I dont thing blade cantrips work with extra attack, unless you mean the bonus action cantrip.
Once they get Extra Attack Bladesingers can swap one of their attacks for a cantrip, which means they can use Green Flame Blade to attack once and then attack again.
You cast mirror image and upcast shadow blade to do let's say 4d8 damage. You need to wait to next turn for you to attack twice.
This is why I say to cast it if you have time, i.e- if you're initiating the fight so can cast something before the first actual turn of combat. You can however also throw it up if you get in trouble, though again, Bladesingers have a ridiculous effective AC; with Mage Armor and a decent Dexterity score you're look at a base AC of 16-18, plus Bladesong for another +3-5, and if that's not enough you can still cast Shield. You need to actually take damage to take a concentration check, so anything attack based is pretty well covered, and for anything that does get through (or bypasses AC) Bladesong boosts Concentration checks, and War Caster is an obvious feat pick for such a build to also gain advantage, or Resilient (Constitution) if you need the extra Ability Score point to make the build work.
Anyway, it's a bit off-topic for this thread, I'm just pointing out why I believe this combo was specifically disallowed on purpose. While full casters can potentially do more damage, a lot of the time that's single target, single attacks (or saves) or blasts that may be hard to position to full effect, this combo gives a lot of damage at very little cost (for the damage itself it's just one slot for Shadow Blade), and it's pretty reliable damage too if you can get the advantage on the attacks (for dim light or darkness).
For Arcane Tricksters specifically they're already very strong; even when forced to choose between the cantrip or Shadow Blade they're still easily the highest damage Rogue sub-class over multiple encounters as Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade alone deal the same damage as Sneak Attack and can be used on top of it (so double damage when sneak conditions are met). Shadow Blade is actually in some ways the weaker of the options, except that it can guarantee Sneak Attacks in dim light or darkness, not to mention increased chance to hit and crit.
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I agree that it is an OP combo. I actually ran the math:
Hypothetical Level 11 Pure Arcane Trickster. Dex of 18 and mod of +4. AC 17. Picked up booming blade through normal picks or high elf choice. Has war caster feat. Uses booming blade with shadow blade. If they hit both an attack and an AOO from war caster here is the average damage.
8d8 (damage from normal attack with bonus damage from BB) + 10d6 (Sneak Attack) + 6d8 (Potential Movement Damage) Average: 98 Max Damage: 158
Now this also means that since your using shadow blade, you wont get any damage or to hit bonuses from magic weapons, and with rogues it is also assuming that both hits land and sneak attack is appliable in both. In a server im in, an unoptimized PAM Paladin at level 10 can do average 84 damage, and that is only with a plus 1 glaive, including a reaction attack. Definetly not the most optimised build.
Here is a blade singer at level 11. I never played bladesinger so i think what you mean is they can attack once, the cantrip, then bonus action cantrip correct? If so, here is the damage: Upcasts shadow blade to 6th level because there is a boss or smth. Has war caster. Dex of +2 because they had to take a feat. Mage armour so AC 15. Also, as you said, casts mirror image before the battle Here is the damage:
6d8 (first attack) + 8d8 (second cantrip attack with booming blade) + 8d8 (bonus action cantrip attack) + 8d8 (war caster reaction attack) + 9d8 (movement damage on all attacks) Average: 175 Max Damage: 241
This is assuming the absurd fact that the bladesinger upcast shadow blade that high, and that they ht all their attacks. This also means that the wizard loses all in and out of combat utility, because of concentratio, a wasted level 6 spell slot, and the concentration. And if a wizard is doing that much damage, they will be drawing alot of attention from minions or the BBEG. And some builds can achieve this damage at lower levels, despite lack of utility, which this buold idea loses. So totally is a good combo, but not the best.
I never played bladesinger so i think what you mean is they can attack once, the cantrip, then bonus action cantrip correct?
Actually no; Bladesingers get Extra Attack at 6th level, and they can swap one of those two attacks for a cantrip, so they can still cast a full spell as a bonus action (if they have any bonus action spells).
Upcasts shadow blade to 6th level because there is a boss or smth. Has war caster. Dex of +2 because they had to take a feat. Mage armour so AC 15. Also, as you said, casts mirror image before the battle Here is the damage
You might actually be assuming somewhat low stats; here's an example character with full optimisation (dumping Strength, Wisdom and Charisma for +3 Dexterity, +3 Constitution and +4 Intelligence after one feat and one ASI), you could actually also flip the Dexterity and Intelligence around, and could optimise even further with half-elf or variant human.
a wasted level 6 spell slot
I wouldn't cast Shadow Blade at 6th level, its damage increments are 2nd, 3rd or 4th, 5th or 6th, i.e- same damage from a 5th level slot, it doesn't go up for last time until you cast it at 7th level.
In the example you'll see I'm also assuming an average roll for False Life at 4th level for a respectable 101 hitpoints, and I've edited in the AC from Mage Armor (it lasts 8 hours so you should never be without it). During Bladesong that's an AC of 20, with Shield available to jump it to 25, making it hard to hit.
This also means that the wizard loses all in and out of combat utility, because of concentration
What lack of utility? I've still got 4 cantrips and 8 prepared spells leftover, and that's after adding a few extras like Absorb Elements (handy for when damage bypasses the AC), Feather Fall and Misty Step (fun one for Booming Blade). Could easily slap Fireball on there for when you don't want to get close, and a bunch of utility spells and cantrips as well.
It's a strong Wizard build, and a lot of fun to play without needing the combo of adding the cantrips to a Shadow Blade, and I definitely think it's too strong with it.
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Fair enough. I realise now how op it is, But I also miscalculated damage for upcasting. Didnt realise it upcast like Spiritual Weapon. But hey, it works on my table, so i wont argue with you.
I would not allow it no and most of the tables I have played at don't either, but some DMs do. So it really does not matter what I would do, it is whatever your DM says.
ou might actually be assuming somewhat low stats; here's an example character with full optimisation (dumping Strength, Wisdom and Charisma for +3 Dexterity, +3 Constitution and +4 Intelligence after one feat and one ASI), you could actually also flip the Dexterity and Intelligence around, and could optimise even further with half-elf or variant human.
In my experience Wisdom is FAR more important than constitution on a Bladesinger. I would argue full optimization on a bladesinger is a 10 constitution and a 14 Wisdom. Wisdom saves are a heck of a lot more important than hps or con saves, especially since the incapacitated condition, even for 1 turn, takes down bladesong.
You can get more hps through false life than you will through a 16 constitution and you can cast it long before a battle, at high levels you can put a 5th-level false life on Contingency too. It is much harder to get mirror image in before a fight starts and once you hit the top of tier 2 it won't last more than 2 rounds.
Constitution does help with concentration saves, but you are not hit by attacks enough for that to matter most of the time and when you are hit by a high damage breath weapon or spell it is not usually enough of a difference to matter.
If I am going all out as a melee bladesinger usually I am starting with S8,D16C10,I17,W14 unless I am playing a half Elf or Dwarf. If I am playing those I start with a 12 Constitution instead of a 10
Once they get Extra Attack Bladesingers can swap one of their attacks for a cantrip, which means they can use Green Flame Blade to attack once and then attack again.
This is why I say to cast it if you have time, i.e- if you're initiating the fight so can cast something before the first actual turn of combat. You can however also throw it up if you get in trouble, though again, Bladesingers have a ridiculous effective AC; with Mage Armor and a decent Dexterity score you're look at a base AC of 16-18, plus Bladesong for another +3-5, and if that's not enough you can still cast Shield. You need to actually take damage to take a concentration check, so anything attack based is pretty well covered, and for anything that does get through (or bypasses AC) Bladesong boosts Concentration checks, and War Caster is an obvious feat pick for such a build to also gain advantage, or Resilient (Constitution) if you need the extra Ability Score point to make the build work.
Anyway, it's a bit off-topic for this thread, I'm just pointing out why I believe this combo was specifically disallowed on purpose. While full casters can potentially do more damage, a lot of the time that's single target, single attacks (or saves) or blasts that may be hard to position to full effect, this combo gives a lot of damage at very little cost (for the damage itself it's just one slot for Shadow Blade), and it's pretty reliable damage too if you can get the advantage on the attacks (for dim light or darkness).
For Arcane Tricksters specifically they're already very strong; even when forced to choose between the cantrip or Shadow Blade they're still easily the highest damage Rogue sub-class over multiple encounters as Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade alone deal the same damage as Sneak Attack and can be used on top of it (so double damage when sneak conditions are met). Shadow Blade is actually in some ways the weaker of the options, except that it can guarantee Sneak Attacks in dim light or darkness, not to mention increased chance to hit and crit.
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I agree that it is an OP combo. I actually ran the math:
Hypothetical Level 11 Pure Arcane Trickster. Dex of 18 and mod of +4. AC 17. Picked up booming blade through normal picks or high elf choice. Has war caster feat. Uses booming blade with shadow blade. If they hit both an attack and an AOO from war caster here is the average damage.
8d8 (damage from normal attack with bonus damage from BB) + 10d6 (Sneak Attack) + 6d8 (Potential Movement Damage)
Average: 98
Max Damage: 158
Now if both crit:
16d8 + 20d6 + 6d8 + 8
Average: 169
Max Damage: 235
Now this also means that since your using shadow blade, you wont get any damage or to hit bonuses from magic weapons, and with rogues it is also assuming that both hits land and sneak attack is appliable in both. In a server im in, an unoptimized PAM Paladin at level 10 can do average 84 damage, and that is only with a plus 1 glaive, including a reaction attack. Definetly not the most optimised build.
Here is a blade singer at level 11. I never played bladesinger so i think what you mean is they can attack once, the cantrip, then bonus action cantrip correct? If so, here is the damage:
Upcasts shadow blade to 6th level because there is a boss or smth. Has war caster. Dex of +2 because they had to take a feat. Mage armour so AC 15. Also, as you said, casts mirror image before the battle Here is the damage:
6d8 (first attack) + 8d8 (second cantrip attack with booming blade) + 8d8 (bonus action cantrip attack) + 8d8 (war caster reaction attack) + 9d8 (movement damage on all attacks)
Average: 175
Max Damage: 241
On a Crit:
12d8 + 16d8 + 16d8 + 16d8 + 9d8:
Average: 310
Max Damage: 395
This is assuming the absurd fact that the bladesinger upcast shadow blade that high, and that they ht all their attacks. This also means that the wizard loses all in and out of combat utility, because of concentratio, a wasted level 6 spell slot, and the concentration. And if a wizard is doing that much damage, they will be drawing alot of attention from minions or the BBEG. And some builds can achieve this damage at lower levels, despite lack of utility, which this buold idea loses. So totally is a good combo, but not the best.
Actually no; Bladesingers get Extra Attack at 6th level, and they can swap one of those two attacks for a cantrip, so they can still cast a full spell as a bonus action (if they have any bonus action spells).
You might actually be assuming somewhat low stats; here's an example character with full optimisation (dumping Strength, Wisdom and Charisma for +3 Dexterity, +3 Constitution and +4 Intelligence after one feat and one ASI), you could actually also flip the Dexterity and Intelligence around, and could optimise even further with half-elf or variant human.
I wouldn't cast Shadow Blade at 6th level, its damage increments are 2nd, 3rd or 4th, 5th or 6th, i.e- same damage from a 5th level slot, it doesn't go up for last time until you cast it at 7th level.
In the example you'll see I'm also assuming an average roll for False Life at 4th level for a respectable 101 hitpoints, and I've edited in the AC from Mage Armor (it lasts 8 hours so you should never be without it). During Bladesong that's an AC of 20, with Shield available to jump it to 25, making it hard to hit.
What lack of utility? I've still got 4 cantrips and 8 prepared spells leftover, and that's after adding a few extras like Absorb Elements (handy for when damage bypasses the AC), Feather Fall and Misty Step (fun one for Booming Blade). Could easily slap Fireball on there for when you don't want to get close, and a bunch of utility spells and cantrips as well.
It's a strong Wizard build, and a lot of fun to play without needing the combo of adding the cantrips to a Shadow Blade, and I definitely think it's too strong with it.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Fair enough. I realise now how op it is, But I also miscalculated damage for upcasting. Didnt realise it upcast like Spiritual Weapon. But hey, it works on my table, so i wont argue with you.
I would not allow it no and most of the tables I have played at don't either, but some DMs do. So it really does not matter what I would do, it is whatever your DM says.
This does make SB significantly more powerful.
In my experience Wisdom is FAR more important than constitution on a Bladesinger. I would argue full optimization on a bladesinger is a 10 constitution and a 14 Wisdom. Wisdom saves are a heck of a lot more important than hps or con saves, especially since the incapacitated condition, even for 1 turn, takes down bladesong.
You can get more hps through false life than you will through a 16 constitution and you can cast it long before a battle, at high levels you can put a 5th-level false life on Contingency too. It is much harder to get mirror image in before a fight starts and once you hit the top of tier 2 it won't last more than 2 rounds.
Constitution does help with concentration saves, but you are not hit by attacks enough for that to matter most of the time and when you are hit by a high damage breath weapon or spell it is not usually enough of a difference to matter.
If I am going all out as a melee bladesinger usually I am starting with S8,D16C10,I17,W14 unless I am playing a half Elf or Dwarf. If I am playing those I start with a 12 Constitution instead of a 10