I'm going to be playing an Arcane Trickster in our throwback old-school Dragon Mountain Campaign converted to 5e. Recently had a tpk where I was playing a Gith Psi Warrior. We are starting at level 10 with standard gear and no magical items(If we successfully recover our gear from our old party members...we will be stacked!)
I've read a bunch of articles and watched several videos on how to build an arcane trickster and properly select spells and feats. I'm wondering if anyone has any input on a Trickster that is focused on combat. Not so much interested in utility or scouting but heavy on combat and damage.
High Elf for the race with Mind Silver cantrip
Arcane Trickster Spells (Int score of 16)
Cantrips: Booming Blade, Friends, Green Flame Blade, and Minor Illusion
Already have someone in the party with a familiar. I like invisibility and misty step but wanted to do something different. I like Shadow Blade but I feel it might be better to pick up later and try out some save or suck with magical ambush. Thought about artificer initiate for some healing and guidance. Really liked Ritual Caster...we have easy access to a 10th LVL wizard spellbook stacked with rituals. Fey Touched and Shadow touched seemed like good options. I'm open to suggestions and input, nothing is set in stone yet. Let me know what you think.
Thanks!
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All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost.
Shield is certainly useful for defense. Absorb elements can likewise be a good defensive spell.
Unlike shield, it won't completely negate the damage you take. And it is limited in the damage types it can absorb. But, it can also give you a way to mitigate damage from things that aren't attacks, and thus shield and uncanny dodge can't help you with. Like a dragon's breath weapon, an enemy's fireball spell, and other non attack forms of elemental damage.
The offensive part of the spell then can add to your damage, though there will be cases where this is useless. IE some creatures are going to have resistance or immunity to that type of damage, especially when dealing with dragons or elementals etc.
Hideous laughter and other save spells can combo well with spell ambush, but probably only if you also invest decently into INT to make your spell save DC good. If you don't invest into INT and have it as a dump stat you're probably better off focus on just things without attack/saving throw rolls like shield, mirror image, etc. With 16 that may be enough, especially if you blow the save or suck spells on enemies with low stats in what you're making them roll.
Mirror image is a great defensive spell that also doesn't require concentration so I highly recommend keeping that. My rogue would often cast that in the first round of what looked to be a tough encounter, then use her bonus action to help get into position for the fight, as she would often be getting her first turn before she could get a sneak attack off anyway.
My AT loves misty step but I understand if you don't want to use one of your few non illusion/enchantment spells on it. It's great for some tricky situations though sine it's basically dash + disengage rolled into one for getting out of a bad spot.
Shadow blade depends largely on how often you fight in darkness and dim light. I like having it on my rogue largely in case she ever ends up disarmed from being captured or something, she'll always have some means of defending herself unless there's an antimagic thing going on.
I'm not sure if I'd take resilient(con) as a feat, at least not if it's for spell concentration. You're probably better off using your mitigation/avoidance tools as an arcane trickster than worrying about having concentration spells running a lot of the time.
For cantrips remember that mage hand is REQUIRED RAW for an arcane trickster. You get mage hand +2, and eventually a fourth AT cantrip. So you consider giving up friends or mind sliver or something. Mind sliver's effect on a failed save is nice and all but you probably won't be using this one very much because as a rogue you want that sneak attack as often as you can get it, and while you can get it with a weapon attack using gfb/bb you can't get it with mind sliver. I'd suggest dropping mind sliver or friends to make room for the mage hand. Mage hand is just super useful anyway, especially as an AT.
Good catch, thought that I automatically received mage hand. Dropped friends...for mage hand and kept mind sliver. I would like to take friends but I imagine it would be even more niche than Mind Sliver. It's a big set up but mind sliver and magical ambush could be a cool combo. I'll take a look at replacing res(con) and take a look at some other options. Only four of the spells I've selected require concentration but it's also an old school dungeon with some pretty harsh poison conditions...like instadeath and stuff so having prof. in con saves might not be a bad idea. Thanks for the input! The whole idea behind this build was to synergize with a pally and barb that would tank and protect...they said just focus damage! The barb has irl military training approaching and will only be able to play for like one or two sessions. Without the security of dedicated tanks with appropriate feats...this might be a super squish, eggs in one basket kind of build. Might have to rethink some of the spell selection yet again. :D
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All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost.
Mind sliver can be good for comboing with party members, but keep in mind that if you're using it for yourself you're effectivley making your spell take two turns in order to shave off that d4 on your next turn on the enemy's save. Which could be wasted if the enemy dies or you don't want to cast the spell on that target anymore come next turn etc. If you're focusing on damage, you're going to want to be going for sneak attack every turn unless conditions arise where giving up that damage to try for a clutch spell to disable a foe comes up or something. Especially since you're counging on TWO enemy saves failing. First they have to fail for mind sliver and then they have to fail for your next spell. And if it does go off, there's still a chance it won't make a difference.
Mind sliver is something I feel like would be better used to set up a more impactful spell a full caster in the group is going to do that would be clutch, rather than using a turn to set up your next spell when your spells are pretty limited as an arcane trickster, but that's just my opinion.
If you think you'll be making regular high stakes con saves, then keeping resilient (con) may not be a bad idea, in my rogue's game it wouldn't be worth it but if that's the sort of thing you're going up against it may be worth it.
Getting Find Familiar just to have a parrot on your shoulder or a snake hiding in your sleeve to proc sneak attack and use the Help Action on you to give you constant advantage on attacks/need to make saving throws is OP.
Getting Find Familiar just to have a parrot on your shoulder or a snake hiding in your sleeve to proc sneak attack and use the Help Action on you to give you constant advantage on attacks/need to make saving throws is OP.
If you're using the familiar constantly depending on the DM they'll probably find ways to kill it and then it'll be gone until you can recast it. Familiars are pretty squishy.
Yeah my DM swats familiars like flies. It’s not just auto win explore mode with free advantage. Stack that with elven accuracy…fun for me but not for his monsters.
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All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost.
If you have the gold and find you have leftover spell slots, its a free waste of an enemy's attack if they take out the familiar first. You might even try having the familiar just keep taking the dodge action to waste more attacks while still giving you sneak attack.
But if you don't feel like going that route, you could pick up blind sight from the figher initiate feat and keep fog cloud on hand.
I would love to have a party optimized for blind fighting but as it stands I think that would hinder most of the other party members. After posting this...I've been tossing around a few builds arcane trickster, order of scribes, and bladesinger.
At this point I'm leaning towards order of scribes. Arcane trickster and bladesinger fill a combat-oriented caster roll that seems very fun on paper but I think it would suffer from rinse and repeat combat while the scribe will have an opportunity for more creative use of spells with summons and some niche bombs from a safe distance with manifest mind.
So far the party has a Circle of Land Druid and a Palidin Oath of the Crown. Not sure about the other two. Barbarians only going to be playing for a few sessions and I think the other is a Celestial Warlock but not sure. Crown pally makes me wanna go melee caster but I like the versatility and creative options for the scribe. Plus I know my DM would be generous with access to new spells via scrolls and spell books. I don't know...what do you guys think?
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All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost.
I would love to have a party optimized for blind fighting but as it stands I think that would hinder most of the other party members. After posting this...I've been tossing around a few builds arcane trickster, order of scribes, and bladesinger.
At this point I'm leaning towards order of scribes. Arcane trickster and bladesinger fill a combat-oriented caster roll that seems very fun on paper but I think it would suffer from rinse and repeat combat while the scribe will have an opportunity for more creative use of spells with summons and some niche bombs from a safe distance with manifest mind.
So far the party has a Circle of Land Druid and a Palidin Oath of the Crown. Not sure about the other two. Barbarians only going to be playing for a few sessions and I think the other is a Celestial Warlock but not sure. Crown pally makes me wanna go melee caster but I like the versatility and creative options for the scribe. Plus I know my DM would be generous with access to new spells via scrolls and spell books. I don't know...what do you guys think?
I've got a level 9 character right now, Arcane Trickster 8 / Peace Cleric 1, and I have absolutely no complaints about my build. I'm happy to share it, and answer any questions you might have.
Starting statline (+2/+1): DEX 17 / CON 16 / WIS 14 / INT 10 / STR 8 / CHA 8 (I had specific party-based reasons for dumping Charisma)
Current statline: DEX 18 / CON 16 / WIS 14 / INT 10 / STR 8 / CHA 8
ASIs: Elven Accuracy, Skulker
Race: Eladrin, DMG variant. As a half-elf I could have been WIS 16 / INT 8, which would have been completely fine, but I really wanted access to the Eladrin teleport. I used the DMG variant's weapon proficiencies and swapped them out because I'm in a campaign with firearms and I really dug wielding a musket, but actually I haven't been able to find one yet. :'(
Background: Custom Charlatan; my final tool proficiencies between rogue, this, and consuming 1 of my racial weapons for a tool were Thieves' Tools (Expertise), Disguise Kit, Forgery Kit, and Poisoner's Kit.
Class: Arcane Trickster 8 / Peace Cleric 1
Skill Proficiencies: Arcana, History, Insight, Investigation, Nature, Perception (Expertise), Sleight of Hand (Expertise), Stealth (Expertise)
History is replacing Religion due to my campaign setting's unique cosmology rendering the Religion skill worthless - I originally took Religion and the DM let me swap after explaining that I'd never roll it.
Nature is for milking my familiar for poison.
Armor Proficiencies: Light, Medium, Shields.
For campaign reasons I am currently operating with very slightly more than level 1 starting gear for a Rogue, but as soon as I get a chance to get my hands on mundane equipment, I intend to get my hands on a shield.
Weapon Proficiencies: Rogue + Heavy Crossbow, Longbow, Musket.
Cantrips:
Mage Hand
Minor Illusion
Shape Water
I'm sure you noticed Booming Blade is missing. I was allowed to start with a decanter of endless water, so shape water was an autoinclude. I will take Booming Blade at Rogue 10, and I would encourage anyone not starting with the decanter to consider swapping this cantrip for Booming Blade, unless you're in a heavily aquatic campaign.
Guidance
Light
Spare the Dying
Light and Spare the Dying are because Guidance was the only cleric cantrip I genuinely cared about, but all three cleric cantrips are specifically chosen to be castable through my familiar. My familiar is generally behind me, so it has half cover from attacks.
One of the many houserule buffs I enjoy from my DM is that my DM hates tracking many initiative counts, so my familiar shares my initiative - I never have to worry about the two of us rolling differently and having my target act between us. Without this houserule, I would have asked for a separate houserule letting us act at the initiative of whichever of us rolled worse - I care about going first a lot less than I care about being able to take two turns without an enemy acting between us.
Spells Known/Prepared, Level 1
Disguise Self
Find Familiar
Silent Image
Bless
Detect Magic
I only cast this as a ritual, since I'm a cleric.
Healing Word
Heroism
Sanctuary
Spells Known, Level 2
Invisibility
Misty Step
Shadow Blade
Like I said, absolutely no complaints. The only part of any of my feats I've never used is the fact that Skulker keeps me hidden when I miss, because I never miss - triple advantage to hit + 1d4 with a second +1d4 I can either slap on my accuracy or, if I roll well to hit, on my subsequent Stealth check has meant I have literally never missed a shot so far in the campaign. Skulker giving me +5 passive perception in the dark has been clutch, but not nearly as clutch as Skulker letting me just hide in the dark, since my campaign isn't big on fiends - everything trying to see me in the dark is using darkvision, which means Skulker is basically acting like I took Gloomstalker 3.
Generally speaking, I know combat is going to start before it does, since I'm the party scout, so I have plenty of time to prep. It's just not hard having Bless and Emboldening Bond up simultaneously. It's crazy powerful being able to hide in the dark while still providing cover to my owl.
Frankly my biggest complaint is that I have no use whatsoever for Magical Ambush, the AT L9 ability. When I hit Rogue 9 I plan to try to convince my DM to give me... well, anything else. I'll get more use out of a ribbon than I will the actual subclass feature, since I have literally no spells the feature applies to and don't plan on taking any.
Nice build, thanks for sharing! For me, magical ambush on an aoe spell like hypno pattern applying aoe disadvantage or disadvantage or a top tier save or suck spell is too juicy to pass up. Although I can see the appeal of a low int arcane trickster that doesn’t rely on spell save dc. Not to many abilities grant dis adv on saving throw from a spell…shadow sorc gets it but it’s such a limited resource.
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All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost.
Nice build, thanks for sharing! For me, magical ambush on an aoe spell like hypno pattern applying aoe disadvantage or disadvantage or a top tier save or suck spell is too juicy to pass up. Although I can see the appeal of a low int arcane trickster that doesn’t rely on spell save dc. Not to many abilities grant dis adv on saving throw from a spell…shadow sorc gets it but it’s such a limited resource.
Versatile trickster can definitely be good. I've hit some key enemies with tasha's laughter and hold person at some key times that have been very helpful.
Most of the time, as a rogue, you're going for that sneask attack damage. But sometimes depending on the situation, it's better to throw out a utility spell.
Or, if you're lucky enough to have someone cast haste on you...try for both!
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Hi everyone,
I'm going to be playing an Arcane Trickster in our throwback old-school Dragon Mountain Campaign converted to 5e. Recently had a tpk where I was playing a Gith Psi Warrior. We are starting at level 10 with standard gear and no magical items(If we successfully recover our gear from our old party members...we will be stacked!)
I've read a bunch of articles and watched several videos on how to build an arcane trickster and properly select spells and feats. I'm wondering if anyone has any input on a Trickster that is focused on combat. Not so much interested in utility or scouting but heavy on combat and damage.
High Elf for the race with Mind Silver cantrip
Arcane Trickster Spells (Int score of 16)
Feats
Already have someone in the party with a familiar. I like invisibility and misty step but wanted to do something different. I like Shadow Blade but I feel it might be better to pick up later and try out some save or suck with magical ambush. Thought about artificer initiate for some healing and guidance. Really liked Ritual Caster...we have easy access to a 10th LVL wizard spellbook stacked with rituals. Fey Touched and Shadow touched seemed like good options. I'm open to suggestions and input, nothing is set in stone yet. Let me know what you think.
Thanks!
All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost.
Shield is certainly useful for defense. Absorb elements can likewise be a good defensive spell.
Unlike shield, it won't completely negate the damage you take. And it is limited in the damage types it can absorb. But, it can also give you a way to mitigate damage from things that aren't attacks, and thus shield and uncanny dodge can't help you with. Like a dragon's breath weapon, an enemy's fireball spell, and other non attack forms of elemental damage.
The offensive part of the spell then can add to your damage, though there will be cases where this is useless. IE some creatures are going to have resistance or immunity to that type of damage, especially when dealing with dragons or elementals etc.
Hideous laughter and other save spells can combo well with spell ambush, but probably only if you also invest decently into INT to make your spell save DC good. If you don't invest into INT and have it as a dump stat you're probably better off focus on just things without attack/saving throw rolls like shield, mirror image, etc. With 16 that may be enough, especially if you blow the save or suck spells on enemies with low stats in what you're making them roll.
Mirror image is a great defensive spell that also doesn't require concentration so I highly recommend keeping that. My rogue would often cast that in the first round of what looked to be a tough encounter, then use her bonus action to help get into position for the fight, as she would often be getting her first turn before she could get a sneak attack off anyway.
My AT loves misty step but I understand if you don't want to use one of your few non illusion/enchantment spells on it. It's great for some tricky situations though sine it's basically dash + disengage rolled into one for getting out of a bad spot.
Shadow blade depends largely on how often you fight in darkness and dim light. I like having it on my rogue largely in case she ever ends up disarmed from being captured or something, she'll always have some means of defending herself unless there's an antimagic thing going on.
I'm not sure if I'd take resilient(con) as a feat, at least not if it's for spell concentration. You're probably better off using your mitigation/avoidance tools as an arcane trickster than worrying about having concentration spells running a lot of the time.
For cantrips remember that mage hand is REQUIRED RAW for an arcane trickster. You get mage hand +2, and eventually a fourth AT cantrip. So you consider giving up friends or mind sliver or something. Mind sliver's effect on a failed save is nice and all but you probably won't be using this one very much because as a rogue you want that sneak attack as often as you can get it, and while you can get it with a weapon attack using gfb/bb you can't get it with mind sliver. I'd suggest dropping mind sliver or friends to make room for the mage hand. Mage hand is just super useful anyway, especially as an AT.
Good catch, thought that I automatically received mage hand. Dropped friends...for mage hand and kept mind sliver. I would like to take friends but I imagine it would be even more niche than Mind Sliver. It's a big set up but mind sliver and magical ambush could be a cool combo. I'll take a look at replacing res(con) and take a look at some other options. Only four of the spells I've selected require concentration but it's also an old school dungeon with some pretty harsh poison conditions...like instadeath and stuff so having prof. in con saves might not be a bad idea. Thanks for the input! The whole idea behind this build was to synergize with a pally and barb that would tank and protect...they said just focus damage! The barb has irl military training approaching and will only be able to play for like one or two sessions. Without the security of dedicated tanks with appropriate feats...this might be a super squish, eggs in one basket kind of build. Might have to rethink some of the spell selection yet again. :D
All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost.
Mind sliver can be good for comboing with party members, but keep in mind that if you're using it for yourself you're effectivley making your spell take two turns in order to shave off that d4 on your next turn on the enemy's save. Which could be wasted if the enemy dies or you don't want to cast the spell on that target anymore come next turn etc. If you're focusing on damage, you're going to want to be going for sneak attack every turn unless conditions arise where giving up that damage to try for a clutch spell to disable a foe comes up or something. Especially since you're counging on TWO enemy saves failing. First they have to fail for mind sliver and then they have to fail for your next spell. And if it does go off, there's still a chance it won't make a difference.
Mind sliver is something I feel like would be better used to set up a more impactful spell a full caster in the group is going to do that would be clutch, rather than using a turn to set up your next spell when your spells are pretty limited as an arcane trickster, but that's just my opinion.
If you think you'll be making regular high stakes con saves, then keeping resilient (con) may not be a bad idea, in my rogue's game it wouldn't be worth it but if that's the sort of thing you're going up against it may be worth it.
Getting Find Familiar just to have a parrot on your shoulder or a snake hiding in your sleeve to proc sneak attack and use the Help Action on you to give you constant advantage on attacks/need to make saving throws is OP.
If you're using the familiar constantly depending on the DM they'll probably find ways to kill it and then it'll be gone until you can recast it. Familiars are pretty squishy.
Yeah my DM swats familiars like flies. It’s not just auto win explore mode with free advantage. Stack that with elven accuracy…fun for me but not for his monsters.
All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost.
If you have the gold and find you have leftover spell slots, its a free waste of an enemy's attack if they take out the familiar first. You might even try having the familiar just keep taking the dodge action to waste more attacks while still giving you sneak attack.
But if you don't feel like going that route, you could pick up blind sight from the figher initiate feat and keep fog cloud on hand.
I would love to have a party optimized for blind fighting but as it stands I think that would hinder most of the other party members. After posting this...I've been tossing around a few builds arcane trickster, order of scribes, and bladesinger.
At this point I'm leaning towards order of scribes. Arcane trickster and bladesinger fill a combat-oriented caster roll that seems very fun on paper but I think it would suffer from rinse and repeat combat while the scribe will have an opportunity for more creative use of spells with summons and some niche bombs from a safe distance with manifest mind.
So far the party has a Circle of Land Druid and a Palidin Oath of the Crown. Not sure about the other two. Barbarians only going to be playing for a few sessions and I think the other is a Celestial Warlock but not sure. Crown pally makes me wanna go melee caster but I like the versatility and creative options for the scribe. Plus I know my DM would be generous with access to new spells via scrolls and spell books. I don't know...what do you guys think?
All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost.
I've got a level 9 character right now, Arcane Trickster 8 / Peace Cleric 1, and I have absolutely no complaints about my build. I'm happy to share it, and answer any questions you might have.
Like I said, absolutely no complaints. The only part of any of my feats I've never used is the fact that Skulker keeps me hidden when I miss, because I never miss - triple advantage to hit + 1d4 with a second +1d4 I can either slap on my accuracy or, if I roll well to hit, on my subsequent Stealth check has meant I have literally never missed a shot so far in the campaign. Skulker giving me +5 passive perception in the dark has been clutch, but not nearly as clutch as Skulker letting me just hide in the dark, since my campaign isn't big on fiends - everything trying to see me in the dark is using darkvision, which means Skulker is basically acting like I took Gloomstalker 3.
Generally speaking, I know combat is going to start before it does, since I'm the party scout, so I have plenty of time to prep. It's just not hard having Bless and Emboldening Bond up simultaneously. It's crazy powerful being able to hide in the dark while still providing cover to my owl.
Frankly my biggest complaint is that I have no use whatsoever for Magical Ambush, the AT L9 ability. When I hit Rogue 9 I plan to try to convince my DM to give me... well, anything else. I'll get more use out of a ribbon than I will the actual subclass feature, since I have literally no spells the feature applies to and don't plan on taking any.
Nice build, thanks for sharing! For me, magical ambush on an aoe spell like hypno pattern applying aoe disadvantage or disadvantage or a top tier save or suck spell is too juicy to pass up. Although I can see the appeal of a low int arcane trickster that doesn’t rely on spell save dc. Not to many abilities grant dis adv on saving throw from a spell…shadow sorc gets it but it’s such a limited resource.
All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost.
Versatile trickster can definitely be good. I've hit some key enemies with tasha's laughter and hold person at some key times that have been very helpful.
Most of the time, as a rogue, you're going for that sneask attack damage. But sometimes depending on the situation, it's better to throw out a utility spell.
Or, if you're lucky enough to have someone cast haste on you...try for both!