WHAT IS A SPELL? A spell is a discrete magical effect, a single shaping of the magical energies that suffuse the multiverse into a specific, limited expression. In casting a spell, a character carefully plucks at the invisible strands of raw magic suffusing the world, pins them in place in a particular pattern, sets them vibrating in a specific way, and then releases them to unleash the desired effect-in most cases, all in the span of seconds. Spells can be versatile tools,weapons, or protective wards. They can deal damage or undo it, impose or remove conditions (see appendix A), drain life energy away, and restore life to the dead. Uncounted thousands of spells have been created over the course of the multiverse's history, and many of them are long forgotten. Some might yet lie recorded in crumbling spellbooks hidden in ancient ruins or trapped in the minds of dead gods. Or they might someday be reinvented by a character who has amassed enough power and wisdom to do so.
So RAW, spells are weapons, And if it is a ranged spell, meets the requirements for sneak attack
WHAT IS A SPELL? A spell is a discrete magical effect, a single shaping of the magical energies that suffuse the multiverse into a specific, limited expression. In casting a spell, a character carefully plucks at the invisible strands of raw magic suffusing the world, pins them in place in a particular pattern, sets them vibrating in a specific way, and then releases them to unleash the desired effect-in most cases, all in the span of seconds. Spells can be versatile tools,weapons, or protective wards. They can deal damage or undo it, impose or remove conditions (see appendix A), drain life energy away, and restore life to the dead. Uncounted thousands of spells have been created over the course of the multiverse's history, and many of them are long forgotten. Some might yet lie recorded in crumbling spellbooks hidden in ancient ruins or trapped in the minds of dead gods. Or they might someday be reinvented by a character who has amassed enough power and wisdom to do so.
So RAW, spells are weapons, And if it is a ranged spell, meets the requirements for sneak attack
That is incorrect. If that were true then there would be no reason to draw any distinction between a Spell Attack and a Weapon Attack. They didn’t mean “Weapons,” as in the mechanical game term, they just meant weapons in the vernacular. (Similar to how there is a difference between “an attack” and the Attack action.) If you’re not sure, perhaps this will help:
Man I miss 3.5. They actually spelled it all out for using sneak attack with spells. It had to be a targeted attack spell and it had to within 30 feet while maintaining the requirements for the sneak attack. 5e fixed a lot of exploits at the cost of reduced versatility in character development.
But on the flipside, in 3.5 rules if the target was immune to crits it was immune to sneak attacks, so if you were fighting a golem or lich you were SOL.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Not sure if it makes that much of a difference in the argument, but ranged and finesse weapons, which by definition allow for Sneak Attack, use Dexterity as the Attack modifier, where as a Spell Attack cantrip such as Firebolt uses the caster's spell modifier, which in the case of an Arcane Trickster is an Intelligence modifier. For that reason it would lead me to believe a ranged spell attack would not be eligible for Sneak Attack. Cantrips such as Booming Blade use the weapon attack modifier, which for finesse weapons would be Dexterity, so Sneak Attack does apply.
Not sure if it makes that much of a difference in the argument, but ranged and finesse weapons, which by definition allow for Sneak Attack, use Dexterity as the Attack modifier, where as a Spell Attack cantrip such as Firebolt uses the caster's spell modifier, which in the case of an Arcane Trickster is an Intelligence modifier. For that reason it would lead me to believe a ranged spell attack would not be eligible for Sneak Attack. Cantrips such as Booming Blade use the weapon attack modifier, which for finesse weapons would be Dexterity, so Sneak Attack does apply.
Your argument is a little bit off because finesse weapons can use STR as the modifier so you can easily sneak attack with a STR based Rogue. Also if multiclassing is taken into account taking a 3 level Battle Smith Artificer dip with your Rogue and you can easily use INT for your attack modifier and still trigger Sneak Attack. Similar case with Hexblade Warlock and CHA.
The main component required to trigger Sneak Attack is a ranged or finesse weapon attack, what stat modifier you use is unimportant.
Hey, I know that sneak attack on a spell or cantrip would be very powerful and it is not possible for any spell/cantrip other than the bladetrips or shadow blade but if you are the DM you could give an arcane trickster a magic item that would allow them to add sneak attack to a cantrip. I gave one of my players a bow that instead of firing an arrow it could shoot a ranged cantrip like ray of frost or fire bolt. If they would have been able to add sneak attack to a normal bow attack than I allowed them to add it to their ranged cantrip (Attack Roll only) They were really happy with this and it was really good but not game breaking plus there aren’t many attack roll cantrips. (Only four spell attack rolls for wizard cantrips, not including bladetrips because those are weapon attacks rolls) Booming blade would deal an average 70 damage at 20th level with sneak attack if the target chooses to move if you hit with a +3 rapier with a 20 in DEX if I have done my math right. Fire bolt would deal on average of 50 damage with sneak attack at level 20 but you could be very far away from the target compared to the normal sneak attack with a short bow or rapier would be 41/42 if you attack with a +3 weapon. An attack made with a booming blade rapier plus sneak attack hit does 67% more damage than a normal hit with a +3 rapier with sneak attack, while a fire bolt plus sneak attack would deal 21% more damage that a +3 short bow with sneak attack.
Hey, I know that sneak attack on a spell or cantrip would be very powerful and it is not possible for any spell/cantrip other than the bladetrips or shadow blade but if you are the DM you could give an arcane trickster a magic item that would allow them to add sneak attack to a cantrip. I gave one of my players a bow that instead of firing an arrow it could shoot a ranged cantrip like ray of frost or fire bolt. If they would have been able to add sneak attack to a normal bow attack than I allowed them to add it to their ranged cantrip (Attack Roll only) They were really happy with this and it was really good but not game breaking plus there aren’t many attack roll cantrips. (Only four spell attack rolls for wizard cantrips, not including bladetrips because those are weapon attacks rolls) Booming blade would deal an average 70 damage at 20th level with sneak attack if the target chooses to move if you hit with a +3 rapier with a 20 in DEX if I have done my math right. Fire bolt would deal on average of 50 damage with sneak attack at level 20 but you could be very far away from the target compared to the normal sneak attack with a short bow or rapier would be 41/42 if you attack with a +3 weapon. An attack made with a booming blade rapier plus sneak attack hit does 67% more damage than a normal hit with a +3 rapier with sneak attack, while a fire bolt plus sneak attack would deal 21% more damage that a +3 short bow with sneak attack.
If I were DM, I would allow cantrips as sneak attacks but only if they’re cast as “1st level”. I played a storm sorcerer (12) /assassin (8). A shocking grasp for 1d8 + 4d6 sneak attack is less than the 1d6+4+4d6 I’d have done with a short sword. But letting me cast it at “12 level” for 3d8 + 4d6 is a bit much.
Fair enough regarding Finesse Weapons. I could amend my above argument in that Finesse Weapons allow you to use DEX as an attack roll modifier, where as ranged spell attacks never allow DEX as the modifier; this argument still holds true with your build example, seeing as even if the artificer can use INT as their attack modifier, the finesse weapon still *can* use DEX. As you say, it doesn't matter which stat modifier you use, just that DEX *can* be used, and no ranged spell attacks do.
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Player handbook page 201 states :
WHAT IS A SPELL?
A spell is a discrete magical effect, a single shaping of the magical energies that suffuse the multiverse into a specific, limited expression. In casting a spell, a character carefully plucks at the invisible strands of raw magic suffusing the world, pins them in place in a particular pattern, sets them vibrating in a specific way, and then releases them to unleash the desired effect-in most cases, all in the span of seconds.
Spells can be versatile tools, weapons, or protective wards. They can deal damage or undo it, impose or remove conditions (see appendix A), drain life energy away, and restore life to the dead.
Uncounted thousands of spells have been created over the course of the multiverse's history, and many of them are long forgotten. Some might yet lie recorded in crumbling spellbooks hidden in ancient ruins or trapped in the minds of dead gods. Or they might someday be reinvented by a character who has amassed enough power and wisdom to do so.
So RAW, spells are weapons, And if it is a ranged spell, meets the requirements for sneak attack
RAW spells can be weapons, such as with shadow blade, that doesn't mean that all spells are weapons, any more than all spells are protective wards.
That is incorrect. If that were true then there would be no reason to draw any distinction between a Spell Attack and a Weapon Attack. They didn’t mean “Weapons,” as in the mechanical game term, they just meant weapons in the vernacular. (Similar to how there is a difference between “an attack” and the Attack action.) If you’re not sure, perhaps this will help:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/equipment#Weapons
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Exactly this. Spells can be weapons (shadow blade, flame blade, booming blade, green flame blade). They are not ALWAYS weapons.
if a spell creates or uses a weapon then yes it can sneak but damn it’s rare
There is the spell Magic Stone that can apply Sneak Attack when hurled with a sling.
Man I miss 3.5. They actually spelled it all out for using sneak attack with spells. It had to be a targeted attack spell and it had to within 30 feet while maintaining the requirements for the sneak attack. 5e fixed a lot of exploits at the cost of reduced versatility in character development.
But on the flipside, in 3.5 rules if the target was immune to crits it was immune to sneak attacks, so if you were fighting a golem or lich you were SOL.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Not sure if it makes that much of a difference in the argument, but ranged and finesse weapons, which by definition allow for Sneak Attack, use Dexterity as the Attack modifier, where as a Spell Attack cantrip such as Firebolt uses the caster's spell modifier, which in the case of an Arcane Trickster is an Intelligence modifier. For that reason it would lead me to believe a ranged spell attack would not be eligible for Sneak Attack. Cantrips such as Booming Blade use the weapon attack modifier, which for finesse weapons would be Dexterity, so Sneak Attack does apply.
Your argument is a little bit off because finesse weapons can use STR as the modifier so you can easily sneak attack with a STR based Rogue. Also if multiclassing is taken into account taking a 3 level Battle Smith Artificer dip with your Rogue and you can easily use INT for your attack modifier and still trigger Sneak Attack. Similar case with Hexblade Warlock and CHA.
The main component required to trigger Sneak Attack is a ranged or finesse weapon attack, what stat modifier you use is unimportant.
Hey, I know that sneak attack on a spell or cantrip would be very powerful and it is not possible for any spell/cantrip other than the bladetrips or shadow blade but if you are the DM you could give an arcane trickster a magic item that would allow them to add sneak attack to a cantrip. I gave one of my players a bow that instead of firing an arrow it could shoot a ranged cantrip like ray of frost or fire bolt. If they would have been able to add sneak attack to a normal bow attack than I allowed them to add it to their ranged cantrip (Attack Roll only) They were really happy with this and it was really good but not game breaking plus there aren’t many attack roll cantrips. (Only four spell attack rolls for wizard cantrips, not including bladetrips because those are weapon attacks rolls) Booming blade would deal an average 70 damage at 20th level with sneak attack if the target chooses to move if you hit with a +3 rapier with a 20 in DEX if I have done my math right. Fire bolt would deal on average of 50 damage with sneak attack at level 20 but you could be very far away from the target compared to the normal sneak attack with a short bow or rapier would be 41/42 if you attack with a +3 weapon. An attack made with a booming blade rapier plus sneak attack hit does 67% more damage than a normal hit with a +3 rapier with sneak attack, while a fire bolt plus sneak attack would deal 21% more damage that a +3 short bow with sneak attack.
If I were DM, I would allow cantrips as sneak attacks but only if they’re cast as “1st level”. I played a storm sorcerer (12) /assassin (8). A shocking grasp for 1d8 + 4d6 sneak attack is less than the 1d6+4+4d6 I’d have done with a short sword. But letting me cast it at “12 level” for 3d8 + 4d6 is a bit much.
Fair enough regarding Finesse Weapons. I could amend my above argument in that Finesse Weapons allow you to use DEX as an attack roll modifier, where as ranged spell attacks never allow DEX as the modifier; this argument still holds true with your build example, seeing as even if the artificer can use INT as their attack modifier, the finesse weapon still *can* use DEX. As you say, it doesn't matter which stat modifier you use, just that DEX *can* be used, and no ranged spell attacks do.