I'm a 6th level sorcerer in my campaign, and my favorite combination of Metamagic is Twinned Spell Fireball, but my DM genuinely hates it because it essentially one shots everything. It could just be a problem with encounter building, but I need opinions. Is it an overpowered combination?
One creature is targeted, but it explodes outwardly, with the potential to hit multiple because of the radius. It doesn't target multiple creatures, the radius coming from the targeted point can hit multiple.
One creature is targeted, but it explodes outwardly, with the potential to hit multiple because of the radius. It doesn't target multiple creatures, the radius coming from the targeted point can hit multiple.
Fireball doesn’t target a creature at all. It explodes at a point you choose within range. It is not eligible for twinning.
The wording of twin spell and fireball make them incompatible across the board. Period! Fireball only can be used on spells that target a single creature. Fireball targets an area in space, if it's occupied by a creature(s) that doesn't mean that the spell is targeting a creature/creatures. Fireball is an AOE, area of effect, spell, emphasis in this case on the area. If a spell CAN affect more than 1 creature with its casting than it's not eligible for twinning. Thats why you can't twin magic missile even if you only target 1 creature with all the initial missiles, it has the potential to target more than 1 creature. Eldritch blast is also not eligible for twinning after it gets its second beam.
What would make it ineligible for twinning in that case
The wording for twinning is as follows:
Twinned Spell
When you cast a spell that targets only one creature and doesn’t have a range of self, you can spend a number of sorcery points equal to the spell’s level to target a second creature in range with the same spell (1 sorcery point if the spell is a cantrip).
To be eligible, a spell must be incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell’s current level. For example, magic missile and scorching ray aren’t eligible, but ray of frost and chromatic orb are.
Fireball on the other hand:
A bright streak flashes from your pointing finger to a point you choose within range and then blossoms with a low roar into an explosion of flame. Each creature in a 20-foot-radius sphere centered on that point must make a Dexterity saving throw. A target takes 8d6 fire damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
The fire spreads around corners. It ignites flammable objects in the area that aren't being worn or carried.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, the damage increases by 1d6 for each slot level above 3rd.
Fireball does not target a creature, therefore it cannot be twinned.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
My question is now that you definitively know (by reading the RAW) that fireball is not eligible for twinning, will you tell the DM or keep doing it? :)
As for the original question it's not just an overpowered combination, it's an illegal combination. So it's not a problem with encounter building at all, it's a problem with rules application.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
BTW, If you are a divine soul soul sorc, guiding bolt is a good twinned option. Hit two targets (with only one metamagic point) and next person to attack them gets advantage,
I wanted to clear a couple things up. I've stopped doing it, for two main reasons. One, because even though I'm not quite sure I see eye to eye with some of your explanations, it still feels disingenuous to use it either way, and two, because my DM straight up hates up.
One, because even though I'm not quite sure I see eye to eye with some of your explanations
They're called "rules". Twinning fireball is against the rules
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
There may be exceptions that I'm not aware of, but by definition and clarified by various rules, area-of-effect spells are able to affect more than a single creature. Thus, AoE spells such as Fireball cannot be twinned.
I mean, I copy/pasted the text of the rule. I'm not sure what there is to disagree with.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Just to clear up any lingering ambiguity, let's check Fireball's description:
A bright streak flashes from your pointing finger to a point you choose within range and then blossoms with a low roar into an explosion of flame. Each creature in a 20-foot-radius sphere centered on that point must make a Dexterity saving throw. A target takes 8d6 fire damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
Notice how it does not say that it targets a single creature anywhere in the description. It targets a point, and has an effect that hits everything within 20 feet of that point. Therefore, because a point is not a creature and because the spell's effects can be applied to more than one creature with a single casting, it cannot be twinned.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Seems reasonable to assume that anything with an area of effect can't be twinned, and what they should've written was something closer to "you cannot twin spells that can affect more than one creature". Ironically, here, their attempt at precise language failed them, because they didn't think it through far enough.
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I'm a 6th level sorcerer in my campaign, and my favorite combination of Metamagic is Twinned Spell Fireball, but my DM genuinely hates it because it essentially one shots everything. It could just be a problem with encounter building, but I need opinions. Is it an overpowered combination?
"When you cast a spell that targets only one creature"
Fireball in no way fits that description. There are spells for which it's ambiguous, but not this one.
One creature is targeted, but it explodes outwardly, with the potential to hit multiple because of the radius. It doesn't target multiple creatures, the radius coming from the targeted point can hit multiple.
Fireball doesn’t target a creature at all. It explodes at a point you choose within range. It is not eligible for twinning.
What would make it ineligible for twinning in that case
The wording of twin spell and fireball make them incompatible across the board. Period! Fireball only can be used on spells that target a single creature. Fireball targets an area in space, if it's occupied by a creature(s) that doesn't mean that the spell is targeting a creature/creatures. Fireball is an AOE, area of effect, spell, emphasis in this case on the area. If a spell CAN affect more than 1 creature with its casting than it's not eligible for twinning. Thats why you can't twin magic missile even if you only target 1 creature with all the initial missiles, it has the potential to target more than 1 creature. Eldritch blast is also not eligible for twinning after it gets its second beam.
The wording for twinning is as follows:
Twinned Spell
When you cast a spell that targets only one creature and doesn’t have a range of self, you can spend a number of sorcery points equal to the spell’s level to target a second creature in range with the same spell (1 sorcery point if the spell is a cantrip).
To be eligible, a spell must be incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell’s current level. For example, magic missile and scorching ray aren’t eligible, but ray of frost and chromatic orb are.
Fireball on the other hand:
A bright streak flashes from your pointing finger to a point you choose within range and then blossoms with a low roar into an explosion of flame. Each creature in a 20-foot-radius sphere centered on that point must make a Dexterity saving throw. A target takes 8d6 fire damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
The fire spreads around corners. It ignites flammable objects in the area that aren't being worn or carried.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, the damage increases by 1d6 for each slot level above 3rd.
Fireball does not target a creature, therefore it cannot be twinned.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
My question is now that you definitively know (by reading the RAW) that fireball is not eligible for twinning, will you tell the DM or keep doing it? :)
Food, Scifi/fantasy, anime, DND 5E and OSR geek.
As for the original question it's not just an overpowered combination, it's an illegal combination. So it's not a problem with encounter building at all, it's a problem with rules application.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
BTW, If you are a divine soul soul sorc, guiding bolt is a good twinned option. Hit two targets (with only one metamagic point) and next person to attack them gets advantage,
Food, Scifi/fantasy, anime, DND 5E and OSR geek.
I wanted to clear a couple things up. I've stopped doing it, for two main reasons. One, because even though I'm not quite sure I see eye to eye with some of your explanations, it still feels disingenuous to use it either way, and two, because my DM straight up hates up.
They're called "rules". Twinning fireball is against the rules
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
There may be exceptions that I'm not aware of, but by definition and clarified by various rules, area-of-effect spells are able to affect more than a single creature. Thus, AoE spells such as Fireball cannot be twinned.
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I mean, I copy/pasted the text of the rule. I'm not sure what there is to disagree with.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Just to clear up any lingering ambiguity, let's check Fireball's description:
Notice how it does not say that it targets a single creature anywhere in the description. It targets a point, and has an effect that hits everything within 20 feet of that point. Therefore, because a point is not a creature and because the spell's effects can be applied to more than one creature with a single casting, it cannot be twinned.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Can Toll The Dead be Twinned?
Yes Toll the Dead is a spell that targets only one creature and doesn’t have a range of self so it can be.
Ice Knife can be twinned, correct?
Debatable RAW Ice Knife target one creature but affect more than one. While not official ruling, Dev said on Twitter it can't be Twinned.
Seems reasonable to assume that anything with an area of effect can't be twinned, and what they should've written was something closer to "you cannot twin spells that can affect more than one creature". Ironically, here, their attempt at precise language failed them, because they didn't think it through far enough.