I'm trying to figure out the best way to level up my character to be as optimized as possible. He is currently a Glasya Tiefling 5 Rogue/3 Warlock and has a stat spread of 9/20/19/14/15/20. Other features are Crossbow Expert, Invocations are Agonizing Blast and Devil's Sight, and Boon is Pact of the Blade. We are currently transitioning between games since our last DM didn't work out very well and we are being allowed to change things before we officially start next week. Any help is appreciated ^.^
If you can change subclasses and want to remain a swashbuckler, change to an undead warlock. This is really going to help with being a melee Rogue. The problem with swashbucklers is they don't take AOOs and can sneak attack lone enemies, but they also usually do not have enough movement to get far enough away to keep that unengaged enemy off of them. Form of dread will provide a fear effect to keep enemies from chasing you down and attacking you.
Then I would trade XBE for Fey Touched with hex. This lets you cast Hex once as a 1st level spell plus gives you a once a day misty step. I would also take my next two levels as a warlock and pick up thirsting blade and trade agonizing blast for improved pact weapon. For spells pick up Fear and Summon Fey. Fear is a freaking awesome spell especially with a Rogue that can dash as a bonus action and sneak attack without anyone threatening. Cast fear then just chase after the bad guys landing sneak attacks as reactions and actions and they get no save. Or cast summon Fey (Tricksey), then attack with form of dread-frighten-back off- Fey attacks-Fey casts charm as bonus. The combo of frightened and charmed is really debilitating.
If you can't change your subclass then still go to 5th level as a warlock and get thirsting blade and improved pact weapon. Then decide if you want to be ranged or melee primary. If you want melee prime pick up a rapier as pack weapon and hand crossbow as ranged. If you want to be ranged primary get a heavy crossbow as improved pact weapon and pick up short swords or scimitars as you melee weapons.
If you can change subclasses and want to remain a swashbuckler, change to an undead warlock.
I'm not sure I'd recommend this change personally. While you can definitely make a good melee character using undead (it's a great sub-class) it's a very different theme and there are a lot of things you lose compared to Hexblade; medium armor proficiency and attacking with Charisma are both fantastic boosts (and work well together), as it means you're not as reliant on Dexterity and can take more Constitution instead. Hexblade's Curse is also really neat for a Rogue multiclass because of the increased critical chance IMO.
The problem with swashbucklers is they don't take AOOs and can sneak attack lone enemies, but they also usually do not have enough movement to get far enough away to keep that unengaged enemy off of them.
A Swashbuckler only needs to attack (not hit) a creature to effectively Disengage from it, which leaves your bonus action free to Dash instead, so you can move 60 feet every turn if you want to. Combine with booming blade and even in the case where you can't get full away from an enemy, if you hit them they'll at least be taking extra damage if they follow you. Worst case you're only really stuck in range of an enemy once every two turns (as if you start next to them, then you can move the full 60 feet away).
So IMO it's not a big deal, not enough that you need to change sub-class.
As for optimising the Hexblade/Swashbuckler combo, that's kind of difficult; it's good to get to level 5 Rogue as quickly as possible for Uncanny Dodge and to get a decent amount of sneak attack dice. Then I'd aim for Warlock 3 for a decent amount of spellcasting.
After that is tricky, and really depends how far you expect a campaign to go; if you're expecting to max out around level 10-12 I'd personally take the extra levels in Rogue for more sneak attack damage and Evasion (at Rogue 7) but it kind of depends on personal preference, as Warlock 5 means more spellcasting (and 3rd-level spells, which have some neat options depending upon what you want, also the option of thirsting blade for two attacks though it doesn't work with booming blade which is IMO better).
Multiclassing is always difficult because there's never really a perfect balance, and what you need depends a lot on the group and what you want from the character.
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I'm not sure I'd recommend this change personally. While you can definitely make a good melee character using undead (it's a great sub-class) it's a very different theme and there are a lot of things you lose compared to Hexblade; medium armor proficiency and attacking with Charisma are both fantastic boosts (and work well together), as it means you're not as reliant on Dexterity and can take more Constitution instead. Hexblade's Curse is also really neat for a Rogue multiclass because of the increased critical chance IMO.
He has a 20 dexterity so medium armor is a bad choice. Studded leather is AC17, Half plate is the same AC. The only thing medium armor would do is give him disadvantage on stealth and more weight to carry.
Attacking with Charisma is also irrelevant when dexterity is 20 and any weapon you can sneak attack with can use dexterity.
Hexblade curse is nice, but it is not as nice as an enemy saving against being frightened every round along with about 10 temp hps.
The other thing you get from Hexblade is martial weapons which in terms of weapons that matter is whip, scimitar and heavy crossbow and if you want to use one of these you can do it with improved pact weapon anyway.
A Swashbuckler only needs to attack (not hit) a creature to effectively Disengage from it, which leaves your bonus action free to Dash instead, so you can move 60 feet every turn if you want to.
Only if you don't use a bonus action to attack (and try to land sneak attack) or switch targets with hex or something else and only if you were close enough at the startof your that you can get far enough away, but that is not nearly automatic.
What you are missing is you have to move to attack the bad guy to start with and that takes movement away from that 60 number. If you start the turn 20 feat from an enemy you move up and attack then move back 40 feet. 40 feet might be enough for an enemy not to get to you and it might not be enough, especially if he has a 10' reach. If you give up on TWF, that is more or less the best you can normally do with a 30 move unless you started abnormally close.
Moreover if you do back away far enough that the enemy can't get to you, then next turn you need to dash to close 40 feet, attack, and move 20 feet away and almost any enemy can close that distance and attack you even after you used dash.
On the other hand if you frighten him you just need to move barely out of reach, so you can use your bonus for something else and stay close enough that it is easy to get in and attack next turn without using dash. If he makes his save, or you miss THEN you go ahead and use the dash to "get the heck out of dodge".
IME the problem with fancy footwork is unless someone else moves into a threatening position the enemy can usually (not always) get to the Rogue, which severely nerfs the feature. The frightened condition stops that cold (assuming he fails and can be frightened)
As for optimising the Hexblade/Swashbuckler combo, that's kind of difficult; it's good to get to level 5 Rogue as quickly as possible for Uncanny Dodge and to get a decent amount of sneak attack dice. Then I'd aim for Warlock 3 for a decent amount of spellcasting.
So this is why I think Undead is so much better mechanically. Going to level 5 gets you extra attack and improved pact weapon, which will outrun an extra d6 sneak attack by a lot (especially since it is another chance to land sneak attack). The frightened effect will make up for the loss in uncanny dodge since you will not be getting attacked as much and a lot of times you are attacked will be with disadvantage. So you have something that is more or less equal to uncanny dodge while doing more damage and having better spells.
Speaking of which level 5 gives you shadowblade which hits for 3d8 on top of your normal attacks with your pact weapon
He has a 20 dexterity so medium armor is a bad choice. Studded leather is AC17, Half plate is the same AC. The only thing medium armor would do is give him disadvantage on stealth and more weight to carry.
Somehow I missed the stats, that's some pretty damned good early rolling! In that case Armor of Shadows is a perfectly good pick as that's a full 18 AC for free (other than the eldritch invocation choice it costs).
Hexblade curse is nice, but it is not as nice as an enemy saving against being frightened every round along with about 10 temp hps.
Eh, I'm mixed on frightened personally; while it's nice when it triggers, it's not guaranteed and only affects one enemy at a time, plus some enemies are resistant or fully immune to it. It also doesn't prevent something from attacking you at all.
As for the temporary hit-points, it's nice that they're free, but for a melee hexblade/rogue you want to be running armor of agathys anyway as it will be more temporary HP at higher levels, and if you're dealing damage up close it will hurt the enemy even more if they hit you. This is where Hexblade/Rogue can be great because thanks to Uncanny Dodge you can absorb a bit more damage while dealing more to the enemy; combo with hellish rebuke and you can seriously punish an enemy for that first hit, though it burns your pact slots quick.
The other thing you get from Hexblade is martial weapons which in terms of weapons that matter is whip, scimitar and heavy crossbow and if you want to use one of these you can do it with improved pact weapon anyway.
That forces you to stay with pact of the blade though, and is eating another of your eldritch invocations.
I'd argue that you don't need pact of the blade on a hexblade, and you're often better going for chain or tome; personally I go with tome for the added utility of a load of extra cantrips, and if you're going to take a pact invocation then it's hard to beat access to rituals on a warlock, though with such high stats you can spare an ability score to get ritual caster as a feat, but there are other feats you may want more. Chain is also good for a familiar, simply being able to cast through it lets you turn touch spells into ranged threats.
Hexblade lets you fight with a shortsword or rapier without eating up any invocations or forcing you to take a specific pact.
What you are missing is you have to move to attack the bad guy to start with and that takes movement away from that 60 number. If you start the turn 20 feat from an enemy you move up and attack then move back 40 feet. 40 feet might be enough for an enemy not to get to you and it might not be enough, especially if he has a 10' reach. If you give up on TWF, that is more or less the best you can normally do with a 30 move unless you started abnormally close.
I'm not missing it, I even mentioned it; if the enemy can get to you then that only guarantees you can move beyond its reach next turn (start right next to it).
I'm also specifically recommending the use of booming blade to either discourage the enemy's movement, or to punish them for it. While it's more high risk, you'll do more damage overall with booming blade than with two weapon attacks, and it suits the Rogue style of fewer, deadlier attacks anyway, especially if you can get a critical hit (which is more likely with Hexblade's Curse, especially if you can get advantage somehow).
Speaking of which level 5 gives you shadowblade which hits for 3d8 on top of your normal attacks with your pact weapon
Sadly that's not how shadow blade works (also can't you take it at 3rd?); shadow blade doesn't augment a weapon it summons a whole new weapon that deals 2d8 psychic damage on a hit (or more if up-cast), but it doesn't work with thirsting blade because unlike a true Extra Attack feature, thirsting blade only works with your pact weapon, which a shadow blade cannot be (it doesn't last long enough to turn it into one). Plus it requires a pact slot, and booming blade doesn't.
I'm not saying that I think Hexblade is superior, but I think in practice they're kind of the same overall, especially as a multiclass, and you should pick what fits the theme best; the OP already chose Hexblade for some reason, and it works very nicely with Rogue. Undead will work fine too, but it's in no way mandatory even for ruthless optimisation IMO.
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Eh, I'm mixed on frightened personally; while it's nice when it triggers, it's not guaranteed and only affects one enemy at a time, plus some enemies are resistant or fully immune to it. It also doesn't prevent something from attacking you at all.
Frightened absolutley prevents someone from attacking you if they don't have a ranged attack. All you have to do is get out of reach and he can't move any closer to you because that is part of frightened. This is why it is a perfect combination with fancy footwork. You don't have to dash out of movement range, all you need to do is move out of reach and unless he has a ranged attack, he can't attack you because he can't move closer to you. If he does have a ranged attack it is with disadvantage.
You are right it is not garaunteed, but you still have cunning action and you know right after you attack whether you need to use it or not. Form of Dread is a perfect pairing with a swashbuckler due to the affect frightened has on movement..
As for the temporary hit-points, it's nice that they're free, but for a melee hexblade/rogue you want to be running armor of agathys anyway as it will be more temporary HP at higher levels, and if you're dealing damage up close it will hurt the enemy even more if they hit you. This is where Hexblade/Rogue can be great because thanks to Uncanny Dodge you can absorb a bit more damage while dealing more to the enemy; combo with hellish rebuke and you can seriously punish an enemy for that first hit, though it burns your pact slots quick.
I think AOA is not that great if you are avoiding melee attacks, because it only causes damage against enemies that hit you in melee. That said any Warlock can run armor of agathys and hellish rebuke, so you can do this with an undead warlock. I just don't think it is awesome on a multiclass swashbuckler because you won't have high level slots and when you hit Rogue 5 HR will conflict with uncanny dodge. Also you only have 2 spell slots, so AOA and HR is all of your casting. So even if you go this route you can still use form of dread (as a bonus action) once AOA drops or forget the temp hit points and just use it for the frightened.
Finally in terms of damage something like Hex, shadowblade or Spirit shroud is going to do more damage over the long haul I think and control spells are better than any of these. AOA is ok, but because you are splitting classes so you won't have a ton of temp hps (or a ton of cold damage). To make the comarison easy - at 5th level if you comapare a 15hp AOA to summon shadowspawn I think the latter will save more hits on you by taking enemy attacks and cause more cold damage on the enemy as well.
So think of it this way - at 10th level (5Warlock/5Rogue) I can cast AOA and get 15 more hps and do 15 cold to someone that hits me in melee (maybe 30 if it lasts two hits, but it is more likely to do 0 than 30). Or I can cast summon shadowspawn, an ally that can take 35 damage and attack every single turn for 9.5 cold damage, regardless of if anyone hits me, that gets reactions on top of that (as well as a fear ability). In addition I can use a bonus action to give myself 11 temp hps. Summon Shadowspawn is one option that is easy to directly compare because it does cold damage just like AOA and lasts an hour, but other spells like Summon Fey are even more effective with this combo, if not a direct comparison.
The other thing you get from Hexblade is martial weapons which in terms of weapons that matter is whip, scimitar and heavy crossbow and if you want to use one of these you can do it with improved pact weapon anyway.
That forces you to stay with pact of the blade though, and is eating another of your eldritch invocations.
Sure, but if you are not going POB, that is even less reason to go Hexblade. Unless you have some burning reason that you need to use a whip, scimitar or Heavy crossbow then Hexblade does not do anything for you.
I'd argue that you don't need pact of the blade on a hexblade, and you're often better going for chain or tome; personally I go with tome for the added utility of a load of extra cantrips, and if you're going to take a pact invocation then it's hard to beat access to rituals on a warlock, though with such high stats you can spare an ability score to get ritual caster as a feat, but there are other feats you may want more. Chain is also good for a familiar, simply being able to cast through it lets you turn touch spells into ranged threats.
But again you can do this on any warlock and with your Rogue multiclass can also still use the vast majoirty of weapons that matter.
Hexblade lets you fight with a shortsword or rapier without eating up any invocations or forcing you to take a specific pact.
So does Rogue, and with a 20 Dexterity you do it as well as a Hexblade.
I'm not missing it, I even mentioned it; if the enemy can get to you then that only guarantees you can move beyond its reach next turn (start right next to it).
I'm also specifically recommending the use of booming blade to either discourage the enemy's movement, or to punish them for it. While it's more high risk, you'll do more damage overall with booming blade than with two weapon attacks, and it suits the Rogue style of fewer, deadlier attacks anyway, especially if you can get a critical hit (which is more likely with Hexblade's Curse, especially if you can get advantage somehow).
So this is what bothers me about this logic - you are trying to "discourage" or "punish" the enemy for moving while frightened flat PREVENTS that movement, while also doing the same booming blade discourage/punish effect IF he actually makes his save against being frightened. It does everything I can do as a Hexblade and more.
An Undead Warlock can use Booming Blade the same as a Hexblade!
If I take an UndeadWarlock/Rogue in form of dread and I use booming blade there are 3 possibilities:
1. miss. the enemy can move at will and would be able to even if I was a Hexblade
2. Hit and makes save. The enemy is discouraged from moving and punished if he does, same as if I was a Hexblade
3. Hit and enemy fails save - enemy CAN'T move closer to you and is discouraged/punished if he moves in another direction
There is no case where a Hexblade would do better controlling enemy movement.
Sadly that's not how shadow blade works (also can't you take it at 3rd?); shadow blade doesn't augment a weapon it summons a whole new weapon that deals 2d8 psychic damage on a hit (or more if up-cast), but it doesn't work with thirsting blade because unlike a true Extra Attack feature, thirsting blade only works with your pact weapon, which a shadow blade cannot be (it doesn't last long enough to turn it into one). Plus it requires a pact slot, and booming blade doesn't.
I said level 5 above, yes it is a whole new weapon. You now are holding a pact weapon you can attack twice with (thirsting blade) and a shadowblade in your other that does 3d8 using TWF (assuming your pact weapon is light) and if you are in dim light the shadowblade is also at advantage.
It is 3d8 psychic, not 2d8, for a level 5 Warlock (which is what I specified).
This is going to do far more damage than booming blade and while the firightened effect is not automatic you have 3 chances to hit and trigger it as well as 3 chances for sneak attack to land.
Booming Blade with a Rapier at 10th level is going to be 2d8+5 (14) plus another 2d8 (9) if he moves and you have one d20 chance to hit with your sneak attack.
2 attacks with Thirsting Blade and Improved Pact weapon 2d6+12 (19) and andother 3d8 (13.5) using TWF and you have 3d20s to land sneak attack, 4d20s if you are in dim light.
This is going to do far more damage than booming blade and while the firightened effect is not automatic you have 3 chances to hit and trigger it as well as 3 chances for sneak attack to land.
Booming Blade with a Rapier at 10th level is going to be 2d8+5 (14) plus another 2d8 (9) if he moves and you have one d20 chance to hit with your sneak attack.
2 attacks with Thirsting Blade and Improved Pact weapon 2d6+12 (19) and andother 3d8 (13.5) using TWF and you have 3d20s to land sneak attack, 4d20s if you are in dim light.
When are you actually planning to use shadow blade in this scenario? It takes a bonus action to activate form of dread, a bonus action to cast shadow blade, and a bonus action to attack with it as an off-hand weapon, so you can't even attack with it until the third round. Both only last for a minute so you're unlikely to be able to set these up in advance.
That means that the extra 13.5 damage is absent from the first two rounds at least, or one if you forego form of dread. Plus for the Hexblade, if using Hexblade's Curse in the first round, will also add their Charisma to damage (another +5 in the OP's case another +3 in the OP's case, or +4 in 1 level), so it's basically the same basic damage, optional damage potential from the first round, a better critical hit chance and a chance for some minor healing on a kill. While yes, it's tied up in a single attack roll that's just how things are for most Rogues (Arcane Tricksters in particular) it's the trade off for more damage, but it's not forcing you into a particular pact or costing you any eldritch invocations.
Again, they're both perfectly good options, but if the OP picked Hexblade for a reason, or doesn't want the forced theming of a "suddenly I'm a scary monster" then Hexblade is the more obvious choice IMO, and will do just as well.
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This is going to do far more damage than booming blade and while the firightened effect is not automatic you have 3 chances to hit and trigger it as well as 3 chances for sneak attack to land.
Booming Blade with a Rapier at 10th level is going to be 2d8+5 (14) plus another 2d8 (9) if he moves and you have one d20 chance to hit with your sneak attack.
2 attacks with Thirsting Blade and Improved Pact weapon 2d6+12 (19) and andother 3d8 (13.5) using TWF and you have 3d20s to land sneak attack, 4d20s if you are in dim light.
When are you actually planning to use shadow blade in this scenario? It takes a bonus action to activate form of dread, a bonus action to cast shadow blade, and a bonus action to attack with it as an off-hand weapon, so you can't even attack with it until the third round. Both only last for a minute so you're unlikely to be able to set these up in advance.
That means that the extra 13.5 damage is absent from the first two rounds at least, or one if you forego form of dread. Plus for the Hexblade, if using Hexblade's Curse in the first round, will also add their Charisma to damage (another +5 in the OP's case), so it's the same basic damage, optional damage potential from the first round, a better critical hit chance and a chance for some minor healing on a kill. While yes, it's tied up in a single attack roll that's just how things are for most Rogues (Arcane Tricksters in particular) it's the trade off for more damage, but it's not forcing you into a particular pact or costing you any eldritch invocations.
It is not really the same damage because of two things.
1. You only have 1 chance to hit with sneak attack using booming blade, while using thirsting blade gives you two chances. That means even though both do 19 base damage plus 10.5 sneak attack, doing it with 2 attacks means more average because you have 2 chances to land the 10.5.
2. Improved pact weapon gives you a +1 attack, meaning that you hit more. This is mathematically worth more damage than the extra crit range unless AC is low enough that you hit on a natural 2 or it is high enough that you miss on a natural 19.
But even if it was the same base damage on the first two rounds, it would be 19 damage with no other effect vs 19 damage with a save for frightened.
But even if it was the same base damage on the first two rounds, it would be 19 damage with no other effect vs 19 damage with a save for frightened.
No other effects besides increased critical chance and healing on a kill? You're not comparing the two if you cherry pick only the parts that support the outcome you want.
You're also ignoring that booming blade only gets better over time, whereas a plain weapon with thirsting blade plateaus when you get it. The secondary damage also isn't incidental enough to ignore; while yes, you might not hit to trigger it, or the monster may not move, if that monster needs to move to get you then you're either achieving the same result as frightened (no bonus damage, but the monster can't attack you at all) or you're dealing extra damage, in either case the secondary damage is reliably useful.
Also worth pointing out that the options you're pushing for undead are equally valid on the Hexblade, I just don't personally prefer them because high risk is more fun, and can deal more damage overall. A Hexblade with the same pact of the blade, improved pact weapon and thirsting blade would have the same +1 to hit and be dealing 2d6+18 thanks to Hexblade's Curse (as it's per attack, and actually I made a mistake earlier as it's proficiency not Charisma so it'd be +3, nearly +4 for the OP), so the Hexblade can have the same number of attacks and hit chance, but with an increased chance of landing critical hits and just more damage overall.
But we've wasted more than enough time on this thread on the subject. Hexblade is more offensively oriented, undead is more defensive, but there is very much no clear winner no matter how much you might insist otherwise as Hexblade does have defensive options as well (it's the only warlock with built in access to shield). The OP should pick what they want, if they're even still reading this, because I know I've lost interest. 😝
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
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I just starting new campaign and don't have much experience in multiclassing, etc. And just looking for information about optimisation in levelling for hexbuckler. But i wonder, how do you get such stats on 8 lvl with only one ASI? No hope, that you will answer but still)
Stats were rolled as opposed to point buy or standard array. STR, INT, and WIS are the same numbers I started with. DEX and CHA were 18 and 17 when I first started (got some insane luck there). CON started at an 11, but I got an Amulet of Health at level 6 that jumped the stat to 19. Playing a Glasya Tiefling increased my starting CHA by 2 and my DEX by 1, making them both 19. By level 4, my DEX and CHA were both maxed out after using the ASI to increase both stats by 1 to 20. So basically I only got those stats by being lucky and my DM at the time letting it slide. Hope this helps 👍🏻
Thank you so much! I just forget about artifacts) But i was thinking that you rolled 19 jn your 3d6 dices:D (joking, thank you anyway). Another quick question. How do you get XBE? It's because of custom lineage?
Get to level 3 rogoue, and build swashbuckler. Then dip 1 level in hexblade warlock to get booming blade and wrathful smite. Insanely, both of these can be used together along with your sneak attack for insane damage.
I'm trying to figure out the best way to level up my character to be as optimized as possible. He is currently a Glasya Tiefling 5 Rogue/3 Warlock and has a stat spread of 9/20/19/14/15/20. Other features are Crossbow Expert, Invocations are Agonizing Blast and Devil's Sight, and Boon is Pact of the Blade. We are currently transitioning between games since our last DM didn't work out very well and we are being allowed to change things before we officially start next week. Any help is appreciated ^.^
How much can you change?
If you can change subclasses and want to remain a swashbuckler, change to an undead warlock. This is really going to help with being a melee Rogue. The problem with swashbucklers is they don't take AOOs and can sneak attack lone enemies, but they also usually do not have enough movement to get far enough away to keep that unengaged enemy off of them. Form of dread will provide a fear effect to keep enemies from chasing you down and attacking you.
Then I would trade XBE for Fey Touched with hex. This lets you cast Hex once as a 1st level spell plus gives you a once a day misty step. I would also take my next two levels as a warlock and pick up thirsting blade and trade agonizing blast for improved pact weapon. For spells pick up Fear and Summon Fey. Fear is a freaking awesome spell especially with a Rogue that can dash as a bonus action and sneak attack without anyone threatening. Cast fear then just chase after the bad guys landing sneak attacks as reactions and actions and they get no save. Or cast summon Fey (Tricksey), then attack with form of dread-frighten-back off- Fey attacks-Fey casts charm as bonus. The combo of frightened and charmed is really debilitating.
If you can't change your subclass then still go to 5th level as a warlock and get thirsting blade and improved pact weapon. Then decide if you want to be ranged or melee primary. If you want melee prime pick up a rapier as pack weapon and hand crossbow as ranged. If you want to be ranged primary get a heavy crossbow as improved pact weapon and pick up short swords or scimitars as you melee weapons.
I'm not sure I'd recommend this change personally. While you can definitely make a good melee character using undead (it's a great sub-class) it's a very different theme and there are a lot of things you lose compared to Hexblade; medium armor proficiency and attacking with Charisma are both fantastic boosts (and work well together), as it means you're not as reliant on Dexterity and can take more Constitution instead. Hexblade's Curse is also really neat for a Rogue multiclass because of the increased critical chance IMO.
A Swashbuckler only needs to attack (not hit) a creature to effectively Disengage from it, which leaves your bonus action free to Dash instead, so you can move 60 feet every turn if you want to. Combine with booming blade and even in the case where you can't get full away from an enemy, if you hit them they'll at least be taking extra damage if they follow you. Worst case you're only really stuck in range of an enemy once every two turns (as if you start next to them, then you can move the full 60 feet away).
So IMO it's not a big deal, not enough that you need to change sub-class.
As for optimising the Hexblade/Swashbuckler combo, that's kind of difficult; it's good to get to level 5 Rogue as quickly as possible for Uncanny Dodge and to get a decent amount of sneak attack dice. Then I'd aim for Warlock 3 for a decent amount of spellcasting.
After that is tricky, and really depends how far you expect a campaign to go; if you're expecting to max out around level 10-12 I'd personally take the extra levels in Rogue for more sneak attack damage and Evasion (at Rogue 7) but it kind of depends on personal preference, as Warlock 5 means more spellcasting (and 3rd-level spells, which have some neat options depending upon what you want, also the option of thirsting blade for two attacks though it doesn't work with booming blade which is IMO better).
Multiclassing is always difficult because there's never really a perfect balance, and what you need depends a lot on the group and what you want from the character.
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He has a 20 dexterity so medium armor is a bad choice. Studded leather is AC17, Half plate is the same AC. The only thing medium armor would do is give him disadvantage on stealth and more weight to carry.
Attacking with Charisma is also irrelevant when dexterity is 20 and any weapon you can sneak attack with can use dexterity.
Hexblade curse is nice, but it is not as nice as an enemy saving against being frightened every round along with about 10 temp hps.
The other thing you get from Hexblade is martial weapons which in terms of weapons that matter is whip, scimitar and heavy crossbow and if you want to use one of these you can do it with improved pact weapon anyway.
Only if you don't use a bonus action to attack (and try to land sneak attack) or switch targets with hex or something else and only if you were close enough at the startof your that you can get far enough away, but that is not nearly automatic.
What you are missing is you have to move to attack the bad guy to start with and that takes movement away from that 60 number. If you start the turn 20 feat from an enemy you move up and attack then move back 40 feet. 40 feet might be enough for an enemy not to get to you and it might not be enough, especially if he has a 10' reach. If you give up on TWF, that is more or less the best you can normally do with a 30 move unless you started abnormally close.
Moreover if you do back away far enough that the enemy can't get to you, then next turn you need to dash to close 40 feet, attack, and move 20 feet away and almost any enemy can close that distance and attack you even after you used dash.
On the other hand if you frighten him you just need to move barely out of reach, so you can use your bonus for something else and stay close enough that it is easy to get in and attack next turn without using dash. If he makes his save, or you miss THEN you go ahead and use the dash to "get the heck out of dodge".
IME the problem with fancy footwork is unless someone else moves into a threatening position the enemy can usually (not always) get to the Rogue, which severely nerfs the feature. The frightened condition stops that cold (assuming he fails and can be frightened)
So this is why I think Undead is so much better mechanically. Going to level 5 gets you extra attack and improved pact weapon, which will outrun an extra d6 sneak attack by a lot (especially since it is another chance to land sneak attack). The frightened effect will make up for the loss in uncanny dodge since you will not be getting attacked as much and a lot of times you are attacked will be with disadvantage. So you have something that is more or less equal to uncanny dodge while doing more damage and having better spells.
Speaking of which level 5 gives you shadowblade which hits for 3d8 on top of your normal attacks with your pact weapon
Somehow I missed the stats, that's some pretty damned good early rolling! In that case Armor of Shadows is a perfectly good pick as that's a full 18 AC for free (other than the eldritch invocation choice it costs).
Eh, I'm mixed on frightened personally; while it's nice when it triggers, it's not guaranteed and only affects one enemy at a time, plus some enemies are resistant or fully immune to it. It also doesn't prevent something from attacking you at all.
As for the temporary hit-points, it's nice that they're free, but for a melee hexblade/rogue you want to be running armor of agathys anyway as it will be more temporary HP at higher levels, and if you're dealing damage up close it will hurt the enemy even more if they hit you. This is where Hexblade/Rogue can be great because thanks to Uncanny Dodge you can absorb a bit more damage while dealing more to the enemy; combo with hellish rebuke and you can seriously punish an enemy for that first hit, though it burns your pact slots quick.
That forces you to stay with pact of the blade though, and is eating another of your eldritch invocations.
I'd argue that you don't need pact of the blade on a hexblade, and you're often better going for chain or tome; personally I go with tome for the added utility of a load of extra cantrips, and if you're going to take a pact invocation then it's hard to beat access to rituals on a warlock, though with such high stats you can spare an ability score to get ritual caster as a feat, but there are other feats you may want more. Chain is also good for a familiar, simply being able to cast through it lets you turn touch spells into ranged threats.
Hexblade lets you fight with a shortsword or rapier without eating up any invocations or forcing you to take a specific pact.
I'm not missing it, I even mentioned it; if the enemy can get to you then that only guarantees you can move beyond its reach next turn (start right next to it).
I'm also specifically recommending the use of booming blade to either discourage the enemy's movement, or to punish them for it. While it's more high risk, you'll do more damage overall with booming blade than with two weapon attacks, and it suits the Rogue style of fewer, deadlier attacks anyway, especially if you can get a critical hit (which is more likely with Hexblade's Curse, especially if you can get advantage somehow).
Sadly that's not how shadow blade works (also can't you take it at 3rd?); shadow blade doesn't augment a weapon it summons a whole new weapon that deals 2d8 psychic damage on a hit (or more if up-cast), but it doesn't work with thirsting blade because unlike a true Extra Attack feature, thirsting blade only works with your pact weapon, which a shadow blade cannot be (it doesn't last long enough to turn it into one). Plus it requires a pact slot, and booming blade doesn't.
I'm not saying that I think Hexblade is superior, but I think in practice they're kind of the same overall, especially as a multiclass, and you should pick what fits the theme best; the OP already chose Hexblade for some reason, and it works very nicely with Rogue. Undead will work fine too, but it's in no way mandatory even for ruthless optimisation IMO.
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Frightened absolutley prevents someone from attacking you if they don't have a ranged attack. All you have to do is get out of reach and he can't move any closer to you because that is part of frightened. This is why it is a perfect combination with fancy footwork. You don't have to dash out of movement range, all you need to do is move out of reach and unless he has a ranged attack, he can't attack you because he can't move closer to you. If he does have a ranged attack it is with disadvantage.
You are right it is not garaunteed, but you still have cunning action and you know right after you attack whether you need to use it or not. Form of Dread is a perfect pairing with a swashbuckler due to the affect frightened has on movement..
I think AOA is not that great if you are avoiding melee attacks, because it only causes damage against enemies that hit you in melee. That said any Warlock can run armor of agathys and hellish rebuke, so you can do this with an undead warlock. I just don't think it is awesome on a multiclass swashbuckler because you won't have high level slots and when you hit Rogue 5 HR will conflict with uncanny dodge. Also you only have 2 spell slots, so AOA and HR is all of your casting. So even if you go this route you can still use form of dread (as a bonus action) once AOA drops or forget the temp hit points and just use it for the frightened.
Finally in terms of damage something like Hex, shadowblade or Spirit shroud is going to do more damage over the long haul I think and control spells are better than any of these. AOA is ok, but because you are splitting classes so you won't have a ton of temp hps (or a ton of cold damage). To make the comarison easy - at 5th level if you comapare a 15hp AOA to summon shadowspawn I think the latter will save more hits on you by taking enemy attacks and cause more cold damage on the enemy as well.
So think of it this way - at 10th level (5Warlock/5Rogue) I can cast AOA and get 15 more hps and do 15 cold to someone that hits me in melee (maybe 30 if it lasts two hits, but it is more likely to do 0 than 30). Or I can cast summon shadowspawn, an ally that can take 35 damage and attack every single turn for 9.5 cold damage, regardless of if anyone hits me, that gets reactions on top of that (as well as a fear ability). In addition I can use a bonus action to give myself 11 temp hps. Summon Shadowspawn is one option that is easy to directly compare because it does cold damage just like AOA and lasts an hour, but other spells like Summon Fey are even more effective with this combo, if not a direct comparison.
Sure, but if you are not going POB, that is even less reason to go Hexblade. Unless you have some burning reason that you need to use a whip, scimitar or Heavy crossbow then Hexblade does not do anything for you.
But again you can do this on any warlock and with your Rogue multiclass can also still use the vast majoirty of weapons that matter.
So does Rogue, and with a 20 Dexterity you do it as well as a Hexblade.
So this is what bothers me about this logic - you are trying to "discourage" or "punish" the enemy for moving while frightened flat PREVENTS that movement, while also doing the same booming blade discourage/punish effect IF he actually makes his save against being frightened. It does everything I can do as a Hexblade and more.
An Undead Warlock can use Booming Blade the same as a Hexblade!
If I take an UndeadWarlock/Rogue in form of dread and I use booming blade there are 3 possibilities:
1. miss. the enemy can move at will and would be able to even if I was a Hexblade
2. Hit and makes save. The enemy is discouraged from moving and punished if he does, same as if I was a Hexblade
3. Hit and enemy fails save - enemy CAN'T move closer to you and is discouraged/punished if he moves in another direction
There is no case where a Hexblade would do better controlling enemy movement.
I said level 5 above, yes it is a whole new weapon. You now are holding a pact weapon you can attack twice with (thirsting blade) and a shadowblade in your other that does 3d8 using TWF (assuming your pact weapon is light) and if you are in dim light the shadowblade is also at advantage.
It is 3d8 psychic, not 2d8, for a level 5 Warlock (which is what I specified).
This is going to do far more damage than booming blade and while the firightened effect is not automatic you have 3 chances to hit and trigger it as well as 3 chances for sneak attack to land.
Booming Blade with a Rapier at 10th level is going to be 2d8+5 (14) plus another 2d8 (9) if he moves and you have one d20 chance to hit with your sneak attack.
2 attacks with Thirsting Blade and Improved Pact weapon 2d6+12 (19) and andother 3d8 (13.5) using TWF and you have 3d20s to land sneak attack, 4d20s if you are in dim light.
When are you actually planning to use shadow blade in this scenario? It takes a bonus action to activate form of dread, a bonus action to cast shadow blade, and a bonus action to attack with it as an off-hand weapon, so you can't even attack with it until the third round. Both only last for a minute so you're unlikely to be able to set these up in advance.
That means that the extra 13.5 damage is absent from the first two rounds at least, or one if you forego form of dread. Plus for the Hexblade, if using Hexblade's Curse in the first round, will also add their Charisma to damage (
another +5 in the OP's caseanother +3 in the OP's case, or +4 in 1 level), so it's basically the same basic damage, optional damage potential from the first round, a better critical hit chance and a chance for some minor healing on a kill. While yes, it's tied up in a single attack roll that's just how things are for most Rogues (Arcane Tricksters in particular) it's the trade off for more damage, but it's not forcing you into a particular pact or costing you any eldritch invocations.Again, they're both perfectly good options, but if the OP picked Hexblade for a reason, or doesn't want the forced theming of a "suddenly I'm a scary monster" then Hexblade is the more obvious choice IMO, and will do just as well.
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It is not really the same damage because of two things.
1. You only have 1 chance to hit with sneak attack using booming blade, while using thirsting blade gives you two chances. That means even though both do 19 base damage plus 10.5 sneak attack, doing it with 2 attacks means more average because you have 2 chances to land the 10.5.
2. Improved pact weapon gives you a +1 attack, meaning that you hit more. This is mathematically worth more damage than the extra crit range unless AC is low enough that you hit on a natural 2 or it is high enough that you miss on a natural 19.
But even if it was the same base damage on the first two rounds, it would be 19 damage with no other effect vs 19 damage with a save for frightened.
No other effects besides increased critical chance and healing on a kill? You're not comparing the two if you cherry pick only the parts that support the outcome you want.
You're also ignoring that booming blade only gets better over time, whereas a plain weapon with thirsting blade plateaus when you get it. The secondary damage also isn't incidental enough to ignore; while yes, you might not hit to trigger it, or the monster may not move, if that monster needs to move to get you then you're either achieving the same result as frightened (no bonus damage, but the monster can't attack you at all) or you're dealing extra damage, in either case the secondary damage is reliably useful.
Also worth pointing out that the options you're pushing for undead are equally valid on the Hexblade, I just don't personally prefer them because high risk is more fun, and can deal more damage overall. A Hexblade with the same pact of the blade, improved pact weapon and thirsting blade would have the same +1 to hit and be dealing 2d6+18 thanks to Hexblade's Curse (as it's per attack, and actually I made a mistake earlier as it's proficiency not Charisma so it'd be +3, nearly +4 for the OP), so the Hexblade can have the same number of attacks and hit chance, but with an increased chance of landing critical hits and just more damage overall.
But we've wasted more than enough time on this thread on the subject. Hexblade is more offensively oriented, undead is more defensive, but there is very much no clear winner no matter how much you might insist otherwise as Hexblade does have defensive options as well (it's the only warlock with built in access to shield). The OP should pick what they want, if they're even still reading this, because I know I've lost interest. 😝
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I just starting new campaign and don't have much experience in multiclassing, etc. And just looking for information about optimisation in levelling for hexbuckler. But i wonder, how do you get such stats on 8 lvl with only one ASI? No hope, that you will answer but still)
Stats were rolled as opposed to point buy or standard array. STR, INT, and WIS are the same numbers I started with. DEX and CHA were 18 and 17 when I first started (got some insane luck there). CON started at an 11, but I got an Amulet of Health at level 6 that jumped the stat to 19. Playing a Glasya Tiefling increased my starting CHA by 2 and my DEX by 1, making them both 19. By level 4, my DEX and CHA were both maxed out after using the ASI to increase both stats by 1 to 20. So basically I only got those stats by being lucky and my DM at the time letting it slide. Hope this helps 👍🏻
Thank you so much! I just forget about artifacts) But i was thinking that you rolled 19 jn your 3d6 dices:D (joking, thank you anyway). Another quick question. How do you get XBE? It's because of custom lineage?
Free feat allowed by the DM when we first started playing
Get to level 3 rogoue, and build swashbuckler. Then dip 1 level in hexblade warlock to get booming blade and wrathful smite. Insanely, both of these can be used together along with your sneak attack for insane damage.