Cross posting from the Homebrew forum, as it hasn't been getting much traction.
I'm a big fan of the idea of the Inquisitive Rogue, but the performance of the subclass is... suboptimal. It just doesn't seem to do what its' supposed to do, and other Rogues seems to be able to do most of it and have their cool feature on top of it. Which leads me to this -
I'd really appreciate any constructive feedback.
EDIT: Updated again based on feedback and some testing
Updated Inquisitive Rogue
As an archetypal Inquisitive, you excel at rooting out secrets and unraveling mysteries. You rely on your sharp eye for detail, but also on your finely honed ability to read the words and deeds of other creatures to determine their true intent. You excel at defeating creatures that hide among and prey upon ordinary folk, and your mastery of lore and your keen deductions make you well equipped to expose and end hidden evils.
Eye for Detail
Starting at 3rd level, you can use a bonus action instead of an action to make a Search or Study check.
Whenever you make an ability check using those skills, you can make it as an Intelligence check, even if it normally uses a different ability. What you might lack in charisma, you can make up for with your knowledge of how creatures think or behave.
When using a Finesse weapon, use your choice of Dexterity, Intelligence or Strength for the attack and damage rolls. You must use the same modifier for both rolls.
Insightful Fighting
Insightful Fighting
At 3rd level, you gain the ability to decipher an opponent’s tactics and develop a counter to them. As a Bonus Action, you can make an Intelligence (Investigation) check against a creature you can see that isn’t incapacitated, with a DC equal to 10 plus the target’s Charisma (Deception). If you succeed, you can use your Sneak Attack against that target even if you don’t have advantage on the attack roll, but not if you have disadvantage on it.. When attacked and hit by a creature affected by your Insightful Fighting feature, you may use a Reaction to add your Intelligence bonus to your Armor Class, potentially causing the attack to miss. You gain this bonus to your AC against all attacks from that creature until the start of your next turn. If that creature's Attack instead forces a Saving Throw, add your Intelligence bonus to that Saving Throw.
This benefit lasts for 1 minute or until you use this feature against a different target.
Deductive Strikes
Starting at 9th level, while your Insightful Fighting feature applies to a target creature, the following effects are now among your Cunning Strike options:
Breach (Cost: 2d6).Your Sneak Attack damage bypasses any damage resistances the target creature might possess.
Disarming Strike (Cost: 1 d6). The target must succeed on a Strength saving throw or drop one object of your choice that it’s holding, with the object landing in its space.
Distracting Strike (Cost: 1d6). The next attack roll against the target by an attacker other than you has Advantageif the attack is made before the start of your next turn.
Discombobulate (Cost: 2d6). The target has Disadvantage on the next saving throw it makes until the start of your next turn.
Evaluate (Cost: 1+ d6). For each d6 expended, you learn two of the following items about your target:
one damage resistance or immunity
once condition immunity
one special ability possessed by the creature that either does damage, or prevents damage
one option under their attack, legendary, or reaction actions
one special sense they possess
For example, if you forego 1d6, you learn two of the items above. If you forego 2d6, you learn four of the items.
Goading Strike (Cost: 1d6). The target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or have Disadvantage on attack rolls against targets other than you until the end of your next turn.
Eye for Detail
Starting at 9th level, you have Advantage on your Eye for Detail checks if you move no more than half your speed on the same turn.
Eye for Weakness
At 9th level, you learn to exploit a creature’s weaknesses by carefully studying its tactics and movement. While your Insightful Fighting feature applies to a creature, your Sneak Attack damage against that creature increases by an amount equal to your Proficiency Bonus. In addition, your focused attention helps you anticipate a foe’s retreat. When you hit a creature with an Opportunity Attack, you can reduce the creature’s Speed to 0 until the end of the current turn. You can then move up to half your Speed as part of the same Reaction. This movement doesn’t provoke Opportunity Attacks.
Your Insightful Fighting feature now lasts until you successfully use this feature against a different target.
Unerring Eye
Beginning at 13th level, your senses are almost impossible to foil. When using your Eye for Detail feature, you sense the presence of illusions, shapechangers not in their original form, and other magic designed to deceive the senses within 30 feet of you, provided you aren’t blinded or deafened. You sense that an effect is attempting to trick you, but you gain no insight into what is hidden or into its true nature.
You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Proficiency Bonus. You regain all expended uses of it when you finish a long rest, and you regain one use of it when you finish a short rest.
Eye for Weakness
At 13th level, your ability to exploit a creature’s weaknesses by studying its tactics and movement increases. When attacked and hit by a creature affected by your Insightful Fighting feature, you may use a Reaction to add your Intelligence bonus to your Armor Class, potentially causing the attack to miss. If the attack misses, you may then make an immediate Opportunity Attack, subject to all bonuses from your Insightful Fighting feature.
Master of Deduction
At 17th level, you have become a master of investigation and deductive reasoning. Your attack rolls against targets of your Inciteful Fighting can score a Critical Hit on a roll of 19 or 20 on the d20. In addition, you gain Truesight to a range of 10' if you move no more than half your speed on the same turn.
I imagine that the change to Insightful Fighting was to free up the bonus action, which Rogue's use a lot, but the potential issue I see with that is if you're using your Reaction to get advantage, you won't be able to use it for Uncanny Dodge. Since there are other ways to get advantage or Sneak Attack, I feel like a great many Rogues will prefer to hold onto the Reaction in case they need to Uncanny Dodge, because that's very important for damage mitigation. I feel like one bonus action to have Insightful Fighting for a minute (or switching targets) is a better way to handle it.
Sneak Attack damage bypassing damage resistances might be too powerful, but I'm not sure. EDIT: Wasn't it the case that 2024 MM removed a lot of the innate resistance to non-magical piercing/slashing/bludgeoning? If that's the case, then bypassing resistance isn't going to matter as much since there won't be as many times damage gets resisted in the first place.
Personal opinion: I would change insightful fighting to make it more like a detective version of scout rogue. Scout subclass grants proficiency in nature and survival (if not already obtained from background or skills during build). Instead of complicated method of doing a check to gain advantage condition, I would have inquisitive rogue subclass simply grant insight and investigation proficiencies (if not already taken from background or species).
Great job, the work looks high quality. I just have a few points I would like to raise:
Regarding 'Insightful Fighting', I wouldn't use a contested roll, as I believe they were removed in D&D 2024 (for example, with the Grapple or Hide actions). Instead, I suggest setting a DC. I am a bit unsure about which formula to use. I am torn between DC = 8 + Intelligence (Investigation) and DC = 10 + Intelligence (Investigation).
The benefits from the Mark of Detection are very similar to what you are proposing (When you make an Intelligence (Investigation) or Wisdom (Insight) check, you can roll 1d4 and add the number rolled to the ability check.), as well as the See Invisibility spell (with Unerring Eye). I know there were already overlapping. Maybe some of them could be managed or maybe it is not a good idea to take mark of detection and inquisitive together.
Starting at 3rd level, you can use a bonus action instead of an action to make a Search or Study check.
I would change that to you roll as an advantage. For 3rd level, maybe at a higher level (9th), you upgrade to advantage and as a bonus action. Moving should not be a factor beyond the basic movement rules.
Insightful Fighting
I think this should be a higher level, then 3rd, and you would need to see an actual attack. If you go 1st, how do you determine anything? That said, as an upgrade, allow you to determine even if you go 1st.
I would swap levels of these two so Master of Deduction is level 13 and Unerring Eye is at level 17. Allow for the better crit (combat) a bit lower in levels. But the ability to negate magic spells be a higher level. I feel being able to ignore illusions is very very powerful.
Great job, the work looks high quality. I just have a few points I would like to raise:
Regarding 'Insightful Fighting', I wouldn't use a contested roll, as I believe they were removed in D&D 2024 (for example, with the Grapple or Hide actions). Instead, I suggest setting a DC. I am a bit unsure about which formula to use. I am torn between DC = 8 + Intelligence (Investigation) and DC = 10 + Intelligence (Investigation).
Contested ability checks definitely still exist as a concept in the 2024 rules, but you're right that most built-in features don't call for them anymore.
If you still want it to be an ability check the Rogue rolls, you'd want the DC to be based on the target's stats — presumably their Charisma, since that's closer to how the old version worked — rather than the Rogue's Intelligence.
If you want it to be a saving throw that the target rolls (like Grappling) you'd want the DC to be 8 + the Rogue's Intelligence modifier + the Rogue's Proficiency Bonus.
Great job, the work looks high quality. I just have a few points I would like to raise:
Regarding 'Insightful Fighting', I wouldn't use a contested roll, as I believe they were removed in D&D 2024 (for example, with the Grapple or Hide actions). Instead, I suggest setting a DC. I am a bit unsure about which formula to use. I am torn between DC = 8 + Intelligence (Investigation) and DC = 10 + Intelligence (Investigation).
Contested ability checks definitely still exist as a concept in the 2024 rules, but you're right that most built-in features don't call for them anymore.
If you still want it to be an ability check the Rogue rolls, you'd want the DC to be based on the target's stats — presumably their Charisma, since that's closer to how the old version worked — rather than the Rogue's Intelligence.
If you want it to be a saving throw that the target rolls (like Grappling) you'd want the DC to be 8 + the Rogue's Intelligence modifier + the Rogue's Proficiency Bonus.
That's exactly what I wanted to say. Charisma saving throw against the Rogue DC = 8 + the Rogue's Intelligence modifier + the Rogue's Proficiency Bonus.
But there is still an issue. In D&D 2014 was [Insight check] vs [deception check]. The new way to replace the contested roll does not take in account any "special" skill of subjects. Indeed, the above formula, does not take in account the rogue expertise in Insight that in my opinion should increase the DC. Same way of thinking with barbarian and grapple saving throw. Also in this case I would rise the DC when the barbarian is in rage. In this case I would propose DC (with expertise in insight) = 8 + the Rogue's Intelligence modifier + 2* the Rogue's Proficiency Bonus.
Barbarian in rage (or any advantages in strength checks) and grapple action
DC (with rage) = 8 + the Barbarian's Strength modifier + 2* the Barbarian's Proficiency Bonus.
EDIT: A great job could be inspired from Medani inquisitive NPC: the Inquisitive Eye without considering Psychic damage.
Inquisitive Eye.Wisdom Saving Throw: DC 13, one creature the inquisitive can see within 60 feet. Failure: 10 (3d6) Psychic damage, and the target is marked. The inquisitive has Advantage on attack rolls against a target it has marked. While marked, the target can't become hidden from the inquisitive, and if it has the Invisible condition, it gains no benefit from that condition against the inquisitive. The mark disappears after 1 minute or when the inquisitive uses this action again. Success: Half damage only.
Thanks for all of the feedback... it's much appreciated.
My table has has just started some focused playtesting with this class, as well, so the timing is perfect.
I just updated the original post with the version we're testing, and also incorporated the most recent input. We had been discussing the changes to contested rolls, and this feels much cleaner. We all favor Ability Checks (player agency) as opposed to Saving Throws, so that's the direction we elected to go with.
Note - one more edit to Insightful Fighting - we returned it to the original form of being able to use Sneak Attack instead of Advantage. After further consideration, Advantage at the cost of only one Bonus Action with no downsides felt like it was too powerful, and stepped on the damage output toes of Barbarian too much.
Joakear - one more reason to keep it an active Skill Check on the part of the Rogue, as opposed to a Saving Throw on the part of the target.
That way it's an Investigation (Intelligence) Skill Check (the class has moved from an Int/Wis/Dex class to a more focused Int/Dex driven one) vrs of DC of 10 + the target's Charisma bonus (or Deception if it has that skill). That feels much more straightforward and aligned with other Class Features.
I could see swiping from the Inquisitive Eye feature at a higher level, but that feels too unbalanced at 3rd level.
I see you point and I understand the reasons moved you to remove the advantages and reconsider the contested roll.
In my personal view, I am really interested to play this subclass in Eberron and with the new Eberron: Forge of Artificier, the Medani Inquisitive NPC (exactly what my PG is) uses the DC against the saving throw to give advantage for one minute. Said that, until now I had no time to test it, but I will consider this rule to trigger the Insightful Fighting and the advantages. I like it.
BTW, do you think to give advantages for 1minute is OP? A rogue from distance, with shortbow and vex has always advantages, using only the first bonus action to stead aim. Maybe you interpreted your rule OP since you add also bonus to AC and saving throws. Instead the Medani inquisitive has only the advantages.
Finally, I'm not expert in class adaptation and if all of you said that I will take in account your experience when I will play my adventure and I will adapt the subclass for "my eberron".
you're welcome to use the subclass - have at it, and let me know how it goes. If we make any further changes, I'll bring them here and update the original post, so it's easy to find (I'm not going to publish it any time soon, so you'll need to recreate it if you're using DND Beyond). Let me know if you make any tweaks as well...
As for Advantage... Yes, a Rogue from distance can use Steady Aim to gain advantage on ranged combat, but at the cost of losing their movement. That can be a real problem. Barbarians have at-will Advantage, but at the cost of incoming attacks having Advantage as well. I felt that granting flat Advantage to Insightful Fighting was a bit too much, and stepped on the damage output playstyle of other classes. Doubling your chance of a critical, which also effects Sneak Attack, with zero downside, is not a trivial feature. The way we ended up feels balanced, and forces interesting decisions with the Rogue action economy, which is also enjoyable (at our table, at least).
Last detail. For the advantage, for the rogue, he/she uses the bonus action only in the first turn for Steady Aim. Then if he/she hit and uses a weapon with Vex, he/she will have advantage in the next hit without forced to use Stead Aim and if he/she hit in the second turn, again he/she has advantages.
I got your point now and I appreciated it. Barbarian has advantages at-will with a downside, and rogue (and whatever character using Vex) has advantages in the next turn only if he/she hit.
Currently in my head there is no a clear idea because:
- in Xanathar where Steady Aim did not exist, the "old inquisitive" uses Bonus Action in each turn to use Sneak attack in that turn. Then in Tasha Steady Aim was introduced and Insightful Fighting became less appreciated.
- in D&D2024, Steady Aim plus Vex replaced more or less Insightful Fighting, in my opinion.
- in Eberron2024, Medani inquisitive with Inquisitive Eye, if opponent fails Wisdom Saving Throw against DC the target is marked and the inquisitive has Advantage on attack rolls against a target it has marked. The mark disappears after 1 minute or when the inquisitive uses this action again.
- Now classes are stronger than D&D2014.
This not easy to make this subclass on the same level of other rogue subclass and I appreciate your interest and the fact we are talking about it. I will let you know.
Only now I've just noticed the modifications in your first message.
I took moments to understand what "my inquisitive" should be and effectively is similar your proposal. I like it. I think it is balanced (maybe a bit OP), but quite close to my PG.
Maybe, to match the personality of my character, I would replace the possibility to use Intelligence modifier to attack and damage (I associate it to magic like Battle Smith) with the Add the Intelligence modifier to initiative. I like my character is ALWAYS in alert.
[ Initiative Bonus. When you roll Initiative, you can add your Intelligence modifier to the roll. ]
EDIT: Finally, but I recognize is a my obsession, I would replace in Insightful Fighting effect. Since now it is easier to attack with advantage (with Vex) for Sneak Attack, maybe the Insightful Fighting could gift the Inquisitive for one minute a Bonus (Intelligence Modifier) for CA and saving throw only, when the character does not wear heavy armors and when the target attacks or casts spells. In my opinion, could be a good fusion between your version of Insightful Fighting and "Medani inquisitive" "inquisitive eye". At level 9, I would consider an improvement of this skill, let the inquisitive gains also advantages in attack rolls against the target for one minute (as Medani Inquisitive does). This would be my version of "Eye of Weakness". Then I like your "Advanced eye for weakness" at 13th level. Considering the character behavior that means that in the first part of career (third level), the inquisitive is an expert to read opponents to defend himself. Then, when he become expert and expert (9th level), he/she is able to take advantage of target "habits" and hit it more easily (flat advantage attack rolls against the target for one minute). But again, this would be my personal customization.
Cross posting from the Homebrew forum, as it hasn't been getting much traction.
I'm a big fan of the idea of the Inquisitive Rogue, but the performance of the subclass is... suboptimal. It just doesn't seem to do what its' supposed to do, and other Rogues seems to be able to do most of it and have their cool feature on top of it. Which leads me to this -
I'd really appreciate any constructive feedback.
EDIT: Updated again based on feedback and some testing
Updated Inquisitive Rogue
As an archetypal Inquisitive, you excel at rooting out secrets and unraveling mysteries. You rely on your sharp eye for detail, but also on your finely honed ability to read the words and deeds of other creatures to determine their true intent. You excel at defeating creatures that hide among and prey upon ordinary folk, and your mastery of lore and your keen deductions make you well equipped to expose and end hidden evils.
Eye for Detail
Starting at 3rd level, you can use a bonus action instead of an action to make a Search or Study check.
Focused Attention
Starting at 3rd level, you may choose two of the following Skills: Deception, Insight, Intimidation, Performance or Persuasion.
Whenever you make an ability check using those skills, you can make it as an Intelligence check, even if it normally uses a different ability. What you might lack in charisma, you can make up for with your knowledge of how creatures think or behave.
When using a Finesse weapon, use your choice of Dexterity, Intelligence or Strength for the attack and damage rolls. You must use the same modifier for both rolls.
Insightful Fighting
Insightful Fighting
At 3rd level, you gain the ability to decipher an opponent’s tactics and develop a counter to them. As a Bonus Action, you can make an Intelligence (Investigation) check against a creature you can see that isn’t incapacitated, with a DC equal to 10 plus the target’s Charisma (Deception). If you succeed, you can use your Sneak Attack against that target even if you don’t have advantage on the attack roll, but not if you have disadvantage on it.. When attacked and hit by a creature affected by your Insightful Fighting feature, you may use a Reaction to add your Intelligence bonus to your Armor Class, potentially causing the attack to miss. You gain this bonus to your AC against all attacks from that creature until the start of your next turn. If that creature's Attack instead forces a Saving Throw, add your Intelligence bonus to that Saving Throw.
This benefit lasts for 1 minute or until you use this feature against a different target.
Deductive Strikes
Starting at 9th level, while your Insightful Fighting feature applies to a target creature, the following effects are now among your Cunning Strike options:
Breach (Cost: 2d6). Your Sneak Attack damage bypasses any damage resistances the target creature might possess.
Disarming Strike (Cost: 1 d6). The target must succeed on a Strength saving throw or drop one object of your choice that it’s holding, with the object landing in its space.
Distracting Strike (Cost: 1d6). The next attack roll against the target by an attacker other than you has Advantage if the attack is made before the start of your next turn.
Discombobulate (Cost: 2d6). The target has Disadvantage on the next saving throw it makes until the start of your next turn.
Evaluate (Cost: 1+ d6). For each d6 expended, you learn two of the following items about your target:
For example, if you forego 1d6, you learn two of the items above. If you forego 2d6, you learn four of the items.
Goading Strike (Cost: 1d6). The target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or have Disadvantage on attack rolls against targets other than you until the end of your next turn.
Eye for Detail
Starting at 9th level, you have Advantage on your Eye for Detail checks if you move no more than half your speed on the same turn.
Eye for Weakness
At 9th level, you learn to exploit a creature’s weaknesses by carefully studying its tactics and movement. While your Insightful Fighting feature applies to a creature, your Sneak Attack damage against that creature increases by an amount equal to your Proficiency Bonus. In addition, your focused attention helps you anticipate a foe’s retreat. When you hit a creature with an Opportunity Attack, you can reduce the creature’s Speed to 0 until the end of the current turn. You can then move up to half your Speed as part of the same Reaction. This movement doesn’t provoke Opportunity Attacks.
Your Insightful Fighting feature now lasts until you successfully use this feature against a different target.
Unerring Eye
Beginning at 13th level, your senses are almost impossible to foil. When using your Eye for Detail feature, you sense the presence of illusions, shapechangers not in their original form, and other magic designed to deceive the senses within 30 feet of you, provided you aren’t blinded or deafened. You sense that an effect is attempting to trick you, but you gain no insight into what is hidden or into its true nature.
You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Proficiency Bonus. You regain all expended uses of it when you finish a long rest, and you regain one use of it when you finish a short rest.
Eye for Weakness
At 13th level, your ability to exploit a creature’s weaknesses by studying its tactics and movement increases. When attacked and hit by a creature affected by your Insightful Fighting feature, you may use a Reaction to add your Intelligence bonus to your Armor Class, potentially causing the attack to miss. If the attack misses, you may then make an immediate Opportunity Attack, subject to all bonuses from your Insightful Fighting feature.
Master of Deduction
At 17th level, you have become a master of investigation and deductive reasoning. Your attack rolls against targets of your Inciteful Fighting can score a Critical Hit on a roll of 19 or 20 on the d20. In addition, you gain Truesight to a range of 10' if you move no more than half your speed on the same turn.
Some interesting things, certainly.
I imagine that the change to Insightful Fighting was to free up the bonus action, which Rogue's use a lot, but the potential issue I see with that is if you're using your Reaction to get advantage, you won't be able to use it for Uncanny Dodge. Since there are other ways to get advantage or Sneak Attack, I feel like a great many Rogues will prefer to hold onto the Reaction in case they need to Uncanny Dodge, because that's very important for damage mitigation. I feel like one bonus action to have Insightful Fighting for a minute (or switching targets) is a better way to handle it.
Sneak Attack damage bypassing damage resistances might be too powerful, but I'm not sure. EDIT: Wasn't it the case that 2024 MM removed a lot of the innate resistance to non-magical piercing/slashing/bludgeoning? If that's the case, then bypassing resistance isn't going to matter as much since there won't be as many times damage gets resisted in the first place.
Personal opinion: I would change insightful fighting to make it more like a detective version of scout rogue. Scout subclass grants proficiency in nature and survival (if not already obtained from background or skills during build). Instead of complicated method of doing a check to gain advantage condition, I would have inquisitive rogue subclass simply grant insight and investigation proficiencies (if not already taken from background or species).
Thanks for the input... I've made some revisions and tightened things up a bit.
Great job, the work looks high quality. I just have a few points I would like to raise:
Regarding 'Insightful Fighting', I wouldn't use a contested roll, as I believe they were removed in D&D 2024 (for example, with the Grapple or Hide actions). Instead, I suggest setting a DC. I am a bit unsure about which formula to use. I am torn between DC = 8 + Intelligence (Investigation) and DC = 10 + Intelligence (Investigation).
The benefits from the Mark of Detection are very similar to what you are proposing (When you make an Intelligence (Investigation) or Wisdom (Insight) check, you can roll 1d4 and add the number rolled to the ability check.), as well as the See Invisibility spell (with Unerring Eye). I know there were already overlapping. Maybe some of them could be managed or maybe it is not a good idea to take mark of detection and inquisitive together.
I would change that to you roll as an advantage. For 3rd level, maybe at a higher level (9th), you upgrade to advantage and as a bonus action. Moving should not be a factor beyond the basic movement rules.
I think this should be a higher level, then 3rd, and you would need to see an actual attack. If you go 1st, how do you determine anything? That said, as an upgrade, allow you to determine even if you go 1st.
I would swap levels of these two so Master of Deduction is level 13 and Unerring Eye is at level 17. Allow for the better crit (combat) a bit lower in levels. But the ability to negate magic spells be a higher level. I feel being able to ignore illusions is very very powerful.
Wonderful job and looks really good.
Contested ability checks definitely still exist as a concept in the 2024 rules, but you're right that most built-in features don't call for them anymore.
If you still want it to be an ability check the Rogue rolls, you'd want the DC to be based on the target's stats — presumably their Charisma, since that's closer to how the old version worked — rather than the Rogue's Intelligence.
If you want it to be a saving throw that the target rolls (like Grappling) you'd want the DC to be 8 + the Rogue's Intelligence modifier + the Rogue's Proficiency Bonus.
pronouns: he/she/they
That's exactly what I wanted to say. Charisma saving throw against the Rogue DC = 8 + the Rogue's Intelligence modifier + the Rogue's Proficiency Bonus.
But there is still an issue. In D&D 2014 was [Insight check] vs [deception check]. The new way to replace the contested roll does not take in account any "special" skill of subjects.
Indeed, the above formula, does not take in account the rogue expertise in Insight that in my opinion should increase the DC. Same way of thinking with barbarian and grapple saving throw. Also in this case I would rise the DC when the barbarian is in rage.
In this case I would propose
DC (with expertise in insight) = 8 + the Rogue's Intelligence modifier + 2* the Rogue's Proficiency Bonus.
Barbarian in rage (or any advantages in strength checks) and grapple action
DC (with rage) = 8 + the Barbarian's Strength modifier + 2* the Barbarian's Proficiency Bonus.
EDIT: A great job could be inspired from Medani inquisitive NPC: the Inquisitive Eye without considering Psychic damage.
Inquisitive Eye. Wisdom Saving Throw: DC 13, one creature the inquisitive can see within 60 feet. Failure: 10 (3d6) Psychic damage, and the target is marked. The inquisitive has Advantage on attack rolls against a target it has marked. While marked, the target can't become hidden from the inquisitive, and if it has the Invisible condition, it gains no benefit from that condition against the inquisitive. The mark disappears after 1 minute or when the inquisitive uses this action again. Success: Half damage only.
Thanks for all of the feedback... it's much appreciated.
My table has has just started some focused playtesting with this class, as well, so the timing is perfect.
I just updated the original post with the version we're testing, and also incorporated the most recent input. We had been discussing the changes to contested rolls, and this feels much cleaner. We all favor Ability Checks (player agency) as opposed to Saving Throws, so that's the direction we elected to go with.
Let me know what you think...
Note - one more edit to Insightful Fighting - we returned it to the original form of being able to use Sneak Attack instead of Advantage. After further consideration, Advantage at the cost of only one Bonus Action with no downsides felt like it was too powerful, and stepped on the damage output toes of Barbarian too much.
Joakear - one more reason to keep it an active Skill Check on the part of the Rogue, as opposed to a Saving Throw on the part of the target.
That way it's an Investigation (Intelligence) Skill Check (the class has moved from an Int/Wis/Dex class to a more focused Int/Dex driven one) vrs of DC of 10 + the target's Charisma bonus (or Deception if it has that skill). That feels much more straightforward and aligned with other Class Features.
I could see swiping from the Inquisitive Eye feature at a higher level, but that feels too unbalanced at 3rd level.
I see you point and I understand the reasons moved you to remove the advantages and reconsider the contested roll.
In my personal view, I am really interested to play this subclass in Eberron and with the new Eberron: Forge of Artificier, the Medani Inquisitive NPC (exactly what my PG is) uses the DC against the saving throw to give advantage for one minute. Said that, until now I had no time to test it, but I will consider this rule to trigger the Insightful Fighting and the advantages. I like it.
BTW, do you think to give advantages for 1minute is OP? A rogue from distance, with shortbow and vex has always advantages, using only the first bonus action to stead aim. Maybe you interpreted your rule OP since you add also bonus to AC and saving throws. Instead the Medani inquisitive has only the advantages.
Finally, I'm not expert in class adaptation and if all of you said that I will take in account your experience when I will play my adventure and I will adapt the subclass for "my eberron".
Joakear -
you're welcome to use the subclass - have at it, and let me know how it goes. If we make any further changes, I'll bring them here and update the original post, so it's easy to find (I'm not going to publish it any time soon, so you'll need to recreate it if you're using DND Beyond). Let me know if you make any tweaks as well...
As for Advantage... Yes, a Rogue from distance can use Steady Aim to gain advantage on ranged combat, but at the cost of losing their movement. That can be a real problem. Barbarians have at-will Advantage, but at the cost of incoming attacks having Advantage as well. I felt that granting flat Advantage to Insightful Fighting was a bit too much, and stepped on the damage output playstyle of other classes. Doubling your chance of a critical, which also effects Sneak Attack, with zero downside, is not a trivial feature. The way we ended up feels balanced, and forces interesting decisions with the Rogue action economy, which is also enjoyable (at our table, at least).
Interesting point of view, Bishop69, really.
Last detail. For the advantage, for the rogue, he/she uses the bonus action only in the first turn for Steady Aim. Then if he/she hit and uses a weapon with Vex, he/she will have advantage in the next hit without forced to use Stead Aim and if he/she hit in the second turn, again he/she has advantages.
I got your point now and I appreciated it. Barbarian has advantages at-will with a downside, and rogue (and whatever character using Vex) has advantages in the next turn only if he/she hit.
Currently in my head there is no a clear idea because:
- in Xanathar where Steady Aim did not exist, the "old inquisitive" uses Bonus Action in each turn to use Sneak attack in that turn. Then in Tasha Steady Aim was introduced and Insightful Fighting became less appreciated.
- in D&D2024, Steady Aim plus Vex replaced more or less Insightful Fighting, in my opinion.
- in Eberron2024, Medani inquisitive with Inquisitive Eye, if opponent fails Wisdom Saving Throw against DC the target is marked and the inquisitive has Advantage on attack rolls against a target it has marked. The mark disappears after 1 minute or when the inquisitive uses this action again.
- Now classes are stronger than D&D2014.
This not easy to make this subclass on the same level of other rogue subclass and I appreciate your interest and the fact we are talking about it. I will let you know.
Thanks
Only now I've just noticed the modifications in your first message.
I took moments to understand what "my inquisitive" should be and effectively is similar your proposal. I like it. I think it is balanced (maybe a bit OP), but quite close to my PG.
Maybe, to match the personality of my character, I would replace the possibility to use Intelligence modifier to attack and damage (I associate it to magic like Battle Smith) with the Add the Intelligence modifier to initiative. I like my character is ALWAYS in alert.
[ Initiative Bonus. When you roll Initiative, you can add your Intelligence modifier to the roll. ]
EDIT:
Finally, but I recognize is a my obsession, I would replace in Insightful Fighting effect.
Since now it is easier to attack with advantage (with Vex) for Sneak Attack, maybe the Insightful Fighting could gift the Inquisitive for one minute a Bonus (Intelligence Modifier) for CA and saving throw only, when the character does not wear heavy armors and when the target attacks or casts spells. In my opinion, could be a good fusion between your version of Insightful Fighting and "Medani inquisitive" "inquisitive eye".
At level 9, I would consider an improvement of this skill, let the inquisitive gains also advantages in attack rolls against the target for one minute (as Medani Inquisitive does). This would be my version of "Eye of Weakness".
Then I like your "Advanced eye for weakness" at 13th level.
Considering the character behavior that means that in the first part of career (third level), the inquisitive is an expert to read opponents to defend himself. Then, when he become expert and expert (9th level), he/she is able to take advantage of target "habits" and hit it more easily (flat advantage attack rolls against the target for one minute).
But again, this would be my personal customization.
Thanks for your work