for the next time and maybe new ideas of something else you might want to try next.
it's all good. I'm still having a blast with a Gloomstalker5 / echo knight 5 / rogue 1 (going phantom), as the shadow factor is deep in my player. RP is good, but if I did it again, I'd stick with Ranger throughout.
Maybe in another year or so, when I get to roll up a new character (unless I die in my next session where we're up against an ancient white dragon!).
I played AD&D and then warhammer fantasy for years, and my old University group has got back together in lockdown and I can't see us stopping again now until one of us drops...
You have to list what you gain by multiclassing too to compare. To take my own build as a comparison:
Gloomstalker 5 / Battlemaster 4 / Assassin 11
A full Gloomstalker 20 loses 6d6 damage every round (sneak attack), Action surge, 4 maneuvers/short rest, uncanny dodge, Assassinate, Never roll under 10 on key skills, bonus action disengage/hide/dash, more skills and so on. In particular, it looses the ability this whole build is made for: Massive flash damage (when suprising = 6 auto-crit attacks inc 6d6 sneak attack doubled + maneuvers doubled + hunters mark doubled) without loosing a lot of power in other areas. The last part is key for me.
Gloomstalker is likely the better Ranger20 build there is, but I still believe it falls very short of this particular multiclass. To me the ranger class is great up until lv 5. Tasha did help it a bit after that, but not enough imo. It has some of the same issues as barbarian. At high level you still have 2 attacks, so even if you have improved invisibility and elven accuracy its not really that impressive. Let say you deal 1d8(weapon)+5(stat)+3(magic weapon)*2=26 damage/round. With the above mentioned build you would deal (1d6+5+3)*2+6d6=39. This is without maneuvers, without action surge etc. This is not an exact calculations because all sorts of things can affect it, but I believe it shows that in a regular round the above build significantly outperforms the gloomstalker offensively, which gets amplified when the build gets to do what it does best - assassinate people for 200+ damage. It also gets more skills, more reliable skill use, more bonus action abilities etc.
The main drawback of multiclassing is usually that you get a few dead levels where you will be subpar before you gain the advantage again once you start getting proper synergies. For me, I was pretty weak when I was a Fighter 1 / Assassin 3 / Gloomstalker 4. The fighter had 2 attacks at level 5, and I didnt get it til level 9. In retrospect I should have gone Fighter 1 / Gloomstalker 5 to get the key secondary attack. Sneak attack is easier since it scales a lot more evenly.
In general though, I agree multiclassing can be a bad solution, just not for the ranger, and certainly not for the gloomstalekr who is just such a great blend with rogue.
for reference here is my level 15 with standard array, after 3 years of playing my character. He is kicking some absolutely severe buts, both in and out of combat (yes, he is a little overgeared, but not much): https://www.dndbeyond.com/profile/Rasmus_Haugen_Sandvik/characters/1641177
xDrewcifer, ranger, rogue, cleric, and fighter just go together (dexterity and/or wisdom) too well when people are building super damage dealing characters. Just like paladin, sorcerer, bard, fighter, and warlock (strength and/or charisma) do. All of these multiclass combinations are built for high aggro output. It's like the one guy on the team in every 90's action movie with that huge rotating machine gun, and that's all he does.
I don’t actually think you would lose bonus action hide as revised ranger or Gloomstalker gets it. Besides that, the sneak attack is dependent on your GM, so is the surprise round auto crit (surprise rounds are pretty hard t get usually). On top of that, it’s going to be really hard for you to get any GM to give you surprise or sneak attack when they know you’re about to hit 8 auto crits. Plus just losing stuff like fear is going to be hard let alone the levels where your character is actually behind the rest of the team, then the levels where it surges past them. That’s besides the point though, I get how powerful that build is. I just really think it’s missing out on a lot of what makes Gloomstalker 20 so good. If you wanted a lot of damage there are easier ways to “get away with it.”
Wood elf Gloomstalker 20 (PhB +1) is a lot of damage, that no one can call power gaming, that can do a lot for the party and make your experience playing DnD really fun. I think Gloomstalker + assassin is reasonable. Same with GS+Fighter. I think Gloomstalker+Fighter+Assassin is going to get the party killed.
That’s getting into the weird area of “are we talking optimization or real DnD” type stuff though. Theres that real DnD fine line of making your character just good enough. I think 20 Gloomstalker is on the really really good side of that line.
Also, I think you can play the build two ways, human with crossbow expert and hand crossbow or wood elf with elven accuracy at lvl 4. A lot of tables don’t like elven accuracy, but elven accuracy on a non multi classed ranger.
I’m pretty sure 20 Gloomstalker gets bonus action turn straight up invisible. Check me if I’m wrong.
Doing more damage is just math. When you don't take higher levels of Ranger what you really lose is area of effect damage offered by 4th and 5th level Ranger spells. So when you Gloom/Assassin/BattleMaster you are primarily trading AoE for single target nova. I think if built right its a fair trade, and the rogue levels get you some great skills and expertise.
Gloom is really good, and its fun to play. It certainly doesn't need to be multiclassed, but some people like Chocolate mixed in with Peanut Butter. I am a big fan of a few others. LOVE the Swarmkeeper.
In good sports I feel like there are a few details that need to be adressed:
You do reliably sneak attack every turn eventually. An ally in melee, hide (which is done as a bonus action), anything that grants advantage etc. There is little GMfiat with these basics. Surprise though is another matter entirely, but with an astronomical hide check the chance is quite high (I have +14, advantage and enemies have disadvantage).
If the GM wont allow a character do use their skills and abilities I would say the problem lies with the GM (although I understand that measures will be taken to avoid a non-cinematic boss encounter every time).
Also, when discussing the power of a class vs. multiclass "powergaming" is kind of the name of the game. When I think about "powergaming" as a negative term its when a concept doesnt make sense but is very powerful, making people invent very odd concepts to fit a numeric package (hello Devotion Paladin/Hexblade). In the case of Gloomstalker/Assassin/Battlemaster I dont see any such leaps of logic though. Its just a mix of different takes on an assassin/guy in shadows. I should also point out that this have not yet been a disruptive concept. It excels at a very slim niche (flash damage), but apart from that it plays much like a normal rogue. It will "wow" the party from time to time when oneshotting a wizard or a boss, but so will the disintegrate wizard. The reason i like it is that it manages to be extreme at something while not beeing weak/useless overall. This is also where I feel it differs from Gloomstalker20, which is overall fine, but not really a master of anything.
I can see reasons to play a Gloomstalker 20, I just don't see it as numerically better than the above mentioned build. Many of the gloomstalker abilities, like improved invisibility are good, but they are much better on a rogue. A Gloomstalker doesnt really get all that much out of advantage except a 25% higher chance of dealing their regular damage. The same goes for bonus action hide. its good for a Gloomstalker, but gets a lot better with sneak attack. A classic loss with multiclass builds are fewer feats, which this build actually avoids because rogue gets an extra feat at lv 10. The spesific subclasses could also be exchanged, say for a Gloomstalker 5 / Swashbuckler 11 / Champion 3. It looses the peak nova, but I still think it is a better build overall.
Elven accuracy makes the build better, but the build works all the same without it.
As for the point of AoE that is fair. In my experience though, AoE becomes a lot less important later on, as you are usually better of ganging up on one enemy after another to remove threats. This might be a campaign spesific though.
And again, not trying to say Gloomstalker 20 isnt fair, I just believe it is inferior to a multiclass build which was what this thread was asking :)
Putting multiple attacks on a rogue is always very good. I think you explain a clear problem with the Ranger for some players. If you don't lean into spells as your damage dealing, then the Ranger's abilities peak at 5th level. If your preferred playstyle is melee or weapon damage then there isn't much more for you after that. At that point you are better off adding levels of fighter and rogue, mix and match, to fill out the melee suite of abilities. Also from a damage perspective Ranger 2nd level spells are pretty poor, so there is a natural feeling of getting the goodies by level 5 and not wanting to wait until 9 for the next level of damage dealing spells.
I really value the other abilities you get through at least 11, and am not as concerned about specific damage per round via melee. But my character is more of a generalist than a damage machine (although I do occasionally put the fighter to shame).
Right but disintegrate is far, far less damage than an action surge Gloomstalker assassin with sneak and surprise. Like, far far far less damage. I would actually guess disintegrate will be about half of what 8 auto crits with archery fighting style, sharpshooter, maybe 4+ worth magic items etc. Maybe even nearly triple. It’s a whole freaking lot. No one in your party will 90% the time even come close with their most powerful of powerful abilities. But again that’s a lot of if sneak attack if surprise. Etc. I mean I get it, but a ranger that sulks in the shadows mixes well with an assassin, start adding in fighters to that and I can’t suspend my disbelief. Maybe samurai which is also super strong, but again that’s a leap because fighter kind of tells me in your face and honor whereas both assassin and Gloomstalker are completely the opposite.
We clearly have different philosophies about this, but I’m glad you have a table where you get to have fun how you want.
Yeah I honestly think revised really makes this better with the stuff you get at 6 which I think is a climb and swim speed plus 5ft movement. That really feels useful in and out of combat. Then at 7 you’re getting a big save prof at 8 you get an ASI and at 9 you get fear and some other cool spells. 10 another deft explorer ability which I’m sure is good, and 11 you get the 2nd best skill in the package IMO with an ASI right afterwards then greater invis.
it’s just really well done IMO.
The problem is that making this work is so niche, and only possible in a single turn that you have to get your whole party, and the situation your going to be attacking under to all play into it to be able to do this. And it still may fail if something happens like you roll poorly on your initiative and the enemy rolls well.
Even without assassinate a Ranger + Rogue + Fighter multiclass will probably do more damage than pure Ranger.
Of course, Ranger has a lot more going for it than pure damage, but it is worth noting there are benefits to multiclassing that may override the drawbacks depending on the type of build your going for.
Edit: Basically it's not weaking gloomstalker, more of a sideways hop. You lose some stuff like prof in WIS saving throws and spellcasting, but you get expertise, more damage, and evasion/uncanny dodge.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.