will an average human (+1 to all stats human, not the variant) rouge who starts at level 1 with an total dexterity score of 16 as they progress in levels deal more, less or an aproximately equal amount of average damage per round compared to an human fighter or barbarian who starts with 16 strength, assuming both humans use the best weapons available to them and that the players always decide to increase their strength or dexterity score whenever they gain an ability score increase instead of spending it on a feat, while also assuming that the rouge player will get of their sneak attack every round?
Or in other words is the rouge better or worse than most of the martial classes in terms of how much damage they can turn out each round, when not accounting for minmaxing on ether front and when ignoring the defensive and non combat skills of both classes?
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
In the games I've played, the overall damage has been comparable, but sneak attack has the disadvantage that it can only be against one target. This means a lot of damage can get wasted depending on enemy hp.
I would say they out-damage barbarians and are comparable to fighters. Rogues get a very big benefit from taking 5 levels in another class to get the secondary attack, simply because that gives two chances to land all that sneak attack damage (which rogues are prone to lose with a bad roll).
Rogues also get really strong synergy with any party members who can force opportunity attack movement through Dissonant Whispers and the like since it doubles their damage output. This is because Sneak attack is only once per turn, rather than per round. Combine for even greater damage by grabbing Booming blade either via subclass, feat, or multiclassing.
This touches on a conversation I had with my DM recently. I play a Rogue, his opinion is Sneak Attack damage is too high.
Anyway, here is a Google spreadsheet that compares expected damage output by level for martial classes: 5e DPR Calculations. I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions from the data but hopefully you can see that a Rogue should at least be getting Sneak Attack every round in order to keep up with the basic damage assumptions of the game.
Basic assumptions I've used in calculating DPR:
All characters start with a 16 in their attack stat (Str/Dex) and increase it to 18 @ level 4 and 20 @ level 8.
Target ACs as per the Monster Statistics by CR table from chapter 9 of the DMG, assuming a creature of CR equal to the character's level. This effectively fixes accuracy at 65%.
No feats or multiclassing and with the exception of Rage, no consumable resources are used (i.e. no Smites for the Paladin).
No subclass features that may affect DPR have been included (to many variables to consider).
Rogue damage assumes they qualify for Sneak Attack, uses a Rapier and is presented with and without advantage.
Fighter damage includes the effects of the relevant Fighting Styles (Dueling for S&B). S&B assumes a longsword, GW assumes a Greatsword and Archery assumes a Longbow.
Paladin damage includes the effects of the relevant Fighting Styles (Dueling for S&B) and includes Improved Divine Smite from level 11. S&B assumes a longsword, GW assumes a Greatsword.
Barbarian damage assumes the use of a Greataxe and is presented with and without Rage and with and without Reckless Attack.
I've ignored the Ranger because a lot of their damage boosts come from spells or subclass features. Additionally, DPR would be equivalent to a Fighter up to level 8 and then static from there.
This touches on a conversation I had with my DM recently. I play a Rogue, his opinion is Sneak Attack damage is too high.
Anyway, here is a Google spreadsheet that compares expected damage output by level for martial classes: 5e DPR Calculations. I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions from the data but hopefully you can see that a Rogue should at least be getting Sneak Attack every round in order to keep up with the basic damage assumptions of the game.
Basic assumptions I've used in calculating DPR:
All characters start with a 16 in their attack stat (Str/Dex) and increase it to 18 @ level 4 and 20 @ level 8.
Target ACs as per the Monster Statistics by CR table from chapter 9 of the DMG, assuming a creature of CR equal to the character's level. This effectively fixes accuracy at 65%.
No feats or multiclassing and with the exception of Rage, no consumable resources are used (i.e. no Smites for the Paladin).
No subclass features that may affect DPR have been included (to many variables to consider).
Rogue damage assumes they qualify for Sneak Attack, uses a Rapier and is presented with and without advantage.
Fighter damage includes the effects of the relevant Fighting Styles (Dueling for S&B). S&B assumes a longsword, GW assumes a Greatsword and Archery assumes a Longbow.
Paladin damage includes the effects of the relevant Fighting Styles (Dueling for S&B) and includes Improved Divine Smite from level 11. S&B assumes a longsword, GW assumes a Greatsword.
Barbarian damage assumes the use of a Greataxe and is presented with and without Rage and with and without Reckless Attack.
I've ignored the Ranger because a lot of their damage boosts come from spells or subclass features. Additionally, DPR would be equivalent to a Fighter up to level 8 and then static from there.
actiuallty this is exactly what i wanted, thank you so very much for sharing this
however i think that it would be interesting to have a table for two weapon fighting for barbarian fighter and rouge since that will for the fighter give better damage per round in earlier levels and will makes rouges significantly more likely to land at least one sneak attack, yeah for many rouges it is more important to have an bonus action available to use cunning action, and for barbarians two weapon fighting presents more times for you to apply rage damage and more times to trigger brutal critical (but less extra damage when you do)
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I would save that the assumptions made do favor the rogue mainly for two reasons:
1. No consumable resources used.
The rogue has no consumable resources so this doesn't lower his DPR,
A fighter has action surge, how much it improves his stats depends on how many rounds of battle he has per short rest, a dungeaon crawl might see 3 fights of (say) 4-5 rounds but often there will only be one fight per SR. It would be interesting so see how much the fighter damage increases by if you allow one action surge per 10 rounds of combat.
A paladin's smites are a large proportion of his DPR, if you work on 20 rounds of combat per day, the paladin might not use all his slots smiting (castings non DPR spells or keeping a spare speel or two in reserve) sosay he goes through enough smites to fill his spell slots every 30 rounds.
2. Rogue damage assumes sneak attack a rogue always tries to get sneak attack but sometimes it does happen how much does that DPR go downif he can only get sneak attack 80% of the time.
Having said that there is more to a character's role in the party than DPR. Fighters, Paladins and Barbarians are generally better at taking damage than Rogues (bigger hit dice, heavy armor or resistance to damage due to rage etc) so a melee rogie is a bit of a glass cannon. Rogues do have other roles such as scouting stealthily and picking locks on the other hand Paladins make a great face.
Just a general observation I've made playing different rogues in two campaigns (separate group makeups too). The rogue comes in somewhere after the Paladin (burst smites) and fighters (using action surge). But the rogue has the virtue of having decent consistent damage and by far the most party utility.
Rogue damage baseline, TWF, short swords, only dexterity ASIs chosen. The +X.XX damage is expected damage against a foe with a reaction attack on another creatures turn, benefiting from sneak attack.
Lvl 1= 9.535, +6.35 with reaction
Lvl 3= 12.72, +8.625 with reaction
Lvl 5= 16.505, +11.5 with reaction
Lvl 7= 19.69, +13.775 with reaction
Lvl 9= 23.475, +16.65 with reaction
Lvl 11= 26.66, +18.925 with reaction
Lvl 13= 29.845, +21.2 with reaction
Lvl 15= 33.03, +23.475 with reaction
Lvl 17= 36.215, +25.75 with reaction
Lvl 19= 39.4, +28.025 with reaction
rogue damage calculations were said to be the Baseline of damage for 5e toward the beginning of the games development. I’m not sure if that design philosophy is still being used today. Interestingly a warlock with Eldritch blast/agonizing blast/Hex is within 1 point of DPR at every tier of gameplay. The rogue does start comfortably ahead at levels 1-4 though.
To maximize the Rogue damage potential, is it better to go with two light weapons like shortswords, or is a rapier the better choice. To me it seems like the two weapons allow for double the chance to hit, but at the loss of Cunning Action to get away.
Two shortswords are probably the better option. 1 average damage isn't a substitute for the second chance to actually hit with your attack. Of course that's sacrificing your bonus action, so only strike twice if you miss with the first one.
To maximize the Rogue damage potential, is it better to go with two light weapons like shortswords, or is a rapier the better choice. To me it seems like the two weapons allow for double the chance to hit, but at the loss of Cunning Action to get away.
I'm currently playing Mighlo (Lvl 5) in one of my games. He's a lvl 4 Rogue (Swashbuckler) and a lvl 1 Fighter MC. It is always better to go with Two Weapon Fighting for a Rogue regardless of weapons because a Rogue's main source of damage output is sneak attack, and two chances to land your sneak attack is better than one. 1 D8 dmg dice really isn't much more than a D6 or even a D4 in the grand scheme of things when your sneak attack will be doing 1D6/2D6 etc... Also, if you land your sneak attack on your first attack it still leaves you the option of doing a cunning action. Although, the reason I love swashbuckler is because you can attack twice and still get out of dodge without needing to disengage.
I have Mighlo set up with 2 rapiers (Duel Wielder Feat) which also adds +1 to his AC and the Fighter's TWF fighting style which adds my +4 dmg bonus to my offhand weapon.
Variant human/crossbow expert feat with a single hand crossbow (and free hand for loading ammunition) allows twin attacks (action/bonus action). Both gain dex modifier. My current preferred build.
Nullifies the need for squishy rogues to get close and makes advantage less important with the lvl 1 twinned attacks. Wonder how this build would scale with/without advantage.
Variant human/crossbow expert feat with a single hand crossbow (and free hand for loading ammunition) allows twin attacks (action/bonus action). Both gain dex modifier. My current preferred build.
Nullifies the need for squishy rogues to get close and makes advantage less important with the lvl 1 twinned attacks. Wonder how this build would scale with/without advantage.
Rogue damage baseline, Human variant/crossbow expert, hand x bow, only dexterity ASIs chosen.
At level 5, a pure rogue likely does a die of damage plus a modifier and 3d6 from Sneak Attack with an Attack action; about 5 dice worth of damage.
A martial class with Extra Attack will do 2 attacks that deal 1-2 dice and a modifier in damage with an Attack action; about 4-6 dice worth.
Sneak Attack scales up in a linear fashion, +1d6 at every odd rogue level. Martials often add additional modifiers to their damage rolls (rage, fighting styles, GWM/SS, spells, etc).
Rogues have a few things going for them. Receiving advantage on a single attack roll (Help action, Distracting Strike maneuver, etc) applies to the Rogue's whole Attack action. Any source of additional attacks (two-weapon fighting, CBE, haste, etc) improves the consistency of the class's damage, as only a single hit is needed to apply the whole Sneak Attack. A single attack as a reaction (attack of opportunity, Sentinel, etc) can also apply Sneak Attack outside of the Rogue's turn, which can effectively double their expected DPR. If one has access to weapon cantrips and doesn't mind foregoing TWF, booming blade and green flame blade are stronger than Attack actions.
Standard humans are simple and under-appreciated. Many of my friends say that +1 to every dump stat is poor design, but I'd like my characters to not be comparably weak, clumsy, uninformed and/or unlikable.
I would say they out-damage barbarians and are comparable to fighters. Rogues get a very big benefit from taking 5 levels in another class to get the secondary attack, simply because that gives two chances to land all that sneak attack damage (which rogues are prone to lose with a bad roll).
Mhm… rogues can only use sneak attack once per turn.
I would say they out-damage barbarians and are comparable to fighters. Rogues get a very big benefit from taking 5 levels in another class to get the secondary attack, simply because that gives two chances to land all that sneak attack damage (which rogues are prone to lose with a bad roll).
Mhm… rogues can only use sneak attack once per turn.
Quite a necro post.
Anyway I would think at least for a campaign a 5 level dip to get extra attack is not worth it. Your sneak attack with be doing either 2d6 or 3d6 less damage and you will get your rogue features MUCh later (e.g. evasion at level 12).
I could see a rogue 15 Fighter 5 working for a level 20 one shot where going from 10d6 to 8d6 is a smaller proportion of the damage (you also lose elusive, stroke of luck an ASI and your final subclass feature in exchange for a fighting style, second wind, action surgeand a sub class feature) but things will be fairly bad if you need to get their level by level.
In terms of damage those 5 levels to get an extra attack will nearly always be worth it. Let say you have a dex of 18 and a short sword.
1d6+4 + 3d6 (sneak attack) = 18 2d6+8 =15
So with no added considderations sneak attack is slightly better.
Now we should also factor in that if your ability score increases, the benefit of an extra attack also increase. The same goes for any carry-on damage such as a flaming sword and other variables.
On top of that again, extra attacks give you more chances to land sneak attack. In other words, if you already have some sneak attack, getting an extra attack will further empower that ability.
If one at low level have decided to go with a multiclass, I would suggest getting the extra attack asap and then start stacking sneak attack for a smoother gameplay. I have tried it the other way around (first rogue3, then ranger 5) and then level 5-7 was pretty rough.
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will an average human (+1 to all stats human, not the variant) rouge who starts at level 1 with an total dexterity score of 16 as they progress in levels deal more, less or an aproximately equal amount of average damage per round compared to an human fighter or barbarian who starts with 16 strength, assuming both humans use the best weapons available to them and that the players always decide to increase their strength or dexterity score whenever they gain an ability score increase instead of spending it on a feat, while also assuming that the rouge player will get of their sneak attack every round?
Or in other words is the rouge better or worse than most of the martial classes in terms of how much damage they can turn out each round, when not accounting for minmaxing on ether front and when ignoring the defensive and non combat skills of both classes?
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
In the games I've played, the overall damage has been comparable, but sneak attack has the disadvantage that it can only be against one target. This means a lot of damage can get wasted depending on enemy hp.
perfect, thank you
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I would say they out-damage barbarians and are comparable to fighters. Rogues get a very big benefit from taking 5 levels in another class to get the secondary attack, simply because that gives two chances to land all that sneak attack damage (which rogues are prone to lose with a bad roll).
Rogues also get really strong synergy with any party members who can force opportunity attack movement through Dissonant Whispers and the like since it doubles their damage output. This is because Sneak attack is only once per turn, rather than per round. Combine for even greater damage by grabbing Booming blade either via subclass, feat, or multiclassing.
This touches on a conversation I had with my DM recently. I play a Rogue, his opinion is Sneak Attack damage is too high.
Anyway, here is a Google spreadsheet that compares expected damage output by level for martial classes: 5e DPR Calculations. I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions from the data but hopefully you can see that a Rogue should at least be getting Sneak Attack every round in order to keep up with the basic damage assumptions of the game.
Basic assumptions I've used in calculating DPR:
actiuallty this is exactly what i wanted, thank you so very much for sharing this
however i think that it would be interesting to have a table for two weapon fighting for barbarian fighter and rouge since that will for the fighter give better damage per round in earlier levels and will makes rouges significantly more likely to land at least one sneak attack, yeah for many rouges it is more important to have an bonus action available to use cunning action, and for barbarians two weapon fighting presents more times for you to apply rage damage and more times to trigger brutal critical (but less extra damage when you do)
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I would save that the assumptions made do favor the rogue mainly for two reasons:
1. No consumable resources used.
The rogue has no consumable resources so this doesn't lower his DPR,
A fighter has action surge, how much it improves his stats depends on how many rounds of battle he has per short rest, a dungeaon crawl might see 3 fights of (say) 4-5 rounds but often there will only be one fight per SR. It would be interesting so see how much the fighter damage increases by if you allow one action surge per 10 rounds of combat.
A paladin's smites are a large proportion of his DPR, if you work on 20 rounds of combat per day, the paladin might not use all his slots smiting (castings non DPR spells or keeping a spare speel or two in reserve) sosay he goes through enough smites to fill his spell slots every 30 rounds.
2. Rogue damage assumes sneak attack a rogue always tries to get sneak attack but sometimes it does happen how much does that DPR go downif he can only get sneak attack 80% of the time.
Having said that there is more to a character's role in the party than DPR. Fighters, Paladins and Barbarians are generally better at taking damage than Rogues (bigger hit dice, heavy armor or resistance to damage due to rage etc) so a melee rogie is a bit of a glass cannon. Rogues do have other roles such as scouting stealthily and picking locks on the other hand Paladins make a great face.
Just a general observation I've made playing different rogues in two campaigns (separate group makeups too). The rogue comes in somewhere after the Paladin (burst smites) and fighters (using action surge). But the rogue has the virtue of having decent consistent damage and by far the most party utility.
Rogue subclasses can make you less squishy. I'm loving my swashbuckler!
Rogue damage baseline, TWF, short swords, only dexterity ASIs chosen. The +X.XX damage is expected damage against a foe with a reaction attack on another creatures turn, benefiting from sneak attack.
Lvl 1= 9.535, +6.35 with reaction
Lvl 3= 12.72, +8.625 with reaction
Lvl 5= 16.505, +11.5 with reaction
Lvl 7= 19.69, +13.775 with reaction
Lvl 9= 23.475, +16.65 with reaction
Lvl 11= 26.66, +18.925 with reaction
Lvl 13= 29.845, +21.2 with reaction
Lvl 15= 33.03, +23.475 with reaction
Lvl 17= 36.215, +25.75 with reaction
Lvl 19= 39.4, +28.025 with reaction
rogue damage calculations were said to be the Baseline of damage for 5e toward the beginning of the games development. I’m not sure if that design philosophy is still being used today. Interestingly a warlock with Eldritch blast/agonizing blast/Hex is within 1 point of DPR at every tier of gameplay. The rogue does start comfortably ahead at levels 1-4 though.
To maximize the Rogue damage potential, is it better to go with two light weapons like shortswords, or is a rapier the better choice. To me it seems like the two weapons allow for double the chance to hit, but at the loss of Cunning Action to get away.
Two shortswords are probably the better option. 1 average damage isn't a substitute for the second chance to actually hit with your attack. Of course that's sacrificing your bonus action, so only strike twice if you miss with the first one.
I'm currently playing Mighlo (Lvl 5) in one of my games. He's a lvl 4 Rogue (Swashbuckler) and a lvl 1 Fighter MC. It is always better to go with Two Weapon Fighting for a Rogue regardless of weapons because a Rogue's main source of damage output is sneak attack, and two chances to land your sneak attack is better than one. 1 D8 dmg dice really isn't much more than a D6 or even a D4 in the grand scheme of things when your sneak attack will be doing 1D6/2D6 etc... Also, if you land your sneak attack on your first attack it still leaves you the option of doing a cunning action. Although, the reason I love swashbuckler is because you can attack twice and still get out of dodge without needing to disengage.
I have Mighlo set up with 2 rapiers (Duel Wielder Feat) which also adds +1 to his AC and the Fighter's TWF fighting style which adds my +4 dmg bonus to my offhand weapon.
Variant human/crossbow expert feat with a single hand crossbow (and free hand for loading ammunition) allows twin attacks (action/bonus action). Both gain dex modifier. My current preferred build.
Nullifies the need for squishy rogues to get close and makes advantage less important with the lvl 1 twinned attacks. Wonder how this build would scale with/without advantage.
Rogue damage baseline, Human variant/crossbow expert, hand x bow, only dexterity ASIs chosen.
Lvl 1= 11.335, or 15.40875 with advantage.
Lvl 3= 14.52, or 19.215 with advantage.
Lvl 5= 18.905, or 24.7012 with advantage.
Lvl 7= 22.09, or 28.5075 with advantage.
Lvl 9= 26.475, or 33.99375 with advantage.
Lvl 11= 29.66, or 37.8 with advantage.
Lvl 13= 32.845, or 41.60624 with advantage.
Lvl 15= 36.03, or 45.4125 with advantage.
Lvl 17= 39.215, or 49.21875 with advantage.
Lvl 19= 42.4, or 53.025 with advantage.
Let's take a look at some numbers:
At level 5, a pure rogue likely does a die of damage plus a modifier and 3d6 from Sneak Attack with an Attack action; about 5 dice worth of damage.
A martial class with Extra Attack will do 2 attacks that deal 1-2 dice and a modifier in damage with an Attack action; about 4-6 dice worth.
Sneak Attack scales up in a linear fashion, +1d6 at every odd rogue level. Martials often add additional modifiers to their damage rolls (rage, fighting styles, GWM/SS, spells, etc).
Rogues have a few things going for them. Receiving advantage on a single attack roll (Help action, Distracting Strike maneuver, etc) applies to the Rogue's whole Attack action. Any source of additional attacks (two-weapon fighting, CBE, haste, etc) improves the consistency of the class's damage, as only a single hit is needed to apply the whole Sneak Attack. A single attack as a reaction (attack of opportunity, Sentinel, etc) can also apply Sneak Attack outside of the Rogue's turn, which can effectively double their expected DPR. If one has access to weapon cantrips and doesn't mind foregoing TWF, booming blade and green flame blade are stronger than Attack actions.
Standard humans are simple and under-appreciated. Many of my friends say that +1 to every dump stat is poor design, but I'd like my characters to not be comparably weak, clumsy, uninformed and/or unlikable.
I would say they out-damage barbarians and are comparable to fighters. Rogues get a very big benefit from taking 5 levels in another class to get the secondary attack, simply because that gives two chances to land all that sneak attack damage (which rogues are prone to lose with a bad roll).
Mhm… rogues can only use sneak attack once per turn.
Quite a necro post.
However in
Quite a necro post.
Anyway I would think at least for a campaign a 5 level dip to get extra attack is not worth it. Your sneak attack with be doing either 2d6 or 3d6 less damage and you will get your rogue features MUCh later (e.g. evasion at level 12).
I could see a rogue 15 Fighter 5 working for a level 20 one shot where going from 10d6 to 8d6 is a smaller proportion of the damage (you also lose elusive, stroke of luck an ASI and your final subclass feature in exchange for a fighting style, second wind, action surgeand a sub class feature) but things will be fairly bad if you need to get their level by level.
In terms of damage those 5 levels to get an extra attack will nearly always be worth it. Let say you have a dex of 18 and a short sword.
1d6+4 + 3d6 (sneak attack) = 18
2d6+8 =15
So with no added considderations sneak attack is slightly better.
Now we should also factor in that if your ability score increases, the benefit of an extra attack also increase. The same goes for any carry-on damage such as a flaming sword and other variables.
On top of that again, extra attacks give you more chances to land sneak attack. In other words, if you already have some sneak attack, getting an extra attack will further empower that ability.
If one at low level have decided to go with a multiclass, I would suggest getting the extra attack asap and then start stacking sneak attack for a smoother gameplay. I have tried it the other way around (first rogue3, then ranger 5) and then level 5-7 was pretty rough.