I'm coming up on level 4 with my arcane trickster rogue. I have 17 DEX and 15 INT. I'm looking at feats - fey touched, shadow touched and sharp shooter were strong options for me but think I'm dismissing them so I can increase my DEX score. I'm thinking either eleven accuracy or piercer but can't figure out the best one to go for. Any thoughts/advice would be appreciated.
Why not both? Take Piercer (DEX) now and then take Elven Accuracy (INT) later. I've never been a big fan of Sharpshooter or a Rogue mainly because the Rogue only gets 1 attack most of the time whereas feats like Sharpshooter and Great Weapon Master benefit from multiple attacks to maximize the damage potential.
Between a possible familiar and Steady Aim you will be feeding yourself advantage a lot. You have one attack and you're super sad when it misses. Elven Accuracy boosts your chance to hit by a sizeable chunk. Meanwhile, Piercer is just a small boost to your damage. I don't think it's close to be honest. I'd rather pick up fey-touched, shadow-touched, observant or skill expert to round up that 15 int at a later level.
I agree sharpshooter is not a major concern since you aren't focusing on volume of attacks. Probably better to switch between melee and ranged when cover is super annoying. With the mobility of a rogue this is easier to accomplish. Saving that ASI for more intelligence will be really nice as you level up and want your spell save DCs to remain dangerous.
Why not both? Take Piercer (DEX) now and then take Elven Accuracy (INT) later. I've never been a big fan of Sharpshooter or a Rogue mainly because the Rogue only gets 1 attack most of the time whereas feats like Sharpshooter and Great Weapon Master benefit from multiple attacks to maximize the damage potential.
Thanks for the thoughts. It's good thinking on needing to link the DEX increase to Piercer since I wouldn't be able to do an INT increase later with that. Ultimately I would like to take both but it's going to be a long wait to get the second one so it's mostly about figuring out which one first. Also a very good point on Sharpshooter.
Why not both? Take Piercer (DEX) now and then take Elven Accuracy (INT) later. I've never been a big fan of Sharpshooter or a Rogue mainly because the Rogue only gets 1 attack most of the time whereas feats like Sharpshooter and Great Weapon Master benefit from multiple attacks to maximize the damage potential.
Thanks for the thoughts. It's good thinking on needing to link the DEX increase to Piercer since I wouldn't be able to do an INT increase later with that. Ultimately I would like to take both but it's going to be a long wait to get the second one so it's mostly about figuring out which one first. Also a very good point on Sharpshooter.
Then I suggest Elven Accuracy (INT) now, rounding up your INT helps with your spell DC and with Steady Aim to provide advantage Elven Accuracy should more than make up the +1 to hit that you would get from rounding up DEX instead.
Meh, I really don't think Piercer is nearly as good as the attention it gets when people are considering builds would imply. Tasha's introduced some excellent half-feats, but I don't think piercer is one of them. Even slasher and crusher which are better really aren't that good. Compared to being able to use the same slot for Fey-Touched or Shadow-Touched for more spells (the arcane trickster definitely likes more spells), Piercer feels like small potatoes.
Skill expert could be fun too. Bump dex and add another proficiency and expertise. Good for the skill monkey aspect of rogues.
But if you are between the two, I would probably lean Piercer.
I already have a bunch of proficiencies and some expertise so it doesn't feel so necessary for me. Is there a particular reason you lean to Piercer?
I could be misreading the math here, but going from advantage to super-advantage isn't that great of an increase in your likelihood to hit. It probably comes out in the wash though vs the damage increase from piercer.
Although, rethinking, as an arcane trickster you may have some attacks that don't deal piercing damage and you would be able to use the elven accuracy with those as well as the normal rogue attacks.
I do agree with HZ above that something like shadow touched to round up your int would be pretty cool on a rogue. Free invisibility is always useful.
The Arcane Trickster in question would have a +6 to hit if they take Elven Accuracy to boost Dex at level 4. Let's put that up against 15 AC (the AC of the goblin in the monster manual):
+6 to hit/15 AC
With Advantage: 84% chance to hit
With Elven Advantage: 93.6 % chance to hit. + 9.6% chance to hit
Now let's bump up the AC:
+6 to hit/20 AC
With Advantage: 57.75% chance to hit
With Elven Advantage: 72.54% chance to hit. + 14.79% chance to hit
Not only does Elven Advantage provide a sizeable bonus to hit, but that bonus grows as you face enemies that are tougher to hit. You will be more likely to actually damage the enemies you really need to take out quickly.
You also have to consider the nature of the Rogue. All of their damage is tied up in one attack. You don't have a good chance of dealing at least some of your potential damage thanks to multiple attack rolls. It's all or nothing. I'd much rather be more likely to land my one big attack than boost the potential damage by a small amount. I haven't done the math, but you don't have to to see re-rolling a d8 once a turn and having a little extra damage on crits is not going to stack up.
Like I said, I really don't think it's close. Elven Accuracy is an incredible feat. Piercer is merely okay.
If anyone is interested, I used this fantastic damage calculator for my maths: damage calculator
The Arcane Trickster in question would have a +6 to hit if they take Elven Accuracy to boost Dex at level 4. Let's put that up against 15 AC (the AC of the goblin in the monster manual):
+6 to hit/15 AC
With Advantage: 84% chance to hit
With Elven Advantage: 93.6 % chance to hit. + 9.6% chance to hit
Now let's bump up the AC:
+6 to hit/20 AC
With Advantage: 57.75% chance to hit
With Elven Advantage: 72.54% chance to hit. + 14.79% chance to hit
Not only does Elven Advantage provide a sizeable bonus to hit, but that bonus grows as you face enemies that are tougher to hit. You will be more likely to actually damage the enemies you really need to take out quickly.
You also have to consider the nature of the Rogue. All of their damage is tied up in one attack. You don't have a good chance of dealing at least some of your potential damage thanks to multiple attack rolls. It's all or nothing. I'd much rather be more likely to land my one big attack than boost the potential damage by a small amount. I haven't done the math, but you don't have to to see re-rolling a d8 once a turn and having a little extra damage on crits is not going to stack up.
Like I said, I really don't think it's close. Elven Accuracy is an incredible feat. Piercer is merely okay.
If anyone is interested, I used this fantastic damage calculator for my maths: damage calculator
It's interesting, elven accuracy does work out to be better. But you have to account for the fact that the extra damage you get with piercer will offset a few of your misses. I just overestimated by how much.
Making these assumptions: d8 weapon, 2d6 sneak attack, double dice on critical, AC 15, +6 to hit, reroll a 1 or 2 (pick the d8 first if more than one) - elven accuracy is better, but on average only by about 1 point of damage.
If you up it to AC 20, though, that's where elven accuracy shines. With the higher AC your average damage output with elven accuracy is 7.5 points higher.
I didn't try to figure out using a better strategy, rerolling 3s, or more sneak attack dice. But I can't imagine that changes the overall outcome much.
It's interesting, elven accuracy does work out to be better. But you have to account for the fact that the extra damage you get with piercer will offset a few of your misses. I just overestimated by how much.
DPR comparisons between higher damage, but lower hit chance attacks and lower damage, higher hit chance attacks fail to paint a complete picture. They do not account for wasted DPR, or overkill.
Those 15 AC goblins? They have 7 hp. The Elven Accuracy AT can kill them just fine in one hit and have a significantly better chance of doing so. Meanwhile the Piercer AT has wasted their damage boost and has a not-insignificant chance of taking two turns to kill the little bugger.
This applies to plenty of low HP enemies, or anyone that's been significantly weakened by chip shots and the AT is looking to finish off.
On top of this, the Elven Accuracy AT has a +5% chance to land a critical. I don't think it's nearly as close as you think mcapsam.
While I'm not going to go so far as say Elven Accuracy is the best feat in the game, I can certainly agree with the sentiment. It lands in my top 10 easy. Most likely top 5. Piercer on the other hand, just doesn't stack up. I would only really consider it on a build that doesn't qualify for elven accuracy for one reason or another.
Piercer is not as bad as you make it sound. Don't forget that you don't have to raise DEX, it can also raise STR. I could see a crit fishing Polearm Barb taking it and using a Pike. It could even be a Elven Barb :P
Like I said, I really don't think it's close. Elven Accuracy is an incredible feat. Piercer is merely okay.
I stand by that statement.
Also the builds you're talking about are exactly where I would consider Piercer. I said I would consider it on builds that do not qualify for Elven Accuracy for one reason or another. A crit-fishing Pike wielder is exactly that kind of build.
I don't think it's nearly as close as you think mcapsam.
*Thought.
I agree, and for the additional reasons you mentioned.
Personally, and as I said before, if I had to boost dex I would probably go skill expert. I'm not a fan of the feats that just change the player mechanics instead of the character mechanics (if that makes sense) and gaining expertise feels to me like the character evolving to be able to do something new.
Elven Accuracy for all the reasons mentioned, plus the increased chance to crit. Sneak attack is all dice, so you benefit greatly from crits. If you like the Shadowblade spell, that’s even more dice, plus it’s psychic damage so Piercer wouldn’t apply.
Thanks again everyone, this has been really useful and I do enjoy some good stats maths so that’s helped too. I see what you’re saying @mcapsam about feeling like a character evolving. That’s partly why I’m asking because I like to think ahead and build it into my character. For instance Asan elf I only need 4 hours for a long rest so while the rest of the party are sleeping for the other 4 hours I’ll be training with my shortbow and practicing for the new spell I’ll take when I level up so that it’s not just an overnight thing. In personally think feats are great because I enjoy building them into my character development,
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I'm coming up on level 4 with my arcane trickster rogue. I have 17 DEX and 15 INT. I'm looking at feats - fey touched, shadow touched and sharp shooter were strong options for me but think I'm dismissing them so I can increase my DEX score. I'm thinking either eleven accuracy or piercer but can't figure out the best one to go for. Any thoughts/advice would be appreciated.
Why not both? Take Piercer (DEX) now and then take Elven Accuracy (INT) later. I've never been a big fan of Sharpshooter or a Rogue mainly because the Rogue only gets 1 attack most of the time whereas feats like Sharpshooter and Great Weapon Master benefit from multiple attacks to maximize the damage potential.
Skill expert could be fun too. Bump dex and add another proficiency and expertise. Good for the skill monkey aspect of rogues.
But if you are between the two, I would probably lean Piercer.
Elven Accuracy for sure.
Between a possible familiar and Steady Aim you will be feeding yourself advantage a lot. You have one attack and you're super sad when it misses. Elven Accuracy boosts your chance to hit by a sizeable chunk. Meanwhile, Piercer is just a small boost to your damage. I don't think it's close to be honest. I'd rather pick up fey-touched, shadow-touched, observant or skill expert to round up that 15 int at a later level.
I agree sharpshooter is not a major concern since you aren't focusing on volume of attacks. Probably better to switch between melee and ranged when cover is super annoying. With the mobility of a rogue this is easier to accomplish. Saving that ASI for more intelligence will be really nice as you level up and want your spell save DCs to remain dangerous.
Thanks for the thoughts. It's good thinking on needing to link the DEX increase to Piercer since I wouldn't be able to do an INT increase later with that. Ultimately I would like to take both but it's going to be a long wait to get the second one so it's mostly about figuring out which one first. Also a very good point on Sharpshooter.
I already have a bunch of proficiencies and some expertise so it doesn't feel so necessary for me. Is there a particular reason you lean to Piercer?
Then I suggest Elven Accuracy (INT) now, rounding up your INT helps with your spell DC and with Steady Aim to provide advantage Elven Accuracy should more than make up the +1 to hit that you would get from rounding up DEX instead.
Meh, I really don't think Piercer is nearly as good as the attention it gets when people are considering builds would imply. Tasha's introduced some excellent half-feats, but I don't think piercer is one of them. Even slasher and crusher which are better really aren't that good. Compared to being able to use the same slot for Fey-Touched or Shadow-Touched for more spells (the arcane trickster definitely likes more spells), Piercer feels like small potatoes.
I could be misreading the math here, but going from advantage to super-advantage isn't that great of an increase in your likelihood to hit. It probably comes out in the wash though vs the damage increase from piercer.
Although, rethinking, as an arcane trickster you may have some attacks that don't deal piercing damage and you would be able to use the elven accuracy with those as well as the normal rogue attacks.
I do agree with HZ above that something like shadow touched to round up your int would be pretty cool on a rogue. Free invisibility is always useful.
The Arcane Trickster in question would have a +6 to hit if they take Elven Accuracy to boost Dex at level 4. Let's put that up against 15 AC (the AC of the goblin in the monster manual):
+6 to hit/15 AC
With Advantage: 84% chance to hit
With Elven Advantage: 93.6 % chance to hit. + 9.6% chance to hit
Now let's bump up the AC:
+6 to hit/20 AC
With Advantage: 57.75% chance to hit
With Elven Advantage: 72.54% chance to hit. + 14.79% chance to hit
Not only does Elven Advantage provide a sizeable bonus to hit, but that bonus grows as you face enemies that are tougher to hit. You will be more likely to actually damage the enemies you really need to take out quickly.
You also have to consider the nature of the Rogue. All of their damage is tied up in one attack. You don't have a good chance of dealing at least some of your potential damage thanks to multiple attack rolls. It's all or nothing. I'd much rather be more likely to land my one big attack than boost the potential damage by a small amount. I haven't done the math, but you don't have to to see re-rolling a d8 once a turn and having a little extra damage on crits is not going to stack up.
Like I said, I really don't think it's close. Elven Accuracy is an incredible feat. Piercer is merely okay.
If anyone is interested, I used this fantastic damage calculator for my maths: damage calculator
It's interesting, elven accuracy does work out to be better. But you have to account for the fact that the extra damage you get with piercer will offset a few of your misses. I just overestimated by how much.
Making these assumptions: d8 weapon, 2d6 sneak attack, double dice on critical, AC 15, +6 to hit, reroll a 1 or 2 (pick the d8 first if more than one) - elven accuracy is better, but on average only by about 1 point of damage.
If you up it to AC 20, though, that's where elven accuracy shines. With the higher AC your average damage output with elven accuracy is 7.5 points higher.
I didn't try to figure out using a better strategy, rerolling 3s, or more sneak attack dice. But I can't imagine that changes the overall outcome much.
I think Elven Accuracy is the best feat in the game right now.
DPR comparisons between higher damage, but lower hit chance attacks and lower damage, higher hit chance attacks fail to paint a complete picture. They do not account for wasted DPR, or overkill.
Those 15 AC goblins? They have 7 hp. The Elven Accuracy AT can kill them just fine in one hit and have a significantly better chance of doing so. Meanwhile the Piercer AT has wasted their damage boost and has a not-insignificant chance of taking two turns to kill the little bugger.
This applies to plenty of low HP enemies, or anyone that's been significantly weakened by chip shots and the AT is looking to finish off.
On top of this, the Elven Accuracy AT has a +5% chance to land a critical. I don't think it's nearly as close as you think mcapsam.
While I'm not going to go so far as say Elven Accuracy is the best feat in the game, I can certainly agree with the sentiment. It lands in my top 10 easy. Most likely top 5. Piercer on the other hand, just doesn't stack up. I would only really consider it on a build that doesn't qualify for elven accuracy for one reason or another.
Piercer is not as bad as you make it sound. Don't forget that you don't have to raise DEX, it can also raise STR. I could see a crit fishing Polearm Barb taking it and using a Pike. It could even be a Elven Barb :P
I stand by that statement.
Also the builds you're talking about are exactly where I would consider Piercer. I said I would consider it on builds that do not qualify for Elven Accuracy for one reason or another. A crit-fishing Pike wielder is exactly that kind of build.
*Thought.
I agree, and for the additional reasons you mentioned.
Personally, and as I said before, if I had to boost dex I would probably go skill expert. I'm not a fan of the feats that just change the player mechanics instead of the character mechanics (if that makes sense) and gaining expertise feels to me like the character evolving to be able to do something new.
Elven Accuracy for all the reasons mentioned, plus the increased chance to crit. Sneak attack is all dice, so you benefit greatly from crits. If you like the Shadowblade spell, that’s even more dice, plus it’s psychic damage so Piercer wouldn’t apply.
Thanks again everyone, this has been really useful and I do enjoy some good stats maths so that’s helped too. I see what you’re saying @mcapsam about feeling like a character evolving. That’s partly why I’m asking because I like to think ahead and build it into my character. For instance Asan elf I only need 4 hours for a long rest so while the rest of the party are sleeping for the other 4 hours I’ll be training with my shortbow and practicing for the new spell I’ll take when I level up so that it’s not just an overnight thing. In personally think feats are great because I enjoy building them into my character development,