Does anyone else find the relationship between sorcery points and spells slots to be...clunky?
My suggestion is one single pool of points, similar to the spell points variant. This would be a total number of points equal to the amount of spell levels available plus the amount of sorcery points available. For instance, a level three sorcerer has 3 sorcery points and 8 spell levels (four 1st level and two 2nd levels), which would equal out to 11 spell points.
Now, I personally believe that sorcerers get shafted in the spells known department, and I personally believe they should be able to cast more spells in a day in order to make up for it. Specialize more, but do more of it. Therefore, this is where I vary from the spell point variant:
Casting spells is a 1:1 ratio.
A 1st level spell costs 1 point, 2nd level costs 2 points, etc. This would replace the RAW conversion costs (1st level is 2 points, 2nd level is 3 points, 3rd level is 5 points, etc.) and would allow this to be a viable option past 5th level. It would streamline the process and be less restrictive on a process that is, ultimately, the one thing sorcerers are meant to do well.
Then add on the appropriate amount of points for whatever metamagic you're adding to it, and voila. I genuinely believe this would make sorcerers more viable, condense a lot of the mechanics into an easier to use form, and allow for more flexibility of casting without penalizing the sorcerer for doing the one thing it's good at: casting spells.
I think a 1:1 ratio could lead to a bit of unbalanced play as people could more easily convert all their lower level spell slots to higher level ones, so I'm fine with it the way it is.
I like the idea of sorcerers defaulting to spell points, it would help make them feel a bit more unique. And being able to cast more spells in a day would also help balance them against wizards. Though the added spells of aberrant mind and clockwork soul if applied to the rest of the subclasses would do a good job of that too.
I don't actually see a problem with the ability to cast a few high level spells and no low level spells. That's the very nature of the versatility that I'm talking about. The trade off is that you don't have low level slots available for things like shield/silvery barbs, etc. There are plenty of spells at low level that can't be justified with a higher level slot, such as protection from evil that don't scale. Burning through all your resources to get off a few fireballs might give you a lot of blasting power, but the trade-off is that you're essentially useless the rest of the day. The versatility aspect here is that some days that might be useful, and some days it won't. IMO, that's the beauty of this class, and why it is distinct as a choice over Wizard.
Edit: I also think this ability to blow it all at once when you need to plays into the flavor of a sorcerer who, by nature, channels from within.
I like the idea overall. It would make them versatile and unique. As well as feeling somewhere between Warlocks and Wizards.
I do think it would be a bit hard to balance between slots and metamagic points. They could very easily end up in a simliar case to Monk Ki Points where there isn't enough oomph to do what you do.
I do think spell poitns would be a neat method overall for unique versions. I would like the unique focus between wizard, sorcerer, warlock,
I don't mind the idea that it costs more sorcerer points to create a spell slot than you would get from converting that same spell slot into sorcerer points. But I also wouldn't be opposed to the idea of sorcerers just working from a pool of spell/sorcerer points. I think the biggest issue would be how you handle multiclassing. Would sorcerers have their own unique class feature for using magic, like Warlocks do with Pact Magic? What would happen if someone had levels in both sorcerer and bard, for example?
I would go straight points as you say and make it a discrete feature from spellcasting, similar to pact magic. I would still let other classes’ spell slots be turned into points though. It represents the versatility of using what power you have available and bending it to your needs.
Would sorcerers have their own unique class feature for using magic, like Warlocks do with Pact Magic? What would happen if someone had levels in both sorcerer and bard, for example?
In my opinion, the same as what happens when someone has levels in Warlock and Bard.
I think it would be too imba when you could transfer sorcery points and spell slots back and forth all day. There should be a little sacrifice. So imho creating a spell slot should cost sorcery points worth the level of that spell +1. Level 1 spell slot cost 2 points, level 2 costs 3 and so on. Now it is +2 for higher levels. You may should also be able to create spell slots higher than lvl 5. Maybe lvl 7? That would give you a slight advantage over wizards and druids who can create slots with arcane/natural recovery up to lvl 5.
In earlier versions wizards could know more spells but couldn´t cast them as often as sorcerers. That was the major trade off between the two classes. Now wizards know more spells and can cast their spells as often as sorcerers. Even more with arcane recovery. Sorcerer needs a small buff to cast more spells while still being able to use meta magic.
I also like the idea of having sorcery points equal to your level+ CHA modifier or proficiency bonus.
Maybe the problem is more the pool you need to draw on for sorc points? I mean, if you wanna get two level 5's without burning another spell/MMA you need to be level 14. A sizable chunk of games are over by that point. Maybe you could get a bonus point every 5 levels? That way you'd have a larger pool to draw on without really unbalancing the class.
I for one like it and I have done something like it in the past. When I did it I calulated the spell point per level by converting the spell as per the optional rule and added the other points on top. The biggest issue came (only got to level 5) was not pushing all the points to the big spell but using the level 1 almost as cantrips.
As for multi classing I would just play it like a warlock does and have it sepret so yes if you multi class Palading/ soc / warlock you will be able to cast a ton of low level spell a day.
I don't understand why that's a problem. It's resource dependent, no matter how you use it. Every silvery barbs cast is a guiding bolt/chaos bolt/etc. that isn't being cast.
I don't understand why that's a problem. It's resource dependent, no matter how you use it. Every silvery barbs cast is a guiding bolt/chaos bolt/etc. that isn't being cast.
Resource dependent is one thing. The amount of action economy it grants is another. Every silvery barb cast is not another spell not cast, because it's a reaction, not an action. The amount of value it gives for a level 1 slot is insane and scales perfectly. Other level 1 spells like the damage ones you mentioned aren't even worth casting past level 4 because cantrips do more damage.
If you were able to just cast slivery barbs every round with no cost to converting spell slots it will it is easily the best use of spell points.
The conversion rate also prevents warlock/sorcerer multiclass from being a huge problem. The sorcery points puts a limit on how the pact slots can be exchanged for slots/points.
This multiclass could just spam slivery barbs while having 2 level of warlock getting agonizing blast and hex, so still putting out good damage while never needing to spend anything other than 1st level slots.
I know this is a specific example but what I'm trying to show is that something like this can be abused pretty bad.
If the sorcerer has no spell slots why would they have a feature that let's them convert spell slots to sorcery points. Your point is irrelevant cause that feature wouldn't exist.
I assumed it was pretty obvious that this method would replace that mechanic, but I suppose I should have explicitly stated it for those without context reading skills.
EDIT: I reread my original post and I did talk about this. You just didn't read it.
I really don't see this as a problem. If this is the way that the player chooses to prioritize their resources expenditure against all other options, that's cool. They sacrifice the ability to use those resources on other things, and that's fine too. I currently play a support character who uses basically all her spell slots on silvery barbs and cantrips on her turn and it works out fine.
Does anyone else find the relationship between sorcery points and spells slots to be...clunky?
My suggestion is one single pool of points, similar to the spell points variant. This would be a total number of points equal to the amount of spell levels available plus the amount of sorcery points available. For instance, a level three sorcerer has 3 sorcery points and 8 spell levels (four 1st level and two 2nd levels), which would equal out to 11 spell points.
Now, I personally believe that sorcerers get shafted in the spells known department, and I personally believe they should be able to cast more spells in a day in order to make up for it. Specialize more, but do more of it. Therefore, this is where I vary from the spell point variant:
Casting spells is a 1:1 ratio.
A 1st level spell costs 1 point, 2nd level costs 2 points, etc. This would replace the RAW conversion costs (1st level is 2 points, 2nd level is 3 points, 3rd level is 5 points, etc.) and would allow this to be a viable option past 5th level. It would streamline the process and be less restrictive on a process that is, ultimately, the one thing sorcerers are meant to do well.
Then add on the appropriate amount of points for whatever metamagic you're adding to it, and voila. I genuinely believe this would make sorcerers more viable, condense a lot of the mechanics into an easier to use form, and allow for more flexibility of casting without penalizing the sorcerer for doing the one thing it's good at: casting spells.
I think a 1:1 ratio could lead to a bit of unbalanced play as people could more easily convert all their lower level spell slots to higher level ones, so I'm fine with it the way it is.
I like the idea of sorcerers defaulting to spell points, it would help make them feel a bit more unique. And being able to cast more spells in a day would also help balance them against wizards. Though the added spells of aberrant mind and clockwork soul if applied to the rest of the subclasses would do a good job of that too.
I don't actually see a problem with the ability to cast a few high level spells and no low level spells. That's the very nature of the versatility that I'm talking about. The trade off is that you don't have low level slots available for things like shield/silvery barbs, etc. There are plenty of spells at low level that can't be justified with a higher level slot, such as protection from evil that don't scale. Burning through all your resources to get off a few fireballs might give you a lot of blasting power, but the trade-off is that you're essentially useless the rest of the day. The versatility aspect here is that some days that might be useful, and some days it won't. IMO, that's the beauty of this class, and why it is distinct as a choice over Wizard.
Edit: I also think this ability to blow it all at once when you need to plays into the flavor of a sorcerer who, by nature, channels from within.
I like the idea overall. It would make them versatile and unique. As well as feeling somewhere between Warlocks and Wizards.
I do think it would be a bit hard to balance between slots and metamagic points. They could very easily end up in a simliar case to Monk Ki Points where there isn't enough oomph to do what you do.
I do think spell poitns would be a neat method overall for unique versions. I would like the unique focus between wizard, sorcerer, warlock,
This isn't personally the way I would go about fixing the sorcerer, but in terms of small scale foxes this is among the better ideas I've heard.
I don't mind the idea that it costs more sorcerer points to create a spell slot than you would get from converting that same spell slot into sorcerer points. But I also wouldn't be opposed to the idea of sorcerers just working from a pool of spell/sorcerer points. I think the biggest issue would be how you handle multiclassing. Would sorcerers have their own unique class feature for using magic, like Warlocks do with Pact Magic? What would happen if someone had levels in both sorcerer and bard, for example?
I would go straight points as you say and make it a discrete feature from spellcasting, similar to pact magic. I would still let other classes’ spell slots be turned into points though. It represents the versatility of using what power you have available and bending it to your needs.
In my opinion, the same as what happens when someone has levels in Warlock and Bard.
I think it would be too imba when you could transfer sorcery points and spell slots back and forth all day. There should be a little sacrifice. So imho creating a spell slot should cost sorcery points worth the level of that spell +1. Level 1 spell slot cost 2 points, level 2 costs 3 and so on. Now it is +2 for higher levels. You may should also be able to create spell slots higher than lvl 5. Maybe lvl 7? That would give you a slight advantage over wizards and druids who can create slots with arcane/natural recovery up to lvl 5.
In earlier versions wizards could know more spells but couldn´t cast them as often as sorcerers. That was the major trade off between the two classes. Now wizards know more spells and can cast their spells as often as sorcerers. Even more with arcane recovery. Sorcerer needs a small buff to cast more spells while still being able to use meta magic.
I also like the idea of having sorcery points equal to your level+ CHA modifier or proficiency bonus.
Maybe the problem is more the pool you need to draw on for sorc points? I mean, if you wanna get two level 5's without burning another spell/MMA you need to be level 14. A sizable chunk of games are over by that point. Maybe you could get a bonus point every 5 levels? That way you'd have a larger pool to draw on without really unbalancing the class.
I for one like it and I have done something like it in the past. When I did it I calulated the spell point per level by converting the spell as per the optional rule and added the other points on top. The biggest issue came (only got to level 5) was not pushing all the points to the big spell but using the level 1 almost as cantrips.
As for multi classing I would just play it like a warlock does and have it sepret so yes if you multi class Palading/ soc / warlock you will be able to cast a ton of low level spell a day.
I spell Goodly.
This could be abused
Just spamming sliver barbs every round for example
I don't understand why that's a problem. It's resource dependent, no matter how you use it. Every silvery barbs cast is a guiding bolt/chaos bolt/etc. that isn't being cast.
Resource dependent is one thing. The amount of action economy it grants is another.
Every silvery barb cast is not another spell not cast, because it's a reaction, not an action.
The amount of value it gives for a level 1 slot is insane and scales perfectly. Other level 1 spells like the damage ones you mentioned aren't even worth casting past level 4 because cantrips do more damage.
If you were able to just cast slivery barbs every round with no cost to converting spell slots it will it is easily the best use of spell points.
The conversion rate also prevents warlock/sorcerer multiclass from being a huge problem. The sorcery points puts a limit on how the pact slots can be exchanged for slots/points.
This multiclass could just spam slivery barbs while having 2 level of warlock getting agonizing blast and hex, so still putting out good damage while never needing to spend anything other than 1st level slots.
I know this is a specific example but what I'm trying to show is that something like this can be abused pretty bad.
If the sorcerer has no spell slots why would they have a feature that let's them convert spell slots to sorcery points. Your point is irrelevant cause that feature wouldn't exist.
I assumed it was pretty obvious that this method would replace that mechanic, but I suppose I should have explicitly stated it for those without context reading skills.
EDIT: I reread my original post and I did talk about this. You just didn't read it.
Just realised this is a reply to my comment, but I think we're making the same point so I'm not sure why.
I thought you were responding to the original post. Sorry. (:
I really don't see this as a problem. If this is the way that the player chooses to prioritize their resources expenditure against all other options, that's cool. They sacrifice the ability to use those resources on other things, and that's fine too. I currently play a support character who uses basically all her spell slots on silvery barbs and cantrips on her turn and it works out fine.
Ahh fair enough.