Going back and looking at the Scout subclass again, I noticed that there were odd design choices that either at least seem outdated, or seem to be intended to benefit those other than the user. As such, I was thinking of changes to each feature to make them more up-to-date and directly useful to the user, but I am unsure if they are excessive (I don't think they are, but it is good to get other opinions):
Level 3 - Survivalist: Currently grants proficiency in Nature & Survival if you don't have them, and gives expertise in them. The changes: to just grant proficiency in the above skills, then double proficiency for one or both if you already have proficiency, plus a choice of proficiency in another skill. (so if you have Survival proficiency, it becomes expertise and you can choose another skill; if you have both Survival and Nature, you can choose 2 extra skills).
Level 9 - Superior Mobility: Currently grants +10 speed, which applies to swim & climb speeds if you already have them. The change: to grant swim and/or climb speeds if they aren't already present.
Level 13 - Ambush Master: Currently grants advantage on initiative, plus grants advantage to you and friendlies on attacks against the first creature you hit, which lasts until the start of your next turn. The change: to extend the attack advantage to the end of your next turn.
Level 17 - Sudden Strike: If taking the Attack action, grants an extra attack using bonus action; which can include Sneak Attack (so twice per turn) only if attacking a different creature. The change: to let Sneak Attack be applied to the same creature.
As I recall, in more recent releases, things that grant Expertise instead grant proficiency, or expertise if you already have proficiency, so the change to Survivalist is along those lines. For Superior Mobility, again, as I recall more recent releases do grant a speed (not just an increase), so this is also along those lines. For Ambush Master, given that Rogues baseline only get 1 attack per turn (2 if with an opportunity attack), it seemed odd to me for this feature to be so limited in this aspect. For Sudden Strike, this feature is negligible against a singular opponent, so this change is to account for such circumstances.
The 3rd level change is awash and I think it is already supported by the rules. If you have proficiency in a skill and something else gives you a proficiency in the same skill I think you can choose another RAW. So I think most of that is already there.
I don't really play enough at higher levels to say if the changes are good, but I will say that scout is underpowered compared to other Rogues so I think these changes would be good.
as for A: the description is a bit odd, but in the feature it would be worded something like this "You gain proficiency in the Intelligence (Nature) and Wisdom (Survival) skills. If you already have proficiency in one or both of these skills, it becomes expertise, and you gain proficiency in one or two skills of your choice, accordingly".
as for B: I was thinking it would grant the speeds in addition to the +10 feet of movement.
as for A: the description is a bit odd, but in the feature it would be worded something like this "You gain proficiency in the Intelligence (Nature) and Wisdom (Survival) skills. If you already have proficiency in one or both of these skills, it becomes expertise, and you gain proficiency in one or two skills of your choice, accordingly".
as for B: I was thinking it would grant the speeds in addition to the +10 feet of movement.
Those should all work to make the subclass better and B could make interesting combat and roleplay scenarios!
The 3rd level change is awash and I think it is already supported by the rules. If you have proficiency in a skill and something else gives you a proficiency in the same skill I think you can choose another RAW. So I think most of that is already there.
Strictly speaking, that only applies to skills you gain at level 1.
That said, I don't like that anyone considering going scout is going to actively choose not to have survival or nature as a skill, so I would definitely allow them to swap the skill out anyway.
as for A: the description is a bit odd, but in the feature it would be worded something like this "You gain proficiency in the Intelligence (Nature) and Wisdom (Survival) skills. If you already have proficiency in one or both of these skills, it becomes expertise, and you gain proficiency in one or two skills of your choice, accordingly".
as for B: I was thinking it would grant the speeds in addition to the +10 feet of movement.
Your versions of Ambush Master and Sudden Strike are incredibly powerful, especially in combination with each other. Ambush Master basically guarantees an extra 7D6 of damage, double that on a crit and not unlikley before the enemy even has time to do anything (especially if combined with the Alert feat or a 3 levels of Gloomstalker). Extending that to the second round of combat pretty much doubles that, especially since you don't have to get any help for the Sneak Attack from any of your allies. It would allow the Scout to take out incredibly strong enemies in just a few turns. If you have a ranged weapon and the Sharpshooter feat it gets even worse.
Now let's move on the Sudden Strike. TWO of these incredibly powerful, free advantage, first strike, guaranteed Sneak Attacks. But now with 9D6 of extra damage. That's better than even the Assassin. I'd say it's too much, especially for this subclass.
As to Ambush Master: RAW it is "...the first creature you hit during the first round of a combat becomes easier for you and others to strike; attack rolls against that target have advantage until the start of your next turn."
Assuming you hit any creature in turn 1, your lower initiative allies are granted advantage against them during turn 1 , and you have advantage against them if you do a reaction attack, that's all. Ambush Master does not give you advantage in turn 1.
My change just extends the advantage you are granted to covering your second turn, not just the gap between your 1st and 2nd turn, so you know for a fact you can use it, assuming the creature is still alive.
As to Sudden Strike: RAW, you already get 2 Sneak Attacks on turn 1, if you hit 2 separate creatures. If there is only 1 creature, this feature doesn't apply RAW. My change simply allows this to work when fighting a single enemy.
As to the combined effects of the 2 changes: They would mean you could get 2 Sneak Attacks against a single creature in turn 1, and 2 Sneak Attacks with advantage in turn 2, possibly against the same creature.
These changes do not guarantee advantage in turn 1.
As to the Assassin, it has its own problems, and needs to be highly revised to address them, so it isn't a good point of comparison.
As to Ambush Master: RAW it is "...the first creature you hit during the first round of a combat becomes easier for you and others to strike; attack rolls against that target have advantage until the start of your next turn."
Assuming you hit any creature in turn 1, your lower initiative allies are granted advantage against them during turn 1 , and you have advantage against them if you do a reaction attack, that's all. Ambush Master does not give you advantage in turn 1.
My change just extends the advantage you are granted to covering your second turn, not just the gap between your 1st and 2nd turn, so you know for a fact you can use it, assuming the creature is still alive.
Exactly, which makes it incredibly powerful.
As to Sudden Strike: RAW, you already get 2 Sneak Attacks on turn 1, if you hit 2 separate creatures. If there is only 1 creature, this feature doesn't apply RAW. My change simply allows this to work when fighting a single enemy.
Which makes it incredibly powerful. There's a reason SA is limited to once per turn.
As to the combined effects of the 2 changes: They would mean you could get 2 Sneak Attacks against a single creature in turn 1, and 2 Sneak Attacks with advantage in turn 2, possibly against the same creature.
Which, again, makes it incredibly powerful.
These changes do not guarantee advantage in turn 1.
Never said they did. But Steady Aim is a thing.
As to the Assassin, it has its own problems, and needs to be highly revised to address them, so it isn't a good point of comparison.
There's not justification for the Scout to be a better assassin than the Assassin...
Now let's move on the Sudden Strike. TWO of these incredibly powerful, free advantage, first strike, guaranteed Sneak Attacks.
First strikes are just that, the first strikes/hits against something. They only happen in turn 1.
The Scout subclass includes nothing that gives advantage to these strikes, and none of my proposed changes gives advantage to them either.
There's not justification for the Scout to be a better assassin than the Assassin...
Correct. The problem is that the Assassin subclass is terrible in its design, being (one of) the worst Rogue subclass(es).
Its 9th and 13th level features are so heavily governed by the decisions of the DM that they are basically just codified results of skill checks.
Its 3rd and 17th level features defining benefits only apply if you both A) surprise a creature, and B) roll higher on initiative than them. In addition, the 17th level feature requires the creature to fail a Constitution saving throw, which is the least likely for them to fail. Even the 3rd level attack advantage is still dependent on opponents not having had their turn yet.
Honestly, the Ranger Gloom Stalker features fit better for an assassin than the Assassin subclass.
Now let's move on the Sudden Strike. TWO of these incredibly powerful, free advantage, first strike, guaranteed Sneak Attacks.
Except that you are choosing to interpret me wrong.
First strikes are just that, the first strikes/hits against something. They only happen in turn 1.
"First strike" means to strike first. It was referring to the high likelyness that the Scout would win the initiative roll due to advantage and possible multiclassing and feats. And thus get the first strike.
The Scout subclass includes nothing that gives advantage to these strikes, and none of my proposed changes gives advantage to them either.
Your suggestion is "to extend the attack advantage to the end of your next turn." How does that NOT give advantage to the Scouts attacks on turn 2?
There's not justification for the Scout to be a better assassin than the Assassin...
Correct. The problem is that the Assassin subclass is terrible in its design, being (one of) the worst Rogue subclass(es).
Perhaps, but again, that doesn't justify making the Scout an even better assassin.
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Going back and looking at the Scout subclass again, I noticed that there were odd design choices that either at least seem outdated, or seem to be intended to benefit those other than the user. As such, I was thinking of changes to each feature to make them more up-to-date and directly useful to the user, but I am unsure if they are excessive (I don't think they are, but it is good to get other opinions):
Level 3 - Survivalist: Currently grants proficiency in Nature & Survival if you don't have them, and gives expertise in them.
The changes: to just grant proficiency in the above skills, then double proficiency for one or both if you already have proficiency, plus a choice of proficiency in another skill. (so if you have Survival proficiency, it becomes expertise and you can choose another skill; if you have both Survival and Nature, you can choose 2 extra skills).
Level 9 - Superior Mobility: Currently grants +10 speed, which applies to swim & climb speeds if you already have them.
The change: to grant swim and/or climb speeds if they aren't already present.
Level 13 - Ambush Master: Currently grants advantage on initiative, plus grants advantage to you and friendlies on attacks against the first creature you hit, which lasts until the start of your next turn.
The change: to extend the attack advantage to the end of your next turn.
Level 17 - Sudden Strike: If taking the Attack action, grants an extra attack using bonus action; which can include Sneak Attack (so twice per turn) only if attacking a different creature.
The change: to let Sneak Attack be applied to the same creature.
As I recall, in more recent releases, things that grant Expertise instead grant proficiency, or expertise if you already have proficiency, so the change to Survivalist is along those lines.
For Superior Mobility, again, as I recall more recent releases do grant a speed (not just an increase), so this is also along those lines.
For Ambush Master, given that Rogues baseline only get 1 attack per turn (2 if with an opportunity attack), it seemed odd to me for this feature to be so limited in this aspect.
For Sudden Strike, this feature is negligible against a singular opponent, so this change is to account for such circumstances.
I really like the 9th level feature change.
The 3rd level change is awash and I think it is already supported by the rules. If you have proficiency in a skill and something else gives you a proficiency in the same skill I think you can choose another RAW. So I think most of that is already there.
I don't really play enough at higher levels to say if the changes are good, but I will say that scout is underpowered compared to other Rogues so I think these changes would be good.
A. The third level sounds good but is a bit confusing and wordy.
B. Would the ninth level give just the swim/climb speeds or also the +10 feet of movement.
C. The new version sounds like it would work better.
D. Just sounds better.
All of those changes seem good and kinda balanced as long as your DM is aware of the class changes and gives the OK.
Thanks for the feedback.
as for A: the description is a bit odd, but in the feature it would be worded something like this "You gain proficiency in the Intelligence (Nature) and Wisdom (Survival) skills. If you already have proficiency in one or both of these skills, it becomes expertise, and you gain proficiency in one or two skills of your choice, accordingly".
as for B: I was thinking it would grant the speeds in addition to the +10 feet of movement.
Those should all work to make the subclass better and B could make interesting combat and roleplay scenarios!
They're not excessive changes but the Scout doesn't really need them. It's a solid subclass as it is.
Strictly speaking, that only applies to skills you gain at level 1.
That said, I don't like that anyone considering going scout is going to actively choose not to have survival or nature as a skill, so I would definitely allow them to swap the skill out anyway.
Your versions of Ambush Master and Sudden Strike are incredibly powerful, especially in combination with each other. Ambush Master basically guarantees an extra 7D6 of damage, double that on a crit and not unlikley before the enemy even has time to do anything (especially if combined with the Alert feat or a 3 levels of Gloomstalker). Extending that to the second round of combat pretty much doubles that, especially since you don't have to get any help for the Sneak Attack from any of your allies. It would allow the Scout to take out incredibly strong enemies in just a few turns. If you have a ranged weapon and the Sharpshooter feat it gets even worse.
Now let's move on the Sudden Strike. TWO of these incredibly powerful, free advantage, first strike, guaranteed Sneak Attacks. But now with 9D6 of extra damage. That's better than even the Assassin. I'd say it's too much, especially for this subclass.
As to Ambush Master: RAW it is "...the first creature you hit during the first round of a combat becomes easier for you and others to strike; attack rolls against that target have advantage until the start of your next turn."
Assuming you hit any creature in turn 1, your lower initiative allies are granted advantage against them during turn 1 , and you have advantage against them if you do a reaction attack, that's all. Ambush Master does not give you advantage in turn 1.
My change just extends the advantage you are granted to covering your second turn, not just the gap between your 1st and 2nd turn, so you know for a fact you can use it, assuming the creature is still alive.
As to Sudden Strike: RAW, you already get 2 Sneak Attacks on turn 1, if you hit 2 separate creatures. If there is only 1 creature, this feature doesn't apply RAW. My change simply allows this to work when fighting a single enemy.
As to the combined effects of the 2 changes: They would mean you could get 2 Sneak Attacks against a single creature in turn 1, and 2 Sneak Attacks with advantage in turn 2, possibly against the same creature.
These changes do not guarantee advantage in turn 1.
As to the Assassin, it has its own problems, and needs to be highly revised to address them, so it isn't a good point of comparison.
Exactly, which makes it incredibly powerful.
Which makes it incredibly powerful. There's a reason SA is limited to once per turn.
Which, again, makes it incredibly powerful.
Never said they did. But Steady Aim is a thing.
There's not justification for the Scout to be a better assassin than the Assassin...
You did say this, to quote:
First strikes are just that, the first strikes/hits against something. They only happen in turn 1.
The Scout subclass includes nothing that gives advantage to these strikes, and none of my proposed changes gives advantage to them either.
Correct. The problem is that the Assassin subclass is terrible in its design, being (one of) the worst Rogue subclass(es).
Its 9th and 13th level features are so heavily governed by the decisions of the DM that they are basically just codified results of skill checks.
Its 3rd and 17th level features defining benefits only apply if you both A) surprise a creature, and B) roll higher on initiative than them. In addition, the 17th level feature requires the creature to fail a Constitution saving throw, which is the least likely for them to fail. Even the 3rd level attack advantage is still dependent on opponents not having had their turn yet.
Honestly, the Ranger Gloom Stalker features fit better for an assassin than the Assassin subclass.
Except that you are choosing to interpret me wrong.
"First strike" means to strike first. It was referring to the high likelyness that the Scout would win the initiative roll due to advantage and possible multiclassing and feats. And thus get the first strike.
Your suggestion is "to extend the attack advantage to the end of your next turn." How does that NOT give advantage to the Scouts attacks on turn 2?
Perhaps, but again, that doesn't justify making the Scout an even better assassin.