steady aim, elven accuracy, sneak attack, blade cantrip, piercer, and a reliable source of reaction attacks can make the rogue one of the highest sources of sustained damage in the game.
Steady aim is a lot easier to use effectively with a ranged weapon. You can use it with the blade cantrips but you have to stay in melee because your speed is 0 for the turn you use it. you usually can't use it on the first turn and you can't use it if the enemy you are engaged with dies unless there is another within reach. A mount can alleviate that but I would not say that is common.
When you consider this, I think your damage for a ranged attacks will keep up fairly well because you can use steady aim more often, and you can try to hide many times when you can't use steady aim.
Also you need four feats to get all this, or 3 feats and an Arcane Trickster which means it does not all come online until 10th or 12th level and still without a 20 dexterity at that time.
Making use of a half elf variant or high elf gives a cantrip from the wizard spell list, so a blade cantrip can be received at level 1. The high elf option gives an easy chance to swap weapons for a heavy crossbow, while the half elf offers an additional attribute point.
elven accuracy can be chosen at level 4 to round out dexterity to 18.
the blade cantrip damage scales up at level 5. with steady aim and elven accuracy it’s dealing an average of 24.7 DPR vs a heavy crossbows 21 DPR. Assuming 60% accuracy. If you have access to mounts, then the rogue can blade cantrip and have the mount disengage, potentially causing the target to choose between an additional 2d8 from booming blade for moving or staying in place. This trend continues to spike at level 11 and 17 as your cantrip gain at an additional die on top of your sneak attack at those odd levels.
there’s also no reason a blade cantrip rogue wouldn’t be able to make use of the ranged weapons when they may be more useful.
the piercer feat is the last feat chosen, as it’s not as large a boost as elven accuracy. It also gets slightly more useful the more die you roll, as your more likely to be able to choose a lower die roll to push the damage up. The extra die on a critical is also more likely to happen when you roll 3 die instead of 2.
should be online by level 8. 20 dexterity isn’t nearly as impactful as the features chosen. Applicable Feats and 20 dexterity will be reached at level 10.
steady aim, elven accuracy, sneak attack, blade cantrip, piercer, and a reliable source of reaction attacks can make the rogue one of the highest sources of sustained damage in the game.
Steady aim is a lot easier to use effectively with a ranged weapon. You can use it with the blade cantrips but you have to stay in melee because your speed is 0 for the turn you use it. you usually can't use it on the first turn and you can't use it if the enemy you are engaged with dies unless there is another within reach. A mount can alleviate that but I would not say that is common.
When you consider this, I think your damage for a ranged attacks will keep up fairly well because you can use steady aim more often, and you can try to hide many times when you can't use steady aim.
Also you need four feats to get all this, or 3 feats and an Arcane Trickster which means it does not all come online until 10th or 12th level and still without a 20 dexterity at that time.
Making use of a half elf variant or high elf gives a cantrip from the wizard spell list, so a blade cantrip can be received at level 1. The high elf option gives an easy chance to swap weapons for a heavy crossbow, while the half elf offers an additional attribute point.
elven accuracy can be chosen at level 4 to round out dexterity to 18.
the blade cantrip damage scales up at level 5. with steady aim and elven accuracy it’s dealing an average of 24.7 DPR vs a heavy crossbows 21 DPR. Assuming 60% accuracy. If you have access to mounts, then the rogue can blade cantrip and have the mount disengage, potentially causing the target to choose between an additional 2d8 from booming blade for moving or staying in place. This trend continues to spike at level 11 and 17 as your cantrip gain at an additional die on top of your sneak attack at those odd levels.
there’s also no reason a blade cantrip rogue wouldn’t be able to make use of the ranged weapons when they may be more useful.
the piercer feat is the last feat chosen, as it’s not as large a boost as elven accuracy. It also gets slightly more useful the more die you roll, as your more likely to be able to choose a lower die roll to push the damage up. The extra die on a critical is also more likely to happen when you roll 3 die instead of 2.
should be online by level 8. 20 dexterity isn’t nearly as impactful as the features chosen. Applicable Feats and 20 dexterity will be reached at level 10.
Great point on the high elf cantrip and being able to use missile weapons when it makes sense. Both are 100% true.
I would disagree about 20 dexterity not being as important. Aside from more damage and a greater chance of hit, it also increases AC, saves and skills, one of those skills being stealth which you can use as a bonus action to attempt to hide and gain advantage when you otherwise would not have it.
If anyone is curious, treantmonk just released a video on YouTube that highlights the efficacy of these mechanics. The build and video is called “the double phantom”.
I find the use of Phantom Steed to disengage an abuse of the mounted rules with respect to the rules as intended for steady aim. The whole point of steady aim is that you do not move to steady your aim. As soon as the mount moves you aren't steady anymore. I understand why it works RAW, but its a bad abuse of RAW.
Otherwise its a very good build and shows off the power of combining steady aim, elven accuracy, and phantom. That said the bump in damage that puts it way over the top doesn't come until 17th level which basically makes it a capstone ability.
I find the use of Phantom Steed to disengage an abuse of the mounted rules with respect to the rules as intended for steady aim. The whole point of steady aim is that you do not move to steady your aim. As soon as the mount moves you aren't steady anymore. I understand why it works RAW, but its a bad abuse of RAW.
Otherwise its a very good build and shows off the power of combining steady aim, elven accuracy, and phantom. That said the bump in damage that puts it way over the top doesn't come until 17th level which basically makes it a capstone ability.
The whole point of steady aim is for the rogue to have yet another way to gain advantage to ensure it gets a chance for sneak attack, by giving up the rogues movement. It also gives the rogue to ability to sneak attack reliably first round regardless of environmental features, which wasn’t the case before. There was a counterintuitive situation that popped up which involves a rogue winning initiative, which is likely do to high dexterity. Because they could reliably have the first turn, often times their turns would feel wasted if an ally wasn’t near an enemy yet to grant sneak. This would be coupled with the possibility that some DMs don’t want their rogues to easily be able to hide.
there are a lot of ways to move in the game without using your own movement, or even be moved for that matter.
I don’t think it’s quite fair to assume RAI is something different because it wasn’t the first interpretation some people had, or if there was a lack of attention given to the feature in the first place by most players or DMs.
The point of steady aim is indeed to give the rogue another way to get advantage, but at the cost of their bonus action and speed.
The feature says you cannot move before you attack and after your speed becomes zero. Use of a mount certainly circumvents those rules, and to my mind the intent of the feature, resulting in advantage at no penalty to movement. While I appreciate the gamesmanship I wouldn't allow it.
Perhaps it is my own bias against the barely existent mount ruleset for 5e coloring my judgement or my own prejudice against rules exploits. That is my read and someone else can rule differently. Maybe I am just crazy and think that a feature called steady aim that says you can't move to use it means you can't move.
I don’t think your crazy. The system takes certain words and assigns different meanings and limitations to those words.
as far as the feature goes, it does state that you can’t have “moved” before using it. This means that basically it has to be the very first thing you do, as even a mount moving you is still moving you. That being said, once you spend your bonus action pretty much immediately at the start of your turn, you gain advantage on your next attack that turn and sacrifice your own movement.
there are circumstances that can occur that make steady aim unusable. Anything that can move you at the start of your turn, before you have a chance to “steady aim” would take away your ability to use the feature. This could be a spell effect, creatures feature, or perhaps a reaction from a creature who readies a shove to knock you off balance. Tasha’s mind whip would work against it very well.
Ias far as the feature goes, it does state that you can’t have “moved” before using it.
there are circumstances that can occur that make steady aim unusable. Anything that can move you at the start of your turn, before you have a chance to “steady aim” would take away your ability to use the feature. This could be a spell effect, creatures feature, or perhaps a reaction from a creature who readies a shove to knock you off balance.
This is a very good point, it does not say if you haven't used any movement, it says if you have moved. If a mount or anything else moves you on your turn before you use this feature it would mean you can't use it.
Similarly you could not use it if you were say hasted and cast a spell that teleported you or if you used action surge or a reaction and cast a spell or used an ability that teleported you on your turn.
You could use it in the reverse order though, For example if you are a Fighter Rogue with action surge:
1. Use steady aim, make attack with advantage, use action surge to cast vortex warp and teleport yourself - this is OK RAW
2. Cast vortex warp and teleoprt yourself, use stready aim, use action surge to attack with advantage - this is not OK RAW
"This is a very good point, it does not say if you haven't used any movement, it says if you have moved. If a mount or anything else moves you on your turn before you use this feature it would mean you can't use it."
If a mount or anything else moves you on your turn before you use this feature it would mean you can't use it.
A mount and it's rider take separate turns. If you decide that your mount moves you first, it does so and then ends its turn. When you begin your turn, you have not moved in this turn.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
If a mount or anything else moves you on your turn before you use this feature it would mean you can't use it.
A mount and it's rider take separate turns. If you decide that your mount moves you first, it does so and then ends its turn. When you begin your turn, you have not moved in this turn.
This interpretation would bring up multiple issues.
First a controlled mount is tied with you in initiative, if he has his own individual turn that means the DM and not the player determines the initiative order and it would be the same every round.
Second the mount must complete its entire turn either before or after you (depending on if it is put before you or after you in order). So you can't have the mount move in so you can attack and then disengage and move back. If it moves before you it ends its turn before your attack. If the mount ever uses disengage and moves out of combat, you are going to have to use a missile weapon or dismount on your turn to close with the enemy and kill him because there is no way to move back again before your turn. Further the mount can not use the ready action to use his move at a different time because ready is not one of the three actions a controlled mount can use.
Forcing a controlled mount to separate his turn from yours would make mounts very difficult and restrictive to use in combat. Imagine the mounted knight with a lance that goes right before his controlled mount. The first turn the knight does nothing because he is not in range. Then the mount charges to get within reach of an enemy. Then the wizard casts hypnotic pattern and that enemy gets charmed. Now the knight doesn't want to attack him so he wastes another turn because he can't move on his turn. Then he has the mount move over to get in range of the guy the barbarian is fighting. But the barbarian kills him this round so the knight wastes a third turn. We are 3 turns into combat and the knight has done nothing.
First if a controlled mount has its own individual turn, then that means you are tied in initiative, which means the DM and not the player determines the initiative order and it would be the same every turn.
Second the mount must complete its entire turn either before or after you (depending on if it is before you or after you in initiative). So you can't have the mount move in so you can attack and then disengage and move back. If it moves before you it ends its turn before your attack. If the mount ever uses disengage and moves out of combat, you are going to have to use a missile weapon or dismount on your turn to close with the enemy and kill him. Further the mount can not use the ready action to use his move later before his next turn, because ready is not one of the three actions a controlled mount can use.
Yes, this is a known and clunky thing about mounted combat.
Forcing a controlled mount to separate his turn from yours would make mounts very difficult and restrictive to use in combat. Imagine the mounted knight with a lance that goes right before his controlled mount. The first turn the knight does nothing because he is not in range. Then the mount charges to get within reach of an enemy. Then the wizard charms that enemy. Now the knight doesn't want to attack him so he wastes another turn because he can't move on his turn. Then he has the mount move over to get in range of the guy the barbarian is fighting. But the barbarian kills him this turn so the knight wastes a third turn. We are 3 turns into combat and the knight has done nothing.
Mounted combat is 5E is very clunky, per RAW. This is known.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Ias far as the feature goes, it does state that you can’t have “moved” before using it.
there are circumstances that can occur that make steady aim unusable. Anything that can move you at the start of your turn, before you have a chance to “steady aim” would take away your ability to use the feature. This could be a spell effect, creatures feature, or perhaps a reaction from a creature who readies a shove to knock you off balance.
This is a very good point, it does not say if you haven't used any movement, it says if you have moved. If a mount or anything else moves you on your turn before you use this feature it would mean you can't use it.
The issue is that mounts don't move you "on your turn", they take their own turn either before or after yours, they only share your initiative (not your turn); so strictly speaking in RAW you can use steady aim no matter how fast your mount is moving. Your enemies could also literally spend their turns blasting you around with Thunderwave, and it has no impact on your ability to use Steady Aim during your own turn (since Thunderwave only pushes you, it doesn't knock you prone unless you go over an edge or such).
But this feels very much like an edge case in rules as intended; I'd maybe allow it as a DM if the mount were only moving you slowly, but not if it's travelling at enough speed that it's no longer reasonable to consider your aim "steady".
Anyway, to the original issue of the thread, I don't see there being a lack of ranged Rogues; even before Steady Aim any Rogue could excel at range if you keep Hiding or have allies next to your targets. While there are no sub-classes with abilities that work super well at long range (many require you to be reasonably close) no properly equipped Rogue is ever bad at range, so there's really no need for one. Unless your DM is very generous, a ranged character won't stay at range for ever, or be able to get range when they want to, so having other things you can do at short range is always useful for an archer.
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Hiding as I see it tends to be a better option than Steady Aim since most rogues have very good (usually Expertised) stealth rolls. The chance of failure to me seems to be outweighed by the fact that hidden enemies tend not to be attacked (disadvantage on attack rolls, plus if they fire into the wrong location it missses automatically), can move around still (if the monsters charge you, for example - giving disadvantage on you disadvantage on ranged attack rolls, which cancels Steady Aim). You also get advantage on your next attack roll as an unseen target. On the whole, I think this is worth it for a slim chance of failure. Most parties have a melee player for sneak attack so the advantage, while a nice bonus, isn't essential.
In terms of them being boring, most 'boring in combat' cases can be fixed by RPing through combat instead of just rolling the dice. "Yohan raises his bow and sights down the shaft of his arrow. He releases his arrow, sending it flying towards the goblin king's neck."
That's an extreme example but you see how taking a little additional description beyond "I roll to attack with my shortbow" makes combat more enjoyable generally? Same goes for describing movement: backflips, sliding, panting dashes and sprints all make your 30ft more enjoyable.
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Chilling kinda vibe.
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Making use of a half elf variant or high elf gives a cantrip from the wizard spell list, so a blade cantrip can be received at level 1. The high elf option gives an easy chance to swap weapons for a heavy crossbow, while the half elf offers an additional attribute point.
elven accuracy can be chosen at level 4 to round out dexterity to 18.
the blade cantrip damage scales up at level 5. with steady aim and elven accuracy it’s dealing an average of 24.7 DPR vs a heavy crossbows 21 DPR. Assuming 60% accuracy. If you have access to mounts, then the rogue can blade cantrip and have the mount disengage, potentially causing the target to choose between an additional 2d8 from booming blade for moving or staying in place. This trend continues to spike at level 11 and 17 as your cantrip gain at an additional die on top of your sneak attack at those odd levels.
there’s also no reason a blade cantrip rogue wouldn’t be able to make use of the ranged weapons when they may be more useful.
the piercer feat is the last feat chosen, as it’s not as large a boost as elven accuracy. It also gets slightly more useful the more die you roll, as your more likely to be able to choose a lower die roll to push the damage up. The extra die on a critical is also more likely to happen when you roll 3 die instead of 2.
should be online by level 8. 20 dexterity isn’t nearly as impactful as the features chosen. Applicable Feats and 20 dexterity will be reached at level 10.
Great point on the high elf cantrip and being able to use missile weapons when it makes sense. Both are 100% true.
I would disagree about 20 dexterity not being as important. Aside from more damage and a greater chance of hit, it also increases AC, saves and skills, one of those skills being stealth which you can use as a bonus action to attempt to hide and gain advantage when you otherwise would not have it.
If anyone is curious, treantmonk just released a video on YouTube that highlights the efficacy of these mechanics. The build and video is called “the double phantom”.
I find the use of Phantom Steed to disengage an abuse of the mounted rules with respect to the rules as intended for steady aim. The whole point of steady aim is that you do not move to steady your aim. As soon as the mount moves you aren't steady anymore. I understand why it works RAW, but its a bad abuse of RAW.
Otherwise its a very good build and shows off the power of combining steady aim, elven accuracy, and phantom. That said the bump in damage that puts it way over the top doesn't come until 17th level which basically makes it a capstone ability.
The whole point of steady aim is for the rogue to have yet another way to gain advantage to ensure it gets a chance for sneak attack, by giving up the rogues movement. It also gives the rogue to ability to sneak attack reliably first round regardless of environmental features, which wasn’t the case before. There was a counterintuitive situation that popped up which involves a rogue winning initiative, which is likely do to high dexterity. Because they could reliably have the first turn, often times their turns would feel wasted if an ally wasn’t near an enemy yet to grant sneak. This would be coupled with the possibility that some DMs don’t want their rogues to easily be able to hide.
there are a lot of ways to move in the game without using your own movement, or even be moved for that matter.
I don’t think it’s quite fair to assume RAI is something different because it wasn’t the first interpretation some people had, or if there was a lack of attention given to the feature in the first place by most players or DMs.
The point of steady aim is indeed to give the rogue another way to get advantage, but at the cost of their bonus action and speed.
The feature says you cannot move before you attack and after your speed becomes zero. Use of a mount certainly circumvents those rules, and to my mind the intent of the feature, resulting in advantage at no penalty to movement. While I appreciate the gamesmanship I wouldn't allow it.
Perhaps it is my own bias against the barely existent mount ruleset for 5e coloring my judgement or my own prejudice against rules exploits. That is my read and someone else can rule differently. Maybe I am just crazy and think that a feature called steady aim that says you can't move to use it means you can't move.
I don’t think your crazy. The system takes certain words and assigns different meanings and limitations to those words.
as far as the feature goes, it does state that you can’t have “moved” before using it. This means that basically it has to be the very first thing you do, as even a mount moving you is still moving you. That being said, once you spend your bonus action pretty much immediately at the start of your turn, you gain advantage on your next attack that turn and sacrifice your own movement.
there are circumstances that can occur that make steady aim unusable. Anything that can move you at the start of your turn, before you have a chance to “steady aim” would take away your ability to use the feature. This could be a spell effect, creatures feature, or perhaps a reaction from a creature who readies a shove to knock you off balance. Tasha’s mind whip would work against it very well.
This is a very good point, it does not say if you haven't used any movement, it says if you have moved. If a mount or anything else moves you on your turn before you use this feature it would mean you can't use it.
Similarly you could not use it if you were say hasted and cast a spell that teleported you or if you used action surge or a reaction and cast a spell or used an ability that teleported you on your turn.
You could use it in the reverse order though, For example if you are a Fighter Rogue with action surge:
1. Use steady aim, make attack with advantage, use action surge to cast vortex warp and teleport yourself - this is OK RAW
2. Cast vortex warp and teleoprt yourself, use stready aim, use action surge to attack with advantage - this is not OK RAW
"This is a very good point, it does not say if you haven't used any movement, it says if you have moved. If a mount or anything else moves you on your turn before you use this feature it would mean you can't use it."
That is a really interesting catch. Neat.
A mount and it's rider take separate turns. If you decide that your mount moves you first, it does so and then ends its turn. When you begin your turn, you have not moved in this turn.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
This interpretation would bring up multiple issues.
First a controlled mount is tied with you in initiative, if he has his own individual turn that means the DM and not the player determines the initiative order and it would be the same every round.
Second the mount must complete its entire turn either before or after you (depending on if it is put before you or after you in order). So you can't have the mount move in so you can attack and then disengage and move back. If it moves before you it ends its turn before your attack. If the mount ever uses disengage and moves out of combat, you are going to have to use a missile weapon or dismount on your turn to close with the enemy and kill him because there is no way to move back again before your turn. Further the mount can not use the ready action to use his move at a different time because ready is not one of the three actions a controlled mount can use.
Forcing a controlled mount to separate his turn from yours would make mounts very difficult and restrictive to use in combat. Imagine the mounted knight with a lance that goes right before his controlled mount. The first turn the knight does nothing because he is not in range. Then the mount charges to get within reach of an enemy. Then the wizard casts hypnotic pattern and that enemy gets charmed. Now the knight doesn't want to attack him so he wastes another turn because he can't move on his turn. Then he has the mount move over to get in range of the guy the barbarian is fighting. But the barbarian kills him this round so the knight wastes a third turn. We are 3 turns into combat and the knight has done nothing.
I guess that depends on who you think Jeremy Crawford meant when he said, "you." https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/857269467289534464?lang=en
Yes, this is a known and clunky thing about mounted combat.
Mounted combat is 5E is very clunky, per RAW. This is known.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
The issue is that mounts don't move you "on your turn", they take their own turn either before or after yours, they only share your initiative (not your turn); so strictly speaking in RAW you can use steady aim no matter how fast your mount is moving. Your enemies could also literally spend their turns blasting you around with Thunderwave, and it has no impact on your ability to use Steady Aim during your own turn (since Thunderwave only pushes you, it doesn't knock you prone unless you go over an edge or such).
But this feels very much like an edge case in rules as intended; I'd maybe allow it as a DM if the mount were only moving you slowly, but not if it's travelling at enough speed that it's no longer reasonable to consider your aim "steady".
Anyway, to the original issue of the thread, I don't see there being a lack of ranged Rogues; even before Steady Aim any Rogue could excel at range if you keep Hiding or have allies next to your targets. While there are no sub-classes with abilities that work super well at long range (many require you to be reasonably close) no properly equipped Rogue is ever bad at range, so there's really no need for one. Unless your DM is very generous, a ranged character won't stay at range for ever, or be able to get range when they want to, so having other things you can do at short range is always useful for an archer.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Hiding as I see it tends to be a better option than Steady Aim since most rogues have very good (usually Expertised) stealth rolls. The chance of failure to me seems to be outweighed by the fact that hidden enemies tend not to be attacked (disadvantage on attack rolls, plus if they fire into the wrong location it missses automatically), can move around still (if the monsters charge you, for example - giving disadvantage on you disadvantage on ranged attack rolls, which cancels Steady Aim). You also get advantage on your next attack roll as an unseen target. On the whole, I think this is worth it for a slim chance of failure. Most parties have a melee player for sneak attack so the advantage, while a nice bonus, isn't essential.
In terms of them being boring, most 'boring in combat' cases can be fixed by RPing through combat instead of just rolling the dice. "Yohan raises his bow and sights down the shaft of his arrow. He releases his arrow, sending it flying towards the goblin king's neck."
That's an extreme example but you see how taking a little additional description beyond "I roll to attack with my shortbow" makes combat more enjoyable generally? Same goes for describing movement: backflips, sliding, panting dashes and sprints all make your 30ft more enjoyable.
Chilling kinda vibe.