Long story short, this Assassin will be my first one, and I actually don't want her to make ranged attacks (just because). She is a human, which means she can't hide behind her party or whatever. So how is Assassin's "critical hit on surprised creatures" actually works for melee fighting Assassins, if the target is standing far away from them?
For example, you hiding behind the table, and the enemy standing about 15-20 ft away from you. They are unaware of your presence. Can you just, um, go to them? Do you need to reduce your speed to go stealthily? Do you need to roll Stealth again (even if you successfully Hided before that)? Is critical hit even possible in that situation?
P.S. sorry for possible mistakes, English is not my native.
Long story short, this Assassin will be my first one, and I actually don't want her to make ranged attacks (just because). She is a human, which means she can't hide behind her party or whatever. So how is Assassin's "critical hit on surprised creatures" actually works for melee fighting Assassins, if the target is standing far away from them?
For example, you hiding behind the table, and the enemy standing about 15-20 ft away from you. They are unaware of your presence. Can you just, um, go to them? Do you need to reduce your speed to go stealthily? Do you need to roll Stealth again (even if you successfully Hided before that)? Is critical hit even possible in that situation?
P.S. sorry for possible mistakes, English is not my native.
Cunning action can be used as a bonus action to close that distance stealthily.
coordinate with your DM for what group of actions and such can facilitate you to getting the surprise round for your melee concept.
Surprise only happens once, hiding after an encounter starts does not grant one surprise. An assassin’s ability only procs on attacks made BEFORE the enemy(s)’ end of their first turn, the one where they get no movement, actions, or reactions. They get their reaction back at the end of their turn and are no longer surprised. Thus, assassin ability no longer procs.
Unless you really like Assassin capstone ability, the sub-class is fairly lacking. You will get more utility out of Mastermind and be able to sneak attack practically every turn with Swashbuckler.
The way we play with it, as long as you are hidden at the start of your turn, your first attack that turn will be at advantage, even if you move a lot in between and is visible. Basically you catch them somewhat unaware, even though they may have technically seen you for 1 second before you are on top of them.
So in practice what i do is I hide, dart in and attack, either have a partymember also move into melee to allow me to sneak attack without advantage, find another way to get advantage or I use my move to get out of sight and my bonus action to hide again.
As for the first round, as an assassin you always have advantage until the enemy acts, so that is not really a problem. For example, you could disguise as a random person, stand next to your target and just stab them for assassinate since the enemy would be surprised (unless they have reason not to). Hiding is only one way to surprise someone. This is kind of why the disguise-abilities of an assassin are really powerful.
The way y'a;; play helps ANY rogue sub-class. Nothing extends the surprise state, and all that does is cause an automatic critical hit, which is nice, but not as nice as other sub-class abilities. For majority of campaigns, I'd take Swashbukler's 95% sneak attack chance on every attack after first round over two guaranteed criticals per encounter.
Surprise and Sneak Attack are two different things. Surprise only happens on the first round of combat, and only if you start combat with your entire party being hidden from the enemy.
As a human without dark vision, you're going to find it extremely difficult to get a surprise round in combat.
I know how surprise attack itself works, I asked only for advice how to coordinate it with the melee weapon and long distance.
I actually like their social abilities, not their battle things. So because I will play one shot with this character and she has an actress backstory, it's a good chance to make some nice non-battle encounters with the help of Assassin's abilitiy to play another person.
The DM needs to give you and your party the "Surprise Condition" This does not happen too often from my experience but it does happen. If you and your party come upon a group of goblins and they don't know you are there the DM will probably say that you surprised the goblins and now that you have the condition you can sneak in and attack attack to get the crit. Should the goblins know you are there the surprise condition never happens. Whether or not you get the surprised condition really depends on the situation and the DM running your game. It's a fantastic ability when it happens it just doesn't happen very often.
I played in a game with my swashbuckler with an assassin. We sneaked into a room leaving the rest of the party just outside the room. When we attacked the bandits in the room did not know we were there the DM said we surprised them. Initiative was rolled. I went first ran in and attacked what appeared to the leader. As a Swashbuckler I got sneak attack because there were no other enemies within 5 ft of me. The assassin went next and attacked the leader. We had the Surprise condition and because I was engage with the bandit leader he got the critical sneak attack combo. Even though the Bandit Leader saw the assassin coming he was surprised when we attacked.
"I asked only for advice how to coordinate it with the melee weapon and long distance."
Just make sure the entire party is hidden before combat starts. The DM should award you with the surprise condition. It's that simple. If the enemy detects anyone in your party before combat you can't get the critical hit.
For example, you hiding behind the table, and the enemy standing about 15-20 ft away from you. They are unaware of your presence. Can you just, um, go to them? The enemy needs to be unaware of the presence of your entire party. If everyone is hidden when you engage you don't even need to be hidden. You have advantage on the creature assuming it hasn't taken its turn yet. Which in a "Surprised condition" is usually the case. Because you have advantage you don't even need to be stealthy to get in a sneak attack.
You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn’t taken a turn in the combat yet. In addition, any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit.
Do you need to reduce your speed to go stealthily? The short answer is NO. If the DM rewards you and your party with the Surprise condition at the beginning of battle you don't need to be stealthy.
Do you need to roll Stealth again (even if you successfully Hided before that)? Is critical hit even possible in that situation? You don't need to roll stealth again. If you and your party are hidden. If everyone is hidden at the beginning of combat a critical hit is possible. If the DM says that you and your party surprise the enemy when combat is engaged you can get a critical hit if the creature you attack hasn't taken its turn yet. You need to have a higher initiative roll to take your turn before them. In some cases the DM may allow you to attack before initiative is rolled.
For example, you hiding behind the table, and the enemy standing about 15-20 ft away from you. They are unaware of your presence. Can you just, um, go to them? The enemy needs to be unaware of the presence of your entire party. If everyone is hidden when you engage you don't even need to be hidden. You have advantage on the creature assuming it hasn't taken its turn yet. Which in a "Surprised condition" is usually the case. Because you have advantage you don't even need to be stealthy to get in a sneak attack.
You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn’t taken a turn in the combat yet. In addition, any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit.
Do you need to reduce your speed to go stealthily? The short answer is NO. If the DM rewards you and your party with the Surprise condition at the beginning of battle you don't need to be stealthy.
Do you need to roll Stealth again (even if you successfully Hided before that)? Is critical hit even possible in that situation? You don't need to roll stealth again. If you and your party are hidden. If everyone is hidden at the beginning of combat a critical hit is possible. If the DM says that you and your party surprise the enemy when combat is engaged you can get a critical hit if the creature you attack hasn't taken its turn yet. You need to have a higher initiative roll to take your turn before them. In some cases the DM may allow you to attack before initiative is rolled.
thank you for such detailed answer! it really makes it easy to play for me!
A creature is surprised until its first turn in combat if every opponent was trying to be stealthy and rolled a stealth score higher than the creature's passive perception.
This stealth roll is done before combat starts. Once combat starts you don't need to stay stealthy during the surprise round.
Hi there, I'm in need of some Rogue advices.
Long story short, this Assassin will be my first one, and I actually don't want her to make ranged attacks (just because). She is a human, which means she can't hide behind her party or whatever. So how is Assassin's "critical hit on surprised creatures" actually works for melee fighting Assassins, if the target is standing far away from them?
For example, you hiding behind the table, and the enemy standing about 15-20 ft away from you. They are unaware of your presence. Can you just, um, go to them? Do you need to reduce your speed to go stealthily? Do you need to roll Stealth again (even if you successfully Hided before that)? Is critical hit even possible in that situation?
P.S. sorry for possible mistakes, English is not my native.
Cunning action can be used as a bonus action to close that distance stealthily.
coordinate with your DM for what group of actions and such can facilitate you to getting the surprise round for your melee concept.
Blank
thank you!!
Surprise only happens once, hiding after an encounter starts does not grant one surprise. An assassin’s ability only procs on attacks made BEFORE the enemy(s)’ end of their first turn, the one where they get no movement, actions, or reactions. They get their reaction back at the end of their turn and are no longer surprised. Thus, assassin ability no longer procs.
Unless you really like Assassin capstone ability, the sub-class is fairly lacking. You will get more utility out of Mastermind and be able to sneak attack practically every turn with Swashbuckler.
The way we play with it, as long as you are hidden at the start of your turn, your first attack that turn will be at advantage, even if you move a lot in between and is visible. Basically you catch them somewhat unaware, even though they may have technically seen you for 1 second before you are on top of them.
So in practice what i do is I hide, dart in and attack, either have a partymember also move into melee to allow me to sneak attack without advantage, find another way to get advantage or I use my move to get out of sight and my bonus action to hide again.
As for the first round, as an assassin you always have advantage until the enemy acts, so that is not really a problem. For example, you could disguise as a random person, stand next to your target and just stab them for assassinate since the enemy would be surprised (unless they have reason not to). Hiding is only one way to surprise someone. This is kind of why the disguise-abilities of an assassin are really powerful.
@Rasmus_Huagen_San
The way y'a;; play helps ANY rogue sub-class. Nothing extends the surprise state, and all that does is cause an automatic critical hit, which is nice, but not as nice as other sub-class abilities. For majority of campaigns, I'd take Swashbukler's 95% sneak attack chance on every attack after first round over two guaranteed criticals per encounter.
Surprise and Sneak Attack are two different things. Surprise only happens on the first round of combat, and only if you start combat with your entire party being hidden from the enemy.
As a human without dark vision, you're going to find it extremely difficult to get a surprise round in combat.
I know how surprise attack itself works, I asked only for advice how to coordinate it with the melee weapon and long distance.
I actually like their social abilities, not their battle things. So because I will play one shot with this character and she has an actress backstory, it's a good chance to make some nice non-battle encounters with the help of Assassin's abilitiy to play another person.
yup I know that and it was not the point of question
The DM needs to give you and your party the "Surprise Condition" This does not happen too often from my experience but it does happen. If you and your party come upon a group of goblins and they don't know you are there the DM will probably say that you surprised the goblins and now that you have the condition you can sneak in and attack attack to get the crit. Should the goblins know you are there the surprise condition never happens. Whether or not you get the surprised condition really depends on the situation and the DM running your game. It's a fantastic ability when it happens it just doesn't happen very often.
I played in a game with my swashbuckler with an assassin. We sneaked into a room leaving the rest of the party just outside the room. When we attacked the bandits in the room did not know we were there the DM said we surprised them. Initiative was rolled. I went first ran in and attacked what appeared to the leader. As a Swashbuckler I got sneak attack because there were no other enemies within 5 ft of me. The assassin went next and attacked the leader. We had the Surprise condition and because I was engage with the bandit leader he got the critical sneak attack combo. Even though the Bandit Leader saw the assassin coming he was surprised when we attacked.
"I asked only for advice how to coordinate it with the melee weapon and long distance."
Just make sure the entire party is hidden before combat starts. The DM should award you with the surprise condition. It's that simple. If the enemy detects anyone in your party before combat you can't get the critical hit.
For example, you hiding behind the table, and the enemy standing about 15-20 ft away from you. They are unaware of your presence. Can you just, um, go to them? The enemy needs to be unaware of the presence of your entire party. If everyone is hidden when you engage you don't even need to be hidden. You have advantage on the creature assuming it hasn't taken its turn yet. Which in a "Surprised condition" is usually the case. Because you have advantage you don't even need to be stealthy to get in a sneak attack.
You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn’t taken a turn in the combat yet. In addition, any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit.
Do you need to reduce your speed to go stealthily? The short answer is NO. If the DM rewards you and your party with the Surprise condition at the beginning of battle you don't need to be stealthy.
Do you need to roll Stealth again (even if you successfully Hided before that)? Is critical hit even possible in that situation? You don't need to roll stealth again. If you and your party are hidden. If everyone is hidden at the beginning of combat a critical hit is possible. If the DM says that you and your party surprise the enemy when combat is engaged you can get a critical hit if the creature you attack hasn't taken its turn yet. You need to have a higher initiative roll to take your turn before them. In some cases the DM may allow you to attack before initiative is rolled.
thank you for such detailed answer! it really makes it easy to play for me!
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/07/30/how-long-surprise-last/
A creature is surprised until its first turn in combat if every opponent was trying to be stealthy and rolled a stealth score higher than the creature's passive perception.
This stealth roll is done before combat starts. Once combat starts you don't need to stay stealthy during the surprise round.
Check the sage advice compendium, page 6. It has a lot of info that you will find useful. https://media.wizards.com/2019/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf
thank you!