I am currently working on creating a character that I think fits best as a rogue instead of a fighter due to the skills, starting proficiencies/expertise. My concept though is that this particular type of rogue prefers to use bows and make many rapid surprising attacks instead of one big surprising attack.
I am thinking of the following class feature: (not yet named) When you make a sneak attack, you can instead use your cunning action to make a number of sneak attacks up to as many sneak attack dice as you have. When you do this, you decide before the attack rolls how many sneak attack dice to use on each target. After using this feature, you must finish a short or long rest before it can be used again.
An example would be instead of doing 6d6 damage to one target, the rogue could do 2d6 damage to 3 targets or even 4d6 to one target and 2d6 to another target. I figure they aren't all expecting to be the target of his attacks and therefore take extra damage from hits that land. Please share your thoughts and if you disagree with the concept could you please offer any suggestions? Thanks!
Are you intending to make a ranged attack roll against each of your selected targets also? What happens if the attack misses, do you lose the use of that die? If you don't make a roll, can you target a low AC creature and then get a free strike against nearby high AC ones?
The idea is not bad per-se, but I have to add a couple of questions to the ones JoshBrodieNZ already asked, as there are quite some things to take into consideration:
Would each of these Sneak Attacks deal weapon damage+xSA dice damage? Would you allow this to be used indefinitely or have a limited amount of uses (like once per short/long rest, similar to Action Surge)? At higher levels (actually as soon as 9th level) this seems like it would make pretty much any other non-magical class pretty useless, since it would give the chance to perform 5 attacks per round, with a baseline damage output of 1d6 (that is considering these attacks only do SA damage, not weapon damage as well). That sounds quite unbalancing to me if it can be done indefinitely.
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Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
Are you intending to make a ranged attack roll against each of your selected targets also? What happens if the attack misses, do you lose the use of that die? If you don't make a roll, can you target a low AC creature and then get a free strike against nearby high AC ones?
I am intending that each attack would have a roll. My aim is that is part of the trade-off. You can target many creatures but might miss, thus losing your sneak attack damage.
Would each of these Sneak Attacks deal weapon damage+xSA dice damage? Would you allow this to be used indefinitely or have a limited amount of uses (like once per short/long rest, similar to Action Surge)? At higher levels (actually as soon as 9th level) this seems like it would make pretty much any other non-magical class pretty useless, since it would give the chance to perform 5 attacks per round, with a baseline damage output of 1d6 (that is considering these attacks only do SA damage, not weapon damage as well). That sounds quite unbalancing to me if it can be done indefinitely.
The hardest part for me to decide right now is how those extra attacks would be structured. I'm currently leaning toward it being a full attack (Weapon Damage + Modifier + Sneak Attack dice).
Thanks for bringing up the indefinite/limited use. I was thinking about it more and I think it would be short/long rest like Action Surge. My most recent addition to this idea is that at 17th level this could be used with all sneak attack dice instead of 1/2...but I haven't fleshed that idea out much yet.
Would each of these Sneak Attacks deal weapon damage+xSA dice damage? Would you allow this to be used indefinitely or have a limited amount of uses (like once per short/long rest, similar to Action Surge)? At higher levels (actually as soon as 9th level) this seems like it would make pretty much any other non-magical class pretty useless, since it would give the chance to perform 5 attacks per round, with a baseline damage output of 1d6 (that is considering these attacks only do SA damage, not weapon damage as well). That sounds quite unbalancing to me if it can be done indefinitely.
The hardest part for me to decide right now is how those extra attacks would be structured. I'm currently leaning toward it being a full attack (Weapon Damage + Modifier + Sneak Attack dice).
Thanks for bringing up the indefinite/limited use. I was thinking about it more and I think it would be short/long rest like Action Surge. My most recent addition to this idea is that at 17th level this could be used with all sneak attack dice instead of 1/2...but I haven't fleshed that idea out much yet.
Limiting it to once per short/long rest is already a good "deterrent" to this being unbalancing. With this, the damage output becomes less of an issue, but the main problem as to the number of attacks that can be performed with this still would be. Your idea of allowing only 1/2 SA dice (and therefore half the number of possible attacks, I gather) makes it somewhat slow and not really appealing at lower levels, but at higher levels (16th) it effectively allows for 4 potential attacks to be performed, and after that, the very next level, one could perform 9 attacks in one turn, something that no other class is able to achieve, short of a level 20 dual wielding Fighter, but that's at the "end" of their progression. On the other hand, limiting it all the way to level 20 to just 1/2 SA dice would keep on making it feel like a half-feature, and quite situational.
Another question that comes to mind is: would these attacks need to be targeting a different creature for each? Would it be possible to use this feature and still concentrate all attacks on one target? Should that be the case, then we have another damage output problem, as even at 1/2 SA dice (considering all of them hit) the addition of weapon damage+modifiers to all of them can still outdamage a single attack with all SA dice (considering, for example, a Rapier and a DEX of 18, we would be looking at 1d8+4+1d6 per attack, technically trading each SA 1d6 you could not use for a 1d8+4).
The more I think about it, the more this keeps being an interesting concept but difficult to implement in a balanced way. My out-of-the-blue suggestion of the day would be to maybe think of making a, homebrew subclass revolving around the concept of multiple SA. Something that maybe would give the Rogue the Extra Attack they have been so far unjustly denied (I am a bit partial to the Rogue class), and another feature (maybe even the level 3 one, just to get this going from the get-go) that would allow once per short/long rest to use your Bonus Action and apply SA damage to all attacks made in the turn if you have advantage on them, dividing the amount of SA dice as you see fit (so, i.e., at level 5, considering dual wielding and advantage on both attacks, with this feature one could have the first attack using 2d6 and one using 1d6) making this a pretty nice tactical choice and tying it to the proposed Extra attack allowing up to 3 attacks getting SA damage once the feature is activated. I know this is not exactly what you wanted, but thinking a bit out of the box, this could also tie-in well with a 2 level dip into Fighter, allowing up to 6 attacks benefit from this.
In any case, if I can suggest a little rewording, the mention of using Cunning Action seems redundant. It would be more clear if you just say "you can use your Bonus Action to..."
Hope the above can be of any kind of help :)
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Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
This is the current iteration of my subclass which is a rapid-fire, bow focused rogue.
**I have not tested potential damage for anything yet**
Bowman's Barrage:
At 3rd level, When you use a bow to make the attack action on your turn, you can make a number of attacks equal to half of your sneak attack dice rounded down (minimum of 2). Make a separate roll for each attack. Only the first attack on a target receives the damage modifier.
Once per short rest, when you make a sneak attack, you can instead make a number of attacks equal to the number sneak attack dice, dividing the sneak attack dice between each attack as you see fit. Only the first attack on a target receives the damage modifier.
I still have some thoughts about possibly sacrificing sneak attack dice to make the attacks, or only being able to target creatures that have the sneak attack conditions, but I haven't made a lot of progress there.
This is the current iteration of my subclass which is a rapid-fire, bow focused rogue.
**I have not tested potential damage for anything yet**
Bowman's Barrage:
At 3rd level, When you use a bow to make the attack action on your turn, you can make a number of attacks equal to half of your sneak attack dice rounded down (minimum of 2). Make a separate roll for each attack. Only the first attack on a target receives the damage modifier.
Once per short rest, when you make a sneak attack, you can instead make a number of attacks equal to the number sneak attack dice, dividing the sneak attack dice between each attack as you see fit. Only the first attack on a target receives the damage modifier.
I still have some thoughts about possibly sacrificing sneak attack dice to make the attacks, or only being able to target creatures that have the sneak attack conditions, but I haven't made a lot of progress there.
You could maybe allow to perform attacks=dex modifier, one per creature, once per short rest, and you can divide the SA dice between all targets against which you have Advantage.
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Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
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I am currently working on creating a character that I think fits best as a rogue instead of a fighter due to the skills, starting proficiencies/expertise. My concept though is that this particular type of rogue prefers to use bows and make many rapid surprising attacks instead of one big surprising attack.
I am thinking of the following class feature: (not yet named) When you make a sneak attack, you can instead use your cunning action to make a number of sneak attacks up to as many sneak attack dice as you have. When you do this, you decide before the attack rolls how many sneak attack dice to use on each target. After using this feature, you must finish a short or long rest before it can be used again.
An example would be instead of doing 6d6 damage to one target, the rogue could do 2d6 damage to 3 targets or even 4d6 to one target and 2d6 to another target. I figure they aren't all expecting to be the target of his attacks and therefore take extra damage from hits that land. Please share your thoughts and if you disagree with the concept could you please offer any suggestions? Thanks!
Are you intending to make a ranged attack roll against each of your selected targets also? What happens if the attack misses, do you lose the use of that die? If you don't make a roll, can you target a low AC creature and then get a free strike against nearby high AC ones?
The idea is not bad per-se, but I have to add a couple of questions to the ones JoshBrodieNZ already asked, as there are quite some things to take into consideration:
Would each of these Sneak Attacks deal weapon damage+xSA dice damage?
Would you allow this to be used indefinitely or have a limited amount of uses (like once per short/long rest, similar to Action Surge)?
At higher levels (actually as soon as 9th level) this seems like it would make pretty much any other non-magical class pretty useless, since it would give the chance to perform 5 attacks per round, with a baseline damage output of 1d6 (that is considering these attacks only do SA damage, not weapon damage as well). That sounds quite unbalancing to me if it can be done indefinitely.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
With this, the damage output becomes less of an issue, but the main problem as to the number of attacks that can be performed with this still would be. Your idea of allowing only 1/2 SA dice (and therefore half the number of possible attacks, I gather) makes it somewhat slow and not really appealing at lower levels, but at higher levels (16th) it effectively allows for 4 potential attacks to be performed, and after that, the very next level, one could perform 9 attacks in one turn, something that no other class is able to achieve, short of a level 20 dual wielding Fighter, but that's at the "end" of their progression.
On the other hand, limiting it all the way to level 20 to just 1/2 SA dice would keep on making it feel like a half-feature, and quite situational.
Should that be the case, then we have another damage output problem, as even at 1/2 SA dice (considering all of them hit) the addition of weapon damage+modifiers to all of them can still outdamage a single attack with all SA dice (considering, for example, a Rapier and a DEX of 18, we would be looking at 1d8+4+1d6 per attack, technically trading each SA 1d6 you could not use for a 1d8+4).
My out-of-the-blue suggestion of the day would be to maybe think of making a, homebrew subclass revolving around the concept of multiple SA. Something that maybe would give the Rogue the Extra Attack they have been so far unjustly denied (I am a bit partial to the Rogue class), and another feature (maybe even the level 3 one, just to get this going from the get-go) that would allow once per short/long rest to use your Bonus Action and apply SA damage to all attacks made in the turn if you have advantage on them, dividing the amount of SA dice as you see fit (so, i.e., at level 5, considering dual wielding and advantage on both attacks, with this feature one could have the first attack using 2d6 and one using 1d6) making this a pretty nice tactical choice and tying it to the proposed Extra attack allowing up to 3 attacks getting SA damage once the feature is activated.
I know this is not exactly what you wanted, but thinking a bit out of the box, this could also tie-in well with a 2 level dip into Fighter, allowing up to 6 attacks benefit from this.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
This is the current iteration of my subclass which is a rapid-fire, bow focused rogue.
**I have not tested potential damage for anything yet**
Bowman's Barrage:
At 3rd level, When you use a bow to make the attack action on your turn, you can make a number of attacks equal to half of your sneak attack dice rounded down (minimum of 2). Make a separate roll for each attack. Only the first attack on a target receives the damage modifier.
Once per short rest, when you make a sneak attack, you can instead make a number of attacks equal to the number sneak attack dice, dividing the sneak attack dice between each attack as you see fit. Only the first attack on a target receives the damage modifier.
I still have some thoughts about possibly sacrificing sneak attack dice to make the attacks, or only being able to target creatures that have the sneak attack conditions, but I haven't made a lot of progress there.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games