I think Cyclops would be more apt to get a Sneak Attack with his laser than a DnD character would with a spell. He just has to push a button.
To quote Sorce at the beginning of this thread: "However, a DM may choose to allow it, especially considering the part where it states "you know how to strike subtly and exploit a foe's distraction" - if I know how to strike subtly with a crossbow, I should also be able to do so with a spell. "
I would like to point out that firing a crossbow is pointing an object at something and pulling a trigger - the most that will be given away in this attack is a quiet "twang" followed by a missile that moves too fast to really see launching at the target. A rogue moves and attacks quickly and silently - with finesse, you might say - so Sneak Attacking with a finesse/light weapon makes sense as well.
Virtually any attack cantrip has Verbal and Somatic components; before launching the spell (presumably Fire Bolt, their most damaging cantrip,) the Arcane trickster has to do complex hand movements and intone some arcane langauge - or perhaps just call out "Fire Bolt!" depending on how you RP these things - and then launch a blazing magical sphere of light, which is far from subtle. Also, unless you take it full in the face (which I would consider a Critical Hit) a Fire Bolt (or other spell) is going to have pretty much the same impact no matter where it hits someone, as it's causing surface burns and likely not opening wounds to arteries, nerves or internal organs. Weapons, however, can do that.
Maybe - maybe - if the Arcane Trickster also sunk some levels into Sorcerer to get the Subtle Spell Metamagic, I might allow them to use Sneak Attack when they cast a Subtle attack cantrip, but even then I'd be iffy about it because of my previous point that no matter where you hit them - except maybe the face/groin - you're doing pretty much a consistent damage, not hitting vital points like you can with a weapon which is what I personally assume Sneak Attack damage to be.
Level 2 spell Shadow Blade. I think that the spell creates a finesse light weapon. This is the only spell I can think of that would let AT to do sneak attack with spell.
Sneak attack only works with ranged weapon attacks and melee weapon attacks from fineness weapons. besides you can't add your dex bonus to firebolts and they are loud (they have a verbal component) and you can't get a damage bonus from +1 weapons and ammo! on that note, sneak attack DOES work with booming blade and green flame blade because while they are spells they require a you to make a melee weapon attack witch qualifies it for sneak attack (confirmed by jeremy crawford in this post https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/11/06/greenflame-blade-and-sneak-attack/) FURTHERMORE there is a level 2 illusion spell called shadow blade, it is a bonus action spell that lets the user summon a powerful weapon for 1 minute with concentration, the weapon is 2d8 (using a level 2 spell slot, yes it up casts and get stronger) force damage and has the light, finesse and thrown (20/60) ON TOP of all that you also get free advantage when attacking with it in dim light or darker AND it counts as a melee weapon so you can use booming blade and green flame blade. so with this at level 7 (when you get your level 2 spell slots and can take this spell) you can do 2d8+dex from the weapon, a extra 1d8 fire/thunder from green flame blade/booming blade and then your 4d6 from sneak attack! (sadly you can do the green flame/booming from a thrown melee weapon as it has a range of 5 feet but HEY you can to disengage as a bonus action, that is unless you picked up the mobile feat)
RAW, you can't get Sneak Attack damage from a spell or cantrip. A ranged or melee weapon attack does get you SA. You guys are all talking philosophy when it comes to spells and essence of spells as weapons, but in D&D, they aren't counted as weapons for the purpose of clarifying things like this. If you are playing AL, then you couldn't get SA with a spell.
Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade, however, are exceptions, because part of the spell is making a melee weapon attack.
RAW, you can't get Sneak Attack damage from a spell or cantrip. A ranged or melee weapon attack does get you SA. You guys are all talking philosophy when it comes to spells and essence of spells as weapons, but in D&D, they aren't counted as weapons for the purpose of clarifying things like this. If you are playing AL, then you couldn't get SA with a spell.
Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade, however, are exceptions, because part of the spell is making a melee weapon attack.
Most spells aren't weapons, shadow blade is an exception. The spell doesn't really do any damage on its own, it just creates a weapon. Contrast with flame blade which lets you make a spell attack with something that is aesthetically a weapon, but doesn't count as one mechanically.
I think per RAW this makes your arrows count as magic weapons , adds a 1d6 and would allow Sneak Attack to be applied as well (assuming requirements are met).
Recently started looking at playing a sorcerer multi-class to make use of double casting cantrips, and this thread perfectly covered one of the questions I had with regards to multi-classing as assassin.
Still happy with ranged spell attacks getting the auto crit, just little sad about not getting the sneak bonus. But, at least you can still multi-class into warlock for eldritch blast modifiers. And pick up action surge..
Three castings of e-blast, or two with a chaos bolt, as a surprise attack is probably fine.
There is a simple way to allow this without fear of breaking the game. Inform the rogue that the first attack roll must hit in order to qualify for sneak attack damage when using a cantrip.
1st lv. And higher spells almost all require verbal and somatic components. It is assumed you reveal your position when casting(Though I have allowed S.O.H. checks in certain circumstances to avoid this).
Sorcerer meta magic could get around this, however it requires you to spend resources. So the trade off would scale nicely between scorcery points and sneak damage on ranged attack spells.
Yes, shadowblade and the blade cantrips work in conjunction. You can do both on the same turn because Shadowblade is a bonus action leveled spell and booming blade/green flame blade are action cantrips.
Shadowblade creates a light/finesse weapon that you are proficient with that has a 20/60 range. It is not a spell attack like the druid spell Flame Blade which states that you make a melee spell attack.
Sneak attack states you need to use a finesse weapon or a ranged weapon for the attack. The weapon created from Shadowblade meets these requirements as written in the spell.
Furthermore, because it is a finesse weapon you can use your DEX for the attack roll and add it to the damage modifier.
Booming blade and green flame blade state you make a weapon attack as part of the spell, so you roll with your STR or DEX (whichever you prefer) so a 2nd level shadowblade = 2D8 + DEX + 1D8 booming blade + xD6 sneak attack damage.
Also of note, the weapon created by Shadowblade gives you advantage if you're in dim light or darkness.
It's not so much about the weapon you're using, but lining up your shot while being undetected. I'd allow it but it would have to be a spell that required a roll for you to hit and it wouldn't be allowed to contain verbal components that would give you away (unless maybe you did those first then held the spell). I don't really see why it can only be a finesse weapon either. Do what makes sense cause they're not really rules they're more like guidelines.
Arcane Tricksters are actually in great shape for sneak attacks, as they can obtain advantage a few different ways. Outside of the usual hide + attack option, they can summon shadow blades (advantage in darkness/dim light), and later on even use their invisible mage hand as a BA to obtain advantage. This is in addition to something like a hidden Hold Person, allowing for some pretty good auto-crits.
With any spell? Definitely. Even if you rules only with a spell that allowed attacks. Because most spells are set up to do things besides damage, and have weak damage if they do better things. For example the spell Steel Wind Strike lets you do 5 attacks. If you qualify for sneak attack, you are now practically guaranteed to hit at least once. And then there is the Spell Storm Sphere, where on each of your turns you get a Bonus Attack with Advantage. One spell gives you an extra attack with Advantage, so you always get sneak attack.
Right now, the spells: Booming Blade, Greenflame Blade and Shadow Blade, are three legal spells that let you sneak attack with (because they either add damage to a weapon and let you attack with it as part of the spell, or they create a legal sneak attack-able weapon in the case of Shadow Blade).
In my opinion, those specific spells are good enough. Learn them and use them to sneak attack.
I think Cyclops would be more apt to get a Sneak Attack with his laser than a DnD character would with a spell. He just has to push a button.
To quote Sorce at the beginning of this thread: "However, a DM may choose to allow it, especially considering the part where it states "you know how to strike subtly and exploit a foe's distraction" - if I know how to strike subtly with a crossbow, I should also be able to do so with a spell. "
I would like to point out that firing a crossbow is pointing an object at something and pulling a trigger - the most that will be given away in this attack is a quiet "twang" followed by a missile that moves too fast to really see launching at the target. A rogue moves and attacks quickly and silently - with finesse, you might say - so Sneak Attacking with a finesse/light weapon makes sense as well.
Virtually any attack cantrip has Verbal and Somatic components; before launching the spell (presumably Fire Bolt, their most damaging cantrip,) the Arcane trickster has to do complex hand movements and intone some arcane langauge - or perhaps just call out "Fire Bolt!" depending on how you RP these things - and then launch a blazing magical sphere of light, which is far from subtle. Also, unless you take it full in the face (which I would consider a Critical Hit) a Fire Bolt (or other spell) is going to have pretty much the same impact no matter where it hits someone, as it's causing surface burns and likely not opening wounds to arteries, nerves or internal organs. Weapons, however, can do that.
Maybe - maybe - if the Arcane Trickster also sunk some levels into Sorcerer to get the Subtle Spell Metamagic, I might allow them to use Sneak Attack when they cast a Subtle attack cantrip, but even then I'd be iffy about it because of my previous point that no matter where you hit them - except maybe the face/groin - you're doing pretty much a consistent damage, not hitting vital points like you can with a weapon which is what I personally assume Sneak Attack damage to be.
Level 2 spell Shadow Blade. I think that the spell creates a finesse light weapon. This is the only spell I can think of that would let AT to do sneak attack with spell.
That's true but it is not an attack spell which is what we're debating.
Can you use booming blade/green flame blade together with shadow blade?
Attack: [roll]3d20dl2+6[/roll] Damage: [roll](if([roll:-1:critical], =0, 1d8, 2{1d8}.expand()))+4[/roll] Sneakattack: [roll](if([roll:-2:critical], =0, 2d6, 2{2d6}.expand()))[/roll]I don't see any reason you couldn't.
Sneak attack only works with ranged weapon attacks and melee weapon attacks from fineness weapons.
besides you can't add your dex bonus to firebolts and they are loud (they have a verbal component) and you can't get a damage bonus from +1 weapons and ammo!
on that note, sneak attack DOES work with booming blade and green flame blade because while they are spells they require a you to make a melee weapon attack witch qualifies it for sneak attack (confirmed by jeremy crawford in this post https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/11/06/greenflame-blade-and-sneak-attack/)
FURTHERMORE there is a level 2 illusion spell called shadow blade, it is a bonus action spell that lets the user summon a powerful weapon for 1 minute with concentration, the weapon is 2d8 (using a level 2 spell slot, yes it up casts and get stronger) force damage and has the light, finesse and thrown (20/60) ON TOP of all that you also get free advantage when attacking with it in dim light or darker AND it counts as a melee weapon so you can use booming blade and green flame blade. so with this at level 7 (when you get your level 2 spell slots and can take this spell) you can do 2d8+dex from the weapon, a extra 1d8 fire/thunder from green flame blade/booming blade and then your 4d6 from sneak attack! (sadly you can do the green flame/booming from a thrown melee weapon as it has a range of 5 feet but HEY you can to disengage as a bonus action, that is unless you picked up the mobile feat)
Thanks for the recap.
RAW, you can't get Sneak Attack damage from a spell or cantrip. A ranged or melee weapon attack does get you SA. You guys are all talking philosophy when it comes to spells and essence of spells as weapons, but in D&D, they aren't counted as weapons for the purpose of clarifying things like this. If you are playing AL, then you couldn't get SA with a spell.
Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade, however, are exceptions, because part of the spell is making a melee weapon attack.
D&D is a game for nerds... so I guess I'm one :p
Most spells aren't weapons, shadow blade is an exception. The spell doesn't really do any damage on its own, it just creates a weapon. Contrast with flame blade which lets you make a spell attack with something that is aesthetically a weapon, but doesn't count as one mechanically.
Are there any other spells that are like Shadowblade which creates a weapon that is eligible for sneak attack bonuses?
No but if you are looking for Ranged you can try to get yourself some spell scrolls or one of partys core casters to grab this spell for you:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/flame-arrows
I think per RAW this makes your arrows count as magic weapons , adds a 1d6 and would allow Sneak Attack to be applied as well (assuming requirements are met).
Recently started looking at playing a sorcerer multi-class to make use of double casting cantrips,
and this thread perfectly covered one of the questions I had with regards to multi-classing as assassin.
Still happy with ranged spell attacks getting the auto crit, just little sad about not getting the sneak bonus.
But, at least you can still multi-class into warlock for eldritch blast modifiers.
And pick up action surge..
Three castings of e-blast, or two with a chaos bolt, as a surprise attack is probably fine.
Shadow Blade stipulates that the blade is a light finesse weapon as well, so it would count there too.
There is a simple way to allow this without fear of breaking the game. Inform the rogue that the first attack roll must hit in order to qualify for sneak attack damage when using a cantrip.
1st lv. And higher spells almost all require verbal and somatic components. It is assumed you reveal your position when casting(Though I have allowed S.O.H. checks in certain circumstances to avoid this).
Sorcerer meta magic could get around this, however it requires you to spend resources. So the trade off would scale nicely between scorcery points and sneak damage on ranged attack spells.
Yes, shadowblade and the blade cantrips work in conjunction. You can do both on the same turn because Shadowblade is a bonus action leveled spell and booming blade/green flame blade are action cantrips.
Shadowblade creates a light/finesse weapon that you are proficient with that has a 20/60 range. It is not a spell attack like the druid spell Flame Blade which states that you make a melee spell attack.
Sneak attack states you need to use a finesse weapon or a ranged weapon for the attack. The weapon created from Shadowblade meets these requirements as written in the spell.
Furthermore, because it is a finesse weapon you can use your DEX for the attack roll and add it to the damage modifier.
Booming blade and green flame blade state you make a weapon attack as part of the spell, so you roll with your STR or DEX (whichever you prefer) so a 2nd level shadowblade = 2D8 + DEX + 1D8 booming blade + xD6 sneak attack damage.
Also of note, the weapon created by Shadowblade gives you advantage if you're in dim light or darkness.
It's not so much about the weapon you're using, but lining up your shot while being undetected. I'd allow it but it would have to be a spell that required a roll for you to hit and it wouldn't be allowed to contain verbal components that would give you away (unless maybe you did those first then held the spell). I don't really see why it can only be a finesse weapon either. Do what makes sense cause they're not really rules they're more like guidelines.
Arcane Tricksters are actually in great shape for sneak attacks, as they can obtain advantage a few different ways. Outside of the usual hide + attack option, they can summon shadow blades (advantage in darkness/dim light), and later on even use their invisible mage hand as a BA to obtain advantage. This is in addition to something like a hidden Hold Person, allowing for some pretty good auto-crits.
They're in pretty good shape IMO.
Specific spells allow it. Most do not. The ones I have used are:
No.
Not RAW or common sense.
With any spell? Definitely. Even if you rules only with a spell that allowed attacks. Because most spells are set up to do things besides damage, and have weak damage if they do better things. For example the spell Steel Wind Strike lets you do 5 attacks. If you qualify for sneak attack, you are now practically guaranteed to hit at least once. And then there is the Spell Storm Sphere, where on each of your turns you get a Bonus Attack with Advantage. One spell gives you an extra attack with Advantage, so you always get sneak attack.
Right now, the spells: Booming Blade, Greenflame Blade and Shadow Blade, are three legal spells that let you sneak attack with (because they either add damage to a weapon and let you attack with it as part of the spell, or they create a legal sneak attack-able weapon in the case of Shadow Blade).
In my opinion, those specific spells are good enough. Learn them and use them to sneak attack.